Im a fan of IGE. Yay to not working as hard to get rewarded in a game simply because you work in real life and can afford to pay money for instant gratification.
Still like I said, thumbs up to Vanguard. They really know thier audience.
is this really a debate? IGE is like those diet pills that let you sit on your ass while they do all the work. How does selling and purchasing gold level out a playing field? What if you play the game the way it is meant to be played?
Originally posted by Novaseeker] I'm not dissing the use of these tools, Pantastic, but I do not see a major difference between using them and using IGE to cut corners in terms of grinding for money or drops. In both cases it's about a short cut, and the fact that one costs rl money doesn't really disturb me the way it does some other people.
Right, but do you actually play games like WOW or EQ without using that kind of information? Do you go find where all of the drops are yourself, or do you use reference sites, or step back one and ask around about where things drop? Asking around is pretty similar, especially since over half the time if someone knows where something drops they learned it from hitting Thott or Allakhazam. I'm not asking because I feel insulted, I'm asking because I genuinely don't see how you'd play a game like WOW for long (or presumably EQ, though I haven't played it) without using a 'shortcut' like those sites or asking people for the same information.
You say that it's a 'short cut', but as far as I can tell collecting information on drops and passing it around to other players is how the game is supposed to work. It's not like you can slip into the Dire Maul library in-game and find a tome telling you that the crusader enchantment is held by the dozen or so mobs that hang out in one tower in the eastern plaguelands, or that the hats for blue class sets all drop from Darkmaster Gandling, and it seems silly to expect that someone would farm every mob in the game enough to find out where stuff drops. Even at low-levels, I remember hearing from someone about where a good dagger drops or how to get a cool chest piece.
In D&D that'd be using OOC knowledge, I guess. However, its fair to say that part of the social aspect of MMO's would be the transmission of relevant information, isn't it? I think it could be argued that it isn't a shortcut if you find out where a good dagger drops from another player in game. Thats just part of the social interaction, in fact probably some of the closest to classic roleplaying on the large scale. In fact, I once explored an area and found where a new, rare mob spawned and sold that information to another player for in-game currency.
Out of game may be a different matter, though I don't think there is any inequality if the information is freely availble to anyone who searches for it.
Also, simply put, as far as I know it isn't against the rules of an MMO to put information up in websites (such a game would have to be pretty hostile towards its fan communities which doesn't seem like a seller). Its almost always against the rules to buy gold from IGE.
This ain't D&D we're talking about though - CPRPGs, especially MMORPGs, are primarily about statistical character advancement, not roleplaying in the sense of taking on the role of a character and acting according to that. It's just not valid to talk about IC and OOC knowledge when the game clearly doesn't acknowledge them and provides no real opportunity for roleplaying. When you act in character, do you acknowledge that mobs stand in one place constantly until you fight them, then if they die you can wait a few minutes and they'll reappear (or reset the instance depending)? If not, then getting any information about drops from another player is OOC knowledge; they can tell you what they got when they killed that dragon, but it's dead and they already looted it, so there's no reason for you to look for it.
Another problem is that at least half the time (over 90% in my experience, but I'm being generous) if you ask someone 'where does X drop' or 'where does a good dagger for a rogue drop' they either learned it from one of the sites or are only one step from the person who did. It means that asking other people about drops is pretty much the same thing as asking someone else to do a search.
In a P&P game you don't have respawns and farming for items. Plus it's generally bad form to read up on what's in a module before playing it, and you run through a given dungeon once then move on. The whole idea of 'find what dungeon has a good item, then keep running through it killing the boss until it drops' just doesn't exist (at least in any that I played). MMOs are a whole different sort of game.
If you ask me, let the game industry politicians, be politicians. If certain companies don't want to support Vanguard, so be it. Less people, imho, is always better.
IGE never hurt me in any form, in fact they propose options I decline. Some peoples I group with must have accept those options and I group with peoples managing such sites. Never hurt me in anyway. And guess what, telling IGE: NO, it is good for your ego and morale no matter what you say!
Vanguard support guilds like FoH and AL. Those guilds actually ruin my gameplay by removing and destroying the natural grouping hierarchy and replacing it with something trashy and completely unworthy. Someone who is 30% likely to abandon a group is not someone deserving group uberness.
Raiding hurt my gameplay and my fun. IGE doesn't. IGE hurt raiding enforcement, I honestly can't care less.
I am on IGE side on this topic, despite the fact I will never actively engage in their dark actions, unlike raiders who sells everything they can to IGE, despite it hurting their raiding enforcement system.
IGE merely provide ANOTHER option to players, since this option is backed with RL money, I see it's worth, I understand it and I feel it is right that someone who spend significant money gain advantages...as long as I still can do it without paying $ myself, but since IGE has no control on the design level, I have no troubles with them...SoE managing the in-games selling however is another matter, as they may twist the in-game design in order to enforce selling...which would in turn ruins my game experience.
Raiding enforcement REMOVE the natural course of the game and enforce an artificial gameplay on peoples who enjoy grouping. Raiding enforcement is evil and must be contain, not in-game selling. In-game selling enforcement would require to be contain and fight just like raiding enforcement, but in a system where a 3rd party make money from in-game sells, I believe it is easier to neutralize it enforcing aspect. If IGE sell items in a game runs by Brad, I somehow am convince that it won't be hard to prevent selling enforcing. Vanguard by enforcing raiding is aligning itself in the enemy camp.
See, if Vanguard would sells the items themselves, I would be far more concerned than if it is the 'evil IGE', since I know Brad doesn't care about IGE and I have no fear to see my gameplay affected, it would remain intact and nice as far as in-game selling are concerned. If SoE manages to convince Brad that they should be selling the items, I would tend to check that a LOT more with a growing concern about anything I find 'unecessarily hard' to obtain.
IGE are friendly ewoks, I like those furry little creatures! Raiding enforcers are Jawas, I hunt Jawas like plague! Ewoks are extremly nasty on Jawa society, I can't care less since I hunt Jawas like a plague.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Anofalye IGE never hurt me in any form, in fact they propose options I decline. Some peoples I group with must have accept those options and I group with peoples managing such sites. Never hurt me in anyway. And guess what, telling IGE: NO, it is good for your ego and morale no matter what you say!
Vanguard support guilds like FoH and AL. Those guilds actually ruin my gameplay by removing and destroying the natural grouping hierarchy and replacing it with something trashy and completely unworthy. Someone who is 30% likely to abandon a group is not someone deserving group uberness.
Raiding hurt my gameplay and my fun. IGE doesn't. IGE hurt raiding enforcement, I honestly can't care less.
I am on IGE side on this topic, despite the fact I will never actively engage in their dark actions, unlike raiders who sells everything they can to IGE, despite it hurting their raiding enforcement system. IGE merely provide ANOTHER option to players, since this option is backed with RL money, I see it's worth, I understand it and I feel it is right that someone who spend significant money gain advantages...as long as I still can do it without paying $ myself, but since IGE has no control on the design level, I have no troubles with them...SoE managing the in-games selling however is another matter, as they may twist the in-game design in order to enforce selling...which would in turn ruins my game experience. Raiding enforcement REMOVE the natural course of the game and enforce an artificial gameplay on peoples who enjoy grouping. Raiding enforcement is evil and must be contain, not in-game selling. In-game selling enforcement would require to be contain and fight just like raiding enforcement, but in a system where a 3rd party make money from in-game sells, I believe it is easier to neutralize it enforcing aspect. If IGE sell items in a game runs by Brad, I somehow am convince that it won't be hard to prevent selling enforcing. Vanguard by enforcing raiding is aligning itself in the enemy camp. See, if Vanguard would sells the items themselves, I would be far more concerned than if it is the 'evil IGE', since I know Brad doesn't care about IGE and I have no fear to see my gameplay affected, it would remain intact and nice as far as in-game selling are concerned. If SoE manages to convince Brad that they should be selling the items, I would tend to check that a LOT more with a growing concern about anything I find 'unecessarily hard' to obtain.
