UO and EQ both had/have their upsides and downsides, good points and bad points.
However, taking everything into consideration, I believe I favor the overall concept of UO over EQ.
Necroing this one again since it's been going since 2006.
Here's my thought as someone that has played UO from 1999-2024 and a little bit of EQ sprinkled in there.
The original concept of UO was so unique at the time and can still be one of the most immersive experience in online gaming, but a lot has changed. Playing a bit of P1999, the official progression servers and modern/live EQ I can officially say that EQ in 2024 is in a much better place that UO is and has been for awhile.
As we all know MMO's change with time, but what's important to me is the amount of support that these titles receive through time. UO hasn't been developed on since about 2015, almost a decade. EQ on the other hand has a team that is fully behind the product and is developing content on a yearly basis. They even spent the money and time to create the classic progression experience. Something that UO players have been begging for on the official game (not including freeshards, they come and go) since the early 2000's.
So while I don't have anywhere near the amount of time in EQ that I do UO, I appreciate where EQ is today versus UO.
I love UO, but the version of UO that I love has been gone since about 2003 and there's really no way to play that again, officially. And the scripting has gotten so out of hand in UO that if we were able to play that experience again, it would be completely different from the original.
I honestly cherish being there when UO was new.
UO was so much more "alive" than anything since. They had so many things you could do, and player interactions, of the good kind, were great. It was in the secret sauce.
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
Those Rose Tinted Glasses can often be blinders for many.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
I understand, and I don't mean these words as a challenge to you, personally. But did you try to find a guild of good players? They were many. They also had connections to other good guilds. Or, if you found a bank where members of such guilds and their associated guilds, would do their banking, you could hang out there and make connections, without actually joining a guild.
I went through the same thing when I started. But then I found a great guild who were protectors of a valley (Orc Valley, south of Yew and the crossroads), Anti-PK and Looter, and I started helping them, got invited to join, and things really turned around for me. They had alliances with a few other great guilds, too, and I made some friends with them also. They were part of the extensive RP community, and I made friends there too. They were also involved into all the events, GM and Player run events. So there were a lot of things to do and people to meet.
Because of that, I knew the players who started the fantastic Museum of Memories, Kazola's Tavern, Yew Town Council, the Fishing Council of Britannia, and many others.
I even had the opportunity to get a laugh from Lord British himself when he placed a special plaque on the wall at Kazola's Tavern. The scene was crowded, and very laggy. I went into the Tavern where Garriott (LB) was with his special character that looked like his RL self, walking step by slow step (due to heavy lag), and as I passed in front of the Lord British I said "Excuse me, I seem to have sprained my lag." LB gave out a "haha".
UO, despite the issues, was one hell of a fun game, and much more "alive", as I said.
The whole point is, of you have a game that fosters the social like UO (and very few others), then it becomes "what you make of it." Most games don't foster this, by their very design.
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
This reads like its from someone who didn't actually play Ultima Online.
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
This reads like its from someone who didn't actually play Ultima Online.
No, I know from my experience what he went through. It took me a few weeks of constantly getting PKed and looted before I found the guild that changed it all for me. I was looking through guilds on their websites and had a number of interesting options, but found these guys and it worked out well for me. He just didn't stick it out, but that's a big ask under the circumstances. Lots of players quit UO because of it.
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
This reads like its from someone who didn't actually play Ultima Online.
No, I know from my experience what he went through. It took me a few weeks of constantly getting PKed and looted before I found the guild that changed it all for me. I was looking through guilds on their websites and had a number of interesting options, but found these guys and it worked out well for me. He just didn't stick it out, but that's a big ask under the circumstances. Lots of players quit UO because of it.
A lot of players never got the chance to play UO because they were not willing to stick out all of the asshattery long enough until they found a way to connect with the "good people."
I would have been one such, fortunately my first MMORPG was on a PVE only Lineage 1 server to ease me into it.
Back then I thought playing online with other people to be extremely weird. Come to think of it, I'm more convinced than ever that it is.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
This reads like its from someone who didn't actually play Ultima Online.
