To whom the moon belongs?

Clever_Glove · January 2004

Thinking back to the discovery of the Americas, wasn't land claimed by sinking your flag into it? The Spanish claimed most of south and central America, and the English and French in the north.

Bush tomorrow will be setting a goal for NASA to return men to the moon, perhaps even setting up a moon base.

The US has flagged the moon does it belong to the US now? No other country has been there. Will the moon be the 51st State? It should be allot easier to claim than North America, there aren't any natives to displace.

What about Mars?

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"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8

Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.

Serien · January 2004

wow...that's a very interesting point

im not sure...kinda awesome to think about though...

one thing i do know though...there was a site wher eu can buy land on the moon

interesting stuff

Clever_Glove · January 2004

I have a bridge you can buy also. Cheap.

-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8

Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.

Dekron · January 2004

I already see the outcome. Bush is looking to make this an international project. Let's just say the base succeeds...I predict a territorial war. And what about the people who already own property on the moon? LOL that's right...not sure if you have seen the websites selling property on the moon, but people actually by the crap...they get a deed and everything LOL The even funnier thing is that one of the sites is sponsered by guess who...the American government....so I guess we thinks we already own it

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Uiruru · January 2004

AHHHHH!!! I dont know if you have heard about this, but some guy claims he owns the moon... He has also basically claimed a bunch of other planets... He sells deeds and stuff to people and this is just WRONG!!! As far as staking a flag in the ground, he claims that this is just an american thing, and since the moon isnt in america then the rules dont apply to him. THIS JUST MAKES ME SO FREAKING MAD!!! YOU CANT JUST GO AND CLAIM A FREAKING PLANET!!! I HATE THIS GUY SO MUCH!!! AHHHHH!!!!!!

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Oh my god... dont ask where i found it

A: 73% S: 66% K: 33% E: 26%

Munki · January 2004

but no!
Korea is stashing weapons on mass destruction on the moon...

And the moon doesnt "actually" belong to anybody, and There would be MANY pissed of people if the US decided to say it was theres, as no "new land" has been discouvered in a long time, there is no laws on it.

Dekron · January 2004

Originally posted by Munki

but no!
Korea is stashing weapons on mass destruction on the moon...
And the moon doesnt "actually" belong to anybody, and There would be MANY pissed of people if the US decided to say it was theres, as no "new land" has been discouvered in a long time, there is no laws on it.

lol...I can forsee some shit going down with the moon like in the movie "The Time Machine" lol....we should all prepare to move underground and our descendents turn into cannabilistic monkey things

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Agricola · January 2004

If you have read all the UFO and Alien Consipiracy therories then you will be in no doubt that the moon is already owned by aliens, who have a huge mining operation on the dark side of the moon, and told us to keep off in no uncertain terms. Thats why we havnt been there again for 35 odd years. Others suggest there are already secret moon and mars bases which we have set up with help of aliens, and whom we are sharing them with

The Moon should be a neutral place where no one or any country can claim it for thier own.

cedori · January 2004

I guess I'm not understanding why he wants to go to the moon again anyways. I mean, whats the point, already been done, the economy of the state could use the funds better else where. Why is it funds go into things like this when they could apply it to better of the people in the USA. Call me dumb, but why are we paying more taxes and all, is it to support ridiculous things such as this? They don't need to take our hard earned money for things like this, but this is only my opinion anyways.

I had no idea we all were so rich for ideas such as this.

Camaalis · January 2004

Okay firstly lets be honest here. It doesn't matter who sells the deeds or who has put their flag on it. The moon will belong to whomever can defend it as their territory. If tomorrow the chinese place a starbase next to the moon and defend it it is there territory.

Originally posted by cedori

I guess I'm not understanding why he wants to go to the moon again anyways. I mean, whats the point, already been done, the economy of the state could use the funds better else where. Why is it funds go into things like this when they could apply it to better of the people in the USA. Call me dumb, but why are we paying more taxes and all, is it to support ridiculous things such as this? They don't need to take our hard earned money for things like this, but this is only my opinion anyways.
I had no idea we all were so rich for ideas such as this.

And now I'll respond to this post. Quite simply, where do you think most of our technology today comes from? We just pulled it out of our asses didn't we? A large portion of technology today, either through theory or actual research, was concepted or researched by NASA for the moon projects. These technologies include saran wrap, styrofoam, tinfoil, super computers, solar panels, thinsulate, and the list goes on. Spending money in this way also does filter to into the economy just as much as say spending it on a 2 billion dollar stadium only this way we get much more return. And to the statement we've already done that, yes we've gone there but saying this is like when Christopher Columbus came to north america the first couple of times. The British didn't turn around and say "hell we've been there and done that" and now looking back I'd say we were a pretty good investment.

Clever_Glove · January 2004

I think the biggest reason no one is disputing ownership of the moon, no one wants it. It's just a dust ball, there is a little water in it.. but not much anything to be useful. Not to mention the 300 million or so it costs to visit.

Now if it was made gold.. or even cheese I'm sure there would be disputes over it.

As far as NASA being a waste of money, do you have any idea what all has come from NASA? Most everything in your house was made better because of something that invented or proven by NASA. (I would contend that a perhaps private companies could do things better, but that's a different topic.)

All and all NASA is one of the few areas we get a return on our tax dollars.

Let's take a quick look at how the government spends our money.

Medicaid                              $118,067 (in millions)
AFDC                                      24,923
Food Stamps                            24,918
Supplemental Security Income  22,774
Lower income housing asst.       12,307
Earned Income Tax Credit         9,553
Veterans medical care               7,838
Stafford loans                           5,683
Social Services (Title 20)           5,419
Pell Grants                               5,374
Low-rent public housing             5,008
General medical assistance       4,850
Foster Care                            4,170
School Lunch                            3,895
Pensions for needy veterans      3,667
General Assistance                    3,340
Head Start                                2,753
Food supplements, WIC             2,600
Training for disadvantaged youth 1,744
Low-income energy assistance    1,594
Rural housing loans                    1,468
Indian Health Services               1,431
Summer youth employment       1,183
Maternal and child health           1,059
JOBS and WIN                          1,010
Job Corps                                   955
Child care block grant                  825
School Breakfast                         782
Child care for AFDC                     755
Social Security                            688
Nutrition Program for Elderly        659
Housing interest reduction            652
Child and adult care food program 624
"At risk" child care                        604

80,165,000,000 or 80 Billion in Welfare entitlements

This doesn't include farm aid, corporate welfare and other wealth redistribution programs. This is just "welfare".

NASA has a budget of 15 billion. That's 18% of what is spent on welfare.

The government spends 63 billion in education. But is NASA isn't furthering education then what is?

The total government spending is about 10 trillion a year. NASA is getting about 1.5% of it.

NASA is covered with money Ungle Sam finds in the couch. It's a drop in the bucket compared to other government programs.

The return on what learn is far greater than the cost.

http://www.ssa.gov/budget/2004bud.html
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/72More.htm
http://www.space.com/news/nasa_budget_040114.html
http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2001/pdf/budget.pdf

-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8

Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.

cedori · January 2004

Hum, will didn't mean to come off so strong and start a bashing war here. All I meant was the US has lots of people starving, the economy isn't all that great and there have been lots of weather disasters happening with a ton of money put forth for clean ups. Is US really that rich for all thats going on right now without having to land on this again is all I meant.

Yes your quite right in your statement, yes we have explored it, done it and keep doing it. That is how we make our world more equiped to live with ease. Yes the future is coming but do we really need, umm remote controls for TV, Cable etc, talk about lazy, get up and turn it on/off. This is just examples of how modern technology has evolved with more to come in the future.

My question is, what are they looking to find up there, what possible thing could help us. I really don't keep up with it that much so I'm just curious what they expect to find or do there. Please enlighten me since I'm in the dark about it.

Again, I'm sorry for being so dense on this subject, just need to ask and find out the why's.

Thanks for replying

Camaalis · January 2004

See the problem is this, sure we have problems here at "home". However throwing money at these problems is not going to fix them. For instance look at Canada, Canada puts far more money per capita on welfare then the US does and we have just as much of a crime / poverty problem as the US. There has to be other solutions then just put more resources into it. The economy is the same, unlike what most people think the economy will fix itself. Ask any educated economist and he will tell you that fiscal improvements do nothing to an economy in the long run. Even in the short run the gains are minimal. Often by the time people know that the economy is going bad and put money into it that its too late. People doesn't understand the concept of lag, in the economy there is about a 1 - 2 year lag. That means things that happen won't actually be seen until quite a while afterwards. People are upset with how the US economy is doing right now without thinking about the cause. The cause being that the very heart of the US economy was destroyed. With the destruction of the two towers the NYSE was forced to shutdown for a while and put the economy in a tail spin. You can't just rebuild that over night, and since lag occurs the recession has been the cause of that. Pouring more money won't fix it, only time will.

Plus your forgetting your saying that these technologies are conviences without remember that alot of these technologies also greatly improve efficiencies. Think about robotics and tupperware. Without those two things our standards of living would be significantly reduced. The same applies now to future technologies and efficiency gains. If stop spending the money on NASA the technology will not be able to advance as fast and thus we will be worse off in the long run. Perfect example is the new fuels coming out most of them are concepts or theory created by NASA when trying to find a cheaper source of fuel for their rockets.

It all boils down to this. Technology is an investment, you have to spend a little now to gain alot down the road.

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Bartle Test #234954
SKE
Socializer: 66 %
Explorer: 60%
Killer: 60%
Achiever: 13%

Dekron · January 2004

One point I would like to make...it's exactly the amount of money we are putting into welfare which is the problem. It needs to be reduced. Call me whatever you want...but I don't think it is my job to pay for help for lazy ass people who don't have a job. welfare should be shut down and they should fend for themselves. I know its harsh..but hey...I don't like the idea of me working and have nearly 22% of my income taken from taxes to support a program to encourage people to be lazy.

As for the tupperware comment you made...I just thought it was kind of humourous saying that our standards of living wouldn;t be as high without robotics and tupperware...lol...I dont even use that crap!

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Clever_Glove · January 2004

Originally posted by cedori
All I meant was the US has lots of people starving, the economy isn't all that great and there have been lots of weather disasters happening with a ton of money put forth for clean ups. Is US really that rich for all thats going on right now without having to land on this again is all I meant.

The only starving in the US are people that on a Fad diet, or are to dumb to look one of many places in each and ever city that gives away food. (including every church)

The #1 problem of the poor in the US, they are too fat. Our poor is spending far to much time eating good food and not doing physical labor. Yep, this is a outrage!

National disasters? You must live in CA? You get insurance for that. Avoiding the whole should the government help with clean-ups, what is spent on them is almost nothing... other than the generalized "save LALA-land fund". (witch is a different argument completely)

This like saying "I have 20 grand to buy a car with, but I'm afraid to since seat covers are so expensive"

Yes your quite right in your statement, yes we have explored it, done it and keep doing it. That is how we make our world more equipped to live with ease. Yes the future is coming but do we really need, umm remote controls for TV, Cable etc, talk about lazy, get up and turn it on/off. This is just examples of how modern technology has evolved with more to come in the future.

My question is, what are they looking to find up there, what possible thing could help us. I really don't keep up with it that much so I'm just curious what they expect to find or do there. Please enlighten me since I'm in the dark about it.

Why go to the moon?

A: It can be used as a place to store supplies (and people) for further space exploration

2: Solar panels can be placed here they get sunlight 24/7 the power created can be transmitted back to earth. Enough can be created to power many industrialized nations. Image a near end-less pollition free fuel source. You don't think this is worth a little R&D?

C: As a Mission to mars test

Telescopes can be placed on the moon, we'll be able to see further out into space than ever before with a greater clarity.

E: To build a Hilton there. Tell me you don't think a moon vacation would be fun?

F: necessity is the mother of all invention. Can you even image the breakthroughs that will be made?

All for the cost of providing poor people to eat Big Macs for 3 months.

10 reasons to go from space.com http://www.space.com/news/moon_top10_031208-1.html

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"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8

Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.

BlueFlames · January 2004

Bush has stated that he hopes to take a manned mission to Mars. The base on the moon is to serve as a relay point (1) and as a training facility(2). If you haven't noticed, men nor beast (monkies) can stand prolonged space travel without suffereing demensia or "space sickness". The two of which have car sick symptoms, but times 100. The base is to see if we can play beat the clock on the lack of gravity and the effects of space on the body. Need to do this, to then send men to mars. It's a precaution. Imagine the troves of information that could be found on another planet. What if there is other life?? I think Bush's plan is inspired. He's trying to answer the age old question; Are we alone?. 1.5% to NASA of our total money spent is not that much. There will still be much more spent on welfare and education, and no one is going to be left behind. If anything, this will further our knowledge of the universe we live in. not the world.

Sex can Wait, Masturbate!

Dekron · January 2004

Murt will love this....The age old question whether or not aliens exist have already been answered...There is a picture of one below

LOL

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Uiruru · January 2004

I agree that this is a great idea. As far as welfare is concerned I think we should say you have 4 months left then they take all funds from that and put part of it into a job finding agency (or unemployment) whatever works... Well actually that is the problem, the system doesnt work. We (americans) need to fix it and not just using a little bit of tape, we need to make a whole new one.

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Oh my god... dont ask where i found it

A: 73% S: 66% K: 33% E: 26%

Clever_Glove · January 2004

Trying to fix the entitlement programs means the death of your career as a politician. Everyone that has tried has been villainised by the media. And shortly forced/or voted out of office.

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"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8

Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.

SpitFyre · January 2004

I think this is so incredibly awesome. I can't believe anyone would be against such a thing. I have always looked at my parents with great envy that they gathered around the TV and watched Neil and Buzz float across the moon. I got a small taste of this the other night watching the control room for that little rover critter...amazing stuff.

We do these things because we are humans and we are very smart. This is our destiny and we should not fight it. If we weren't meant to do this then we would not be this damn smart. I am sure people sat around in Europe saying "why are we sending our ships into the unknown oceans when we could use them here at home to deliver goods, etc".

I think there is life out there and as part of evolution, life gets progressively more advanced until they begin to explore their world and other worlds.

What is funny is to think of where man was only 100 years ago. We had never left the ground, there were no electronics, and the automobile was just about to emerge. Where will we be in 1000?

Uiruru · January 2004

That is an exciting thought, but think about this. If you look at the amount of discoveries we have made, you could easily argue that we are in a golden age. And ALL golden ages come to an end. The real questing is when and why will this happen. It happened to the Romans and it could easily happen to us.

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Oh my god... dont ask where i found it

A: 73% S: 66% K: 33% E: 26%

heartless · January 2004

The moon belongs to me. I own it, end of story.

BuMnAcHaIr · January 2004

Golden age? Its not a golden age till i find a new MMO game to satisfy me...and itll end a few years after that when im bored and need a new one~

One kick in the face is better then two.

zentusken · January 2004

Listen, i am one of the biggest advocates of scienc eu can possibely find. But this idea to put a station on the moon at this point in time is INSANE. First of all this is just one big publicity stunt by Bush. Secondly the cost of establishing a station on the moon would cost at LEAST 500billion to one trillion! Now before u go off and start to blab about how thats not true, those figures comes straight from the people at NASA. Im all for a station on the moon when the time comes, but atm i dont think its a good idea to go off spending large amounts of cash on a project such as this.

Uiruru · January 2004

Then will be the time? What better way to boost the economy? This is going to provide huge amounts of jobs! Think about it, we are going to just make one appear, we are going to build a huge station for the moon. All this money is going to end up coming back to the economy in the long run. And as far as a publicity stunt for Bush, if it were he would be saying it would be done in the next 4 years, and it would be done if he was reelected, but he is projecting for the next 10 to 15. He is just getting the ball started, someone has to.

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Oh my god... dont ask where i found it

A: 73% S: 66% K: 33% E: 26%

Clever_Glove · January 2004

Originally posted by zentusken

Listen, i am one of the biggest advocates of scienc eu can possibely find. But this idea to put a station on the moon at this point in time is INSANE. First of all this is just one big publicity stunt by Bush. Secondly the cost of establishing a station on the moon would cost at LEAST 500billion to one trillion! Now before u go off and start to blab about how thats not true, those figures comes straight from the people at NASA. Im all for a station on the moon when the time comes, but atm i dont think its a good idea to go off spending large amounts of cash on a project such as this.

So what your is you support the idea. But you don't like Bush doing it. We should wait until someone else is president to set up a moon base?

If you support the idea, what difference does it make who is in office when it's proposed?

See my post on where the money goes, a few back. Bush is only going to expand Nasa buget by 1 billion. Not trillions, Nasa is less than 1.5% of total goverment spending. We can easly afford R&D research to learn more about our solar system. In many ways this is the same as funding populic education. What is more educational than discovery?

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"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8

Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.

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