Sorry but every noun in the English language is a "label". If I point at a table that has an orange and an apple on it and say "Bring me the orange" and you bring me the apple we're going to have a problem. Labels do matter because words matter. If I call you an uneducated moron and you get offended and I tell you to "not get hung up on labels" something tells me you're still going to be offended.
The internet continues to be a graveyard of shit analogies.
Maybe try 'filtered', as you don't seem to be good at this edgelord thing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Sorry but every noun in the English language is a "label". If I point at a table that has an orange and an apple on it and say "Bring me the orange" and you bring me the apple we're going to have a problem. Labels do matter because words matter. If I call you an uneducated moron and you get offended and I tell you to "not get hung up on labels" something tells me you're still going to be offended.
I see, well I guess then your label would be incorrect idiot. Because if you're choosing your game based on how it's labeled, then you're exactly that.
YOU are the only person who seems to think anyone is "choosing your game based on how it's labeled" and only that. I can't believe we are having a discussion about if words used to describe something, are 'old-hat' or not.......what in the actual f%#$!
We appreciate the effort @Stevenweber.....The times have changed and MMORPGs just are not very popular with the mainstream anymore....Has there been thought to expanding the site and covering games of more genres? Make it more of a general gaming site than specific to MMORPGs?
You have been here for ages and they have been doing that for ages, they could do more and I would not mind. But this has not been a MMORPG only site for years.
It is important it keeps the name though, I have seen many "name" rebranding exercises in my time and they rarely achieve what they hoped for.
Sorry but every noun in the English language is a "label". If I point at a table that has an orange and an apple on it and say "Bring me the orange" and you bring me the apple we're going to have a problem. Labels do matter because words matter. If I call you an uneducated moron and you get offended and I tell you to "not get hung up on labels" something tells me you're still going to be offended.
The internet continues to be a graveyard of shit analogies.
That's a very minimum effort response. Why exactly is it a bad comparison? Why choose to be dismissive and insulting instead of just adding to the conversation and explaining your reasoning?
Minimum 1000 consecutive players playing on a single server, not separated by any means (channels, layers, etc). I think you could call it an MMO then.
But that also means you could technically have 1000 players in one area on your screen.
Yes, the first 'M' in MMO is the Roman numeral M meaning 1,000. I thought everybody knew that
Single player -- 1 player Co-op -- a few players Multiplayer -- more than a few, usually dozens MMO -- 1,000 Multiplayer MMORPG -- RPG with 1,000+ players
If MMORPG's are not so popular anymore, why are so many game companies eager to brand their game as one?
If MMORPG's are not so popular anymore, why are so many game companies eager to brand their game as one?
MMORPG's are popular but are becoming less and less so, the more Dev teams lack the ability to produce a good one.
Its crazy to me that in over 20 years not a single game has been released as a real "Clone" of WoW that was actually just a tiny bit better.
The genre has been going backwards for 20 years. Its Crazy.
I once tried to use a copycat recipe to make an "In-Out-Burger" Double Double. Needless to say it fell way short. Maybe they use fairy dust. How can I get some?
Being on the East Coast USA, all I want is an In-Out-Burger nearby and a good MMORPG. Is this so much to ask for .... sheesh? Some things are just not meant to be, no matter how popular they would be.
MMORPG's are popular but are becoming less and less so, the more Dev teams lack the ability to produce a good one.
Its crazy to me that in over 20 years not a single game has been released as a real "Clone" of WoW that was actually just a tiny bit better.
That's a bit subjective.
Certainly, to me, Aion was better than World of Warcraft.
Rift had the invasions that added more danger to the world. That made it better than World of Warcraft in my eyes.
I think that the issue with "wow clones" is that World of warcraft launched "at base line" and was added to/developed over the years. All the "wow clones" had to launch at base line but then be compared to World of Warcraft.
That's always happened and from what I saw from various forums, there were always complaints "wow did it better." Well, "wow" had development from launch and more content added at over time.
The other games could not launch in a state that could rival it other than have some starting features that some, subjectively, could say was better.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Certainly, to me, Aion was better than World of Warcraft.
I am not saying original WoW was the best or not. But its not in dispute that its the most popular MMO ever made by far. I am saying an almost literal clone minus copyright infringement. Like what Palworld did to Pokemon.
Make essentially an MMO with almost all of the same features, change up the skins, change up a few mechanics, then add a little bit more.
It cant possibly be that hard to do. Its right there in front of you, so making it is super simple. No thought required.