No, I know from my experience what he went through. It took me a few weeks of constantly getting PKed and looted before I found the guild that changed it all for me. I was looking through guilds on their websites and had a number of interesting options, but found these guys and it worked out well for me. He just didn't stick it out, but that's a big ask under the circumstances. Lots of players quit UO because of it.
A lot of players never got the chance to play UO because they were not willing to stick out all of the asshattery long enough until they found a way to connect with the "good people."
I would have been one such, fortunately my first MMORPG was on a PVE only Lineage 1 server to ease me into it.
Back then I thought playing online with other people to be extremely weird. Come to think of it, I'm more convinced than ever that it is.
What's interesting is that when I started playing, I just accepted the game for what it was. Didn't think too much about how cruel or difficult the game was; probably because I didn't really have any other option. And the fact I was absolutely blown away by seeing other real people on my screen. It blew my young teenage mind. Absolutely hooked on the game.
Had I had a more powerful computer to eventually run EQ or friends that didn't play UO, then I might have jumped to the other side. But the only reason why I left UO for other games was because they completely altered the game into some type of dysfunctional Diablo 2 game.
UO truly was a unique experience unlike anything else. I still stand by that EQ is a better game since it has a team that still develops and releases new content. But UO did feel very alive. Still does!
/played-mmorpgs
Total time played:9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
lulz..wut?
git gud.
I do have some regrets about UO in that there was much of the game I never got to enjoy, in large part, because leaving town was quite dangerous and spending 45 min to travel somewhere, get ganked, and then spend 30 min trying to find a healer was just awful.
I don't know if it was as bad as you describe, but it was bad enough that I'd stick pretty close to areas I knew well.
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
lulz..wut?
git gud.
I do have some regrets about UO in that there was much of the game I never got to enjoy, in large part, because leaving town was quite dangerous and spending 45 min to travel somewhere, get ganked, and then spend 30 min trying to find a healer was just awful.
I don't know if it was as bad as you describe, but it was bad enough that I'd stick pretty close to areas I knew well.
But because of that, I felt like it made such a unique experience. There were times of frustration, but it helped build the stories and memories we have.
However, I do understand that maybe it wasn't what other people were looking for and why we eventually got Trammel once EQ was on the scene. They had to retain players.
I don't know, I do remember being frustrated at times, but then I also remember times being rewarded unlike any other mmo I've played.
/played-mmorpgs
Total time played:9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
lulz..wut?
git gud.
I do have some regrets about UO in that there was much of the game I never got to enjoy, in large part, because leaving town was quite dangerous and spending 45 min to travel somewhere, get ganked, and then spend 30 min trying to find a healer was just awful.
I don't know if it was as bad as you describe, but it was bad enough that I'd stick pretty close to areas I knew well.
But because of that, I felt like it made such a unique experience. There were times of frustration, but it helped build the stories and memories we have.
However, I do understand that maybe it wasn't what other people were looking for and why we eventually got Trammel once EQ was on the scene. They had to retain players.
I don't know, I do remember being frustrated at times, but then I also remember times being rewarded unlike any other mmo I've played.
If you have to make a new style of server to retain players when another game comes out it is pretty clear that many players were keen on UO despite it's original features rather than because of them.
I did like some of the ideas in UO....I thought it had some original ideas that we still dont see in many games even today.....The graphics were difficult to deal with, even back then....If UO would have been made without the player killing, it would have appealed to me much more.
I did like some of the ideas in UO....I thought it had some original ideas that we still dont see in many games even today.....The graphics were difficult to deal with, even back then....If UO would have been made without the player killing, it would have appealed to me much more.
You should give it a try now, if you're still interested. The game doesn't really have PKing anymore as long as you stay in Trammel.
Honestly, I thought the original graphics aged well. It's definitely a game from that era, but it looks good (aside from that lousy "3d" engine or some of their new art direction).
/played-mmorpgs
Total time played:9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
lulz..wut?
git gud.
I do have some regrets about UO in that there was much of the game I never got to enjoy, in large part, because leaving town was quite dangerous and spending 45 min to travel somewhere, get ganked, and then spend 30 min trying to find a healer was just awful.
