Stars Reach, Pillars part 3 looks more informative

Amaranthar · July 24

Game Pillars 3:
https://starsreach.com/stars-reach-game-pillars-part-three/
and additional "Vibe" post on Raph's blog:
http://https//www.raphkoster.com/2024/07/24/sr-pillars-three-the-vibe/

A very interesting part, about advancement, is confirmed.

"And lastly, we need to level the playing field some between new players and old pros. The power accumulation curve of most MMOs results in friends being unable to play together as soon as one of the members has more or less time to play than the others. MMOs have long recognized this problem and built design hacks into the system that basically “undo” you advancement when playing in mixed-level situations. The first one of these was “sidekicking” in City of Heroes in 2004, but nowadays we have level scaling and other approaches, all of which are fundamentally about ignoring the level system that the game is designed around."
"Since we favor horizontal progression, where instead of “numbers go up” we have “number of commands goes up,” we can avoid this issue. In our game, your hit points won’t go up noticeably. And you will do more damage not because you leveled up or your gear got better, but because you compounded tactics together that you unlocked with skills."

I wonder if these "compounded tactics" will have visual effects that we can recognize, even for PvE. I love the strategy of figuring out what your opponent is capable of (or favors), and then building your own to beat that.

I also like the comments (on Raph's blog) about the art and "vibe."

I don't want it too much in either direction. I want to see them hit that sweet spot somewhere in the middle. I don't care at all for the entire game to be dark.

cameltosis · July 25

Another good post from Raph, as always.

I think this is the first time I've seen him mention horizontal progression with regards to this project. It mostly makes me happy! But I remain severely confused about what combat is going to actually look like.

In the Q and A video I watched, he and his team talked about how their combat mechanics have been heavily influenced by early arcade games, i.e. pure point and click, the simplest of the simple, ultra shallow.

A few days later, possibly in one of his design pillars, I read something along the lines of your capabilities will be determined by what you have in your hand, not an arbitrary class. If you want to change your capabilities, just select a different weapon on your toolbar. This made me think of survival games (something he says he's been influenced by), but survival games are also very shallow and simple when it comes to combat.

This blog now mentions horizontal progression, unlocking more and more skills for a given type of weapon / class, creating synergies between different skills to give you improved capabilities. This seems to match with his overall desire to have depth in the game......but contradicts his earlier comments on combat design.

On the art and direction, im fully on board. I've never been much of a fan of dark and depressing world design, spending too much time in such places normally has a negative effect on my own mental wellbeing. I'd much rather be spending my time in a game that is bright and colourful, optimistic, uplifting. It's the same reason why I choose to spend my TV time watching comedies, rather than depressing murder documentaries.

(exception to that is, ofc, warhammer 40k! but I'm willing to forgive a lot of the grimdark as it has the best orks)

Amaranthar · July 25

Well, now he's talking "Skills." LOL
This doesn't tell us specifically what he's designing, though.
- Classes are groups of Skills.
- Each item is defined under a Skill, so ma Carpenter's Hammer could be defined as a "Bashing Weapon", on top of hammering things to make items.

There are survival tools that act as a number of things, they are "multi-skill tools."

Maybe Raph is going to break it all down into "uses" rather than items or Skills, or even Classes.
This is just a wild idea. I'm basically saying that we don't know what he's up to. LOL

Raph · July 25

We've actually talked about a fair amount of this elsewhere, but you likely haven't seen it.

Classless system with skill trees akin to those of SWG. 40+ professions ranging through combat specialties, medical, harvesting, social professions, etc. Skills unlock verbs and recipes, and the like.

You use these through a tool, and you have a limited toolbelt loadout in a session. Think, go back to town to swap out. There's nuance there, but that's a decent high level summary. Guns count as a tool, but so do your mining tools, your tool for healing, and so on. You do everything through a tool.

Combat is action arcadey; there's a dab of bullet hell, you actively dodge (dodge roll, sprint, etc). So the base feel is that. You can run in one direction while firing in another. And you have "charge up" shots where you hold to charge up and fire when you let go.

But you also have special moves you learn from your skill trees. So the most basic form is run around and pew pew, but the special moves have all the sort of special effects and statuses you would expect from any other MMORPG. Stuns, blind, DOTs, crowd control, all of that.

In addition, we support homing shots, and plan to even support target lock for tab-targeting sorts of players. So you don't need to be an expert action gamer.

Once you take all the special moves associated with all the tools you can have on the toolbelt, you end up with a set of buttons comparable to what most MMOs offer.

