Zaxtor99, first of all, please upgrade your computer or something.
Second, in two days... Wow.. You can do a lot (sarcasm). No game can be determined in two days.
Third, you asked how many dungeons... Check the map.... (THE WHOLE MAP)...
At level 5? Not much unless you have a lot of money but just like every game... I don't see a lvl 5 with the most coolest armour.
For the history, CHECK THE WEBSITE... You may think it has no lore, but check it out... I didn't have time to read of all of it cause they continuly add on.
Originally posted by Torak Grinding no matter what game you play is always grinding. They all have it. Its a sucky mechanic. All the upcoming games have it, all the current releases have, and all the old ones have it, so if you are going to play or not, grind is a silly excuse not to like a game.
There's a difference between spending weeks on end grinding away at challengeless mobs and killing a few dozen of the same thing before moving on; if you stretch the term broadly then you can say that any game where you do the same thing twice has a grind.
But do your really see no difference between the, what, week or so it takes to get done with any 'grinding' in GW vs what Lineage2 has? Or between a game where you don't actually need to grind at all like EVE, where skills go up automatically andyou can make money entirely by trading and running player-created courier missions or just legitimately buy ISK?
Your statement about "all upcoming games" is disproven by WAR; according to what's been released about WAR you can gear and level up entirely from PVP if you so choose, and a good chunk of PVE content is going off exploring the world and finding things, not repeatedly killing the same mob. Playing world PVP (doesn't qualify as grinding to me by any stretch of the imagination.
And even you admit that it's "a sucky mechanic". Why on earth would you reward a game company for not only including a sucky mechanic but making you spend huge blocks of engaging in the sucky mechanic? Even if it were true that every MMO uses the same sucky mechanic and makes you spend hours at it (which it's not), why would you bother to play at all? I could just watch TV, it's more fun and more intellectually stimulating than grinding, and that's hardly my only option for entertainment.
I think L2 has the best artwork out of all the MMO's out there. I also think that the animations are fluid. I like the fact that you have open pvp, clan wars, and castle sieges. I like the class progression system. What I don't like is that you won't reach most of that stuff until you've grinded for 3+ months, or that you need soulshots to make it at all in the world, or that everything is so damn expensive you might as well buy money off line, or that there are bot trains all over the place. I'm sure I missed something. Oh yes...if your not a caster or archer, good luck.
I can siege and do more with the castles than you can in L2. I can own a house and a guild house. I can place things for sale on my merchant, instead of a created character. I can customize my character in great detail, in both armor and features and still go on huge raids and seiges. I can take part in siege warfare from day one, not 3+ months down the road. I can get decent armor and weapons in a reasonable amount of time. I don't even have to buy soulshots, nor does anything like that exist that can unbalance a character. Tanks have a real role in RvR, even though casters still are supreme 1 on 1. And this is to say the least about DAoC.
Lineage 2 is great if you find grinding the same mob hours and hours over and over again for months and months. But for the person with a life, we choose better games.
What this comes down to, really, is the degree to which a player likes and/or tolerates grinding.
It's true that *all* games have some grinding element to them. But it's also true that the amount of grinding required by L2 is extreme, so that it makes the issue of one's attitude toward grinding in general a central part of whether one will like the game at all. Based on subscription numbers, the amount of gamers in the west who like that kind of game design is relatively small. That's not necesarily a bad thing for the people who like L2, however, but it does seem to be the case that there is a broad disagreement between the gamers in the "West" and the ones in Asia about game design.
There's a difference between spending weeks on end grinding away at challengeless mobs and killing a few dozen of the same thing before moving on; if you stretch the term broadly then you can say that any game where you do the same thing twice has a grind. But do your really see no difference between the, what, week or so it takes to get done with any 'grinding' in GW vs what Lineage2 has? Or between a game where you don't actually need to grind at all like EVE, where skills go up automatically andyou can make money entirely by trading and running player-created courier missions or just legitimately buy ISK? Yes the grind is hard in L2 but I'm not to worried about hitting level cap so it doesn't get under my skin as much I guess. I do the same things in L2 as I do in other games. I solo a bit, I group a bit, I BS with the people I know ingame, I check out the shops, buy and sell a bit. I just enjoy the L2 world more then in other games. I like the style, the seamless world, the atmosphere and the community. In addition, there is always an element of "risk" in everything you do. Your statement about "all upcoming games" is disproven by WAR; according to what's been released about WAR you can gear and level up entirely from PVP if you so choose, and a good chunk of PVE content is going off exploring the world and finding things, not repeatedly killing the same mob. Playing world PVP (doesn't qualify as grinding to me by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not up on WAR right now. I will check it out, thanks And even you admit that it's "a sucky mechanic". Why on earth would you reward a game company for not only including a sucky mechanic but making you spend huge blocks of engaging in the sucky mechanic? Even if it were true that every MMO uses the same sucky mechanic and makes you spend hours at it (which it's not), why would you bother to play at all? I could just watch TV, it's more fun and more intellectually stimulating than grinding, and that's hardly my only option for entertainment. Well, I'm involved in the community. My guild helped me through some of the tougher times, cut me some very good deals on valuable items and get me into the PvP. We have a guild hall so I get free buffs and teleports to hunting spots which makes a world of difference. Leveling is not that bad when you have 24/7 buffs and guildies always grouping with you. SO from MY perspective as of this moment, EQII is actually more of a mindless grind because I'm not as in tune with the community. All I know is my wife and a few RL friends. To be honest I don't even know why I should be trying to level up in EQII other then getting better loot and and a higher number. It impacts nothing. EQII could use a class like the SWG entertainer. To me a game like WoW was not as much fun mainly because I couldn't hook up with any decent people. (I'm not saying they aren't in WoW but they are much harder to find) GW was even worse then it comes to community. These games do not promote community. They are "gameplay" focused. As a WoW player I had no real (mechanical) need for anyone. You can literally solo to level cap. I needed to interact with no one by my 3 rd toon. I just had a guild to chatter with while I leveled. The only function a guild has in WoW is to raid. I know how we both feel about raiding. I have a pretty good time with the people I know in L2. Moreso then in SWG and EQII which I am playing right now because I haven't gotten into the community yet. Its kinda dull and all I have to do is grind at quest. (I'm low level in both games) The EQII community looks very promissing however. The EQII crowd seems far more "mello" and social. The SWG crowd...I don't know what to make of them. There are alot of embitered vets who are generally not to friendly and then there are tons and tons of annoying Jedi who continously try to challenge you to duels. (I get the impression these types are the younger players) I can't set foot in a starport without getting about 3 or 4 challenges before I make a step. To me the community is what makes an MMO. When I want a good RPG I can turn on Oblivion or NWN. (By the way Spellforce 2 is pretty good also if you are into fantasy RTS with a bit of RPG thrown in)
Originally posted by Torak Grinding no matter what game you play is always grinding. They all have it. Its a sucky mechanic. All the upcoming games have it, all the current releases have, and all the old ones have it, so if you are going to play or not, grind is a silly excuse not to like a game.
There's a difference between spending weeks on end grinding away at challengeless mobs and killing a few dozen of the same thing before moving on; if you stretch the term broadly then you can say that any game where you do the same thing twice has a grind.
But do your really see no difference between the, what, week or so it takes to get done with any 'grinding' in GW vs what Lineage2 has? Or between a game where you don't actually need to grind at all like EVE, wher skiells go up automatically andyou can make money entirely by trading and running player-created courier missions or just legitimately buy ISK?
Your statement about "all upcoming games" is disproven by WAR; according to what's been released about WAR you can gear and level up entirely from PVP if you so choose, and a good chunk of PVE content is going off exploring the world and finding things, not repeatedly killing the same mob. Playing world PVP (doesn't qualify as grinding to me by any stretch of the imagination.
And even you admit that it's "a sucky mechanic". Why on earth would you reward a game company for not only including a sucky mechanic but making you spend huge blocks of engaging in the sucky mechanic? Even if it were true that every MMO uses the same sucky mechanic and makes you spend hours at it (which it's not), why would you bother to play at all? I could just watch TV, it's more fun and more intellectually stimulating than grinding, and that's hardly my only option for entertainment.
Pantastic, let me try to help you understand why.
Because even grinding doesn't suck if you are grinding with friends.
Because even a game that has some things in it that you love may also have some things that aren't your cup of tea, such as too long of a grind - it isn't like ANY game out today is perfect.
Because grinding is tolerable if you like the way the game mechanics work, if the interface is decent, if the world, your character, the mobs and the battle effects are entertaining to look at while you grind.
Because if you are grinding to reach a goal (level 40 in Everquest for example, so that you can join your beloved guildies to explore a new plane of power that you were too low level to participate in before, or so that you could learn a new skill to make you useful in a castle siege in L2), then you don't feel as though you are just "wasting" your time.
Because if you love the game lore, community, world, your friends, your character, your class, your skills, but ONLY hate just the harder grind that you have to do for 10 levels or so in L2, your one little nit-pick feels moot next to all of the other things you may enjoy in the game, and you consider it a worthy sacrifice to participate in the virtual world that you enjoy.
I hate the grind of real life (working 8-5, 5 days a week, doing the same crap over and over) but I do it because the rewards far outweight the pain of the grind. And real life has the biggest grind ever - you may have to grind for 55+ years - and yet life is still the most enjoyable massively multiplayer game of all.
I'm not at all trying to change your mind, I have no expectations of getting through your hard head I just wanted to give you a different perspective on it since you seem so baffled as to why people who you hear complain about grinding in a game yet they choose to play it.
Originally posted by Novaseeker What this comes down to, really, is the degree to which a player likes and/or tolerates grinding.
It's true that *all* games have some grinding element to them. But it's also true that the amount of grinding required by L2 is extreme, so that it makes the issue of one's attitude toward grinding in general a central part of whether one will like the game at all. Based on subscription numbers, the amount of gamers in the west who like that kind of game design is relatively small. That's not necesarily a bad thing for the people who like L2, however, but it does seem to be the case that there is a broad disagreement between the gamers in the "West" and the ones in Asia about game design.
Exactly...tbh i see most, not all but a huge chunk of NA MMO players as wat i call "WoWers", those who likes stuff handed to them on a silver plate, and instead of actually coming up with strategies or builds they simply use cookie cutters build or strategy or "ZERG" the hell out of PvP. Grinding, earning your own gear seems like be very very disliked in this population, and that is the exact opposite from the Asian gamers and the developers who loves challenages and most would rather "earn" their gears and brag about it. L2 is developed by a Korean company with the mindset of an Asian gamer, so of course it'll be a tough grind as well as somewat boring farming for money. However, the PvP aspect of this game is excellent and if properly executed like the Koreans, it is very very enjoyable.
Now lets look at the NA servers- farmers, botters, zergs run rampart throughout all servers. Reason? Most NA gamers simply cannot stand earning their own stuff, buying Adena, accounts, getting PL'd leads to the very profitable and strong Adena selling business, botters bot their acc so they dont have to grind and can still be useful in pvp. In sieges it is rarely if any organize, well-strategized sieges(in my memory there were only TWO organized sieges i've participated in...out of like 40ish), it is ALWAYS about Zerg ZERG ZERG. That is not how the developers wanted it to be...but sadly that is how it turned out to be. The different mindsets between an avg Asian gamer and NA gamer is y a lot of NA gamers dislike games like L2. Wat i'm saying here does not mean ALL NA gamers r WoWers, i'm a NA gamer myself and i played L2 till lv74, I also know many that still plays and are from NA, but ask 10 NA gamers to try out L2 and 7/10 will dislike it cuz its a "grind"
Exactly...tbh i see most, not all but a huge chunk of NA MMO players as wat i call "WoWers", those who likes stuff handed to them on a silver plate, and instead of actually coming up with strategies or builds they simply use cookie cutters build or strategy or "ZERG" the hell out of PvP. Grinding, earning your own gear seems like be very very disliked in this population, and that is the exact opposite from the Asian gamers and the developers who loves challenages and most would rather "earn" their gears and brag about it. L2 is developed by a Korean company with the mindset of an Asian gamer, so of course it'll be a tough grind as well as somewat boring farming for money. However, the PvP aspect of this game is excellent and if properly executed like the Koreans, it is very very enjoyable.
Now lets look at the NA servers- farmers, botters, zergs run rampart throughout all servers. Reason? Most NA gamers simply cannot stand earning their own stuff, buying Adena, accounts, getting PL'd leads to the very profitable and strong Adena selling business, botters bot their acc so they dont have to grind and can still be useful in pvp. In sieges it is rarely if any organize, well-strategized sieges(in my memory there were only TWO organized sieges i've participated in...out of like 40ish), it is ALWAYS about Zerg ZERG ZERG. That is not how the developers wanted it to be...but sadly that is how it turned out to be. The different mindsets between an avg Asian gamer and NA gamer is y a lot of NA gamers dislike games like L2. Wat i'm saying here does not mean ALL NA gamers r WoWers, i'm a NA gamer myself and i played L2 till lv74, I also know many that still plays and are from NA, but ask 10 NA gamers to try out L2 and 7/10 will dislike it cuz its a "grind"
As an American who lives in Europe I have played several MMO's on both U.S. and European servers. The thing that strikes me most when I join a U.S. server is typically (I know this may sound like a broad based generalization) U.S. players tend to be less cooperative and social up front. The also tend to be more "driven" to "finish" a game. U.S. players tend to judge a game by how fast you can finish it (hit level cap) Slow leveling or a difficult aspect tends to bring a game a negitive view.
Europeans tend to (again a broad based statement based on my experience) much more relaxed and more willing to cooperate and socialize. Europeans look more at the game aspects. They will also drop a game and not haunt it after they quit and move on. They tend to keep things more in perspective. MMO's are just video games games where the U.S. people are seeking the "holy grail" of a "virtual world simulator" and are let down at almost every turn. (Many U.S. players claim to want a virtual world but then at the same time get upset when they hear they leveling will the difficult - see Vanguard forums)
EQII is a very large emersive world and seems to fit the "virtual world" description pretty well but many of its critizisms are nit-picky but really affect the the overall view of the game by the general community.
WoW actually goes against what most MMOers claim to want. However it has had success beyond any other game. What we say we want and what we actually like are two entirely different things.
Overall I think players worldwide are more accepting of what a game "is" then us Americans who tend to lash out at a game company when its not the way "we want it". L2 is a classic example. Although it is very popular worldwide (mainly Asia) these players just understand that the grind is part of the game. They don't like it anymore then anyone else but if you want to play you got to deal with it. U.S. players feel that the game should be "changed" to suit them. (although the definition of grind is subjective and varies from person to person so meeting any community expectation is impossible) The most infamous case of Devs trying to suit the community is SWG. The company not only ruined the game changing it to make it more "apealling" but never pleased the community from the start.
Lineage 2 is not significantly more popular in Europe than in the US. It doesn't seem to me that Europeans like Lineage 2 all that much more than Americans do, based on the sub numbers that NC Soft released.
In addition, if it's true that Europeans are not interested in virtual world simulators etc., doesn't it strike you as at all strange that EVE, which is probably the most "virtual world" oriented game out at the moment, was produced entirely by Europeans and has a huge European player base (at least as big as, and probably bigger than, the US player base).
As someone who plays EVE with a lot of European friends, some of whom are more social than others, some of whom are more driven than others, and all of whom are more or less obsessed with a virtual world game created by Europeans, I'm skeptical of the conclusions you've drawn in your note.
he complains about the grind yet i left the boards for a month or two and when i come back he's still on the boards repeating the same tired crap about how he doesn't like L2...wouldn't writing the same thing over and over again constitute a grind?
i think if he took the time that he spent writing all these elaborate rebuttals and used it instead to level in L2 he'd already have finished his second profession quest by now
Originally posted by Novaseeker I don't know about that, Torak.
Lineage 2 is not significantly more popular in Europe than in the US. It doesn't seem to me that Europeans like Lineage 2 all that much more than Americans do, based on the sub numbers that NC Soft released.
oops, I wasn't talking specifically about L2 I mean in general overall. L2 isn't popular in any western country.
In addition, if it's true that Europeans are not interested in virtual world simulators etc., doesn't it strike you as at all strange that EVE, which is probably the most "virtual world" oriented game out at the moment, was produced entirely by Europeans and has a huge European player base (at least as big as, and probably bigger than, the US player base).
I didn't say Europeans where NOT interested in virtual world simulators, what I said is they are more likely to keep in perspective as a video game. Don't misunderstand that as a "Europeans don't want or like virtual worlds" statement. I would never make a generalized statement like that (at least not without statistical proof) anymore then I would never say (like I see so many other people make the ignorant statement) Asians like grind.
As someone who plays EVE with a lot of European friends, some of whom are more social than others, some of whom are more driven than others, and all of whom are more or less obsessed with a virtual world game created by Europeans, I'm skeptical of the conclusions you've drawn in your note.
Like I said, its just a general observation based on my experiences as part of a comment toward fmaalex observations of NA players, I didn't say it was fact. I have had just as many good and bad experiences with Euro players as NA players.
When I play on a U.S. server (IMHO) I am more perpared to deal with l337 speak, trash talking, and horrible PUG's (which is what NA's are famous for) then when I'm on a Euro one. Thats not saying I never encounter it on a Euro server however.
Remember I am stating from opinion based on personal experience not fact. All I am saying is I find the Europeans much easier to get along with as in my experience they are more cooperative and social up front. I never ran into a Euro guild that threatened to boot me if I missed a raid or a siege..... you can find many examples of NA guilds who go so far as to REQUIRE a set amount of play time a week and all sorts of other stuff.
Originally posted by nonjonron I've played alot of the others (I'll name em for the sake of it) EQ1, EQ2, WOW, and Eve. Now, Eve certainly rocks - don't get me wrong. But I'm astonished at the low reviews surrounding Lineage 2. This is a great game. I'm seeing some of the best parts of Diablo and Everquest combined into a well made and fun to play game. This one is good. After quitting EQ1 about 2 years ago, I've been wandering around trying to find something to takes it place. I've played Eve and will certainly play again - Eve is good. But in terms of the whole fantasy thing - nothing could replace EQ1. But with Lineage 2, I'm excited again. This game is impressive. Sure, there is grind. But you know, EQ1 was all about grind. That was an issue? This game is good. I think its a sleeper. Perhaps because its made overseas and not well marketed in the U.S.?
The reason it has such bad reviews is cause of the big screw up of a release they had in NA. Bots, farmers and griefers top the list of reasons even review sites couldnt look passed. Customer service was even worse........they fucked up there shot at the north american audience horridly. They couldnt even translate the game out correctly....so for all the pretty eye candy.....the game was half ass and unenjoyable at the point the reviews took place.
I hear what you're saying Torak, but I think it's hard to generalise.
In EVE one of the most hardcore corps (requires playtime of 5-6 hours a day to be admitted) is run by a team of English and Scots people. The most hardcore alliance in the game (which does kick people for incompetence) is headed by an Englishman. It's ... it's just hard to generalise I think.
In my own experience, there is more 1337 speak among American kiddies than among Eurokids, I think that's true, but I've met plenty of hardcore gamers who come from the UK and Europe who are very achievement oriented indeed. It may be that because my main game is a game that is not really dominated by Americans, but is nevertheless a very hardcore game in terms of people competing and wanting to achieve, informs my own perspective in this. If the European gamers are more social and less competitive/achievement oriented, they must not be the Europeans who play EVE.
Originally posted by Novaseeker I hear what you're saying Torak, but I think it's hard to generalise.
In EVE one of the most hardcore corps (requires playtime of 5-6 hours a day to be admitted) is run by a team of English and Scots people. The most hardcore alliance in the game (which does kick people for incompetence) is headed by an Englishman. It's ... it's just hard to generalise I think.
In my own experience, there is more 1337 speak among American kiddies than among Eurokids, I think that's true, but I've met plenty of hardcore gamers who come from the UK and Europe who are very achievement oriented indeed. It may be that because my main game is a game that is not really dominated by Americans, but is nevertheless a very hardcore game in terms of people competing and wanting to achieve, informs my own perspective in this. If the European gamers are more social and less competitive/achievement oriented, they must not be the Europeans who play EVE.
To be honest I never played EVE. (generalisations are easy, its specifics that are hard, any yo-yo can blurt out a generalized statement)
I agree with the "hard-core" element. You need to be moderately "hard-core" minded to play any MMO. I think in this case we are on the same subject but speaking a differnet language. The Europeans are just as driven as the NA, what I mean to say is the Euro's are less likely to freak out over the game. (either when something goes wrong or there is a change) They are also less likely to try and "force" you into a gameplay style.
Yeah that may be. I know I like playing in a corp (the EVE equivalent of guilds) that is dominated by UK and Euro players, it does provide a different environment which I find enjoyable.
TBH I havent read the 10 pages of posts in this thread, but just want to contribute my feelings about this game...
DONT PLAY IT UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE FOREVER FRUSTRATED WITH FARMER PARTIES, RAID FARMERS, AND POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE.
Yes, many, many MMORPG's have "farmer botting" problems. But here is the difference with Lineage II: Raid farmers. "Farming bots" make it inconvienent for players because they take over hunting grounds, farm in-game currency, and sell to players. "Raid farmers" like we have in L2 camp the major raid bosses of the game, and usually within 2 minutes of the boss spawning have amassed 3-4 groups to take out the boss and its drops. Hardly any clans or alliances on the server can take advantage of this huge piece of the game. We have plenty of both farmer bots and raid farmers.
Not only that, but in order to become a hero class (lvl 75 on main class, 75 on subclass) you need to be in a party of players that does the most damage to a specific high level raid boss. Farmers have this boss camped and therefore make it almost impossible for players to complete their hero quest. Becoming a hero is not just a small part of the game-- its very monumental -- and players reaching this point are being prevented from following through because of the farmer raids that are always ready at a moments notice.
On top of that, people run bot trains hunting a spot for hours on end --and yet friends of mine that are 100% legit and have always been, got their accounts perma banned for using "suspected third party software" when they were 2-boxing a buffer.
L2 is a great game, with nice features, great graphics and content, and great pvp, mass pvp. END. Played CB, OB and 2-3 months, retail. I returned in May this hear, and beside the new addon is great, i waste 30$ for seeing the game full, i mean full of farmers(ebay fukers), trains, cheaters, basicly most of the population started to cheat, and the rest are farmers, and 10% are just legit , and love the game to much. I went to gludin after a few days and unsubcribed, they were like 2 or 5 players and 20 farmers. NCsoft should die, someone should take a lawyer to those bastards. I mean cmon every games has farmers, but here there are everywhere, and if u give them movies and shit, they wont ban the farmers, but instead the ban the real players lol. Besides that i want to try Tabula Rasa, i wont buy anything for these fukers, they are worse then $OE. Plz dont waste ur money there, they made a lot of money from our stupid mistakes.
let me explain the reasons for why there is grinding in an mmorpg:
besides for the obvious of getting exp and money. its also imo to get you through real experience through the game. so you know what spells or moves work best with different kinds of monsters and enemys. gives you a chance explore through the game. the reason there must be grinding is so that people do not just wiz through the game (cuz then they are done and they dont want to play anymore and the company loses money) also so that you dont find the problem that some find in WoW with little kids playing. if there wasnt a grind you would have little kids at high lvls talking about how 1337 their armor is and they wouldnt know what their doing which just causes more anger and then people would quit the game therefore once again making the company lose money.
well there ya go, the reasoning behind grinding, it is essential to have in good games.
[quote]Originally posted by Thunder- [b]let me explain the reasons for why there is grinding in an mmorpg: besides for the obvious of getting exp and money.[/quote]
Not an explanation for grinding: XP and money can be gained from real content, like non-repetitive and challenging PVE fights, exploration, or PVP encounters.
its also imo to get you through real experience through the game. so you know what spells or moves work best with different kinds of monsters and enemys.
Not an explanation for grinding: Grinding involves repeating the exact same pattern on the exact same mobs over and over, the more different encounters you face the less what you're doing can be called grinding.
gives you a chance explore through the game.
Not an explanation for grinding: Grinding is not exploring and finding anything new, it's repeating the same challengeless fight over and over against the same mobs.
the reason there must be grinding is so that people do not just wiz through the game (cuz then they are done and they dont want to play anymore and the company loses money)
Not an explanation for grinding: a game with actual content would also prevent people from wizzing through the game, and grinding makes people like me not want to play in the first place and the company loses money.
also so that you dont find the problem that some find in WoW with little kids playing.
Not an explanation for grinding: kids have more free time than adults to grind.
well there ya go, the reasoning behind grinding, it is essential to have in good games.
A game with signficant grinding is not a good game at all by my standards.
Originally posted by ladylore Because if you love the game lore, community, world, your friends, your character, your class, your skills, but ONLY hate just the harder grind that you have to do for 10 levels or so in L2, your one little nit-pick feels moot next to all of the other things you may enjoy in the game, and you consider it a worthy sacrifice to participate in the virtual world that you enjoy.
What you posted all boils down to that you enjoy the game IN SPITE OF the grinding. that's what I don't get; why not just do something else that is just fun instead of doing something that's fun despite the crap the developers threw in? Why reward them for putting something antifun into the middle of the game and trying to force you to do it? I don't regard several thousand dollars worth of my time as 'one little nitpick'; that's a rather big deal to me.
I hate the grind of real life (working 8-5, 5 days a week, doing the same crap over and over) but I do it because the rewards far outweight the pain of the grind. And real life has the biggest grind ever - you may have to grind for 55+ years - and yet life is still the most enjoyable massively multiplayer game of all.
The fact that you compare the gameplay of Lineage 2 directly to working a boring 8-5 job really says it all for me. I'd rather just work an 8-5 job, get paid in real money, and spend that money on a fun game, than work the equivalent of a job to be rewarded only by being 'allowed' by the developers to participate in whatever good parts of the game there are.
Originally posted by Thunder- let me explain the reasons for why there is grinding in an mmorpg: besides for the obvious of getting exp and money. its also imo to get you through real experience through the game. so you know what spells or moves work best with different kinds of monsters and enemys. gives you a chance explore through the game. the reason there must be grinding is so that people do not just wiz through the game (cuz then they are done and they dont want to play anymore and the company loses money) also so that you dont find the problem that some find in WoW with little kids playing. if there wasnt a grind you would have little kids at high lvls talking about how 1337 their armor is and they wouldnt know what their doing which just causes more anger and then people would quit the game therefore once again making the company lose money. well there ya go, the reasoning behind grinding, it is essential to have in good games.
you lost me when you threw wow into your post. wow is a boring grindfest. 5,000 times moreso once you hit lvl60. so if grinding is to keep little kids out; then, wow seems to contradict that idea.
edited to correct typo.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I honestly don't understand those who think it is.
If you tear away the paper-thin graphics exterior, you really don't have much at all. Almost every player at each corresponding level has EXACTLY the same armor, EXACTLY the same abilities, spells, and such for each kindof class chosen in the pryamid skill system. Everyone is simply a clone of each other, and with the ridiculously limited spell and skill selections at each given level... you're left with fields of a bunch of clone players fighting a bunch of exact replica clone mobs with clone spells and special attacks. It's like getting really far back from a brick wall and looking at 10,000 bricks. Each one is almost exactly the same, and nothing is special. Atleast a brick wall of similar looking bricks is cojoined to make a pretty sturdy barrier. Lineage is cojoined by a million clone players fighting a million clone mobs in any given area to make up one helluva bore-fest mmo with nothing special at all about it. People keep saying the end game is what makes it great. Super. That's what I wanna do, is grind away fighting the same mobs with the same spells and same exact armor as every other clone player as me for 50 levels so that I can get the chance to fight all the clones of myself with the exact same 3 specical attacks and spells as everyone else is using against me! Yipee!
I'll pass for something a little deeper then this shallow game for shallow minds, thank you.
