Originally posted by baff No offense but I don't go to an American College. And I don't do cliques. Like everyone else, I did when I was younger, but they sucked then too. My life is well beyond that point. I don't wish to return to that way of living. Ever. Especially not, while relaxing in my own home playing my own game, which I pay for on my own computer. I mot certainly do not pay money to be treated that way. Quite the opposite. . Big raids are boring. What you as an individual are doing within the team doesn't make a lot of diiference. If you sat at the back and did nothing all would still work. There is not so much challenge or sense of personal achievement. The level of team co-ordination is very low compared to a 5 man instance. What's worse is the loot motivation. This attracts friction. My guild who were a lovely bunch of people would insist that all loot was to have first dibs by the guildmaster and his best mates. And he would set up the looting this way. Since it was only certain members of my guild who wished to play that way, I simply made a point never to raid with the manipulators. In the end however to develop my toon further I got to the point where I wanted to go on raids and high level instances. The clan were of course always asking me, since they wanted the numbers to do the big raids, but they were also assuring me that I wouldn't see any of the loot (although I'm sure they wouldn't see it that way), and insisting that I must recalibrate my toon to their specification if I was ever to be considered for any loot of my class. They were all great people, and they could justify 100% why them cherry picking all the loot was best for the guild. And wasn't I a guild player? And my answer was "It's been a pleasure and privilage being invited to and participating in your guild, I hold you all in the highest regard and hope to bump into you at Ogrimmar in the future". I would rather play in pick up teams with strangers who I can trust.
too bad you didn't make this post in that other thread. some dude kept rambling on about why raids BUILD the community in guilds.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
What I always find fascinating in these discussions is that raiders (or 'people who raid' if you use some insane definition of 'raiders') simply won't even discuss any issues like this; they'll go on about how you're lazy, or don't want to participate in the community, or should play another game, but won't even talk about the excellent raiding community. I find it fascinating that people will argue that raiding builds community, but won't address whether that 'community' is worth being a part of. I liked that one thread where the guy both argued that raiding builds community and that anyone who doesn't raid just wants to solo, but would respond to any criticism of the raiding community and whether it's worth participating in with 'you're in the wrong guild, go start your own'.
Originally posted by Pantastic What I always find fascinating in these discussions is that raiders (or 'people who raid' if you use some insane definition of 'raiders') simply won't even discuss any issues like this; they'll go on about how you're lazy, or don't want to participate in the community, or should play another game, but won't even talk about the excellent raiding community. I find it fascinating that people will argue that raiding builds community, but won't address whether that 'community' is worth being a part of. I liked that one thread where the guy both argued that raiding builds community and that anyone who doesn't raid just wants to solo, but would respond to any criticism of the raiding community and whether it's worth participating in with 'you're in the wrong guild, go start your own'.
i think that might be the same thread of which i refer to in my previous post.
i'm like a lot of other people, i want FUN. i'm pretty sure the definition of game should include "fun" in it someplace. otherwise it's not a game, it's a job. just like i'm pretty sure job's definition should include "not fun". challenging perhaps, but not fun.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Its ok in the next year or so Blizzard will learn to listen more intently to its customer base.Like all mmo's that are "hits" new ones always come along to take them down a notch or 2.When this happens the "hit" mmo starts to be more attentive to its remaining customers.
Everyone eventually moves on to new games to try out what they hope will be a new home.The whole problem with WoW is it has all the elements of recent mmo's.
Repeptitive missions and substandard graphics just dont keep people playing for long with any game online or not.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Oh, I know we're talking about the same thread, same thread that prompted me to throw out the raiders and 'people that raid' bit. On the topic of fun, it's fascinating to me that most raiders don't even seem to get the concept of playing a game because it's fun. I mean, so many times you'll ses a thread (it comes up in That Thread too) where a raider talks about how they can't stand what they actually do in a raid but, hey, they can talk on vent and that's fun. The whole idea that there's no point in playing a game that's not actually enjoyable just doesn't seem to have ever crossed their minds.
When I relate my story of leaving a raiding guild (or 'guild-that-raids', heh), you can definately tell who's a raider or not by how they respond to the fact that I left less than a week before I would be out of the trial period and able to do one run of MC and rack up on loot. Raiders insist there must have been some kind of huge drama, or even that I was kicked out, to not want to wait a little longer and go on a run to spend out for some phat lootz. Nonraiders seem to understand that since I found I didn't enjoy raiding, I wasn't interested in going to MC again even for guaranteed purple pixels. I especially find it amusing that many of those same people who can't understand that accuse me of being a "loot whore".