I don't know if it was as bad as you describe, but it was bad enough that I'd stick pretty close to areas I knew well.
But because of that, I felt like it made such a unique experience. There were times of frustration, but it helped build the stories and memories we have.
However, I do understand that maybe it wasn't what other people were looking for and why we eventually got Trammel once EQ was on the scene. They had to retain players.
I don't know, I do remember being frustrated at times, but then I also remember times being rewarded unlike any other mmo I've played.
If you have to make a new style of server to retain players when another game comes out it is pretty clear that many players were keen on UO despite it's original features rather than because of them.
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
This reads like its from someone who didn't actually play Ultima Online.
No, I know from my experience what he went through. It took me a few weeks of constantly getting PKed and looted before I found the guild that changed it all for me. I was looking through guilds on their websites and had a number of interesting options, but found these guys and it worked out well for me. He just didn't stick it out, but that's a big ask under the circumstances. Lots of players quit UO because of it.
A lot of players never got the chance to play UO because they were not willing to stick out all of the asshattery long enough until they found a way to connect with the "good people."
I would have been one such, fortunately my first MMORPG was on a PVE only Lineage 1 server to ease me into it.
Back then I thought playing online with other people to be extremely weird. Come to think of it, I'm more convinced than ever that it is.
What's interesting is that when I started playing, I just accepted the game for what it was. Didn't think too much about how cruel or difficult the game was; probably because I didn't really have any other option. And the fact I was absolutely blown away by seeing other real people on my screen. It blew my young teenage mind. Absolutely hooked on the game.
Had I had a more powerful computer to eventually run EQ or friends that didn't play UO, then I might have jumped to the other side. But the only reason why I left UO for other games was because they completely altered the game into some type of dysfunctional Diablo 2 game.
UO truly was a unique experience unlike anything else. I still stand by that EQ is a better game since it has a team that still develops and releases new content. But UO did feel very alive. Still does!
There's reasons why UO felt more alive than any other MMORPG.
I see it as two basic factors.
1. The game was built as a world to interact with. There were so many things players could do than no other game has that the impression of "realistic world" was strong.
2. The socialness. Players interacted with other players in such a natural way, and frequently. Saying "Hail" was very common just because it felt like the thing to do. Talking to other players just flowed from there. And you soon started to recognize names and have some perspective of those characters/players, from the experiences. It was a lot like going to your favorite bar. Plus the trade and economy, the adventures, the guilds, and organized player efforts, etc.
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
This reads like its from someone who didn't actually play Ultima Online.
No, I know from my experience what he went through. It took me a few weeks of constantly getting PKed and looted before I found the guild that changed it all for me. I was looking through guilds on their websites and had a number of interesting options, but found these guys and it worked out well for me. He just didn't stick it out, but that's a big ask under the circumstances. Lots of players quit UO because of it.
A lot of players never got the chance to play UO because they were not willing to stick out all of the asshattery long enough until they found a way to connect with the "good people."
I would have been one such, fortunately my first MMORPG was on a PVE only Lineage 1 server to ease me into it.
Back then I thought playing online with other people to be extremely weird. Come to think of it, I'm more convinced than ever that it is.
What's interesting is that when I started playing, I just accepted the game for what it was. Didn't think too much about how cruel or difficult the game was; probably because I didn't really have any other option. And the fact I was absolutely blown away by seeing other real people on my screen. It blew my young teenage mind. Absolutely hooked on the game.
Had I had a more powerful computer to eventually run EQ or friends that didn't play UO, then I might have jumped to the other side. But the only reason why I left UO for other games was because they completely altered the game into some type of dysfunctional Diablo 2 game.
UO truly was a unique experience unlike anything else. I still stand by that EQ is a better game since it has a team that still develops and releases new content. But UO did feel very alive. Still does!
There's reasons why UO felt more alive than any other MMORPG.
I see it as two basic factors.
1. The game was built as a world to interact with. There were so many things players could do than no other game has that the impression of "realistic world" was strong.