Originally posted by zaxtor99 Lineage 2 is NOT impressive in the slightest. I honestly don't understand those who think it is. If you tear away the paper-thin graphics exterior, you really don't have much at all. Almost every player at each corresponding level has EXACTLY the same armor, EXACTLY the same abilities, spells, and such for each kindof class chosen in the pryamid skill system. Everyone is simply a clone of each other, and with the ridiculously limited spell and skill selections at each given level... you're left with fields of a bunch of clone players fighting a bunch of exact replica clone mobs with clone spells and special attacks. It's like getting really far back from a brick wall and looking at 10,000 bricks. Each one is almost exactly the same, and nothing is special. Atleast a brick wall of similar looking bricks is cojoined to make a pretty sturdy barrier. Lineage is cojoined by a million clone players fighting a million clone mobs in any given area to make up one helluva bore-fest mmo with nothing special at all about it. People keep saying the end game is what makes it great. Super. That's what I wanna do, is grind away fighting the same mobs with the same spells and same exact armor as every other clone player as me for 50 levels so that I can get the chance to fight all the clones of myself with the exact same 3 specical attacks and spells as everyone else is using against me! Yipee! I'll pass for something a little deeper then this shallow game for shallow minds, thank you.
- Zaxx
um, this thread is about lineage 2, not world of warcraft, or so i thought?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Comments
Zaxtor99, first of all, please upgrade your computer or something.
Second, in two days... Wow.. You can do a lot (sarcasm). No game can be determined in two days.
Third, you asked how many dungeons... Check the map.... (THE WHOLE MAP)...
At level 5? Not much unless you have a lot of money but just like every game... I don't see a lvl 5 with the most coolest armour.
For the history, CHECK THE WEBSITE... You may think it has no lore, but check it out... I didn't have time to read of all of it cause they continuly add on.
~Greatness~
Currently Playing:
Nothing
Originally posted by Greatness
Zaxtor99, first of all, please upgrade your computer or something.
Hmm, hehe I just built it bro.
I got an AMD 64 X2 4400 CPU,
300 GB Seagate HD
2 GB Crucial technology RAM
(2) Nvidia 7900XD 512 MB video cards in SLI
...How much more money do you think that I need to invest in it to handle the likes of Lineage 2??.
I guess I just didn't play L2 long enough to get into enough to play it long enough to see all the "good stuff"....
Regardless, I still didnt really like the look or feel to the game, despite its pretty graphics.
Take it EZ...
- Zaxx
There's a difference between spending weeks on end grinding away at challengeless mobs and killing a few dozen of the same thing before moving on; if you stretch the term broadly then you can say that any game where you do the same thing twice has a grind.
But do your really see no difference between the, what, week or so it takes to get done with any 'grinding' in GW vs what Lineage2 has? Or between a game where you don't actually need to grind at all like EVE, where skills go up automatically andyou can make money entirely by trading and running player-created courier missions or just legitimately buy ISK?
Your statement about "all upcoming games" is disproven by WAR; according to what's been released about WAR you can gear and level up entirely from PVP if you so choose, and a good chunk of PVE content is going off exploring the world and finding things, not repeatedly killing the same mob. Playing world PVP (doesn't qualify as grinding to me by any stretch of the imagination.
And even you admit that it's "a sucky mechanic". Why on earth would you reward a game company for not only including a sucky mechanic but making you spend huge blocks of engaging in the sucky mechanic? Even if it were true that every MMO uses the same sucky mechanic and makes you spend hours at it (which it's not), why would you bother to play at all? I could just watch TV, it's more fun and more intellectually stimulating than grinding, and that's hardly my only option for entertainment.
I think L2 has the best artwork out of all the MMO's out there. I also think that the animations are fluid. I like the fact that you have open pvp, clan wars, and castle sieges. I like the class progression system. What I don't like is that you won't reach most of that stuff until you've grinded for 3+ months, or that you need soulshots to make it at all in the world, or that everything is so damn expensive you might as well buy money off line, or that there are bot trains all over the place. I'm sure I missed something. Oh yes...if your not a caster or archer, good luck.
I can siege and do more with the castles than you can in L2. I can own a house and a guild house. I can place things for sale on my merchant, instead of a created character. I can customize my character in great detail, in both armor and features and still go on huge raids and seiges. I can take part in siege warfare from day one, not 3+ months down the road. I can get decent armor and weapons in a reasonable amount of time. I don't even have to buy soulshots, nor does anything like that exist that can unbalance a character. Tanks have a real role in RvR, even though casters still are supreme 1 on 1. And this is to say the least about DAoC.
Lineage 2 is great if you find grinding the same mob hours and hours over and over again for months and months. But for the person with a life, we choose better games.
What this comes down to, really, is the degree to which a player likes and/or tolerates grinding.
It's true that *all* games have some grinding element to them. But it's also true that the amount of grinding required by L2 is extreme, so that it makes the issue of one's attitude toward grinding in general a central part of whether one will like the game at all. Based on subscription numbers, the amount of gamers in the west who like that kind of game design is relatively small. That's not necesarily a bad thing for the people who like L2, however, but it does seem to be the case that there is a broad disagreement between the gamers in the "West" and the ones in Asia about game design.
There's a difference between spending weeks on end grinding away at challengeless mobs and killing a few dozen of the same thing before moving on; if you stretch the term broadly then you can say that any game where you do the same thing twice has a grind.
But do your really see no difference between the, what, week or so it takes to get done with any 'grinding' in GW vs what Lineage2 has? Or between a game where you don't actually need to grind at all like EVE, wher skiells go up automatically andyou can make money entirely by trading and running player-created courier missions or just legitimately buy ISK?
Your statement about "all upcoming games" is disproven by WAR; according to what's been released about WAR you can gear and level up entirely from PVP if you so choose, and a good chunk of PVE content is going off exploring the world and finding things, not repeatedly killing the same mob. Playing world PVP (doesn't qualify as grinding to me by any stretch of the imagination.