IGE are friendly ewoks, I like those furry little creatures! Raiding enforcers are Jawas, I hunt Jawas like plague! Ewoks are extremly nasty on Jawa society, I can't care less since I hunt Jawas like a plague.
This is a very good point and I'm glad you made. All this talk about how IGE ruins things, they've never hurt my gaming experience. IF someone buys gold or other currency, good for them. I completely understand why they did it. It's the actual game design of some of these games that forces these type of actions and the grinding just invites farmers but some devs don't seem to understand that or accept it yet want to complain about companies like IGE.
On the flip side, glad you pointed it out, Vanguard actually support guilds like FoH and AL. Raiding hurts these games more then farming I feel. It results in developers focusing on raiding material to keep these players happy and damn everyone else and the gap just grows.
People shouldn't be acting as if Sigil is doing some noble thing here. Yes they made it clear they don't want to work with companies like IGE. Meanwhile they head back to their offices to design and build evne more raiding content. With input from raiding guilds and the focus stays on raiding. If you are a raider, it's great but from what I understand the majority of players in mmorpgs aren't raiders and complain about raiding. So yeah, cheer Sigil for sayign no to IGE. I wonder if people will be singing a differnet tune once Vanguard is released and see how insane the grind is and how raiding focused the game is (even to raiders).</p>
Actually everybody get affected, a friend mine bought 800golds from a IGE site for his world of warcraft account, unless blizzard and IGE have a deal, the economy of th gamers in burning blade have been affected, how?
1st. to get that amount of gold they have to farm a lot minerals, leather, etc. So the affected at this point are the players that in the same zone couldn't find or get the minerals because they were farming it.
2nd. Gives an unfair advantage above other players, when you can buy with 800gold gear that can get you better prepared to high end zone, instead of playing for it.
Maybe you think it doesn't affect you but it does, directly or inderectly.
About Vanguard and FoH, Is something that I dislike, that most of time I gave to go to those forums to find answer to the most controversial Vanguard questions before they post it at their website.
IGE hating Vanguard just gave me some inducement to look at the game. Personally I see nothing good about farmers/auction sites for anyone but the folks making money off it. It's bad for bad for me bacause I have to compete for resources with farmers, and it inflates the economy. It's bad for the game companies because that segment of the gamer population tend to be one of the ones at the forefront of the efforts to hack games. Finally by pushing more cash and items into the economy they make games mature more quickly, which I believe move folks who enjoy that initial "explore the new world" phase to quit sooner.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
I can see the point anofayle is making but i totally disagree and it just means ,this person can't figure out the ramifications[had a blind eye as you will]
I have tried to educate people through many of my posts,but i will try again.
I will use an example that is very much a real one from EQ2.Let me start by saying FOOD is a very big factor in how you play the game or pretty much all MMO's.Now in EQ2 not everyone can make food.So this means you are limited to finding a friend to give you deals or buy from the market/auction house.Now lets say that because of IGE gaming money is easy to come by[fact].Now whenever a very good food item is posted for sale it usually goes fast.So the SELLER starts to drive the price up knowing that it will sell at higher.This snowball effect goes on for a very long time because players that are buying from IGE can afford to pay anyprice whatsoever until it starrs to break there RL budget.
Where does this leave the legit player that has to grind for every gold he gets in the game?I will tell you...it leaves him using a sub par food never enjoying the game to its fullest because the prices were driven up by IGE .This same effect happens to all in game items.Now yoy can say well they still have to farm for the items to make them.NOPE they just hit IGE for a bunch of gold and buy them because they know they will still make a profit from the jacked up food prices.Quite often these same IGE participants are engaging in illegal bot farming that can get all the items they need without even playing the game.[perhaps while there at work or sleeping]
This is called a BROKEN game economy and the only ones that can compete in it are the ones supporting IGE.So no my friend it is not the fear companies like SOE might manipulate the game,these IGE participants just maipulate whats already in the game.I might also add that eq2 for example added there virtual selling LONG after the game originated only to stear some profits away from IGE[why should IGE profit off of a copyrighted product that they pay ZERO royalties to?].I also might add that they asked the players there take on the subject,and made a totally seperate server for those that wanted it.So in this way it does not effect the legit players who dont want it.
IGE's operations are illegal,the problem is that the gaming companies don't have the tools to sue these guys outa business.So often the law favours the criminal's rights more than the innocent.I have personally seen giants like HASBRO shut down websites that were selling information on there games.Would they try to shut down IGE if it came about? i strongly doubt they would risk the cost involved.Pretty sad when law is factored by money not fact.Every tos i have ever seen states right in it that the company owns all rights to every thing in the game,you own nothing and are merely allowed a liscense to play it ,that can be revoked at any time.
Now after saying all this lol.....I strongly believe 100% due to a couple interviews i have seen online,that IGE does pay off some[maybe only one or a few maybe lots]companies to leave them operate in peace.IMO SOE is not one of them ,just because of the way they operate there own virtual selling.I do believe FFXI is one that is paid off,i'm sure there are others.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You know, if the game offer decent INSTANCING, than IGE can't harm or hurt the gameplay in any form. Really, I said it and I will repeat myself, IGE offer me an option that I decline, making me feel good and uber in the process.
If the campers are "hurting the game", it is because some designers didn't do their homework. Limited ressources and teen fighting over those is extremely poor designs and this is the only game that IGE can hurt, and as far as I am concerned, I can only smile and applaud at IGE. The designers have to design the world around the players, not put the players around 1 world. The players deserve the opportunity to be heroes, if you give that opportunity to 100 players per months, than you will have 100 players + some masochists + some clueless folks who will understand they are masochists if they remain in the game...
No, I will never sell or buy any item, I may even report folks if they harass me, I will be extremely clear and made them feel bad, so they leave me alone...but I will group them anyday.
Having an artificial gameplay build around players fighting over limited ressources doesn't work in PvE, I dunno how some folks who bring PvE servers can't understand such basic and fight Instancing...however, lately they start to say that CoH instancing type works...no it doesn't work, it is HOW it has to be done, not doing it that way doesn't work, it is failing...
But see, Brad prefer to say NO to Instancing, thereby opening the door wide to IGE. Saying he fights IGE at the same time, quite funny indeed. If Brad want to bring it to an ultimatum like: It is IGE or US, he might not be pleased by the answer, IGE never hurts me, unlike his design.
If IGE would be like Brad, it would be attacking vehemently all pro-instancing games...but guess what, IGE is praising them to my upmost pleasure. Yes, IGE are making money, but they don't do it against anyone wishes and they don't enforce this. If someone enforce this, it is the designer with a lack of Instancing, which happen to be bandwith-wise to add to his shame.
IGE IS NOT AFFECTING CITY OF HEROES. So to the 0.02$ logic above, you have no clue, you take all games that are shafting peoples in your example, of course IGE will prosper and 'hurt' those games, even if I feel IGE is granting them a service, not hurting them. IF SOMEONE IS BLIND HERE, IT IS NOT ME. If any game is supporting IGE in the behind scene, it is Brad & his cronies. Openly fighting them, yet giving them HUGE opportunities in game...Exactly like mercenaries and highway men were working together in the past. (I still don't think Brad is supporting IGE, but IF any MMO is supporting it, it is his MMOs)
Who do you think benefit the most from IGE? It is the members of the Uberguilds that Brad is catering to, since they can sell their stuff for RL money. The evil at any rate is always the source, not the medium offering another option. Raiding enforcement is the problem, just like any enforcement would be...in the case of raiding, it is extremely distateful.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Wow not giving in lol.You strayed off topic a tad bit.First up the topic is not about the games IGE doesn't effect ,it is about the ones it does.Secondly you are not seeing your own double standard.The point is all about IGE trying to boycott in this part VANGUARD.This is EXACTLY the same as them trying to NOT offer you any choice.They want any game that doesn't cater to them to go under or be very very small.You can't say that it's the games fault for poor design,because that's not allowing choice.There should be all types of choices made without worrying about outside interference from IGE.This is supposed to be about RPG games.The design is trying to make a game that is close to a role playing as it can get.It is not about having ONLY one choice in designing a game[to fight IGE]that is ridiculous.The gaming world shouldn't become communism,it should be about fairplay and fun,not outside interference making money with no care about the players enjoyment.The fact remains ,that it is ILLEGAL,therefore anything illegal is NOT a good choice,nor should it even be a choice.This is EXACTLY the same as saying "i like underground drug makers "because they offer me a choice to save money and fight a poor economy design....Illegal ILLEGAL ILLEGAL.
IGE also reminds me of Napster[when illegal] and the more recent one[kazaa] that can't be caught because they operate from some independant country over seas.I wonder if IGE pays any taxes like the working man does,or is just a total fraud outfit?No matter anyhow they are ruining games while making money off copyrighted products,they have no business touching.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
1. Decent instancing? Vsoh, explained why they are not using instance in their game, instead that, they are using a different system to avoid, ninja looting or kill stealing (which was from what instances were created at the begining).
Well, if you look at the moment many communities that we first met as wow or EverQuest switched to Vsoh. IGE have been trying to buy affiliate sites and they bought one and Vanguard removed the rights to that community, others community have been contacter officials or unofficial communities with high traffic.
So is not only adding a mmorpg, because if you read up the FAQ and the post of DEVS, looks like there's not a better designed mmorpg in the market at the moment or of the upcoming MMORPG. I have my doubts about mythic enterteiment warhammer, but I think between Vanguard and Warhammer is the next expansion of the market and the exodus from some games to those.
Hmm I dunno... if I were Sigil I'd thank IGE for doing it. IGE boycotting Vanguard will only generate more interest in the game. There aren't many games I'm keeping an eye on. Vanguard is one of them. IGE boycotting it just piques my interest that much more.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Wizardry I can see the point anofayle is making but i totally disagree and it just means ,this person can't figure out the ramifications[had a blind eye as you will] I have tried to educate people through many of my posts,but i will try again. I will use an example that is very much a real one from EQ2.Let me start by saying FOOD is a very big factor in how you play the game or pretty much all MMO's.Now in EQ2 not everyone can make food.So this means you are limited to finding a friend to give you deals or buy from the market/auction house.Now lets say that because of IGE gaming money is easy to come by[fact].Now whenever a very good food item is posted for sale it usually goes fast.So the SELLER starts to drive the price up knowing that it will sell at higher.This snowball effect goes on for a very long time because players that are buying from IGE can afford to pay anyprice whatsoever until it starrs to break there RL budget. Where does this leave the legit player that has to grind for every gold he gets in the game?I will tell you...it leaves him using a sub par food never enjoying the game to its fullest because the prices were driven up by IGE .This same effect happens to all in game items.Now yoy can say well they still have to farm for the items to make them.NOPE they just hit IGE for a bunch of gold and buy them because they know they will still make a profit from the jacked up food prices.Quite often these same IGE participants are engaging in illegal bot farming that can get all the items they need without even playing the game.[perhaps while there at work or sleeping] This is called a BROKEN game economy and the only ones that can compete in it are the ones supporting IGE.So no my friend it is not the fear companies like SOE might manipulate the game,these IGE participants just maipulate whats already in the game.I might also add that eq2 for example added there virtual selling LONG after the game originated only to stear some profits away from IGE[why should IGE profit off of a copyrighted product that they pay ZERO royalties to?].I also might add that they asked the players there take on the subject,and made a totally seperate server for those that wanted it.So in this way it does not effect the legit players who dont want it. IGE's operations are illegal,the problem is that the gaming companies don't have the tools to sue these guys outa business.So often the law favours the criminal's rights more than the innocent.I have personally seen giants like HASBRO shut down websites that were selling information on there games.Would they try to shut down IGE if it came about? i strongly doubt they would risk the cost involved.Pretty sad when law is factored by money not fact.Every tos i have ever seen states right in it that the company owns all rights to every thing in the game,you own nothing and are merely allowed a liscense to play it ,that can be revoked at any time. Now after saying all this lol.....I strongly believe 100% due to a couple interviews i have seen online,that IGE does pay off some[maybe only one or a few maybe lots]companies to leave them operate in peace.IMO SOE is not one of them ,just because of the way they operate there own virtual selling.I do believe FFXI is one that is paid off,i'm sure there are others.
I used to hate IGE. I still do. But I think these huge private gaming clans are starting to cause many more problems.
Before reading this discussion, I used to think farmers and powergamers were different. But the more I think about it, these big power gaming clans are much worse. In this post above, try substitutiing FoH or AL for IGE, and think about it. Doesn't it more or less result in the same thing?
In fact, I'd have to say that players are handled far more equitably by IGE, than by powerguilds. It doesn't matter if you are liked by the powerguilds, or are logged on to TeamSpeak, or if you were a veteran or a new player. They'll do business with you.
I cannot say the same for raiding guilds and professional gaming clubs. They only care about their own, and those they like. They camp content just the same, inflate prices just the same, and stifle the opportunities of those who are not willing to do what the other one will.
The difference is, to me I haven't seen a farmer yet who is so boastful and condecending toward other subscribers on an in-game forum, it makes other players sick. The difference is that I don't see farmers doing whatever it takes to beat others in PvP, the more unbalanced, the better, and gloat about how uber their guild is.
I don't think for a moment that if it got to a point where a very few guilds called the shots on a server, they would hesitate to take real money for an in game advantage, or as "protection money," like a bunch of mobsters. I'm sure its already happening in games like EVE online over TeamSpeak servers and PayPal accounts, where the veterans have simply so much of an ability to ruin or enhance a player's experience, they might be willing to cut a deal.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
It has to do with basic economic principles that can't be refuted. The more coin or items are farmed, the greater inflation an economy experiences. Inflation is usually not considered a good thing. IGE promotes and recruits professional farmers thus doing a lot more damage on a greater scale, than a collection of individual gamers who farm extra coin/items to generate either in-game revenue or real money revenue.
IGE provides an outlet for professional farming sweatshops to sell their wares to and knowingly buys coin/items that are duped and hacked. Duping and hacking are obviously more damagaing to a virtual world's economy and IGE could care less since they just want to make money. This makes IGE and similar companies the worst kind of scum.
Instancing does not solve farming, it actually makes it easier by removing competition and creating a limitless source for farming. WoW proves that. I dislike instancing also because it destroys immersion. One truly should play a single box game if you enjoy instancing.
Having players compete and work hard for limited resources is the realistic and fair approach to an economy and mimics real life. It is best achieved however with quality game design which does not include instancing or raiding. Having static boss mobs that drop the best loot promotes camping and kill-stealing. The best loot should always be tradeable, thus giving players the option to earn it without competing at the source, and it should be a rare drop from numerous sources including non static spawns to prevent mob camping. Kill stealing is solved very easily by granting looting rights to the player who made first contact as in WoW.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Dimitrio 1. Decent instancing? Vsoh, explained why they are not using instance in their game, instead that, they are using a different system to avoid, ninja looting or kill stealing (which was from what instances were created at the begining).
Unless they made ressources available to ALL players based on their accomplishments rather than based on attacking MOB 1 before other players, what they implement resolve merely the first layer of the problem, while instancing resolve it completely.
Many in this thread underline it, IGE is far less harmfull, if any harmfull, to a gamer experience than enforced raiding is. As a player I have yet to experience anything negative about IGE, it will just NEVER happen (maybe I am to 'uber' to experience it negatively, maybe the casuals can feel it more). Raiding, it is happening all the time, by rewarding only some persons, especially when those rewarded are less group-worthy than me, I lose all faith and belief. There are many ways to judge if someone is group worthy, and frankly, the average soloer is more group-worthy than the average uber-raider. The average soloer won't quit a group to solo and the few who may do it, they will only do it if you are less efficient than solo. The average uber-raider will drop your group in the deepest zone without as much as a warning or a goodbye with a single gate spell because they are racing another uberguild to a 'critical' mob. Like I said, the average soloer is more group-worthy on ETHIC levels. Now on skill-level, a soloer know some basics on his toon even if he may lack in trusting other to do their part, still, they have some worth. The average raider will wait and expect the group to win and succeed without his implication or his part, he may or not, at his sole discretion, participate. If the group fail, in the mind of the uber-raider, it is the group fault, not his. The soloers usually apologize and nearly panic when a group wipe, they go into justifying their action, why it was better, they TRY and they believe.
IGE never harm, nor hurt, nor affect me in any way negative I can think of. Raiders are usually affecting me negatively by their noobishness, they lack of belief, their lack of effort, they lack of trust, their lack of reliability. In fact, if you are not a raid leader, a guy who is making the guild advance and on who the guild relly, you are most likely part of the problem. See, for every guy like Neku or Veros, there are dozen farting couch potatoe in the raiding system. For every worthy member, the raiding system has a dozens of unworthy. Worst, they may even turn worthy members into unworthy, as they get assimilated by the mass.
Gimme 5 soloers and I will make a group out of it, maybe not the best group, but a group nonetheless and it will work and we will have a good time. Give me 5 raiders (no raid leader, raiders only) and I will get 5 cry babies complaining about the lack of XP and wanting a better group. The 5 soloers might become groupers. The raiders, they are hopelessly cursed.
Competing over ressources belong to the past, and it is someone who get FAR more than it fair share of ressources that is talking. I can wipe a guild like LoS out of a camp I really want, not to mention the drama... I am telling you, this method is outdated, the future belong to instancing. Nothing is to be gained by an artificial competition where you can't even engage the enemy, even if me, personnally, I would be on the 'lucky few' in such a system, merely because I LIKE to find indirect ways to succeed, runing beside a bard was a good way to wipe that group in old EQ, his song hit you, he wins your aggro, you gate and check the show...that is merely example 1. Competing over ressources is not something you want to developp communities, immersion, friendship, maturity and any real value that should lead to 'uberness'.
Jorev: Instancing create inflation, but it doesn't affect the 'item for item' trading, which I think, is something you enjoy Jorey, didn't you? The fact money is worth less should not really bother you, as you can earn items instead of money, or you can provide services to get the items. Money is only 1 aspect of the game, if Instancing create inflation, it still doesn't kill money and it improve EVERY other aspect I can think of. Really, fighting instancing is like fighting medecine because hospital require lands. Inflation is something happening in healthy country, I don't see why a MMO would expect to be healthy and inflation free. Limiting and controlling it can be done with alternative methods that have nothing to do with instancing, the first method is to have 1 item that can be buyed with money only and that can be improve indefinitely, yet always at an increasing cost for every extra HP. You don't throw the baby in the bath tub as Brad say, Instancing is the baby, the future. You build everything around it, you find a system or two to limit inflation. Really, nothing that hard for all the benefits it bring. Of course, some primitives nations refuse electricity, the wheel or fire for various reasons. Refusing instancing is invoking such a reason.
IGE peoples are nice, courteous, happy. LoS/FoH/AL...well...the GuildChat is hell and outside of the Guildchat it is even worser.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by Wizardry Wow not giving in lol.You strayed off topic a tad bit.First up the topic is not about the games IGE doesn't effect ,it is about the ones it does.Secondly you are not seeing your own double standard.The point is all about IGE trying to boycott in this part VANGUARD.This is EXACTLY the same as them trying to NOT offer you any choice.They want any game that doesn't cater to them to go under or be very very small.You can't say that it's the games fault for poor design,because that's not allowing choice.There should be all types of choices made without worrying about outside interference from IGE.This is supposed to be about RPG games.The design is trying to make a game that is close to a role playing as it can get.It is not about having ONLY one choice in designing a game[to fight IGE]that is ridiculous.The gaming world shouldn't become communism,it should be about fairplay and fun,not outside interference making money with no care about the players enjoyment.The fact remains ,that it is ILLEGAL,therefore anything illegal is NOT a good choice,nor should it even be a choice.This is EXACTLY the same as saying "i like underground drug makers "because they offer me a choice to save money and fight a poor economy design....Illegal ILLEGAL ILLEGAL. IGE also reminds me of Napster[when illegal] and the more recent one[kazaa] that can't be caught because they operate from some independant country over seas.I wonder if IGE pays any taxes like the working man does,or is just a total fraud outfit?No matter anyhow they are ruining games while making money off copyrighted products,they have no business touching.
Okay...if I hit you on the head and then you hit me on the head, I go to the police and say you hit me on the head, who do you think is guilty?
Sigil initiates the conflict, not only by disapproving it, but by hunting IGE openly. IGE does the same and Sigil cry? If you hunt IGE, I expect them to fight back. Now IGE 'Might' be illegal, but they have never hurt me in anyway. Sigil with it raiding enforcement policy have hurt me in many ways. And IGE is perfectly legal in banning Vanguard on what they own, just like Sigil can ban IGE (or try) inside it domain. This is what we call, capitalism.
If you ask me to pick side between Robin Hood or the evil Sherift of Nothinham, I will pick Robin Hood even if I disagree with him on everything, the fact he rob the rich and give to the poors (I am neither) really doesn't affect me. IGE try to recruit me, to no avail, I laugh at their proposal and feels quite good about it. Raiders try to recruit me as well, but it hurt to refuse, since it has a LOT of consequences in grouping, which is silly, best gear belong to groupers, not raiders.
I can't care less to know who is right and legal, I care about MAKING FUN and having a good time. IGE never affect me negatively, Sigil did. Who do you think I will consider more worthy for my FUN? Of course IGE will have the upper hand. Now I don't encourage IGE or believe in their cause, yet, I can't care less. Sigil however is dedicated to their evil raiding cause and then they start trashing IGE because they bite back, I laugh and applaud IGE of course!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
This whole gold buying thing is just stupid. Its wrong. Stop trying to make arguments for cheating. Regardless of what anyone says its nothing better than a cheat code for being lazy. Plain and simple. You dont gain anything by it that you earn. Your just a Nub by doing it. Fail at life and get the H*** off my servers. Or, buy off the site admin and jsut have this post removed to feel better.
Wow not giving in lol.You strayed off topic a tad bit.First up the topic is not about the games IGE doesn't effect ,it is about the ones it does.Secondly you are not seeing your own double standard.The point is all about IGE trying to boycott in this part VANGUARD.This is EXACTLY the same as them trying to NOT offer you any choice.They want any game that doesn't cater to them to go under or be very very small.You can't say that it's the games fault for poor design,because that's not allowing choice.There should be all types of choices made without worrying about outside interference from IGE.This is supposed to be about RPG games.The design is trying to make a game that is close to a role playing as it can get.It is not about having ONLY one choice in designing a game[to fight IGE]that is ridiculous.The gaming world shouldn't become communism,it should be about fairplay and fun,not outside interference making money with no care about the players enjoyment.The fact remains ,that it is ILLEGAL,therefore anything illegal is NOT a good choice,nor should it even be a choice.This is EXACTLY the same as saying "i like underground drug makers "because they offer me a choice to save money and fight a poor economy design....Illegal ILLEGAL ILLEGAL. IGE also reminds me of Napster[when illegal] and the more recent one[kazaa] that can't be caught because they operate from some independant country over seas.I wonder if IGE pays any taxes like the working man does,or is just a total fraud outfit?No matter anyhow they are ruining games while making money off copyrighted products,they have no business touching.
Okay...if I hit you on the head and then you hit me on the head, I go to the police and say you hit me on the head, who do you think is guilty?
Sigil initiates the conflict, not only by disapproving it, but by hunting IGE openly. IGE does the same and Sigil cry? If you hunt IGE, I expect them to fight back. Now IGE 'Might' be illegal, but they have never hurt me in anyway. Sigil with it raiding enforcement policy have hurt me in many ways. And IGE is perfectly legal in banning Vanguard on what they own, just like Sigil can ban IGE (or try) inside it domain. This is what we call, capitalism.
If you ask me to pick side between Robin Hood or the evil Sherift of Nothinham, I will pick Robin Hood even if I disagree with him on everything, the fact he rob the rich and give to the poors (I am neither) really doesn't affect me. IGE try to recruit me, to no avail, I laugh at their proposal and feels quite good about it. Raiders try to recruit me as well, but it hurt to refuse, since it has a LOT of consequences in grouping, which is silly, best gear belong to groupers, not raiders.
I can't care less to know who is right and legal, I care about MAKING FUN and having a good time. IGE never affect me negatively, Sigil did. Who do you think I will consider more worthy for my FUN? Of course IGE will have the upper hand. Now I don't encourage IGE or believe in their cause, yet, I can't care less. Sigil however is dedicated to their evil raiding cause and then they start trashing IGE because they bite back, I laugh and applaud IGE of course!
I care about you going to school. English classes are readily available in many countries. IGE is based in some. Maybe they can pay for it?
I don't get it, why If a game developer complain about the damage being done by companies like does, Allakhazam now a IGE property, do something like that? When companies like IGE are now what they are because games like EverQuest that were huge sucess a few years ago, of course now world of warcraft in numbers is the bigger and I admit it, but why they changed the results? What's wrong with them, they are going to act that way with allakhazam from now? IDK why people sell something good to companies like IGE. Basically each search engine now belongs to IGE, Allakhazam, Casters realm and thottbot. For the developers in these boards if you want to appear at IGE sites, you better, be good .
Allakhazam and the like are the same thing as IGE, it makes perfect sense that IGE owns them. Both those sites and IGE provide out of game "legs up" to people who are either too lazy or too pressed for time to actually play through the content with their own brain without outside help. Face it: people use Allakhazam and thottbot to save time, and that's the principal reason people use IGE. In each case the motive is the same, so they really belong together, in my opinion.
Hyperbole
Comparing a site that provides ingame maps or class strategies to one that provides in game money and items is silly.
There is no comparison to a site providing an ingame map of "The Overthere " for free to one that supplies 20K plat in exchange of real life money..
You're attempt to equate the two to further you're MMO bible thumping is disingenous at best .
Regardless of you're personal views one violates EULA rules while the other doesn't.
they should just make a game where you can't trade anything with other players, not money or items, problem solved. I never use the auction house in WoW anyway, in EVE I built my own ships unless i needed any tech 2 ship/items not named occator. Or at least try that on one server and see how it compares to a regular one.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
they should just make a game where you can't trade anything with other players, not money or items, problem solved. I never use the auction house in WoW anyway, in EVE I built my own ships unless i needed any tech 2 ship/items not named occator. Or at least try that on one server and see how it compares to a regular one.
That would effectively destroy the idea of having different tradeskills. Trading is a fun part of mmorpgs.
Comments
Still like I said, thumbs up to Vanguard. They really know thier audience.
=====Dedeko
=====Dedeko
Right, but do you actually play games like WOW or EQ without using that kind of information? Do you go find where all of the drops are yourself, or do you use reference sites, or step back one and ask around about where things drop? Asking around is pretty similar, especially since over half the time if someone knows where something drops they learned it from hitting Thott or Allakhazam. I'm not asking because I feel insulted, I'm asking because I genuinely don't see how you'd play a game like WOW for long (or presumably EQ, though I haven't played it) without using a 'shortcut' like those sites or asking people for the same information.
You say that it's a 'short cut', but as far as I can tell collecting information on drops and passing it around to other players is how the game is supposed to work. It's not like you can slip into the Dire Maul library in-game and find a tome telling you that the crusader enchantment is held by the dozen or so mobs that hang out in one tower in the eastern plaguelands, or that the hats for blue class sets all drop from Darkmaster Gandling, and it seems silly to expect that someone would farm every mob in the game enough to find out where stuff drops. Even at low-levels, I remember hearing from someone about where a good dagger drops or how to get a cool chest piece.
In D&D that'd be using OOC knowledge, I guess. However, its fair to say that part of the social aspect of MMO's would be the transmission of relevant information, isn't it? I think it could be argued that it isn't a shortcut if you find out where a good dagger drops from another player in game. Thats just part of the social interaction, in fact probably some of the closest to classic roleplaying on the large scale. In fact, I once explored an area and found where a new, rare mob spawned and sold that information to another player for in-game currency.
Out of game may be a different matter, though I don't think there is any inequality if the information is freely availble to anyone who searches for it.
Also, simply put, as far as I know it isn't against the rules of an MMO to put information up in websites (such a game would have to be pretty hostile towards its fan communities which doesn't seem like a seller). Its almost always against the rules to buy gold from IGE.
This ain't D&D we're talking about though - CPRPGs, especially MMORPGs, are primarily about statistical character advancement, not roleplaying in the sense of taking on the role of a character and acting according to that. It's just not valid to talk about IC and OOC knowledge when the game clearly doesn't acknowledge them and provides no real opportunity for roleplaying. When you act in character, do you acknowledge that mobs stand in one place constantly until you fight them, then if they die you can wait a few minutes and they'll reappear (or reset the instance depending)? If not, then getting any information about drops from another player is OOC knowledge; they can tell you what they got when they killed that dragon, but it's dead and they already looted it, so there's no reason for you to look for it.
Another problem is that at least half the time (over 90% in my experience, but I'm being generous) if you ask someone 'where does X drop' or 'where does a good dagger for a rogue drop' they either learned it from one of the sites or are only one step from the person who did. It means that asking other people about drops is pretty much the same thing as asking someone else to do a search.
In a P&P game you don't have respawns and farming for items. Plus it's generally bad form to read up on what's in a module before playing it, and you run through a given dungeon once then move on. The whole idea of 'find what dungeon has a good item, then keep running through it killing the boss until it drops' just doesn't exist (at least in any that I played). MMOs are a whole different sort of game.
IGE never hurt me in any form, in fact they propose options I decline. Some peoples I group with must have accept those options and I group with peoples managing such sites. Never hurt me in anyway. And guess what, telling IGE: NO, it is good for your ego and morale no matter what you say!
Vanguard support guilds like FoH and AL. Those guilds actually ruin my gameplay by removing and destroying the natural grouping hierarchy and replacing it with something trashy and completely unworthy. Someone who is 30% likely to abandon a group is not someone deserving group uberness.
Raiding hurt my gameplay and my fun. IGE doesn't. IGE hurt raiding enforcement, I honestly can't care less.
I am on IGE side on this topic, despite the fact I will never actively engage in their dark actions, unlike raiders who sells everything they can to IGE, despite it hurting their raiding enforcement system.
IGE merely provide ANOTHER option to players, since this option is backed with RL money, I see it's worth, I understand it and I feel it is right that someone who spend significant money gain advantages...as long as I still can do it without paying $ myself, but since IGE has no control on the design level, I have no troubles with them...SoE managing the in-games selling however is another matter, as they may twist the in-game design in order to enforce selling...which would in turn ruins my game experience.
Raiding enforcement REMOVE the natural course of the game and enforce an artificial gameplay on peoples who enjoy grouping. Raiding enforcement is evil and must be contain, not in-game selling. In-game selling enforcement would require to be contain and fight just like raiding enforcement, but in a system where a 3rd party make money from in-game sells, I believe it is easier to neutralize it enforcing aspect. If IGE sell items in a game runs by Brad, I somehow am convince that it won't be hard to prevent selling enforcing. Vanguard by enforcing raiding is aligning itself in the enemy camp.
See, if Vanguard would sells the items themselves, I would be far more concerned than if it is the 'evil IGE', since I know Brad doesn't care about IGE and I have no fear to see my gameplay affected, it would remain intact and nice as far as in-game selling are concerned. If SoE manages to convince Brad that they should be selling the items, I would tend to check that a LOT more with a growing concern about anything I find 'unecessarily hard' to obtain.
IGE are friendly ewoks, I like those furry little creatures! Raiding enforcers are Jawas, I hunt Jawas like plague! Ewoks are extremly nasty on Jawa society, I can't care less since I hunt Jawas like a plague.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
This is a very good point and I'm glad you made. All this talk about how IGE ruins things, they've never hurt my gaming experience. IF someone buys gold or other currency, good for them. I completely understand why they did it. It's the actual game design of some of these games that forces these type of actions and the grinding just invites farmers but some devs don't seem to understand that or accept it yet want to complain about companies like IGE.
On the flip side, glad you pointed it out, Vanguard actually support guilds like FoH and AL. Raiding hurts these games more then farming I feel. It results in developers focusing on raiding material to keep these players happy and damn everyone else and the gap just grows.
People shouldn't be acting as if Sigil is doing some noble thing here. Yes they made it clear they don't want to work with companies like IGE. Meanwhile they head back to their offices to design and build evne more raiding content. With input from raiding guilds and the focus stays on raiding. If you are a raider, it's great but from what I understand the majority of players in mmorpgs aren't raiders and complain about raiding. So yeah, cheer Sigil for sayign no to IGE. I wonder if people will be singing a differnet tune once Vanguard is released and see how insane the grind is and how raiding focused the game is (even to raiders).</p>
Actually everybody get affected, a friend mine bought 800golds from a IGE site for his world of warcraft account, unless blizzard and IGE have a deal, the economy of th gamers in burning blade have been affected, how?
1st. to get that amount of gold they have to farm a lot minerals, leather, etc. So the affected at this point are the players that in the same zone couldn't find or get the minerals because they were farming it.
2nd. Gives an unfair advantage above other players, when you can buy with 800gold gear that can get you better prepared to high end zone, instead of playing for it.
Maybe you think it doesn't affect you but it does, directly or inderectly.
About Vanguard and FoH, Is something that I dislike, that most of time I gave to go to those forums to find answer to the most controversial Vanguard questions before they post it at their website.
Dimitrio Darkblade
Founder Leader of Vitae Essentia
http://www.veguild.org
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
~Omar Khayyam
I can see the point anofayle is making but i totally disagree and it just means ,this person can't figure out the ramifications[had a blind eye as you will]
I have tried to educate people through many of my posts,but i will try again.
I will use an example that is very much a real one from EQ2.Let me start by saying FOOD is a very big factor in how you play the game or pretty much all MMO's.Now in EQ2 not everyone can make food.So this means you are limited to finding a friend to give you deals or buy from the market/auction house.Now lets say that because of IGE gaming money is easy to come by[fact].Now whenever a very good food item is posted for sale it usually goes fast.So the SELLER starts to drive the price up knowing that it will sell at higher.This snowball effect goes on for a very long time because players that are buying from IGE can afford to pay anyprice whatsoever until it starrs to break there RL budget.
Where does this leave the legit player that has to grind for every gold he gets in the game?I will tell you...it leaves him using a sub par food never enjoying the game to its fullest because the prices were driven up by IGE .This same effect happens to all in game items.Now yoy can say well they still have to farm for the items to make them.NOPE they just hit IGE for a bunch of gold and buy them because they know they will still make a profit from the jacked up food prices.Quite often these same IGE participants are engaging in illegal bot farming that can get all the items they need without even playing the game.[perhaps while there at work or sleeping]
This is called a BROKEN game economy and the only ones that can compete in it are the ones supporting IGE.So no my friend it is not the fear companies like SOE might manipulate the game,these IGE participants just maipulate whats already in the game.I might also add that eq2 for example added there virtual selling LONG after the game originated only to stear some profits away from IGE[why should IGE profit off of a copyrighted product that they pay ZERO royalties to?].I also might add that they asked the players there take on the subject,and made a totally seperate server for those that wanted it.So in this way it does not effect the legit players who dont want it.
IGE's operations are illegal,the problem is that the gaming companies don't have the tools to sue these guys outa business.So often the law favours the criminal's rights more than the innocent.I have personally seen giants like HASBRO shut down websites that were selling information on there games.Would they try to shut down IGE if it came about? i strongly doubt they would risk the cost involved.Pretty sad when law is factored by money not fact.Every tos i have ever seen states right in it that the company owns all rights to every thing in the game,you own nothing and are merely allowed a liscense to play it ,that can be revoked at any time.
Now after saying all this lol.....I strongly believe 100% due to a couple interviews i have seen online,that IGE does pay off some[maybe only one or a few maybe lots]companies to leave them operate in peace.IMO SOE is not one of them ,just because of the way they operate there own virtual selling.I do believe FFXI is one that is paid off,i'm sure there are others.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
*grin*
You know, if the game offer decent INSTANCING, than IGE can't harm or hurt the gameplay in any form. Really, I said it and I will repeat myself, IGE offer me an option that I decline, making me feel good and uber in the process.