2. The socialness. Players interacted with other players in such a natural way, and frequently. Saying "Hail" was very common just because it felt like the thing to do. Talking to other players just flowed from there. And you soon started to recognize names and have some perspective of those characters/players, from the experiences. It was a lot like going to your favorite bar. Plus the trade and economy, the adventures, the guilds, and organized player efforts, etc.
I truly believe part of the reason why the game was so social (face to face) was because at the time there was no world chat, there was no auction house system or trade channels. You had to interact with each other face to face to be able to communicate (outside of guilds and parties). So in a way it was a natural way of communicating with each other like we would in the real world.
And because there was much risk to be had, you eventually learned names of people to trust and who not to trust. There was no systems in place to 'protect the player'.
Love it or hate it, it was one of the most unique experiences in online gaming. Hand down.
/played-mmorpgs
Total time played:9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
The difference in the 2 games to me was the community.....EQ had a much more friendly and helpful community....All I ever got in UO was killed....UO felt like I was on an island with a thousand mass murderers....Pre-Trammell the game was nothing but getting killed and ganked by other players constantly...How anyone found that fun I'll never know.
This reads like its from someone who didn't actually play Ultima Online.
No, I know from my experience what he went through. It took me a few weeks of constantly getting PKed and looted before I found the guild that changed it all for me. I was looking through guilds on their websites and had a number of interesting options, but found these guys and it worked out well for me. He just didn't stick it out, but that's a big ask under the circumstances. Lots of players quit UO because of it.
A lot of players never got the chance to play UO because they were not willing to stick out all of the asshattery long enough until they found a way to connect with the "good people."
I would have been one such, fortunately my first MMORPG was on a PVE only Lineage 1 server to ease me into it.
Back then I thought playing online with other people to be extremely weird. Come to think of it, I'm more convinced than ever that it is.
What's interesting is that when I started playing, I just accepted the game for what it was. Didn't think too much about how cruel or difficult the game was; probably because I didn't really have any other option. And the fact I was absolutely blown away by seeing other real people on my screen. It blew my young teenage mind. Absolutely hooked on the game.
Had I had a more powerful computer to eventually run EQ or friends that didn't play UO, then I might have jumped to the other side. But the only reason why I left UO for other games was because they completely altered the game into some type of dysfunctional Diablo 2 game.
UO truly was a unique experience unlike anything else. I still stand by that EQ is a better game since it has a team that still develops and releases new content. But UO did feel very alive. Still does!
There's reasons why UO felt more alive than any other MMORPG.
I see it as two basic factors.
1. The game was built as a world to interact with. There were so many things players could do than no other game has that the impression of "realistic world" was strong.
2. The socialness. Players interacted with other players in such a natural way, and frequently. Saying "Hail" was very common just because it felt like the thing to do. Talking to other players just flowed from there. And you soon started to recognize names and have some perspective of those characters/players, from the experiences. It was a lot like going to your favorite bar. Plus the trade and economy, the adventures, the guilds, and organized player efforts, etc.
I truly believe part of the reason why the game was so social (face to face) was because at the time there was no world chat, there was no auction house system or trade channels. You had to interact with each other face to face to be able to communicate (outside of guilds and parties). So in a way it was a natural way of communicating with each other like we would in the real world.
And because there was much risk to be had, you eventually learned names of people to trust and who not to trust. There was no systems in place to 'protect the player'.
Love it or hate it, it was one of the most unique experiences in online gaming. Hand down.
I completely agree. The rampant abuses were the issue, and ruined what could have been a great "RP/Live in a World" experience. Figuring out how to stop that abuse is very difficult. Still, UO almost got there, but EA stepped in and forced them to separate the PvP from the PvE just before the Devs got there. That ruined the one-world concept, and much more (as you pointed out).
Comments
It was in the secret sauce.
Once upon a time....
But did you try to find a guild of good players?
They were many.
They also had connections to other good guilds.
Or, if you found a bank where members of such guilds and their associated guilds, would do their banking, you could hang out there and make connections, without actually joining a guild.