It's fun to go once for the story, and trying to beat it. But once that's done its boring.
There are so many things barring entry to the content that it just isn't fun anymore. I have other stuff to do.
I like having nice items, but I don't have to have the best. It is nice to know that if you have a weekend all to yourself that you can play the game and see some progress.
Porgress stops at 60 unless you give up everything in your life to PvP, or you schedule your life around the gmae in order to raid.
So basically the progression stopped, so the game was over, so I quit.
A large part of any RPG is character building and story, both of which are locked into raiding in this game. And BC won't change anything.
Originally posted by Database82 They need more content for casual players, but they keep coming out with 20man and 40man instances. :
Yep.
Also, there 40 man raid loot prohibits play from the PvP playstyle too.
Evidenlty this is the fault of the lead designer. I've read rumors that he might be fired because he is so unbending about this. A large part of the community at Blizzcon was alienated by his whole "learn to raid" comments.
Basically, this stuff won't change while he holds the game's reins.
Short Answer - They are made for hardcore acheiver types. Long Answer - When you get to max level in WoW, the only things to do are to PvP in the battleground areas or to go on PvE raids to gain better loot. If you are a PvPer and want to be the best at it, then you ALSO have to go on PVE raids because the loot that is obtainable through 40-man raids is incredible, and you'll need it to be competitive. This means that the de facto endgame rewards effort and time-commitment. Let's look at player-type motivations: 1. Casual Players - This is your most basic player. Lots of people get lumped into this play style, but really these are the people who just want to have fun. They don't really need specific content or special stuff. . . they just need fun that is easy to access and doesn't require them to do things out of the game - like applying to uber guilds, or setting up weekly play schedules to do 40-man raids. They'd be more than happy to play and beat 5 and 10 man raids or PvP though. If it's fun, and easy to get into. 2. PvP Players - These players are motivated by challenging other players to tests of skill. True PvP players (rather than greifers who are motivated by inflicting themselves on others) are looking for challenges. They like competitive games and thus are more likely to enjoy competitions that are even. They want real challenges of skill, and don't mind getting beat now and again as long as the game is fun. 3. Hardcorer players (aka Acheivers) - These players are motivated to distinguish themselves within the gaming community. They want to have the special swords, uber loot, titles and other "status" acheivements in the game. WoW's endgame suits them, because while they don't like having to form large uber guilds to meet their goals, or having to set up weekly events, they do like that they can do these things and acheive what they are motivated to do which is to feel special within the game community (Don't laugh if you are not an acheiver, other acheivers are envious of each other's loot and praise people with awesome loot. It happens all the time, and more power to them for it). Casual gamers don't find 40-man raids or the setup for them fun, so they work directly AGAINST their motivation, and PvP players don't find them to be either competitive or to reward skill. In raids, you have to grind them over and over and only so many people will get a prize each raid. PvP players want to win or lose every time. . . like a basketball game. Also, with so much repetition, the challenge of raids soon becomes to stay awake during them. PvP players can't stand the lack of competition, the repetition, and the lack of challenge in the gameplay. Only acheivers can endure these things. . . because while they still dislike the obstacles, their motivation lies beyond the obstacles directly. Casual players (motivated by fun and easy accessability) aren't going to work directly against their motivation and mess with joining uber guilds and setting up weekly raids, and PvP players (motivated by competitive tests of skill) aren't going to play a repetitive and unchallenging test of effort (rather tha skill).
A) you forgot to mention farmers - they are there for cheaters
you're kinda right... this game is pve-based....period.
Originally posted by dink Originally posted by Database82 They need more content for casual players, but they keep coming out with 20man and 40man instances. :
Yep.
Also, there 40 man raid loot prohibits play from the PvP playstyle too.
Evidenlty this is the fault of the lead designer. I've read rumors that he might be fired because he is so unbending about this. A large part of the community at Blizzcon was alienated by his whole "learn to raid" comments.
Basically, this stuff won't change while he holds the game's reins.
Wow really? that's interesting...I hope he gets fired then haha
Originally posted by paravion Originally posted by dink
Yep. Also, there 40 man raid loot prohibits play from the PvP playstyle too. Evidenlty this is the fault of the lead designer. I've read rumors that he might be fired because he is so unbending about this. A large part of the community at Blizzcon was alienated by his whole "learn to raid" comments. Basically, this stuff won't change while he holds the game's reins.
Wow really? that's interesting...I hope he gets fired then haha
Evidently, Stieg Hedlund, the creater of Diablo, Diablo II, and Starcraft, did most of the initial design of World of Warcraft but then jumped ship to go to work for Perpetual Entertainment (Gods & Heroes) when he found out that Jeff Kaplan (WoW's current lead designer who has a hard-on for uber guild raids) would also be working in design.
It shows in their design philosophies too. Stieg's game, Gods & Heroes, may have epic-sized group battles, but they'll do it with players controlling minions. Basically, each player can control like 8 minions each. That means that a group of 5 players would control 45 units in a battle. That would be ENORMOUS and give the feeling of a grand scale battle. However, you could still do this epic battle with just your group of friends, and you'd never feel isignificant or unimportant to the battle.
Originally posted by dink Originally posted by paravion Originally posted by dink
Yep. Also, there 40 man raid loot prohibits play from the PvP playstyle too. Evidenlty this is the fault of the lead designer. I've read rumors that he might be fired because he is so unbending about this. A large part of the community at Blizzcon was alienated by his whole "learn to raid" comments. Basically, this stuff won't change while he holds the game's reins.
Wow really? that's interesting...I hope he gets fired then haha
Evidently, Stieg Hedlund, the creater of Diablo, Diablo II, and Starcraft, did most of the initial design of World of Warcraft but then jumped ship to go to work for Perpetual Entertainment (Gods & Heroes) when he found out that Jeff Kaplan (WoW's current lead designer who has a hard-on for uber guild raids) would also be working in design.
It shows in their design philosophies too. Stieg's game, Gods & Heroes, may have epic-sized group battles, but they'll do it with players controlling minions. Basically, each player can control like 8 minions each. That means that a group of 5 players would control 45 units in a battle. That would be ENORMOUS and give the feeling of a grand scale battle. However, you could still do this epic battle with just your group of friends, and you'd never feel isignificant or unimportant to the battle.
I have been following the Kaplan soap opera for a while since I quit WoW. I find the politics interesting and there is something about the development cycle of WoW semlls strange so I like to try to figure it out.
Although Kaplan is the promulgator of the current raid or quit BS and he is a grade-A c**k, I believe that he is getting too much blame. No one blames Rob Pardo and although Kaplan is driving the new philosophy I believe he was installed and he is maintained by Rob Pardo.
Kaplan had no previous game design experience and is clearly awful at dealing productively with people (the way he talks down to people like children is not good). These two things are clearly extremely important for a Lead Designer. Coincedentally he(Tigole Bitties) and Rob Pardo (Ariel) were in the same EQ raiding guild which he then took over the leadership from Pardo once work got too busy. It seems to me that Kaplan is Pardo's creature and is allowed to continue because the VP of design agrees with him. Within a year or two Kaplan went from no experience to Lead designer and a lardge portion of Blizzard's most talented people left in droves. We could easily list 5 companies that are composed of large numbers of former major palyers at Blizzard or Blizzard North.
You can blame Kaplan all you like, but its more than that. Its a management thing. I am amazed how little crap has stuck to Pardo. The only way Kaplan's hiring makes any sense is when you consider the Pardo connection. Design position in the gaming industry are not easy to get and are extremly hard to break into at any level. All the various problems you see with WoW today are management level problems. Yet Kaplan gets all the blame. I don't like the guy, but he is just symptom of a lrager problem. He'll probably get hung out to dry, I won't shed a tear for him, but it will be funny to see how much of a catspaw he gets used as. I guess he made himself a ripe target for scapegoating with all his behavior in EQ. It just doesn't add up that this guy could or does have as much power as people say. Hedlund would have left because he knew this c**k got hired by his boss, has his personal ear and would go around him everytime Hedlund made a decision he didn't like.
Blame the manager. Hedlund would have dealt with Kaplan in some way if it were a normal relationship, but clearly Kaplan had his lips firmly planted on someone above Hedlund. And then that manager let someone they know is Grade-A talent leave because of some d**k-sucking. That is one of the worst thigns you could ever let happen as a manager. Good people are hard to find. All signs point to this manager being Rob Pardo.
So I say point the finger at Pardo, nothing else adds up. Kaplan was a little s**t before 2002. How could he possibly muscle out someone like Hedlund? No, it was and is Pardo. How could Metzen and Morhaime give any real credence to someone like Kaplan? They don't. Its Pardo.
Also, there 40 man raid loot prohibits play from the PvP playstyle too. Evidenlty this is the fault of the lead designer. I've read rumors that he might be fired because he is so unbending about this. A large part of the community at Blizzcon was alienated by his whole "learn to raid" comments.
anyone have a link to this? i'd be very interested to read this. thanks in advance.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
PVP is gear oriented too. The best PVP'ers got raid gear first. Of course this will change with the new patch, as PVP gear didn't scale, and now it will scale with raid gear, or close enough.
From my own experience, I was of your opinion ... mainly because I had leveled a 60 Rogue and found it hard to get in raid groups, and my guild wasn't a raid guild. So I took a couple of months off, but now I am doing raids. I was leveling up my druid ...
Someone quit the game and gave me the account with a 59 druid, on another server and side (PVP Horde). I leveled to 60 quickly and joined a raid guild that's friendly to newbie raiders like myself, and didn't require 24/7 time commitments. The leaders are mature and raids are well organized. We use CT raid and Vent. The loot rules are sensible. Now the guild is closed for Hunters as of last week, they were full of warriors and rogues for at least a month.
Raiding is actually kind of cool. Downing bosses in MC, etc. can frustrating. We do wipe a lot. But it's a nice sense of accomplishment killing Garr or Baron Geddon. We got Garr in 2 tries the other night. First time we killed Baron Geddon it took 6 tries or possibly more, over 2 night.
This could get old after a while, but I am having fun. The guild also does lots of other cool non-raid things all the time. So community is important.
Unfortunately, I leveled a Rogue, which was silly of me, as I know that Healers are always in highest demand no matter what game it is.
what i think is that pve is fun and interesting at first and gets boring if you do it a couple of times...pve is like a chewing gum..the flavors are strong at first and as u chew the flavors wear off. but then this only applies to pvp players....pve lovers..the flavors are always there.
pvp is fun and exciting at first..and gets better and better or you feel nothing but its still fun...cause ppl always wanna be the best....and lol-pwn teh nubs
and yes...they do need to scale the level rating of pvp gear...like come on...marshal and warlord gear is only level 65 LOL....all that hard work for nothing.... what is blizz thinking there. yeh stam is good but there are like no other stats but stam??? LOL. seriously.....LOL
Originally posted by zakk_ Most people hate them because they don't like listening to the guilds short bus riders spam vent for 4 hours with mind-numbing drivel.
Actually, most people don't even get this far. They don't want to join an uber guild that is able to do 40-man content, and thus they just leave or roll alts.
This is the point that some of the recent posters seem to be getting away from. 40-man raids also have the problems that other people have mentioned: they become boring after frequent repetition, and they may require players to play with people who are annoying for long periods of time to meet their goals.
However, those are ADDITIONAL problems for the small number of people who actually make it through the huge barrier of entry to even start doing 40-man raids. This thread is why MOST people hate 40-man raids - not why the small minority that actually does them are unhappy with them.
Actually, most people don't even get this far. They don't want to join an uber guild that is able to do 40-man content, and thus they just leave or roll alts. ========== You don't need an uber guild,most reasonably aged servers have what amount to pugs running MC and Ony.
people who actually make it through the huge barrier of entry to even start doing 40-man raids. ========== The quest to enter MC can be done in 20 minutes.What do you mean by huge barrier?
This thread is why MOST people hate 40-man raids - not why the small minority that actually does them are unhappy with them. ========== I'd guess maybe 1/2 of lvl60's run 40 mans.They want the epix,blizz puts em in 40 mans,so the sheep run em*shrug*.6-12 mans are way more fun,they should put the epics there.
Make the folks who want a bigger challenge clear something like MC and at the end only the last boss drops a few items better than the 6 man stuff.That's the way it should be.Would even out the pvp gear problems some also.
1. No one EVER PUGs MC or Onxyia because there is no way to distribute the loot fairly.
2. The barrier to entry is in joining an uber guild and planning weekly raids.
3. Even Kaplan's inflated number (that he says he wasn't sure about) was 25% of the people who do end-game content (only about 25% of level 60's do ANY endgame content - and only 25% of that 25% does the 45-man raids - according to Kaplan in his NY Times interview - can't link due to subscription) - that's about 5% of the player base.
40-man raids are not a challenge. They are a snooze fest where you don't feel important or impactful to the group. . . Just don't do anything stupid and wait for the pull to start unless you are the puller. . . just heal your group if you are a healer. . . the only important roles are pullers/mezzers. This can be said of nearly all raid encounters, of course, - but at least in the smaller raids, players have a more direct impact on the outcome of the fight. More people get to lead/maintank/pull, etc. in smaller gorups.
There is nothing challenging about big raids except getting the group together. After that, they are just a normal raid. Learning to beat these bosses the very first time took some effort, but after that all the uber guilds set these raids on farm mode. . . easy-cheesy.
Originally posted by zakk_ Originally posted by dink
Actually, most people don't even get this far. They don't want to join an uber guild that is able to do 40-man content, and thus they just leave or roll alts. ========== You don't need an uber guild,most reasonably aged servers have what amount to pugs running MC and Ony.
people who actually make it through the huge barrier of entry to even start doing 40-man raids. ========== The quest to enter MC can be done in 20 minutes.What do you mean by huge barrier?
This thread is why MOST people hate 40-man raids - not why the small minority that actually does them are unhappy with them. ========== I'd guess maybe 1/2 of lvl60's run 40 mans.They want the epix,blizz puts em in 40 mans,so the sheep run em*shrug*.6-12 mans are way more fun,they should put the epics there.
Make the folks who want a bigger challenge clear something like MC and at the end only the last boss drops a few items better than the 6 man stuff.That's the way it should be.Would even out the pvp gear problems some also.
1/2 the lvl 60s run 40 mans?
according to mr. kaplan, (you know mr. kaplan right?), there's hundreads of raid instances going on all the time. the total number of people from the raid instances amounts to 33,500 on any given day. now this doesn't take into account people running multiple 60s in different raids, nor does it take into account a guild the might run ZG, and say MC in the same week/day. but it does take into account that if a guild has a timer for like a week, then it counts that guild for the whole week.
now, 33,500 people total on the servers. i've heard anywhere from 5.5 million to 6.5 million total subs in wow. let's ONLY 5 million. 33,500 out of 5 million is 0.66% that's 2/3rds of ONE percent.
to put it in an easy to understand format. say there's a dollar and that dollar is 5 million wow players. your raiders are 2/3rds of ONE penny out of that dollar.
just pointing out numbers, official numbers from mr. kaplan himself (found time to get out of mom's basement to make blizzcon and make some stupid remarks i hear).
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Originally posted by Niber I signed up because of 40 man raids. I realize I may be a minority but I'm glad WoW caters to many types of players.
good thing that wow caters exclusively to it's 0.66% crowd due to a pair of morons they stupidly hired. shame those morons cost them all of their talent - blizzard north.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
But I can't raid that much. I just can't. It'd be nice, but Jesus, I have a busy life. Raiders have lives, too, I'm sure, but I have a lot of things other than MMO that are hobbies. Lots of other games. I also have a fiancee, really good friends that aren't MMO fanatics, people who I can't just talk to via chat.
And it takes weeks, even months, of raiding to get anything decent gear-wise.
I don't hate raiders. I just wish they didn't hate me for wanting options other than raiding that put me on an equal footing with them. Options that I could access in my own time, even if it meant taking longer than a raider to get something nice.
Originally posted by damian7 Originally posted by Niber I signed up because of 40 man raids. I realize I may be a minority but I'm glad WoW caters to many types of players.
good thing that wow caters exclusively to it's 0.66% crowd due to a pair of morons they stupidly hired. shame those morons cost them all of their talent - blizzard north.
damian7 - Are you following Stieg Hedlund's (Blizzard North's designer of Diablo, Diablo II, and Starcraft) new game? If you don't know which one it is, here's a hint - it won Best of Show at more MMORPG sites (including this one) than any other upcoming MMO?
Niber - If you've read the thread, then you might see that that problem is that they reall are ONLY catering to this one play-style because the 40-man raids keep other types of players from enjoying the game after max level. PvP enthusiasts can't PvP competitively because they'll get rocked by the PvE raiders and casual players have nothing to do because they can't access the content without joining an uber guild.
Comments
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
What I always find fascinating in these discussions is that raiders (or 'people who raid' if you use some insane definition of 'raiders') simply won't even discuss any issues like this; they'll go on about how you're lazy, or don't want to participate in the community, or should play another game, but won't even talk about the excellent raiding community. I find it fascinating that people will argue that raiding builds community, but won't address whether that 'community' is worth being a part of. I liked that one thread where the guy both argued that raiding builds community and that anyone who doesn't raid just wants to solo, but would respond to any criticism of the raiding community and whether it's worth participating in with 'you're in the wrong guild, go start your own'.
i'm like a lot of other people, i want FUN. i'm pretty sure the definition of game should include "fun" in it someplace. otherwise it's not a game, it's a job. just like i'm pretty sure job's definition should include "not fun".
challenging perhaps, but not fun.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Everyone eventually moves on to new games to try out what they hope will be a new home.The whole problem with WoW is it has all the elements of recent mmo's.
Repeptitive missions and substandard graphics just dont keep people playing for long with any game online or not.
Want to ENJOY an mmo?
Dont start a guild and dont be a leader or volunteer to be coleader or captain.
Just play the damn game:)
Oh, I know we're talking about the same thread, same thread that prompted me to throw out the raiders and 'people that raid' bit. On the topic of fun, it's fascinating to me that most raiders don't even seem to get the concept of playing a game because it's fun. I mean, so many times you'll ses a thread (it comes up in That Thread too) where a raider talks about how they can't stand what they actually do in a raid but, hey, they can talk on vent and that's fun. The whole idea that there's no point in playing a game that's not actually enjoyable just doesn't seem to have ever crossed their minds.
When I relate my story of leaving a raiding guild (or 'guild-that-raids', heh), you can definately tell who's a raider or not by how they respond to the fact that I left less than a week before I would be out of the trial period and able to do one run of MC and rack up on loot. Raiders insist there must have been some kind of huge drama, or even that I was kicked out, to not want to wait a little longer and go on a run to spend out for some phat lootz. Nonraiders seem to understand that since I found I didn't enjoy raiding, I wasn't interested in going to MC again even for guaranteed purple pixels. I especially find it amusing that many of those same people who can't understand that accuse me of being a "loot whore".
There are so many things barring entry to the content that it just isn't fun anymore. I have other stuff to do.
I like having nice items, but I don't have to have the best. It is nice to know that if you have a weekend all to yourself that you can play the game and see some progress.
Porgress stops at 60 unless you give up everything in your life to PvP, or you schedule your life around the gmae in order to raid.
So basically the progression stopped, so the game was over, so I quit.
A large part of any RPG is character building and story, both of which are locked into raiding in this game. And BC won't change anything.
Current MMO: Aion
MMO Watch: Warhammer 40k Online, SWToR, GW2.
Played: Planetside, SWG, EQ, EQ2, L2, WoW, RFO, KAL, MxO, Voyage, RO,Vanguard,Tabula Rasa, Horizons, CoH/CoV,, Lotro, FFXI
First MMO: Everquest (Tunare Server, Ronin/Tide Guild)
Yep.
Also, there 40 man raid loot prohibits play from the PvP playstyle too.
Evidenlty this is the fault of the lead designer. I've read rumors that he might be fired because he is so unbending about this. A large part of the community at Blizzcon was alienated by his whole "learn to raid" comments.
Basically, this stuff won't change while he holds the game's reins.
A) you forgot to mention farmers - they are there for cheaters
Yep.
Also, there 40 man raid loot prohibits play from the PvP playstyle too.
Evidenlty this is the fault of the lead designer. I've read rumors that he might be fired because he is so unbending about this. A large part of the community at Blizzcon was alienated by his whole "learn to raid" comments.
Basically, this stuff won't change while he holds the game's reins.
Wow really? that's interesting...I hope he gets fired then haha
Wow really? that's interesting...I hope he gets fired then haha
Yep. My source:
http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13231
Evidently, Stieg Hedlund, the creater of Diablo, Diablo II, and Starcraft, did most of the initial design of World of Warcraft but then jumped ship to go to work for Perpetual Entertainment (Gods & Heroes) when he found out that Jeff Kaplan (WoW's current lead designer who has a hard-on for uber guild raids) would also be working in design.
It shows in their design philosophies too. Stieg's game, Gods & Heroes, may have epic-sized group battles, but they'll do it with players controlling minions. Basically, each player can control like 8 minions each. That means that a group of 5 players would control 45 units in a battle. That would be ENORMOUS and give the feeling of a grand scale battle. However, you could still do this epic battle with just your group of friends, and you'd never feel isignificant or unimportant to the battle.
Wow really? that's interesting...I hope he gets fired then haha
Yep. My source:
http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13231
Evidently, Stieg Hedlund, the creater of Diablo, Diablo II, and Starcraft, did most of the initial design of World of Warcraft but then jumped ship to go to work for Perpetual Entertainment (Gods & Heroes) when he found out that Jeff Kaplan (WoW's current lead designer who has a hard-on for uber guild raids) would also be working in design.
It shows in their design philosophies too. Stieg's game, Gods & Heroes, may have epic-sized group battles, but they'll do it with players controlling minions. Basically, each player can control like 8 minions each. That means that a group of 5 players would control 45 units in a battle. That would be ENORMOUS and give the feeling of a grand scale battle. However, you could still do this epic battle with just your group of friends, and you'd never feel isignificant or unimportant to the battle.
I have been following the Kaplan soap opera for a while since I quit WoW. I find the politics interesting and there is something about the development cycle of WoW semlls strange so I like to try to figure it out.
Although Kaplan is the promulgator of the current raid or quit BS and he is a grade-A c**k, I believe that he is getting too much blame. No one blames Rob Pardo and although Kaplan is driving the new philosophy I believe he was installed and he is maintained by Rob Pardo.
Kaplan had no previous game design experience and is clearly awful at dealing productively with people (the way he talks down to people like children is not good). These two things are clearly extremely important for a Lead Designer. Coincedentally he(Tigole Bitties) and Rob Pardo (Ariel) were in the same EQ raiding guild which he then took over the leadership from Pardo once work got too busy. It seems to me that Kaplan is Pardo's creature and is allowed to continue because the VP of design agrees with him. Within a year or two Kaplan went from no experience to Lead designer and a lardge portion of Blizzard's most talented people left in droves. We could easily list 5 companies that are composed of large numbers of former major palyers at Blizzard or Blizzard North.
You can blame Kaplan all you like, but its more than that. Its a management thing. I am amazed how little crap has stuck to Pardo. The only way Kaplan's hiring makes any sense is when you consider the Pardo connection. Design position in the gaming industry are not easy to get and are extremly hard to break into at any level. All the various problems you see with WoW today are management level problems. Yet Kaplan gets all the blame. I don't like the guy, but he is just symptom of a lrager problem. He'll probably get hung out to dry, I won't shed a tear for him, but it will be funny to see how much of a catspaw he gets used as. I guess he made himself a ripe target for scapegoating with all his behavior in EQ. It just doesn't add up that this guy could or does have as much power as people say. Hedlund would have left because he knew this c**k got hired by his boss, has his personal ear and would go around him everytime Hedlund made a decision he didn't like.
Blame the manager. Hedlund would have dealt with Kaplan in some way if it were a normal relationship, but clearly Kaplan had his lips firmly planted on someone above Hedlund. And then that manager let someone they know is Grade-A talent leave because of some d**k-sucking. That is one of the worst thigns you could ever let happen as a manager. Good people are hard to find. All signs point to this manager being Rob Pardo.
So I say point the finger at Pardo, nothing else adds up. Kaplan was a little s**t before 2002. How could he possibly muscle out someone like Hedlund? No, it was and is Pardo. How could Metzen and Morhaime give any real credence to someone like Kaplan? They don't. Its Pardo.
Also, there 40 man raid loot prohibits play from the PvP playstyle too.
Evidenlty this is the fault of the lead designer. I've read rumors
that he might be fired because he is so unbending about this. A large
part of the community at Blizzcon was alienated by his whole "learn to
raid" comments.
anyone have a link to this? i'd be very interested to read this. thanks in advance.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
From my own experience, I was of your opinion ... mainly because I had leveled a 60 Rogue and found it hard to get in raid groups, and my guild wasn't a raid guild. So I took a couple of months off, but now I am doing raids. I was leveling up my druid ...
Someone quit the game and gave me the account with a 59 druid, on another server and side (PVP Horde). I leveled to 60 quickly and joined a raid guild that's friendly to newbie raiders like myself, and didn't require 24/7 time commitments. The leaders are mature and raids are well organized. We use CT raid and Vent. The loot rules are sensible. Now the guild is closed for Hunters as of last week, they were full of warriors and rogues for at least a month.
Raiding is actually kind of cool. Downing bosses in MC, etc. can frustrating. We do wipe a lot. But it's a nice sense of accomplishment killing Garr or Baron Geddon. We got Garr in 2 tries the other night. First time we killed Baron Geddon it took 6 tries or possibly more, over 2 night.
This could get old after a while, but I am having fun. The guild also does lots of other cool non-raid things all the time. So community is important.
Unfortunately, I leveled a Rogue, which was silly of me, as I know that Healers are always in highest demand no matter what game it is.
If your guild is unable to do MC, check out ZG and AQ20. The gear is on par with MC, and there are a number of side quests for each.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
what i think is that pve is fun and interesting at first and gets boring if you do it a couple of times...pve is like a chewing gum..the flavors are strong at first and as u chew the flavors wear off. but then this only applies to pvp players....pve lovers..the flavors are always there.
pvp is fun and exciting at first..and gets better and better or you feel nothing but its still fun...cause ppl always wanna be the best....and lol-pwn teh nubs
and yes...they do need to scale the level rating of pvp gear...like come on...marshal and warlord gear is only level 65 LOL....all that hard work for nothing.... what is blizz thinking there. yeh stam is good but there are like no other stats but stam??? LOL. seriously.....LOL
zakk - that's disinformation you are spreading.
1. No one EVER PUGs MC or Onxyia because there is no way to distribute the loot fairly.
2. The barrier to entry is in joining an uber guild and planning weekly raids.
3. Even Kaplan's inflated number (that he says he wasn't sure about) was 25% of the people who do end-game content (only about 25% of level 60's do ANY endgame content - and only 25% of that 25% does the 45-man raids - according to Kaplan in his NY Times interview - can't link due to subscription) - that's about 5% of the player base.
40-man raids are not a challenge. They are a snooze fest where you don't feel important or impactful to the group. . . Just don't do anything stupid and wait for the pull to start unless you are the puller. . . just heal your group if you are a healer. . . the only important roles are pullers/mezzers. This can be said of nearly all raid encounters, of course, - but at least in the smaller raids, players have a more direct impact on the outcome of the fight. More people get to lead/maintank/pull, etc. in smaller gorups.
There is nothing challenging about big raids except getting the group together. After that, they are just a normal raid. Learning to beat these bosses the very first time took some effort, but after that all the uber guilds set these raids on farm mode. . . easy-cheesy.
1/2 the lvl 60s run 40 mans?
according to mr. kaplan, (you know mr. kaplan right?), there's hundreads of raid instances going on all the time. the total number of people from the raid instances amounts to 33,500 on any given day. now this doesn't take into account people running multiple 60s in different raids, nor does it take into account a guild the might run ZG, and say MC in the same week/day. but it does take into account that if a guild has a timer for like a week, then it counts that guild for the whole week.
now, 33,500 people total on the servers. i've heard anywhere from 5.5 million to 6.5 million total subs in wow. let's ONLY 5 million. 33,500 out of 5 million is 0.66% that's 2/3rds of ONE percent.
to put it in an easy to understand format. say there's a dollar and that dollar is 5 million wow players. your raiders are 2/3rds of ONE penny out of that dollar.
just pointing out numbers, official numbers from mr. kaplan himself (found time to get out of mom's basement to make blizzcon and make some stupid remarks i hear).
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I signed up because of 40 man raids.
I realize I may be a minority but I'm glad WoW caters to many types of players.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I do not hate 40-man raids. They are fun.
But I can't raid that much. I just can't. It'd be nice, but Jesus, I have a busy life. Raiders have lives, too, I'm sure, but I have a lot of things other than MMO that are hobbies. Lots of other games. I also have a fiancee, really good friends that aren't MMO fanatics, people who I can't just talk to via chat.
And it takes weeks, even months, of raiding to get anything decent gear-wise.
I don't hate raiders. I just wish they didn't hate me for wanting options other than raiding that put me on an equal footing with them. Options that I could access in my own time, even if it meant taking longer than a raider to get something nice.
good thing that wow caters exclusively to it's 0.66% crowd due to a pair of morons they stupidly hired. shame those morons cost them all of their talent - blizzard north.
damian7 - Are you following Stieg Hedlund's (Blizzard North's designer of Diablo, Diablo II, and Starcraft) new game? If you don't know which one it is, here's a hint - it won Best of Show at more MMORPG sites (including this one) than any other upcoming MMO?
Niber - If you've read the thread, then you might see that that problem is that they reall are ONLY catering to this one play-style because the 40-man raids keep other types of players from enjoying the game after max level. PvP enthusiasts can't PvP competitively because they'll get rocked by the PvE raiders and casual players have nothing to do because they can't access the content without joining an uber guild.