If the campers are "hurting the game", it is because some designers didn't do their homework. Limited ressources and teen fighting over those is extremely poor designs and this is the only game that IGE can hurt, and as far as I am concerned, I can only smile and applaud at IGE. The designers have to design the world around the players, not put the players around 1 world. The players deserve the opportunity to be heroes, if you give that opportunity to 100 players per months, than you will have 100 players + some masochists + some clueless folks who will understand they are masochists if they remain in the game...
No, I will never sell or buy any item, I may even report folks if they harass me, I will be extremely clear and made them feel bad, so they leave me alone...but I will group them anyday.
Having an artificial gameplay build around players fighting over limited ressources doesn't work in PvE, I dunno how some folks who bring PvE servers can't understand such basic and fight Instancing...however, lately they start to say that CoH instancing type works...no it doesn't work, it is HOW it has to be done, not doing it that way doesn't work, it is failing...
But see, Brad prefer to say NO to Instancing, thereby opening the door wide to IGE. Saying he fights IGE at the same time, quite funny indeed. If Brad want to bring it to an ultimatum like: It is IGE or US, he might not be pleased by the answer, IGE never hurts me, unlike his design.
If IGE would be like Brad, it would be attacking vehemently all pro-instancing games...but guess what, IGE is praising them to my upmost pleasure. Yes, IGE are making money, but they don't do it against anyone wishes and they don't enforce this. If someone enforce this, it is the designer with a lack of Instancing, which happen to be bandwith-wise to add to his shame.
IGE IS NOT AFFECTING CITY OF HEROES. So to the 0.02$ logic above, you have no clue, you take all games that are shafting peoples in your example, of course IGE will prosper and 'hurt' those games, even if I feel IGE is granting them a service, not hurting them. IF SOMEONE IS BLIND HERE, IT IS NOT ME. If any game is supporting IGE in the behind scene, it is Brad & his cronies. Openly fighting them, yet giving them HUGE opportunities in game...Exactly like mercenaries and highway men were working together in the past. (I still don't think Brad is supporting IGE, but IF any MMO is supporting it, it is his MMOs)
Who do you think benefit the most from IGE? It is the members of the Uberguilds that Brad is catering to, since they can sell their stuff for RL money. The evil at any rate is always the source, not the medium offering another option. Raiding enforcement is the problem, just like any enforcement would be...in the case of raiding, it is extremely distateful.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Wow not giving in lol.You strayed off topic a tad bit.First up the topic is not about the games IGE doesn't effect ,it is about the ones it does.Secondly you are not seeing your own double standard.The point is all about IGE trying to boycott in this part VANGUARD.This is EXACTLY the same as them trying to NOT offer you any choice.They want any game that doesn't cater to them to go under or be very very small.You can't say that it's the games fault for poor design,because that's not allowing choice.There should be all types of choices made without worrying about outside interference from IGE.This is supposed to be about RPG games.The design is trying to make a game that is close to a role playing as it can get.It is not about having ONLY one choice in designing a game[to fight IGE]that is ridiculous.The gaming world shouldn't become communism,it should be about fairplay and fun,not outside interference making money with no care about the players enjoyment.The fact remains ,that it is ILLEGAL,therefore anything illegal is NOT a good choice,nor should it even be a choice.This is EXACTLY the same as saying "i like underground drug makers "because they offer me a choice to save money and fight a poor economy design....Illegal ILLEGAL ILLEGAL.
IGE also reminds me of Napster[when illegal] and the more recent one[kazaa] that can't be caught because they operate from some independant country over seas.I wonder if IGE pays any taxes like the working man does,or is just a total fraud outfit?No matter anyhow they are ruining games while making money off copyrighted products,they have no business touching.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Before all.
1. Decent instancing? Vsoh, explained why they are not using instance in their game, instead that, they are using a different system to avoid, ninja looting or kill stealing (which was from what instances were created at the begining).
Well, if you look at the moment many communities that we first met as wow or EverQuest switched to Vsoh. IGE have been trying to buy affiliate sites and they bought one and Vanguard removed the rights to that community, others community have been contacter officials or unofficial communities with high traffic.
So is not only adding a mmorpg, because if you read up the FAQ and the post of DEVS, looks like there's not a better designed mmorpg in the market at the moment or of the upcoming MMORPG. I have my doubts about mythic enterteiment warhammer, but I think between Vanguard and Warhammer is the next expansion of the market and the exodus from some games to those.
Just my humble, I can't be wrong.
Dimitrio Darkblade
Founder Leader of Vitae Essentia
http://www.veguild.org
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
I used to hate IGE. I still do. But I think these huge private gaming clans are starting to cause many more problems.
Before reading this discussion, I used to think farmers and powergamers were different. But the more I think about it, these big power gaming clans are much worse. In this post above, try substitutiing FoH or AL for IGE, and think about it. Doesn't it more or less result in the same thing?
In fact, I'd have to say that players are handled far more equitably by IGE, than by powerguilds. It doesn't matter if you are liked by the powerguilds, or are logged on to TeamSpeak, or if you were a veteran or a new player. They'll do business with you.
I cannot say the same for raiding guilds and professional gaming clubs. They only care about their own, and those they like. They camp content just the same, inflate prices just the same, and stifle the opportunities of those who are not willing to do what the other one will.
The difference is, to me I haven't seen a farmer yet who is so boastful and condecending toward other subscribers on an in-game forum, it makes other players sick. The difference is that I don't see farmers doing whatever it takes to beat others in PvP, the more unbalanced, the better, and gloat about how uber their guild is.
I don't think for a moment that if it got to a point where a very few guilds called the shots on a server, they would hesitate to take real money for an in game advantage, or as "protection money," like a bunch of mobsters. I'm sure its already happening in games like EVE online over TeamSpeak servers and PayPal accounts, where the veterans have simply so much of an ability to ruin or enhance a player's experience, they might be willing to cut a deal.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Companies like IGE do hurt virtual games.
It has to do with basic economic principles that can't be refuted. The more coin or items are farmed, the greater inflation an economy experiences. Inflation is usually not considered a good thing. IGE promotes and recruits professional farmers thus doing a lot more damage on a greater scale, than a collection of individual gamers who farm extra coin/items to generate either in-game revenue or real money revenue.
IGE provides an outlet for professional farming sweatshops to sell their wares to and knowingly buys coin/items that are duped and hacked. Duping and hacking are obviously more damagaing to a virtual world's economy and IGE could care less since they just want to make money. This makes IGE and similar companies the worst kind of scum.
Instancing does not solve farming, it actually makes it easier by removing competition and creating a limitless source for farming. WoW proves that. I dislike instancing also because it destroys immersion. One truly should play a single box game if you enjoy instancing.
Having players compete and work hard for limited resources is the realistic and fair approach to an economy and mimics real life. It is best achieved however with quality game design which does not include instancing or raiding. Having static boss mobs that drop the best loot promotes camping and kill-stealing. The best loot should always be tradeable, thus giving players the option to earn it without competing at the source, and it should be a rare drop from numerous sources including non static spawns to prevent mob camping. Kill stealing is solved very easily by granting looting rights to the player who made first contact as in WoW.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Unless they made ressources available to ALL players based on their accomplishments rather than based on attacking MOB 1 before other players, what they implement resolve merely the first layer of the problem, while instancing resolve it completely.