I went through the same thing when I started. But then I found a great guild who were protectors of a valley (Orc Valley, south of Yew and the crossroads), Anti-PK and Looter, and I started helping them, got invited to join, and things really turned around for me.
They had alliances with a few other great guilds, too, and I made some friends with them also. They were part of the extensive RP community, and I made friends there too.
They were also involved into all the events, GM and Player run events. So there were a lot of things to do and people to meet.
Because of that, I knew the players who started the fantastic Museum of Memories, Kazola's Tavern, Yew Town Council, the Fishing Council of Britannia, and many others.
I even had the opportunity to get a laugh from Lord British himself when he placed a special plaque on the wall at Kazola's Tavern. The scene was crowded, and very laggy. I went into the Tavern where Garriott (LB) was with his special character that looked like his RL self, walking step by slow step (due to heavy lag), and as I passed in front of the Lord British I said "Excuse me, I seem to have sprained my lag."
LB gave out a "haha".
UO, despite the issues, was one hell of a fun game, and much more "alive", as I said.
The whole point is, of you have a game that fosters the social like UO (and very few others), then it becomes "what you make of it." Most games don't foster this, by their very design.
Once upon a time....
He just didn't stick it out, but that's a big ask under the circumstances.
Lots of players quit UO because of it.
Once upon a time....
I would have been one such, fortunately my first MMORPG was on a PVE only Lineage 1 server to ease me into it.
Back then I thought playing online with other people to be extremely weird. Come to think of it, I'm more convinced than ever that it is.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Had I had a more powerful computer to eventually run EQ or friends that didn't play UO, then I might have jumped to the other side. But the only reason why I left UO for other games was because they completely altered the game into some type of dysfunctional Diablo 2 game.
UO truly was a unique experience unlike anything else. I still stand by that EQ is a better game since it has a team that still develops and releases new content. But UO did feel very alive. Still does!
Total time played: 9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds
Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
git gud.
I do have some regrets about UO in that there was much of the game I never got to enjoy, in large part, because leaving town was quite dangerous and spending 45 min to travel somewhere, get ganked, and then spend 30 min trying to find a healer was just awful.
I don't know if it was as bad as you describe, but it was bad enough that I'd stick pretty close to areas I knew well.
However, I do understand that maybe it wasn't what other people were looking for and why we eventually got Trammel once EQ was on the scene. They had to retain players.
I don't know, I do remember being frustrated at times, but then I also remember times being rewarded unlike any other mmo I've played.
Total time played: 9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds
Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
If you have to make a new style of server to retain players when another game comes out it is pretty clear that many players were keen on UO despite it's original features rather than because of them.
Honestly, I thought the original graphics aged well. It's definitely a game from that era, but it looks good (aside from that lousy "3d" engine or some of their new art direction).
Total time played: 9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds
Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
Once upon a time....
I see it as two basic factors.
1. The game was built as a world to interact with. There were so many things players could do than no other game has that the impression of "realistic world" was strong.
2. The socialness. Players interacted with other players in such a natural way, and frequently. Saying "Hail" was very common just because it felt like the thing to do. Talking to other players just flowed from there. And you soon started to recognize names and have some perspective of those characters/players, from the experiences.
It was a lot like going to your favorite bar.
Plus the trade and economy, the adventures, the guilds, and organized player efforts, etc.
Once upon a time....
And because there was much risk to be had, you eventually learned names of people to trust and who not to trust. There was no systems in place to 'protect the player'.
Love it or hate it, it was one of the most unique experiences in online gaming. Hand down.
Total time played: 9125 Days, 21 Hours, 29 Minutes, 27 Seconds
Time played this level: 39 Days, 1 Hour, 24 Minutes, 5 Seconds
The rampant abuses were the issue, and ruined what could have been a great "RP/Live in a World" experience.
Figuring out how to stop that abuse is very difficult. Still, UO almost got there, but EA stepped in and forced them to separate the PvP from the PvE just before the Devs got there.
That ruined the one-world concept, and much more (as you pointed out).
Once upon a time....