Every other industry does it, from cars to computers to phones ... You have in front of you the most popular model ever made and nobody even tried to repeat that success?
Its like if Toyota made the Corolla but the rest of the industry switched and started making go-carts LOL.
WoW isnt my favorite game, but I did play WoW and would 100% try out a similiar game that had the same or better quality.
WoW retail to me is essentially the same but a worse version of classic IMO. But more importantly its still the SAME game in Name and Characters, its essentially a sequel. Nothing wrong with that. But how can nobody else even try to make a better game?
Any game that even came close has made billions. I dont see whats holding companies back.
Make essentially an MMO with almost all of the same features, change up the skins, change up a few mechanics, then add a little bit more.
It cant possibly be that hard to do. Its right there in front of you, so making it is super simple. No thought required.
This is where the debate comes in about why WoW was / is successful. Is it purely because of the design of the game? Is it because of the IPs history and existing fanbase? Is it because it reached that critical mass of playerbase, and so turned itself into a cultural phenomenon?
I personally don't think it's a purely design question. I only played WoW briefly so can't really speak from personal experience, but from everything I can tell, LotRO was a better MMORPG in terms of design. Deeper mechanics, more combat roles, better graphics etc. It even had a bigger existing fanbase. Only thing it lacked was quantity of content. But it didn't get anywhere near WoW's numbers.....because everyone was already invested in WoW, and didn't see the point in switching to something slightly better.
I also think it is indeed very hard to copy something as complex as an MMO. You could keep the gameplay 100% identical, but if the new IP sucked, you wouldn't get the players interested. Getting the meta-game right is also very difficult. Just by changing some of the numbers in the backend, you can go from a very deep combat system to a very shallow one. History has taught us that very few devs know how to get just that bit right, and it's entirely possible that those who did get it right, got it right by accident.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Make essentially an MMO with almost all of the same features, change up the skins, change up a few mechanics, then add a little bit more.
It cant possibly be that hard to do. Its right there in front of you, so making it is super simple. No thought required.
This is where the debate comes in about why WoW was / is successful. Is it purely because of the design of the game? Is it because of the IPs history and existing fanbase? Is it because it reached that critical mass of playerbase, and so turned itself into a cultural phenomenon?
I personally don't think it's a purely design question. I only played WoW briefly so can't really speak from personal experience, but from everything I can tell, LotRO was a better MMORPG in terms of design. Deeper mechanics, more combat roles, better graphics etc. It even had a bigger existing fanbase. Only thing it lacked was quantity of content. But it didn't get anywhere near WoW's numbers.....because everyone was already invested in WoW, and didn't see the point in switching to something slightly better.
I also think it is indeed very hard to copy something as complex as an MMO. You could keep the gameplay 100% identical, but if the new IP sucked, you wouldn't get the players interested. Getting the meta-game right is also very difficult. Just by changing some of the numbers in the backend, you can go from a very deep combat system to a very shallow one. History has taught us that very few devs know how to get just that bit right, and it's entirely possible that those who did get it right, got it right by accident.
I never played LotRO however somehow I doubt the raiding and dungeons in that game is better than WoW.
Even still this is now 2024. I would bet if LotRO was to release today brand new and fresh, the numbers would look way way different. Anything even close to that quality would dominate.
Certainly, to me, Aion was better than World of Warcraft.
I am not saying original WoW was the best or not. But its not in dispute that its the most popular MMO ever made by far. I am saying an almost literal clone minus copyright infringement. Like what Palworld did to Pokemon.
Make essentially an MMO with almost all of the same features, change up the skins, change up a few mechanics, then add a little bit more.
It cant possibly be that hard to do. Its right there in front of you, so making it is super simple. No thought required.
Every other industry does it, from cars to computers to phones ... You have in front of you the most popular model ever made and nobody even tried to repeat that success?
Its like if Toyota made the Corolla but the rest of the industry switched and started making go-carts LOL.
WoW isnt my favorite game, but I did play WoW and would 100% try out a similiar game that had the same or better quality.
WoW retail to me is essentially the same but a worse version of classic IMO. But more importantly its still the SAME game in Name and Characters, its essentially a sequel. Nothing wrong with that. But how can nobody else even try to make a better game?
Any game that even came close has made billions. I dont see whats holding companies back.
I'm curious, what is your favorite mmorpg?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I feel like some people say they want 10,000 other players in the game, but then group with same 8 people and rerun the same instanced dungeons every day until they quit.
Indeed. I bet if all the indie wannabe MMO devs were to drop the "massively" component of their games, they would see a number of significant benefits: lower development time and cost, fewer technical issues to work through (both before and after launch), and fewer ongoing concerns about game balance, to name a few.