Elidien_ga · July 25

Raph just said "pew pew" in a post. My day is made as I think back to my pistol/combat medic in SWG. I did a lot of pew pew.

lotrlore · July 25

A lot of what @Raph listed we wrote about in our announce interview, in case anyone here missed it: https://www.mmorpg.com/interviews/interview-stars-reach-is-playable-worlds-upcoming-mmo-set-in-a-fully-simulated-sandbox-galaxy-2000132058

Amaranthar · July 26

Raph said:

We've actually talked about a fair amount of this elsewhere, but you likely haven't seen it.

Classless system with skill trees akin to those of SWG. 40+ professions ranging through combat specialties, medical, harvesting, social professions, etc. Skills unlock verbs and recipes, and the like.

You use these through a tool, and you have a limited toolbelt loadout in a session. Think, go back to town to swap out. There's nuance there, but that's a decent high level summary. Guns count as a tool, but so do your mining tools, your tool for healing, and so on. You do everything through a tool.

Combat is action arcadey; there's a dab of bullet hell, you actively dodge (dodge roll, sprint, etc). So the base feel is that. You can run in one direction while firing in another. And you have "charge up" shots where you hold to charge up and fire when you let go.

But you also have special moves you learn from your skill trees. So the most basic form is run around and pew pew, but the special moves have all the sort of special effects and statuses you would expect from any other MMORPG. Stuns, blind, DOTs, crowd control, all of that.

In addition, we support homing shots, and plan to even support target lock for tab-targeting sorts of players. So you don't need to be an expert action gamer.

Once you take all the special moves associated with all the tools you can have on the toolbelt, you end up with a set of buttons comparable to what most MMOs offer.

Raph, would it be fair to say that this game will be a sort of "Batman in Space"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOBsbFZGGCQ

Scot · July 26

Well this is an interesting subject, one I have written on here about before, the change in Science Fiction from the hope of Star Trek to visons of the future which are all dystopias.

I applaud a game which says the future can be bright, I am beyond bored at the never ending dystopias we get from Film, TV and books. If you use anything too much it becomes banal and dystopias are so overused it is ridiculous.

I do detect some mixed messaging in theme though if this is "retro SF" (I don't really see it as retro, its just a different take on the genre). After "plundering" their home worlds species have a second chance on terraformed worlds so in game plundering will be punished and good shepherding rewarded. I will use mining here for the purposes of analogy.

First an historical note, if humanity had not mined every ore it could get its hands on etc we would not have a civilization, so "plundering" is a rather subjective.

But, there is a difference between open cast mining and abandonment and refilling to return the pit to its former landscape. So there is a better way of taking resources, but you still need to take them.

So it will depend on how these rewards and punishments are dished out, we shall see.

I understand why the game has not gone hyperrealistic, but lets be honest, hyperrealism is never "boring". The "minecraft" element of the game and wanting the game to not look dated in five years time are reasons enough. I also must challenge Raph on his assertion that hyperrealism "specifically chases away women players" I put that to some girl gamers in one of my guilds and they laughed.

The only issue I have with the graphics are that they are a tad too cartoony and very garishly coloured. I get the hope theme of the game, but we don't all need to be walking around in day-glow outfits for the game to resonate that surely?

I have to take a stand against the idea that Combat marginalises every other form of gameplay. It just depends on how you implement PvP and if he is saying PvE combat marginalises everything else I am not even sure where he is coming from.

I am not sure about the horizontal progression either, the game will miss out on if there is no vertical progression and very limited combat. I don't see combat as being detrimental to the community as Ralph does as long as the game is set up properly. Specific zones for PVP and so on, but clearly he is headed a different way with SR, only time will tell if his vision pans out.

Lithuanian · July 26

Some thoughts about this....game that promises everything to everyone.

Combat: what makes me nervous is a combat where you require some 2000 computer datacenters to figure out single monster. "Ok, i have tactical mastery that influiences Strategical mastery, which also depends upon Stargaze, while Stargaze is directly influenced by Grumpygaze, however Grumpygaze cannot be higher than Mudforming, which in turn depends upon Racial_skill1.."; "If I fire Shot1, I have 3,1789325 seconds cooldown and 15,875% to hit, thus i must make a Roll_right at 73 degrees precisely 2,5 seconds afte shot fired, then make 2 steps back, make Jump_Up2 skill if monster fires Mudballs, but Jump_Roll_9 skill if monster fires Iceballs, after that I must make precisely 12 rolls left and 3 rolls right, then activate MegaSkill_1 and fire 2,5 centimeters above monster's right eye".

Game promises to have "no skill numbers". Nice. Tell me what is real difference between two:
A) You earned 1000 experience - You get level 12 - You can use Fuzzball attack skill

You earned 1000 experience - You can use Fuzzball attack skill.
For me, they end in same result. They are the same.

But let us imagine that combat is skippable. By some unknown technology I can live peacefully: monsters won't attack me, players (who are worst monsters) too.

Resources are question. Game promises to punish griefers and encourage normal players. So - I apply fire to sand and make glass, because glass is needed for my Glass Palace. I need some 5000 glass blocks for it. Would you punish me for that?
At other biome griefer is turning all little desert into glass. Entire 5000 blocks. Punish griefer for that? How to make a differtence between absolutely identical actions?

Another easy example. I set up fireplace. You know, to feel warm, roleplay, or just see how it looks like. What a pity that I forgot about fireplace and forest fire started. Entire old oak forest is now ashes. Would you punish me? How would you realize it was not intentional?

Canibalizing planet is yet another mission impossible. If resources does not auto-respawn, it means player would have to turn part of his land into Mordor. If I need stone, I mine stone, if i need sand (for same glass), i mine sand. Problem is, that for my Royal Palace I must destroy 2 little sand deserts and some big island: all because of 5000 blocks of glass and 17850 blocks of stone. So, if players build, they are doomed to destroy their own lands. And if, say, Engraved Stone is made from 5 Simple Stone and 2 Pig eyes - what if my castle need same 17850 Engraved Stones?

Wait a second, we could form lakes instead of quarries! Which does not respawn resources. Instead of Mordor you get waterworld...and same area free of usefull building resources.

So far it looks like player would have two very simple choices: build some hut and leave landscape intact; or build some impressive palace and turn half his lands into desolated, lifeless Mordor.

Champie · July 26

Lithuanian said:

Problem is, that for my Royal Palace I must destroy 2 little sand deserts and some big island: all because of 5000 blocks of glass and 17850 blocks of stone. So, if players build, they are doomed to destroy their own lands. And if, say, Engraved Stone is made from 5 Simple Stone and 2 Pig eyes - what if my castle need same 17850 Engraved Stones?

I think I understand the problem..... you keep talking about MINECRAFT

ShinyFlygon · July 26

Scot said:

I am not sure about the horizontal progression either, the game will miss out on if there is no vertical progression and very limited combat.

I have to ask: What exactly do you believe vertical progression brings to an MMO? What is the point? Every game that has it must eventually work very hard to dismantle it in some subtle way, so why even include it in the first place?

Sovrath · July 26

ShinyFlygon said:

Scot said:

I am not sure about the horizontal progression either, the game will miss out on if there is no vertical progression and very limited combat.

I have to ask: What exactly do you believe vertical progression brings to an MMO? What is the point? Every game that has it must eventually work very hard to dismantle it in some subtle way, so why even include it in the first place?

It's really more about "attitude." Vertical progression is a measurable way of noting your character getting better. You are "this" much stronger, you have "this" much more hp," etc.

I'm a big believer in vertical progression but I'm a bigger believer in that it should be flatter than most games allow. So, for hit points, a new player might have 10 and a veteran could have ~60 depending upon what affects hit points. Not 5000.

A veteran should be stronger, better, etc but they should still have to rely upon their reflexes or skills or whatever to prevail. They just might have more hit points and more stamina/magicka or whatever to get the job done.

Wargfoot · July 26

Sovrath said:

ShinyFlygon said:

Scot said:

I am not sure about the horizontal progression either, the game will miss out on if there is no vertical progression and very limited combat.

I have to ask: What exactly do you believe vertical progression brings to an MMO? What is the point? Every game that has it must eventually work very hard to dismantle it in some subtle way, so why even include it in the first place?

It's really more about "attitude." Vertical progression is a measurable way of noting your character getting better. You are "this" much stronger, you have "this" much more hp," etc.

I'm a big believer in vertical progression but I'm a bigger believer in that it should be flatter than most games allow. So, for hit points, a new player might have 10 and a veteran could have ~60 depending upon what affects hit points. Not 5000.

A veteran should be stronger, better, etc but they should still have to rely upon their reflexes or skills or whatever to prevail. They just might have more hit points and more stamina/magicka or whatever to get the job done.

I could go for this.

I don't mind SOME vertical progression but if you can got AFK, and my level X can beat on your level Y for 10 minutes and do no damage - well, that sucks.

I'd like to be able to see 2-3 well played noobs take out a poorly played vet - which in many games is literally impossible.

Slapshot1188 · July 26

Sovrath said:

ShinyFlygon said:

Scot said:

I am not sure about the horizontal progression either, the game will miss out on if there is no vertical progression and very limited combat.

I have to ask: What exactly do you believe vertical progression brings to an MMO? What is the point? Every game that has it must eventually work very hard to dismantle it in some subtle way, so why even include it in the first place?

It's really more about "attitude." Vertical progression is a measurable way of noting your character getting better. You are "this" much stronger, you have "this" much more hp," etc.

I'm a big believer in vertical progression but I'm a bigger believer in that it should be flatter than most games allow. So, for hit points, a new player might have 10 and a veteran could have ~60 depending upon what affects hit points. Not 5000.

A veteran should be stronger, better, etc but they should still have to rely upon their reflexes or skills or whatever to prevail. They just might have more hit points and more stamina/magicka or whatever to get the job done.

And subsequently, boss encounters don't need to entail an NPC with 1,000,000 HPs. It's a viscous cycle that leads to damage skills needs to scale to crazy heights.

I like the idea of smaller, but noticeable progression.

Scot · July 27

Sovrath said:

ShinyFlygon said:

Scot said:

I am not sure about the horizontal progression either, the game will miss out on if there is no vertical progression and very limited combat.

I have to ask: What exactly do you believe vertical progression brings to an MMO? What is the point? Every game that has it must eventually work very hard to dismantle it in some subtle way, so why even include it in the first place?

It's really more about "attitude." Vertical progression is a measurable way of noting your character getting better. You are "this" much stronger, you have "this" much more hp," etc.

I'm a big believer in vertical progression but I'm a bigger believer in that it should be flatter than most games allow. So, for hit points, a new player might have 10 and a veteran could have ~60 depending upon what affects hit points. Not 5000.

A veteran should be stronger, better, etc but they should still have to rely upon their reflexes or skills or whatever to prevail. They just might have more hit points and more stamina/magicka or whatever to get the job done.

I am not sure I have seen any MMOs deciding they have no choice but to dismantle VP. But I have seen MMOs like ESO deciding they need to change to a more "horizontal" progression. What the curve is like is open to debate, flatter is better in my eyes, but it still needs to be there.

Cogohi · July 27

Wargfoot said:

I'd like to be able to see 2-3 well played noobs take out a poorly played vet - which in many games is literally impossible.

The Kusion bot army of EVE Online say "hello"

Dibdabs · July 28

Cogohi said:

Wargfoot said:

I'd like to be able to see 2-3 well played noobs take out a poorly played vet - which in many games is literally impossible.

The Kusion bot army of EVE Online say "hello"

Also, Kessie Swarms FTW. Well, they used to be, but I'm shocked to note it's been almost 3 years since I last played Eve Online. Maybe they aren't a thing any more?

Champie · July 28

I was reading the article and it was immediately clear that Raph is high on his own supply...(emphasis mine)

An Endlessly Explorable FUN Retro Sci-Fantasy Universe

That is ONE too many words, plus it is a manipulative word. We will determine what is fun.

Angrakhan · July 28

I would just like to pout out that compounding tactics to produce more DPS is still vertical progression. If you're level 1 and have a direct damage ability that does 10 points of damage and you have 100 hit points, and I am level 2 with the same 100 hit points same 10 point direct damage ability and a DoT that does 20 points of damage over 10 seconds assuming these abilities are instant cast with a cool down I will win 100/100 duels with you because I can stack the DoT with the DD ability. You cannot. Still vertical. Still the same issues with grouping because at some point either the content will be hard enough to require both the DD and the DoT to clear the content or the meta will drive away the lower level player because of clear speed. It's just a different shade of lipstick on the same pig.

Slapshot1188 · July 28

Champie said:

I was reading the article and it was immediately clear that Raph is high on his own supply...(emphasis mine)

An Endlessly Explorable FUN Retro Sci-Fantasy Universe

That is ONE too many words, plus it is a manipulative word. We will determine what is fun.

I disagree. I think it's declaring that this isn't shooting to be the most accurate space sim of all time and that they will prioritize the GAME over the SIM.

At least I hope so.

Champie · July 29

Slapshot1188 said:
I disagree. I think it's declaring that this isn't shooting to be the most accurate space sim of all time and that they will prioritize the GAME over the SIM.

I am not surprised you have lost the plot. Your endless deference to manipulative marketing nonsense and bloviating Cult Leaders is what DEFINES YOUR MMORPG PERSONA

Scot · July 29

Err Ok Guys...Keep Calm and Carry On Posting!

Slapshot1188 · July 29

Champie said:

Slapshot1188 said:
I disagree. I think it's declaring that this isn't shooting to be the most accurate space sim of all time and that they will prioritize the GAME over the SIM.

I am not surprised you have lost the plot. Your endless deference to manipulative marketing nonsense and bloviating Cult Leaders is what DEFINES YOUR MMORPG PERSONA

Yup. That’s certainly my big weakness.

ShinyFlygon · July 29

Sovrath said:

ShinyFlygon said:

Scot said:

I am not sure about the horizontal progression either, the game will miss out on if there is no vertical progression and very limited combat.

I have to ask: What exactly do you believe vertical progression brings to an MMO? What is the point? Every game that has it must eventually work very hard to dismantle it in some subtle way, so why even include it in the first place?

It's really more about "attitude." Vertical progression is a measurable way of noting your character getting better. You are "this" much stronger, you have "this" much more hp," etc.

I'm a big believer in vertical progression but I'm a bigger believer in that it should be flatter than most games allow. So, for hit points, a new player might have 10 and a veteran could have ~60 depending upon what affects hit points. Not 5000.

A veteran should be stronger, better, etc but they should still have to rely upon their reflexes or skills or whatever to prevail. They just might have more hit points and more stamina/magicka or whatever to get the job done.

But that's all an illusion. If your enemies also have bigger numbers (and they always do), nothing has really changed on a functional level. You are demonstrably NOT "this" much stronger. This is especially true in games where they've normalized the levels throughout the game world, and a rat in the newbie zone can still kill you.

The ONLY thing that makes you stronger in any meaningful way is the fact that you've learned more abilities, unlocked more talents, etc. -- in other words, the horizontal part of progression.

Amaranthar · July 29

ShinyFlygon said:

Sovrath said:

ShinyFlygon said:

Scot said:

I am not sure about the horizontal progression either, the game will miss out on if there is no vertical progression and very limited combat.

I have to ask: What exactly do you believe vertical progression brings to an MMO? What is the point? Every game that has it must eventually work very hard to dismantle it in some subtle way, so why even include it in the first place?

It's really more about "attitude." Vertical progression is a measurable way of noting your character getting better. You are "this" much stronger, you have "this" much more hp," etc.

I'm a big believer in vertical progression but I'm a bigger believer in that it should be flatter than most games allow. So, for hit points, a new player might have 10 and a veteran could have ~60 depending upon what affects hit points. Not 5000.

A veteran should be stronger, better, etc but they should still have to rely upon their reflexes or skills or whatever to prevail. They just might have more hit points and more stamina/magicka or whatever to get the job done.

But that's all an illusion. If your enemies also have bigger numbers (and they always do), nothing has really changed on a functional level. You are demonstrably NOT "this" much stronger. This is especially true in games where they've normalized the levels throughout the game world, and a rat in the newbie zone can still kill you.

The ONLY thing that makes you stronger in any meaningful way is the fact that you've learned more abilities, unlocked more talents, etc. -- in other words, the horizontal part of progression.

Yes, I think you're right.
The other part is that if HP's don't go up much, then MOBs don't need to either.
This provides a stability amongst MOBs (as opposed to the "level grind" tiers), by which a player can see their character's development better.
We'll feel like we're getting stronger in a more "real" sense, rather than just bigger numbers against equally bigger numbers.

Sovrath · July 29

ShinyFlygon said:

Sovrath said:

ShinyFlygon said:

Scot said:

I am not sure about the horizontal progression either, the game will miss out on if there is no vertical progression and very limited combat.

I have to ask: What exactly do you believe vertical progression brings to an MMO? What is the point? Every game that has it must eventually work very hard to dismantle it in some subtle way, so why even include it in the first place?

It's really more about "attitude." Vertical progression is a measurable way of noting your character getting better. You are "this" much stronger, you have "this" much more hp," etc.

I'm a big believer in vertical progression but I'm a bigger believer in that it should be flatter than most games allow. So, for hit points, a new player might have 10 and a veteran could have ~60 depending upon what affects hit points. Not 5000.

A veteran should be stronger, better, etc but they should still have to rely upon their reflexes or skills or whatever to prevail. They just might have more hit points and more stamina/magicka or whatever to get the job done.

But that's all an illusion. If your enemies also have bigger numbers (and they always do), nothing has really changed on a functional level. You are demonstrably NOT "this" much stronger. This is especially true in games where they've normalized the levels throughout the game world, and a rat in the newbie zone can still kill you.

The ONLY thing that makes you stronger in any meaningful way is the fact that you've learned more abilities, unlocked more talents, etc. -- in other words, the horizontal part of progression.

No, you “are” stronger. You are stronger to every enemy that you’ve been fighting with.

You then have new enemies that are stronger and you need to level up to best them. That’s why you can traverse formerly dangerous areas with no issues.

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