And even you admit that it's "a sucky mechanic". Why on earth would you reward a game company for not only including a sucky mechanic but making you spend huge blocks of engaging in the sucky mechanic? Even if it were true that every MMO uses the same sucky mechanic and makes you spend hours at it (which it's not), why would you bother to play at all? I could just watch TV, it's more fun and more intellectually stimulating than grinding, and that's hardly my only option for entertainment.
Pantastic, let me try to help you understand why.
Because even grinding doesn't suck if you are grinding with friends.
Because even a game that has some things in it that you love may also have some things that aren't your cup of tea, such as too long of a grind - it isn't like ANY game out today is perfect.
Because grinding is tolerable if you like the way the game mechanics work, if the interface is decent, if the world, your character, the mobs and the battle effects are entertaining to look at while you grind.
Because if you are grinding to reach a goal (level 40 in Everquest for example, so that you can join your beloved guildies to explore a new plane of power that you were too low level to participate in before, or so that you could learn a new skill to make you useful in a castle siege in L2), then you don't feel as though you are just "wasting" your time.
Because if you love the game lore, community, world, your friends, your character, your class, your skills, but ONLY hate just the harder grind that you have to do for 10 levels or so in L2, your one little nit-pick feels moot next to all of the other things you may enjoy in the game, and you consider it a worthy sacrifice to participate in the virtual world that you enjoy.
I hate the grind of real life (working 8-5, 5 days a week, doing the same crap over and over) but I do it because the rewards far outweight the pain of the grind. And real life has the biggest grind ever - you may have to grind for 55+ years - and yet life is still the most enjoyable massively multiplayer game of all.
I'm not at all trying to change your mind, I have no expectations of getting through your hard head
I just wanted to give you a different perspective on it since you seem so baffled as to why people who you hear complain about grinding in a game yet they choose to play it.
Now lets look at the NA servers- farmers, botters, zergs run rampart throughout all servers. Reason? Most NA gamers simply cannot stand earning their own stuff, buying Adena, accounts, getting PL'd leads to the very profitable and strong Adena selling business, botters bot their acc so they dont have to grind and can still be useful in pvp. In sieges it is rarely if any organize, well-strategized sieges(in my memory there were only TWO organized sieges i've participated in...out of like 40ish), it is ALWAYS about Zerg ZERG ZERG. That is not how the developers wanted it to be...but sadly that is how it turned out to be. The different mindsets between an avg Asian gamer and NA gamer is y a lot of NA gamers dislike games like L2. Wat i'm saying here does not mean ALL NA gamers r WoWers, i'm a NA gamer myself and i played L2 till lv74, I also know many that still plays and are from NA, but ask 10 NA gamers to try out L2 and 7/10 will dislike it cuz its a "grind"
As an American who lives in Europe I have played several MMO's on both U.S. and European servers. The thing that strikes me most when I join a U.S. server is typically (I know this may sound like a broad based generalization) U.S. players tend to be less cooperative and social up front. The also tend to be more "driven" to "finish" a game. U.S. players tend to judge a game by how fast you can finish it (hit level cap) Slow leveling or a difficult aspect tends to bring a game a negitive view.
Europeans tend to (again a broad based statement based on my experience) much more relaxed and more willing to cooperate and socialize. Europeans look more at the game aspects. They will also drop a game and not haunt it after they quit and move on. They tend to keep things more in perspective. MMO's are just video games games where the U.S. people are seeking the "holy grail" of a "virtual world simulator" and are let down at almost every turn. (Many U.S. players claim to want a virtual world but then at the same time get upset when they hear they leveling will the difficult - see Vanguard forums)
EQII is a very large emersive world and seems to fit the "virtual world" description pretty well but many of its critizisms are nit-picky but really affect the the overall view of the game by the general community.
WoW actually goes against what most MMOers claim to want. However it has had success beyond any other game. What we say we want and what we actually like are two entirely different things.
Overall I think players worldwide are more accepting of what a game "is" then us Americans who tend to lash out at a game company when its not the way "we want it". L2 is a classic example. Although it is very popular worldwide (mainly Asia) these players just understand that the grind is part of the game. They don't like it anymore then anyone else but if you want to play you got to deal with it. U.S. players feel that the game should be "changed" to suit them. (although the definition of grind is subjective and varies from person to person so meeting any community expectation is impossible) The most infamous case of Devs trying to suit the community is SWG. The company not only ruined the game changing it to make it more "apealling" but never pleased the community from the start.
Lineage 2 is not significantly more popular in Europe than in the US. It doesn't seem to me that Europeans like Lineage 2 all that much more than Americans do, based on the sub numbers that NC Soft released.
In addition, if it's true that Europeans are not interested in virtual world simulators etc., doesn't it strike you as at all strange that EVE, which is probably the most "virtual world" oriented game out at the moment, was produced entirely by Europeans and has a huge European player base (at least as big as, and probably bigger than, the US player base).
As someone who plays EVE with a lot of European friends, some of whom are more social than others, some of whom are more driven than others, and all of whom are more or less obsessed with a virtual world game created by Europeans, I'm skeptical of the conclusions you've drawn in your note.
lol@pantastic
he complains about the grind yet i left the boards for a month or two and when i come back he's still on the boards repeating the same tired crap about how he doesn't like L2...wouldn't writing the same thing over and over again constitute a grind?
i think if he took the time that he spent writing all these elaborate rebuttals and used it instead to level in L2 he'd already have finished his second profession quest by now
/irony ftw
<333 L2 forever
I hear what you're saying Torak, but I think it's hard to generalise.
In EVE one of the most hardcore corps (requires playtime of 5-6 hours a day to be admitted) is run by a team of English and Scots people. The most hardcore alliance in the game (which does kick people for incompetence) is headed by an Englishman. It's ... it's just hard to generalise I think.
In my own experience, there is more 1337 speak among American kiddies than among Eurokids, I think that's true, but I've met plenty of hardcore gamers who come from the UK and Europe who are very achievement oriented indeed. It may be that because my main game is a game that is not really dominated by Americans, but is nevertheless a very hardcore game in terms of people competing and wanting to achieve, informs my own perspective in this. If the European gamers are more social and less competitive/achievement oriented, they must not be the Europeans who play EVE.
To be honest I never played EVE. (generalisations are easy, its specifics that are hard
, any yo-yo can blurt out a generalized statement)
I agree with the "hard-core" element. You need to be moderately "hard-core" minded to play any MMO. I think in this case we are on the same subject but speaking a differnet language.
The Europeans are just as driven as the NA, what I mean to say is the Euro's are less likely to freak out over the game. (either when something goes wrong or there is a change) They are also less likely to try and "force" you into a gameplay style.
TBH I havent read the 10 pages of posts in this thread, but just want to contribute my feelings about this game...
DONT PLAY IT UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE FOREVER FRUSTRATED WITH FARMER PARTIES, RAID FARMERS, AND POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE.
Yes, many, many MMORPG's have "farmer botting" problems. But here is the difference with Lineage II: Raid farmers. "Farming bots" make it inconvienent for players because they take over hunting grounds, farm in-game currency, and sell to players. "Raid farmers" like we have in L2 camp the major raid bosses of the game, and usually within 2 minutes of the boss spawning have amassed 3-4 groups to take out the boss and its drops. Hardly any clans or alliances on the server can take advantage of this huge piece of the game. We have plenty of both farmer bots and raid farmers.
Not only that, but in order to become a hero class (lvl 75 on main class, 75 on subclass) you need to be in a party of players that does the most damage to a specific high level raid boss. Farmers have this boss camped and therefore make it almost impossible for players to complete their hero quest. Becoming a hero is not just a small part of the game-- its very monumental -- and players reaching this point are being prevented from following through because of the farmer raids that are always ready at a moments notice.
On top of that, people run bot trains hunting a spot for hours on end --and yet friends of mine that are 100% legit and have always been, got their accounts perma banned for using "suspected third party software" when they were 2-boxing a buffer.
NCSoft is awful.
let me explain the reasons for why there is grinding in an mmorpg:
besides for the obvious of getting exp and money. its also imo to get you through real experience through the game. so you know what spells or moves work best with different kinds of monsters and enemys. gives you a chance explore through the game. the reason there must be grinding is so that people do not just wiz through the game (cuz then they are done and they dont want to play anymore and the company loses money) also so that you dont find the problem that some find in WoW with little kids playing. if there wasnt a grind you would have little kids at high lvls talking about how 1337 their armor is and they wouldnt know what their doing which just causes more anger and then people would quit the game therefore once again making the company lose money.
well there ya go, the reasoning behind grinding, it is essential to have in good games.
[quote]Originally posted by Thunder-
[b]let me explain the reasons for why there is grinding in an mmorpg:
besides for the obvious of getting exp and money.[/quote]
Not an explanation for grinding: XP and money can be gained from real content, like non-repetitive and challenging PVE fights, exploration, or PVP encounters.
Not an explanation for grinding: Grinding involves repeating the exact same pattern on the exact same mobs over and over, the more different encounters you face the less what you're doing can be called grinding.
Not an explanation for grinding: Grinding is not exploring and finding anything new, it's repeating the same challengeless fight over and over against the same mobs.
Not an explanation for grinding: a game with actual content would also prevent people from wizzing through the game, and grinding makes people like me not want to play in the first place and the company loses money.
Not an explanation for grinding: kids have more free time than adults to grind.
A game with signficant grinding is not a good game at all by my standards.
What you posted all boils down to that you enjoy the game IN SPITE OF the grinding. that's what I don't get; why not just do something else that is just fun instead of doing something that's fun despite the crap the developers threw in? Why reward them for putting something antifun into the middle of the game and trying to force you to do it? I don't regard several thousand dollars worth of my time as 'one little nitpick'; that's a rather big deal to me.
The fact that you compare the gameplay of Lineage 2 directly to working a boring 8-5 job really says it all for me. I'd rather just work an 8-5 job, get paid in real money, and spend that money on a fun game, than work the equivalent of a job to be rewarded only by being 'allowed' by the developers to participate in whatever good parts of the game there are.
edited to correct typo.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Lineage 2 is NOT impressive in the slightest.
I honestly don't understand those who think it is.
If you tear away the paper-thin graphics exterior, you really don't have much at all. Almost every player at each corresponding level has EXACTLY the same armor, EXACTLY the same abilities, spells, and such for each kindof class chosen in the pryamid skill system. Everyone is simply a clone of each other, and with the ridiculously limited spell and skill selections at each given level... you're left with fields of a bunch of clone players fighting a bunch of exact replica clone mobs with clone spells and special attacks. It's like getting really far back from a brick wall and looking at 10,000 bricks. Each one is almost exactly the same, and nothing is special. Atleast a brick wall of similar looking bricks is cojoined to make a pretty sturdy barrier. Lineage is cojoined by a million clone players fighting a million clone mobs in any given area to make up one helluva bore-fest mmo with nothing special at all about it. People keep saying the end game is what makes it great. Super. That's what I wanna do, is grind away fighting the same mobs with the same spells and same exact armor as every other clone player as me for 50 levels so that I can get the chance to fight all the clones of myself with the exact same 3 specical attacks and spells as everyone else is using against me! Yipee!
I'll pass for something a little deeper then this shallow game for shallow minds, thank you.
- Zaxx
Okay Zaxtor, I agree that everyone has the same spells/skills BUT that is only at the beginning.
That tells me you haven't even gotten to level 20 yet and did your class change..
~Greatness~
Currently Playing:
Nothing
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?