They'd get all this without losing any significant portion of their customer base. This is especially true if their game is playable solo or in groups, with scaling difficulty, something like the most recent iteration of the Gauntlet franchise.
The problem with most multiplayer games these days is that they don't "multi-" hard enough. Most games have an upper limit of four, when eight is the actual sweet spot. (I am looking directly at you, Void Crew and Baldur's Gate 3.) Mods can help to a degree, but modding doesn't often help scale up the challenge level to match the higher player count.
Exactly we want more games that involve being able to see everyone interact with everyone create and level my character how i please do anything that comes to our mind in an open world game ?? world of warcraft and runescape are perfect examples of how games should be based let us form 10 20 50 100 1000 man clans if we want and have big wars if we want or run dungeons, missions, quests together if we want ?
I agree that calling a single-player game an MMO is a silly thing to do, there's no shortage of people who are "wrong on the internet". I feel that the only reason to actually give this particular topic any attention is if one is an online columnist looking for something to write. Otherwise it's not worth more than a short "arrggghh" post on some forum.
It is a bit irritating that I have to research a game marked as an "MMO" to see if it's actually an MMO. I've had to refund too many games because I bought it thinking one thing and it turned out to be something completely different.
It seems like the younger generation doesn't care about how something is labeled and marketed. It's second nature for them to look up a game and see it being played... even research the best way to play, the best character to play, etc. They don't seem to associate labels as actual labels with meaning behind the words. To them, it's just a way to get the game to pop up during a search regardless of whether than word was accurate in describing the game.
As an old school player, this was not second nature. I like the newness, the unknown, the adventure of figuring things out. If I see a game that looks interesting and it's labeled an MMO, I took that word as an actual description of the game. Then I find out it has server limits of 20ish people, hard resets every 6 weeks, or some other massive letdown.
It seems like the younger generation doesn't care about how something is labeled and marketed. It's second nature for them to look up a game and see it being played... even research the best way to play, the best character to play, etc. They don't seem to associate labels as actual labels with meaning behind the words. To them, it's just a way to get the game to pop up during a search regardless of whether than word was accurate in describing the game.
Yeah, see my numerous rants on PvE players buying a game clearly labeled a PvP title, and then throwing a poo-fit upon being murdered.
Reading comprehension isn't the problem, rather, the entitled expect to buy a game (clearly labeled as one type of game) and have the developers alter it to their preferences.
The problem goes beyond reading comprehension - that ship sailed two decades ago - we're now into expecting our realities to alter according to preferences. Somehow, spending $15 on a game entitles you to 1,000s of hours of the developers time.
The problem goes beyond reading comprehension - that ship sailed two decades ago - we're now into expecting our realities to alter according to preferences. Somehow, spending $15 on a game entitles you to 1,000s of hours of the developers time.
Indeed, I knew trouble was a-brewin' many years ago when people started talking about how an author's work belonged to the fans (not the author) once published, and that the fans were correct to throw fits when the author took the story in a direction the fans did not predict or approve ahead of time. {EDIT: Oops, not what I meant -- read post below.}
The sheer idiotic hubris of that stance is an ongoing source of despair for me.
The sheer idiotic hubris of that stance is an ongoing source of despair for me.
I feel the same way.
Granted, I'm at the age where I'm supposed to sit on the front porch, sip tea, and complain out 'kids these days'.
I was talking to one of the other older competitors where I train about how to approach training as we get older. His simple answer can be used in many aspects of life. "Lower your expectations".
The problem goes beyond reading comprehension - that ship sailed two decades ago - we're now into expecting our realities to alter according to preferences. Somehow, spending $15 on a game entitles you to 1,000s of hours of the developers time.
Indeed, I knew trouble was a-brewin' many years ago when people started talking about how an author's work belonged to the fans (not the author) once published, and that the fans were correct to throw fits when the author took the story in a direction the fans did not predict or approve ahead of time.
The sheer idiotic hubris of that stance is an ongoing source of despair for me.
Yeah, I dunno about that. The tragedy of how Stephen King f-d up the ending of the Dark Tower series showed total disregard for the fans who waited over 10 years for him to wrap that series up.
We / they were justified in slagging on him for it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Maybe try 'filtered', as you don't seem to be good at this edgelord thing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
YOU are the only person who seems to think anyone is "choosing your game based on how it's labeled" and only that. I can't believe we are having a discussion about if words used to describe something, are 'old-hat' or not.......what in the actual f%#$!
