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General: Debate: Tradeskills & Female Gamers
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
Staff Writers Laura Genender and Carolyn Koh threw them down today to argue how important tradeskills are to female gamers. Every Saturday, we hope to bring you a new debate. If you have any ideas, post them in the comment thread.
| Laura Genender: One thing I've always hated in MMOs is when people assume that, just because I'm a female gamer, I should be really into the tradeskills and crafting aspect of the game. Personally, I've always avoided crafting skills like the plague; even in craft-centric games like A Tale in the Desert I spent more of my time working with flower genetics and exploring the desert than I did at the loom or the kitchen.
Like many aspects in MMOs, I think that crafting and tradeskills are often projected as a "woman thing" just because that's what "women do in real life." We cook. We sew and embroider. If there was a Pregnancy skill in EverQuest, I'm sure that would be highlighted as a big draw to the woman market. |
You can read the full debate here.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
As a male I don't see what crafting has to do with ones sex or sexual orientation. I won't play a game unless it has worthwhile crafting. I also like having a in game house to decorate with trophies. That could be a carry over from real life though. I do oil painting, have a complete woodworking and stained glass workshop and enjoy building furniture and landscaping. Oh and occasionally I sleep.
I miss DAoC
whether or not gender has to do with tradeskilling, I know the guilds I've been in do have a preponderance of women who tradeskill, disproportionate to the percentage of men who do (even knowing rl genders...:).
However, I can tell you that I, as a woman of a certain age, sometime really like tradeskilling in game rather than, oh, knitting in RL partly because I can do that sort of meditative repetitive stuff that handwork entails, avoid really ugly sound effects of things dying, and not have to spend money on materials or clean up. And people still say "ooo shiny!" at the end product (and generally, I never have to look at the thing a year later and still see all the little mistakes!).
Is this female-ish? Dunno. I was born in the 50's, and just being a gamer grrl at all in the 70's was weird enough. In fact I used to come to wargaming with a crochet project or somesuch for the long downtimes in miniatures games. You can talk and fiddle yarn at the same time.
I like going both ways -- adventuring and crafting.
Shava
The best and most precise crafters I have personally dealt with in mmorpgs have been male.
Not stating anything but my own personal experience
Not to mention what ever you did craft in-game you could turn-around and sell it in-game for big bucks...LOL. Hmm...I may need to give it more of a chance...LOL
.
~Drak
Call it a throw back to reallife if you want as I always wanted to be a fashion designer as a kid, but my dad wouldn't have it, he said that only the Top designers make the big bucks and what made me think I was better then Gloria vanderbeldt
What's sad is that from all I've seen in the gaming industry one stereotype I *would* stamp on things is that the majority of developers try and include content such as crafting under the assumption that it will be something for the female half of a male / female partnership household thus generating two account sales within the same home ( if the game is an MMO of course ) Perhaps this is an off-base assumption on my part, but then it begs the question to be asked as to why half-naked women have traditionally been such an integral part of many, many E3 booths ? To appeal to males, plain and simple and in much the same way.
I guess what I'm getting at is that although gender itself doesn't decide what a given person may enjoy in a game environment, many of the major game studios *do* make that assumption. This of course extends *way* beyond just the crafting part of MMO's, though sadly many people with a very dated, closed minded perspective regarding so-called 'gender roles' are leading some of the largest game studios in the industry and it's all too apparent in most games.
I guess we should all just be thankful that at least when we create a new avatar all males don't have to start out wearing blue, and the females wearing pink ( and skirts at that since *all* girls wear skirts right ? )
I could easily go on and on for quite a while on this one .. something I blog about fairly often at least about semi-related issues ... ( an example being the uproar that lead to Oblivion being re-tagged with an 'M' even though the nudity in question is something that the consumer has to intentionally change in the game files aka is *not* shipped content but rather player-modded content VS. the fact that the latest Prince of Persia game features a main character who runs around topless for the *entire* game and no-one seems to see it as a big deal simply because it's a male character. Since it's basically a rip of Tomb Raider you can guarantee that if a TR game shipped with a topless Lara Croft it would get an AO rating if it was even allowed to ship at all at least in the US ) ... but anyway ... I'll just say thanks for the fun read, and for giving a really great example that it's *not* the gender of the gamer that matters in terms of content they enjoy, but rather something that's more to do with a given individual's likes / dislikes in general. If only the industry would see things that way
I think schmootzig explained the gender thing quite well.
It seems more female gamers than male do like the social aspects of gaming. I don't do crafting in games; it is tedious and not creative like crafting in rl. I did like SWG for the decorating of houses and my guild house. That required a level of creativiity.
I do look for other things to do in games besides killing and I see little innovation for that. In the quests, it's either kill 30 critters or fedex. I like a storyliine where there are quest reasons for killing.
My opinion: females like the crafting more for the game money it creates, but so do many guys. I also see many guilds lead by females and many female officers. Is that the need for control? Or are most of those females actually males in rl?
Well, being a female gamer, I have to say, crafting doesn’t
really interest me. In every guild I’ve
been in, it’s always been guys crafting, but to be fair, most of my guilds had
very few women in them to begin with, so I’m not sure that’s a fair view of
everyone who was crafting. I tried
crafting for a while, but after a while that gleaming sword looked like it was
just asking to be stabbed through a spider, or whatever else was on the days
questing agenda.
However, I could definitely see the gaming companies being oriented
where they would think that’d help pull in female customers. I don’t think that’s necessarily right. I’m sure there are women who like crafting…
but that doesn’t categorize us all to be crafters. I’m just speaking from my own personal experience though.
Sometimes I say I hate tradeskills...I was mostly honest, but I didn't end this sentence.
I hate to tradeskill for grouping reasons. I always have a lot of troubles to accept the tradeskills systems as helping me to group more than grouping would...that is a nonsense.
However, if tradeskills are a side thing, that are not group/solo efficient or require in any way, well, this is 1 more option to do and this option is likely to be appealing between expansions, once I maxed my characters.
I never enjoy when a tradeskill grant a bonus for solo/grouping, tradeskills for me is the last thing to do, AFTER soloing. When you have covered every other aspect of the MMO and now just want some simple to do, to progress in, to see some improvements (not group/solo wise, but tradeskill-wise), yeah, while I wait for these extra 10 levels, that is something I might consider.
As to gender specific? Well, tradeskills gameplay are more compatible to values who are OFTEN picked by women. Tradeskills require patience, something a lot of men have very limited amount in reserves. But many tradeskillers are men, many women don't tradeskills. In fact, the 'elite' tradeskillers are prolly men and the 'elite hunters' are prolly women, since minorities often work extra and understand it all the more. Peoples who pick values that are usually not pre-given to them are usually understanding and mastering them more.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I must say I'm definitely more in the Laura side of the the debate than the Carolyn side. And I do agree that tradeskills are most certainly not gender specific. The most hardcore crafters I've met in MMOs have all been men except one. I don't hate crafting but it's definitley not the 1st thing I look for in a game, and I have no qualms with a game that doesn't have crafting at release time. Crafting gives you something else to do besides questing or PvP-related tasks, but that's all it is to me...something to do inbetween the times I'm slicing monsters (or players) in half
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Played: Age of Conan, DDO, Saga of Ryzom, SWG, DaOC, MxO, EQ2, and so on...
Wish List: Jumpgate Evolution, Star Wars: TOR, Star Trek
If you look at me there be little doubt. 190cm, 220+ pound, a dose of buildingbuilding, hair down my ass, I look quite the male specimen.
However everyone who knows me knows "I am a girl completely". I am not gay. Though having bisexual tendencies I am more or less heterosexual. My wife knows I am not gay or feminine in my daily life but attests to me being a bitch. My friends all know - if've even had gamers in WoW who met me over a while and then suddenly started claiming I was secretly a female gamer.
There's something intangible in my choices, some vague gender-ambivalent aspect in my conduct, that characterizes me "as having a chick psychology". For starters, in SL I like to socialize and do stuff that is completely indicative to females. In WoW I am less a open combat type and fight just plain mean. I find myself the supportive character in Eve. In gender matters though I do exert myself I yield to the alpha guys.
It isn't archetypical that I try and wear lipstick or dresses or like gardening begonia's - it's that I have this psychology that makes me distinctly gender ambivalent. I don't really mind much what people think about all that. My friends know I am not gay, though I wouldn't mind running my fingers through a johnny depp (which most heterosexual males secretly wouldn't mind) and if I would characterize my sexuality it would be - dyke. Yes I tend to play female characters.
My perspective gave me a more entertaining insight into this debate. I empathize dearly with the ludicrously superficial slant the industry takes on female gamers. The industry doesn't get it and never will untill female gamers flood into this market massively and start influencing the creative side.
Then millions of hormonally challenged young males will get a dose of reality when games start reflecting female psychological aspects. Best of all with be the socializing side of these future games.
perswonallyI'mmale and I love to build things, in RL i make minitures and paintings and anything else my mind wanders opon.
As for females I think the world at large has to start to ralize that in the internet gender and race has no meaning.
"You could even say that the female gamer is more multi-dimensional and enjoy more diversity in MMOs and hence tradeskills are an important part of the game for them."
Yeah, you COULD say that, if you wanted to be wrong.
Must be nice to be so much more superior than us...
Nice that a female once again takes advantage of her 'voice' to express how much more superior and deep minded they are.
Who cares whether your male or female in a game? Not me.
I assume girls chars in any online game are always male, faking that they are female, and if they are not, noone is effected or disadvantaged in anyway. I treat people not by sex or race or what frikin planet they come from, I go by the respect they show myself and others. A respect that was not shown in that comment I quoted above.
Well, I find myself in an interesting position in this debate. I come from the Carolyn Generation from the hints I have gathered, lol, and I find myself agreeing with most of what she says. But honey--I really hate crafting. I find it works my ADD so overtime that I either fall asleep over my keyboard or I start bouncing off the walls! It is also a solitary activity, and I crave company. That is why I LIKE MMO's. They are mostly all ABOUT community, which is the main reason I play them instead of stuff like Oblivion.
I really like social professions such as the entertainer and image designer professions in SWG. Sadly, I have not found those anywhere outside that game, but IMO other game companies are missing a great opportunity there. I love being able to make people feel better about themselves--inside or out--and those professions do that. I don't think that is gender specific, either. My husband has an ent toon who does the same thing, and he enjoys it as much as I do.
Even my combat toons are semi-social, most of them. I usually am a healer in most games, and when I can, I combine some form of creature handling with it. I love animals in RL, and I take them with me into gaming. Again, this is not a gender-based thing as I see it, but it is something an MMO affords people that I do not see in other types of games. It IS a part of the "nurturing" side of gaming that Carolyn was talking about, just as the socializing is. I go for combat, but even my master swordswoman had her critters to love.
Laura's point about coming from the shooter side of gaming was a telling one, I think, too. My son is like her--only moreso. I can't even get get him near an MMO.
He is a 360 fanboi to the max, and if it moves, he shoots it, HOOYAH!ing in his headset with his clan buddies. Which is what he likes. He thinks I am crazy with my slower-paced MMO's, LOL--they drive him nuts. Dunno if you could class me as a gamergirl; I KNOW he wouldn't, heh, even though I play quite a few MMO's, for the very reason that I do NOT thrive on "blowing things up."
Personally, I am getting tired of see'ing all these articles about female gamers and crap. Even most game devs have moved away from seperating male and female gamers and just calls em gamers. Lets stop rehashing the same devide and forget the whole female gamer debate.
LOL... As a Guy gamer its just nice to see that the gaming world is not only for the guys. The female population has growen nicely. I think that women are indeed moving away from craft skills and more towards the "killing" side of things.
Tureth the statement that men are less patient then females is true, in a general sense. There are those out there that would like to disagree, but boys and toys are slowly becoming a girl thing too.
*smilling*
Yes the whole discussion has been done before and It won't die any time soon either. As a social person or "trained monkey" I take up local LANs and its still a Guy thing to be refered to as a gamer and the non-gender aspect will have to be considered.
Until then... just enjoy the differance, it gives a little more diversaty to the whole idea of gaming... Not that we need anymore for that matter.
RALMAO...
There is one thing that always pops up with this kind of Discussion is easly worked up people. ; )