Many in this thread underline it, IGE is far less harmfull, if any harmfull, to a gamer experience than enforced raiding is. As a player I have yet to experience anything negative about IGE, it will just NEVER happen (maybe I am to 'uber' to experience it negatively, maybe the casuals can feel it more). Raiding, it is happening all the time, by rewarding only some persons, especially when those rewarded are less group-worthy than me, I lose all faith and belief. There are many ways to judge if someone is group worthy, and frankly, the average soloer is more group-worthy than the average uber-raider. The average soloer won't quit a group to solo and the few who may do it, they will only do it if you are less efficient than solo. The average uber-raider will drop your group in the deepest zone without as much as a warning or a goodbye with a single gate spell because they are racing another uberguild to a 'critical' mob. Like I said, the average soloer is more group-worthy on ETHIC levels. Now on skill-level, a soloer know some basics on his toon even if he may lack in trusting other to do their part, still, they have some worth. The average raider will wait and expect the group to win and succeed without his implication or his part, he may or not, at his sole discretion, participate. If the group fail, in the mind of the uber-raider, it is the group fault, not his. The soloers usually apologize and nearly panic when a group wipe, they go into justifying their action, why it was better, they TRY and they believe.
IGE never harm, nor hurt, nor affect me in any way negative I can think of. Raiders are usually affecting me negatively by their noobishness, they lack of belief, their lack of effort, they lack of trust, their lack of reliability. In fact, if you are not a raid leader, a guy who is making the guild advance and on who the guild relly, you are most likely part of the problem. See, for every guy like Neku or Veros, there are dozen farting couch potatoe in the raiding system. For every worthy member, the raiding system has a dozens of unworthy. Worst, they may even turn worthy members into unworthy, as they get assimilated by the mass.
Gimme 5 soloers and I will make a group out of it, maybe not the best group, but a group nonetheless and it will work and we will have a good time. Give me 5 raiders (no raid leader, raiders only) and I will get 5 cry babies complaining about the lack of XP and wanting a better group. The 5 soloers might become groupers. The raiders, they are hopelessly cursed.
Competing over ressources belong to the past, and it is someone who get FAR more than it fair share of ressources that is talking. I can wipe a guild like LoS out of a camp I really want, not to mention the drama... I am telling you, this method is outdated, the future belong to instancing. Nothing is to be gained by an artificial competition where you can't even engage the enemy, even if me, personnally, I would be on the 'lucky few' in such a system, merely because I LIKE to find indirect ways to succeed, runing beside a bard was a good way to wipe that group in old EQ, his song hit you, he wins your aggro, you gate and check the show...that is merely example 1. Competing over ressources is not something you want to developp communities, immersion, friendship, maturity and any real value that should lead to 'uberness'.
Jorev: Instancing create inflation, but it doesn't affect the 'item for item' trading, which I think, is something you enjoy Jorey, didn't you? The fact money is worth less should not really bother you, as you can earn items instead of money, or you can provide services to get the items. Money is only 1 aspect of the game, if Instancing create inflation, it still doesn't kill money and it improve EVERY other aspect I can think of. Really, fighting instancing is like fighting medecine because hospital require lands. Inflation is something happening in healthy country, I don't see why a MMO would expect to be healthy and inflation free. Limiting and controlling it can be done with alternative methods that have nothing to do with instancing, the first method is to have 1 item that can be buyed with money only and that can be improve indefinitely, yet always at an increasing cost for every extra HP. You don't throw the baby in the bath tub as Brad say, Instancing is the baby, the future. You build everything around it, you find a system or two to limit inflation. Really, nothing that hard for all the benefits it bring. Of course, some primitives nations refuse electricity, the wheel or fire for various reasons. Refusing instancing is invoking such a reason.
IGE peoples are nice, courteous, happy. LoS/FoH/AL...well...the GuildChat is hell and outside of the Guildchat it is even worser.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Okay...if I hit you on the head and then you hit me on the head, I go to the police and say you hit me on the head, who do you think is guilty?
Sigil initiates the conflict, not only by disapproving it, but by hunting IGE openly. IGE does the same and Sigil cry? If you hunt IGE, I expect them to fight back. Now IGE 'Might' be illegal, but they have never hurt me in anyway. Sigil with it raiding enforcement policy have hurt me in many ways. And IGE is perfectly legal in banning Vanguard on what they own, just like Sigil can ban IGE (or try) inside it domain. This is what we call, capitalism.
If you ask me to pick side between Robin Hood or the evil Sherift of Nothinham, I will pick Robin Hood even if I disagree with him on everything, the fact he rob the rich and give to the poors (I am neither) really doesn't affect me. IGE try to recruit me, to no avail, I laugh at their proposal and feels quite good about it. Raiders try to recruit me as well, but it hurt to refuse, since it has a LOT of consequences in grouping, which is silly, best gear belong to groupers, not raiders.
I can't care less to know who is right and legal, I care about MAKING FUN and having a good time. IGE never affect me negatively, Sigil did. Who do you think I will consider more worthy for my FUN? Of course IGE will have the upper hand. Now I don't encourage IGE or believe in their cause, yet, I can't care less. Sigil however is dedicated to their evil raiding cause and then they start trashing IGE because they bite back, I laugh and applaud IGE of course!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Now these words are proverbial...
Ah heck, they are not:
This whole gold buying thing is just stupid. Its wrong. Stop trying to make arguments for cheating. Regardless of what anyone says its nothing better than a cheat code for being lazy. Plain and simple. You dont gain anything by it that you earn. Your just a Nub by doing it. Fail at life and get the H*** off my servers. Or, buy off the site admin and jsut have this post removed to feel better.
Okay...if I hit you on the head and then you hit me on the head, I go to the police and say you hit me on the head, who do you think is guilty?
Sigil initiates the conflict, not only by disapproving it, but by hunting IGE openly. IGE does the same and Sigil cry? If you hunt IGE, I expect them to fight back. Now IGE 'Might' be illegal, but they have never hurt me in anyway. Sigil with it raiding enforcement policy have hurt me in many ways. And IGE is perfectly legal in banning Vanguard on what they own, just like Sigil can ban IGE (or try) inside it domain. This is what we call, capitalism.
If you ask me to pick side between Robin Hood or the evil Sherift of Nothinham, I will pick Robin Hood even if I disagree with him on everything, the fact he rob the rich and give to the poors (I am neither) really doesn't affect me. IGE try to recruit me, to no avail, I laugh at their proposal and feels quite good about it. Raiders try to recruit me as well, but it hurt to refuse, since it has a LOT of consequences in grouping, which is silly, best gear belong to groupers, not raiders.
I can't care less to know who is right and legal, I care about MAKING FUN and having a good time. IGE never affect me negatively, Sigil did. Who do you think I will consider more worthy for my FUN? Of course IGE will have the upper hand. Now I don't encourage IGE or believe in their cause, yet, I can't care less. Sigil however is dedicated to their evil raiding cause and then they start trashing IGE because they bite back, I laugh and applaud IGE of course!
I care about you going to school. English classes are readily available in many countries. IGE is based in some. Maybe they can pay for it?Hyperbole
Comparing a site that provides ingame maps or class strategies to one that provides in game money and items is silly.
There is no comparison to a site providing an ingame map of "The Overthere " for free to one that supplies 20K plat in exchange of real life money..
You're attempt to equate the two to further you're MMO bible thumping is disingenous at best .
Regardless of you're personal views one violates EULA rules while the other doesn't.
I'm sure you know the diffrence..
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end