It is important it keeps the name though, I have seen many "name" rebranding exercises in my time and they rarely achieve what they hoped for.
That's a very minimum effort response. Why exactly is it a bad comparison? Why choose to be dismissive and insulting instead of just adding to the conversation and explaining your reasoning?
Single player -- 1 player
Co-op -- a few players
Multiplayer -- more than a few, usually dozens
MMO -- 1,000 Multiplayer
MMORPG -- RPG with 1,000+ players
If MMORPG's are not so popular anymore, why are so many game companies eager to brand their game as one?
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Its crazy to me that in over 20 years not a single game has been released as a real "Clone" of WoW that was actually just a tiny bit better.
The genre has been going backwards for 20 years. Its Crazy.
I once tried to use a copycat recipe to make an "In-Out-Burger" Double Double. Needless to say it fell way short. Maybe they use fairy dust. How can I get some?
Being on the East Coast USA, all I want is an In-Out-Burger nearby and a good MMORPG. Is this so much to ask for .... sheesh? Some things are just not meant to be, no matter how popular they would be.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I am not saying original WoW was the best or not. But its not in dispute that its the most popular MMO ever made by far. I am saying an almost literal clone minus copyright infringement. Like what Palworld did to Pokemon.
Make essentially an MMO with almost all of the same features, change up the skins, change up a few mechanics, then add a little bit more.
It cant possibly be that hard to do. Its right there in front of you, so making it is super simple. No thought required.
Every other industry does it, from cars to computers to phones ...
You have in front of you the most popular model ever made and nobody even tried to repeat that success?
Its like if Toyota made the Corolla but the rest of the industry switched and started making go-carts LOL.
WoW isnt my favorite game, but I did play WoW and would 100% try out a similiar game that had the same or better quality.
WoW retail to me is essentially the same but a worse version of classic IMO. But more importantly its still the SAME game in Name and Characters, its essentially a sequel. Nothing wrong with that. But how can nobody else even try to make a better game?
Any game that even came close has made billions. I dont see whats holding companies back.
Any more or any less and it isn't even a video game, IMHO.
I've very exacting definitions.
Even still this is now 2024. I would bet if LotRO was to release today brand new and fresh, the numbers would look way way different. Anything even close to that quality would dominate.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
UO (post trammel)
DAOC before Trials of Atlantis
WoW Vanilla
ESO 6mo after release (and until the game went to EZ mode)
I would rank my favorites in this order.
Indeed. I bet if all the indie wannabe MMO devs were to drop the "massively" component of their games, they would see a number of significant benefits: lower development time and cost, fewer technical issues to work through (both before and after launch), and fewer ongoing concerns about game balance, to name a few.
They'd get all this without losing any significant portion of their customer base. This is especially true if their game is playable solo or in groups, with scaling difficulty, something like the most recent iteration of the Gauntlet franchise.
The problem with most multiplayer games these days is that they don't "multi-" hard enough. Most games have an upper limit of four, when eight is the actual sweet spot. (I am looking directly at you, Void Crew and Baldur's Gate 3.) Mods can help to a degree, but modding doesn't often help scale up the challenge level to match the higher player count.
It seems like the younger generation doesn't care about how something is labeled and marketed. It's second nature for them to look up a game and see it being played... even research the best way to play, the best character to play, etc. They don't seem to associate labels as actual labels with meaning behind the words. To them, it's just a way to get the game to pop up during a search regardless of whether than word was accurate in describing the game.
As an old school player, this was not second nature. I like the newness, the unknown, the adventure of figuring things out. If I see a game that looks interesting and it's labeled an MMO, I took that word as an actual description of the game. Then I find out it has server limits of 20ish people, hard resets every 6 weeks, or some other massive letdown.
There is 'entertainment', and than there are 'facts', and those two usually don't play well together.
Fishing on Gilgamesh since 2013
Fishing on Bronzebeard since 2005
Fishing in RL since 1992
Born with a fishing rod in my hand in 1979
Reading comprehension isn't the problem, rather, the entitled expect to buy a game (clearly labeled as one type of game) and have the developers alter it to their preferences.
The problem goes beyond reading comprehension - that ship sailed two decades ago - we're now into expecting our realities to alter according to preferences. Somehow, spending $15 on a game entitles you to 1,000s of hours of the developers time.
Granted, I'm at the age where I'm supposed to sit on the front porch, sip tea, and complain out 'kids these days'.
We / they were justified in slagging on him for it.
I stopped buying his books after that.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon