As to the game being for "Hard Core" gamers. Content wise, sure, I can see that. Show me a game that isn't for kids that doesn't have "Hard Core Content".
What about Vanguard isn't for kids? How is it more "hardcore" than WoW or EQ2 in the sense that would make it 'not for kids'? o.O It have blatant sexual themes or very violent deaths and carnage? Age doesn't measure maturity by any stretch of the imagination, especially not in the online world. So mind clarifying what you mean here?
Originally posted by NerdyChick Too many people want their game on a silver platter. Some people find that fun. "Go go go, Woo I am UBBAH... OKay now I am bored, I got here too quick." is common in todays super easy, spoonfed world. A game like Vanguard will be a refreshing challenge for a lot of people.
This is another argument I find stupid and very high-and-mighty, or rather, elitist. Hardcore endless grind = difficult, the sense of having good fast paced fun = silverplatter..? So it doesn't matter if Guild Wars 3 takes twice as long to get to level cap than Vanguard due to difficulty, because you need to grind and grind to raid worthiness in Vanguard it's more hardcore and for the 'real' gamer?
I personally think a game like Hero's Journey has a lot more going for it in the sense of having fun in a game - in theory of what we can read about the two games so far - just as I'd say Conan appeals a lot more in its 'arcadey' sense. Both these games look to have big worlds, lots of content, very interesting playing styles etc. The Wyr in HJ alone looks to go beyond what any other MMO has tried to date. But there is nothing to say these types of games will be 'easy' or remotely fast-paced-to-level-cap easy. And if we find we don't end up in the grind-to-level-cap-and-corpse-run-and-pretend-that-equals-more-difficulty cycle then we're just playing some silverplatter spoonfed shallow game?
The fact Hero's Journey is going to have a GM fueled focus on roleplaying, the 'first person' archery and horse riding battles in Conan, all the things that give these other games so much more depth than what's currently out, doesn't equal a more 'hardcore' experience?
I'm sorry, but that whole argument doesn't hold water. It's not a more hardcore style of play, it's just another niche genre style of play. Just like open, full loot PvP. Now that is hardcore gameplay. Or permadeath.
Nothing I've read so far screams at me "Vanguard is going to be better than anything else around atm!". And believe me, I loooove a good challenge. Not just grind and corpse run for the sake of calling it "hardcore".
edit: bah 4am typing = typofilled
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush. Oh. My. God.
nah don't think it will end up a Dark and Light flop, the worse than I can see happening is it turning out like EQ2 on launch; not being too popular at first but improving the game over time.
What about Vanguard isn't for kids? How is it more "hardcore" than WoW or EQ2 in the sense that would make it 'not for kids'? o.O It have blatant sexual themes or very violent deaths and carnage? Age doesn't measure maturity by any stretch of the imagination, especially not in the online world. So mind clarifying what you mean here?
I was thinking about games like Toon Town actually. MMO's built specifically for children. And by hardcore content I was refering time consuming content, such as raids.
Originally posted by Arremus
This is another argument I find stupid and very high-and-mighty, or rather, elitist. Hardcore endless grind = difficult, the sense of having good fast paced fun = silverplatter..? So it doesn't matter if Guild Wars 3 takes twice as long to get to level cap than Vanguard due to difficulty, because you need to grind and grind to raid worthiness in Vanguard it's more hardcore and for the 'real' gamer?
I personally think a game like Hero's Journey has a lot more going for it in the sense of having fun in a game - in theory of what we can read about the two games so far - just as I'd say Conan appeals a lot more in its 'arcadey' sense. Both these games look to have big worlds, lots of content, very interesting playing styles etc. The Wyr in HJ alone looks to go beyond what any other MMO has tried to date. But there is nothing to say these types of games will be 'easy' or remotely fast-paced-to-level-cap easy. And if we find we don't end up in the grind-to-level-cap-and-corpse-run-and-pretend-that-equals-more-difficulty cycle then we're just playing some silverplatter spoonfed shallow game?
The fact Hero's Journey is going to have a GM fueled focus on roleplaying, the 'first person' archery and horse riding battles in Conan, all the things that give these other games so much more depth than what's currently out, doesn't equal a more 'hardcore' experience?
I'm sorry, but that whole argument doesn't hold water. It's not a more hardcore style of play, it's just another niche genre style of play. Just like open, full loot PvP. Now that is hardcore gameplay. Or permadeath.
Nothing I've read so far screams at me "Vanguard is going to be better than anything else around atm!". And believe me, I loooove a good challenge. Not just grind and corpse run for the sake of calling it "hardcore".
I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying here. I am talking playability wise in regards to "Hard Core" games. Things like setting up a raid, running a difficult quest smoothly, finding recipes and materials for crafting. There is nothing wrong with the fast paced games. Its the overly easy games, where you dont actually have to have skill or patience or even pay attention to anything around you that are spoonfeeding people. There just happens to be, from my personal experience, a lot of those on the market right now.
I am not saying Vanguard is going to be the next biggest, bestest game known to gamers everywhere. Everyone has their own personal preferences, play styles and niches. I am personally looking forward to Vangaurd as a challenging game, and a fan conscience company.
Originally posted by Bama1267 Originally posted by pingofdeath yea all this SoE stuff is about as silly as people putting a $ in Microsoft. if you genuinely believe SoE or MS are giant evil entities bent on screwing people out of their money you're delusional.
True that..............but I wont spend my money on any game that in some way will make money for SOE. They did bad business with SWG and will never get another dime from me...tv's, stereos...or games. The company can rot in hell for all I care.
You feel the same way towards Lucas? Going to ever see another movie or play another game that puts money in Lucas's pocket? Because everything SOE did with SWG was done either with the approval or under instruction from Lucas.
Good points. However, I will dare to correct you, IMO people started quitting WoW not becuase of its fast paced gameplay, but rather becuase they reached the end too quickly. I personally never reached high end game - I love rolling out different classes and play them whenever i get bored with my main. However, WoW isnt a big (geographically) game, so this fast paced gaming is making it look even smaller. After rolling out 6-7 chars, I had trouble finding unique zones to level in. The solution to this imo is to keep fast paced gameplay, but make the game HUGE... Imagine WoW (if you played it) having landmass the size of D&L, but not empty landmass. Quests, wars, fortresses, PvP, stores, army vs army combat, aerial/naval combat... if a game can manage to fill that huge void with content, but keeping a fast paced and rich combat style, we could have another WoW-ish hit. In the case of VSOH, i dont mind it being a bit slower in gaining experience, or being a bit more group oriented AS LONG as I am not restricted by it. I do like to solo most of the time, and even if im not able to get to the top level by soloing, I will accept that. As long as I have an option to choose my own gameplay, my own gamestyle at my own pace and at my own time.
You have focused on one of the problems of fast play. Everyone races to the end game and they find that there isn't much there with a new game and the problem is increased when a huge part of the server population are all in the same area. You get bored and make bunch of alts, but find that doing the same fast run with each one really doesn't equal enjoyable play and so you move on to another game or quit until future expansions.
If you can make the trip to the end game fun and challenging then moveing through levels too fast will push you beyond great content and bottle neck the end game. I never understood why so many want to hit the top level ASAP when you can have huge amount of fun at all levels. For me I would like to see about 600 in game hours to hit top level. This would put a person who plays 20 hours per week 8 months to hit the top level. A 10 hour per week player would be 1.6 years, and a 40 hour player 4 months. This would spread out everyone on the server across many levels. Equipment doesn't need to come fast too. Equipment can trivialize events. We saw this in EQ when great equipment mudified the lower levels. When it happens over years it is not a bad thing, but when it happens over months it is.
In a fast game what do you do when you want a game to last for many years of play, but the game play is so fast that majority of the server are all sitting around waiting on the next expansion just to fly through it too. If you can slow the play to where you can release a large expansion every 6 to 8 months only the people who invest 40 plus hours per week would hit the wall and need to quickly get to the end game would not be there.
Everything is a time sink, but time sinks do not need to be a grind. Slower leveling develops a greater sense of accomplishment on gaining levels, and equipment that is hard to get creates a greater feeling of reward for your efforts in the game. It took me a year to hit level 50 in EQ and I enjoyed it all the way. My server matured very nicely over a 5 year period. If you find fun in having a few chars that you develop over years you have the older MMO mentatility. If you want to play and see all the game in a few months like playing an Xbox game then you have more of that Xbox play style. The Xbox play style is a very large number of players, but that doesn't mean every MMO needs to fit that mold. Vanguard is leaning away from that style and that is why it has the hype it does
the mistake you people are making about gameplay in vanguard is that it (according to devs) will make the game challenging but not endless tedious grind. dunno how they'll do it yet but good luck.
Insert generic anime quote/My Chemical Romance lyrics here.
Originally posted by Elikal I was following Vanguard and dark and Light both since they were announced. Dark and Light was once very hyped as the next big thing, and most who played Settlers of Ganareth, as those who have the "privilege" to play it now, are very sceptical, to say the least. I always have a deep distrust to hypes, and I really can't understand why Vanguard get so high credits by so many game previews. Sure, if you are what is called a very hardcore player, wanting great risks and high obstacles, thats fine for you. But previews and game journalists should be oblieged to a wider audience, and clearly speak of the quite critical issues. I only bring a few as examples. 1) the famous corpse run: most people I know who played Everquest I told me they hated it. Whatever you personally think about this, how easy or complicated these corpse runs yet remains to be seen. With bad luck community-wise and bad spawning system this might as well work out as a player hell. It depends on many factors, some of which Sigil hardly can control, like how the community will evolve on each server. If a server gathers a ver immaure and unfriendly community, it can be very difficult to get the needed help. Besides, no player who started playing any of the bigger games (SWG, EQ2, WOW, GW, CoH and so on) knows a corpse run, so this rollback in a past age will likely confuse quite a large audience and maybe rethink bying it. 2) Sigil has repeatedly stated to make quests that need sppecial professions to be made. I can not see the logic in that decision. I enjoy quests or tasks which allow multiple approaches, that is what I feel is the special thing about an RPG, otherwise it is only an adventure, where you play an exact plot. Online RPGs, compared to solo RPGs already lack the choices in the way a quest can be solved, and I would expect new games to widen the possibilities, not narrow them down MORE, as Vaguard seems to aim. In EQ2 so many quests have many, complicated steps, which makes it often quite difficult to find enough people to make your next quest step. This is a difficulty I rarely had in WOW, because they made their quests less complicated and this easier to find people. Vanguard sounds like a science, quests whose every step I have to study in internet walkthroughs before even thinking to undertake them. The way quests, crafting and many other things are very dependent on each other, sound very difficult and could quickly kill the fun for those who are not already gifted with unemployment. 3) The long travelling is also a possible great fun killer. Whats the aim in going the same long path again and again by foot, especially in such a big world? I can't go into detail, but overall some features in Vanguard sound like great time sinks to me, and I don't like the idea of time sinks at all. My lifetime is really too precious to me for them. The mix Vanguard tries to establish sounds more like a receipe to be the next big dissapointment then a big hit.
i think you're hitting the nail on the head here. this game is totally gonna flop like dnl. they say they're aiming to get 500 k subscribers, but with all the great competent games coming out later this year and next, vanguard will be lucky to hit 250 K in my opinion. personally, i think they will hit 100 k to 200 k. then because the game will be such a financial disaster and investors will start screaming bloody murder, soe will swoop in and buy the game on the cheap and implement an SWG NGE- like revamp of vanguard to make it more "vanguardsy" and "iconic" LOL
Yeah! Because walking for an hour from one place to another while dodging spawns in Everquest took so much skill. Oh, how I've longed for the "good ole days" of proving how skilled and uber I was by running across East and West Karana, while my friends who were waiting for me messaged me "wow, you are so skilled, the way you hold down the run key like that".
Originally posted by SpiritofGame Simply put, if you are looking for a game that you can play on E-Z Mode, Vanguard will not be it. You should probably seek elsewhere. Respectfully yours....
vanguard will be the next DnL flop. they are expecting 500 k subscribers in north america. i am betting only 100 k will subscrbe. mmocharts.com agrees that subscriber numbers will be well below 500 k.
It will be interesting to see how many of you masochists plead for more accessability after actually playing the game. . . and how many will just quit in frustration (after breaking their keyboards) when a corpse run turns sour 4 times in a row and you go down a level just trying to get your stuff back.
I think it's even more interesting you haven't responded to Zippy's post showing that you know nothing about how MMO's are funded. Go troll somewhere else.
Also, good points xtro. I would like to add only that there are more ways to "fix" the fast-paced gameplay by adding other ways to "do stuff" in-game, like - questing (not necessarily leveling but rather doing a small part in a huge roleplaying event ex. a huge event that takes a month to unlock a secret city or continent), - PvPing (capturing/defending player held castles), - Crafting (I think 80% usable items should be crafted only. the rest 20% comes from hunting specific monsters, like bosses, elite/rare mobs while regular mobs would drop crafting resources to support crafting) - Raiding (a lot of people actualy enjoy raiding super hard bosses for super cool lewt) - Housing (for those trophy-hunting to make their house feel and look unique) - Harvesting (should be rich enough in content to be separate from crafting)
Originally posted by Dalexith The thing that gets me is the fact that you morons claim to not like Vanguard or claim it will fail, yet you still visit the forums. This game is still in beta for 1, for 2 get a life, for 3 what makes you the authority on how games will turn out? Oh Vanguard will fail blah blah blah shut the hell up and go do your school work little boy.
lol this post is far to obvious, let me guess.....you are a vanguard hater and you made another account to make the fanbois look bad?
because honestly that post is just to perfect, it has all the elements of what people claim "vanboi's" are. let me guess, now jonaku or some other hater is going to come in here and say "see! t told ya so!, the vanguard community sucks!"
these forums are too funny, either way that post made me smile.
Maybe a littel side subject but still and interesting thing to think about.
There are many similarties bewteen d&l, vanguard and darkfall. You can argue that lying is necesary in modern marketing, d&l took it to a new high though and the 2 other games will do the same imo.
Overhype is partialy the players fault,who belive in nonesens, but its steared by the developers/community managers. They promise features which were never to be implemented, they promise things as exotic as snowboarding yet they cant make the core game mechanics fun, or in fact playable. Overhype is treated like religion by some. Darkfall and Vanguard are too extremely difrent games, yet their communties are almost the same. The Vision (tm) of both which evolved in the players colective minds is treated like a dogma and anyone suggesting changes(be it a player or a developer) is treated like a heretic, after recognising one an auto da fe follows. Interestingly the vision of the game has, in most cases, littel to do with the actual product the game company is offering. One may ask why do they belive in obvious lies? Why do they belive in overhype? Beacuse its used by the community managers as a means to secure sales even of a crap game(d&l), they dont sell the actual game, but instead they sale the imagine of the game they invoked into the players minds. They make gullible players belive they are right and that if they are patient enough or devoted if you will, they will be rewarded.
You can argue that lying is a necesary mechanic in modern marketing beacuse in most cases companies deliver subpar products, thus to make it more applinig they lie, they overhype. They will continue to do so, as long as people will be content with shoddy products being shoved down their throats.
Originally posted by PeaCee And on the topic what killed wow. Mudflation, no pvp, raids so fun that they make you want to gouge your eyes out
I disagree with you on your previous post and this one.
Previous post: I dont thin VSOH is being overhyped, I find VSOH community to be coolheaded and moderatly hyped. We all learned a nasty lesson from D&L so we await VSOH with caution. If u browse VSOH forums you wont find countless "OMG VSOH IS GONNA PWNZORZ YALL N00B5.11111oneone111". We do wait for it with impatience but we are not overzealous to jump into preorder right away. Im guessing most people will try to get into beta and only then preorder the game if they like it of course.
And about your comment above, killed wow in what sense? for you? for everyone else? Maybe for you, yes, but not for everyone else seeing how WoW has what, 5-6.5 mil active players?
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Originally posted by PeaCee And on the topic what killed wow. Mudflation, no pvp, raids so fun that they make you want to gouge your eyes out
.... And about your comment above, killed wow in what sense? for you? for everyone else? Maybe for you, yes, but not for everyone else seeing how WoW has what, 5-6.5 mil active players?
Ofcourse Im talking from personall expirence, so you are right. In the same time lots of players I played with from realese have left the game in disgust for the reasons I named. Wows subscription numbers are based on the influx of new players and the addicts who try to quit and fail(sadly i know many of these people aswell). Using wows subscription number is an argument which I dont realy like, beacuse it implies alot:/ First of all, having a huge subscirption number (for western world standards) is naturaly a success, but does that mean the product will remain succesful? The initial succes doesnt guarantee a long term succes. I dont want to go into detail(beacuse I could bitch about blizzard the whole day) and will just say whats the "flavor of the month" to solve all of wows problems. The expansion. Ask a cm what the cure for cancer and he will tell you it will be in the expansion.The mmo crowd is hard to please, you have to keep them entartained and intersted. And right now it looks like they keep their fingers crossed so that they dont loose a siginifcant number of subcriptions until they can rush the expack. For me persoanly, wow got worse with almost evry patch they implemented and Im just hanging around beacuse of the interesting people I met. I could write an essay how vivendi is sucking the life out of blizzard and thus out of wow, but it would all be an assumption without solid proof and as such it could be disregarded. Thus Im only going to say that the majority of players I played are already gone, after what? 1 year? 1.5 years? Wow will be killed or saved depending on what they do with the endgame.
Originally posted by PeaCee Maybe a littel side subject but still and interesting thing to think about.There are many similarties bewteen d&l, vanguard and darkfall. You can argue that lying is necesary in modern marketing, d&l took it to a new high though and the 2 other games will do the same imo. Overhype is partialy the players fault,who belive in nonesens, but its steared by the developers/community managers. They promise features which were never to be implemented, they promise things as exotic as snowboarding yet they cant make the core game mechanics fun, or in fact playable. Overhype is treated like religion by some. Darkfall and Vanguard are too extremely difrent games, yet their communties are almost the same. The Vision (tm) of both which evolved in the players colective minds is treated like a dogma and anyone suggesting changes(be it a player or a developer) is treated like a heretic, after recognising one an auto da fe follows. Interestingly the vision of the game has, in most cases, littel to do with the actual product the game company is offering. One may ask why do they belive in obvious lies? Why do they belive in overhype? Beacuse its used by the community managers as a means to secure sales even of a crap game(d&l), they dont sell the actual game, but instead they sale the imagine of the game they invoked into the players minds. They make gullible players belive they are right and that if they are patient enough or devoted if you will, they will be rewarded.You can argue that lying is a necesary mechanic in modern marketing beacuse in most cases companies deliver subpar products, thus to make it more applinig they lie, they overhype. They will continue to do so, as long as people will be content with shoddy products being shoved down their throats.
please, by all means show me a link to these alleged "lies" that sigil has made about vanguard. until then i think that is a bunch of BS regarding your comparison to Dnl and DF.
i do agree that some members of the community try and over hype vanguard but if you read alot of the posts by Dev's they do try and manage this as much as they can.
Originally posted by PeaCee Maybe a littel side subject but still and interesting thing to think about.There are many similarties bewteen d&l, vanguard and darkfall. You can argue that lying is necesary in modern marketing, d&l took it to a new high though and the 2 other games will do the same imo. Overhype is partialy the players fault,who belive in nonesens, but its steared by the developers/community managers. They promise features which were never to be implemented, they promise things as exotic as snowboarding yet they cant make the core game mechanics fun, or in fact playable. Overhype is treated like religion by some. Darkfall and Vanguard are too extremely difrent games, yet their communties are almost the same. The Vision (tm) of both which evolved in the players colective minds is treated like a dogma and anyone suggesting changes(be it a player or a developer) is treated like a heretic, after recognising one an auto da fe follows. Interestingly the vision of the game has, in most cases, littel to do with the actual product the game company is offering. One may ask why do they belive in obvious lies? Why do they belive in overhype? Beacuse its used by the community managers as a means to secure sales even of a crap game(d&l), they dont sell the actual game, but instead they sale the imagine of the game they invoked into the players minds. They make gullible players belive they are right and that if they are patient enough or devoted if you will, they will be rewarded.You can argue that lying is a necesary mechanic in modern marketing beacuse in most cases companies deliver subpar products, thus to make it more applinig they lie, they overhype. They will continue to do so, as long as people will be content with shoddy products being shoved down their throats.
please, by all means show me a link to these alleged "lies" that sigil has made about vanguard. until then i think that is a bunch of BS regarding your comparison to Dnl and DF.
i do agree that some members of the community try and over hype vanguard but if you read alot of the posts by Dev's they do try and manage this as much as they can.
And that is why I say very far away from the Game Play Forums and only post in the Off Topic and use the Dev Tracker.
I've been following a lot of games recently. They all have potential; until you start to play them. They all have people who have good and bad things to say about them. A lot flame the idea; a lot flame the people; a lot flame the company. Don't get me started on people who flame companies; they all want your money, all patch constantly, and all patch badly. The upcoming games could all flop, then again they could all be blockbusters. The details around play styles when the game is released is the only telling feature as to whether the game is about turning over boxes and subscriptions or if they are in it for the long haul. Each business model has it proponents and neither is bad. It just is.
W00t! First a big thanks to the many elaborate and interesting replies, no matter if agreeing or disagreeing. ^^
Sure, to a great detail it's a matter of taste what people like and what frustrates them. My tolerance towards more tediious things like corpse runs and "manual travel" (= no/few fast travel options) was always low.
Anyhow, I surely did not want to compare Vanguard to DnL, just the way DnL was hyped with over expectations on innovative features, because I think there are some good receipies for a good game, so you can't re-invent the wheel too many times again. I guess the industry has shown some concepts that work, and of course MMO gaming isn't free of trends either.
I'll give you a personal example: I play SWG for about 2 years and 3 months now, with breaks, so I wen through all the many stages of hype, success and fall of this game. When I started SWG it was pretty much a sandbox. It is likely true SWG wasn't in a much better state when it started than was DnL, which like SWG was designed as a sandbox game. A sandbox game is a game where little is given to the player on terms of quests, but players get a great variety of possibilities but have to flesh them out by themselves. The point is: my own taste has changed. In the good old SWG days I did not need quests. I met my friends and we made the game world, much like the old Ultima Online was thought to be, thought I never played that. It is I guess no coincidence that both had Raph Koster as designer who always loved those sandbox games. I enjoyed those games at that time too, but when I returned to SWG after a long time absence, I realized for me this time was over. Now I prefer quests, things to do, like in EQ2 or WOW. My taste just has changed, and I guess that of a lot of people too.
Now things change, expectations what a game has change. Once games had no journal or no automap. But now everyone playing a solo RPG rightfully expects it as standart. I know well the old days when I played Ultima IV and wrote down all the dialogue, the quests and draw pages on pages of chequered paper with maps. I enjoyed these games in the 1980ies, but I still would not do this now again. It is my firm belief that a lot of people who have positive expectations and more difficult games like Vanguard will be quite disappointed because it is one to have a positive nostalgia (Like good EQ1 memories) and to actually experience it again years later.
Anyhow, I guess WOW had a great impact and forever changed the way people will perceive MMO's like it or not. I did not play WOW all too long, after 6 or 7 months I had enough. It was not because I had outlevelled my character. It was because WOW always totally lacked any lasting things, especially if I compare it to SWG which I still play despite all it's desasters: I have a house, I am married, I sustain a still big guild with our own player city and giuldhouse. I have my manor with tons of things from quests, crafted, whatever, which tells a story about my char. In WOW, when I log, I leave no trail. I am just a pixel character who vanishes in some tavern. WOW is totally devoid of everything lasting, and I guess thats a huge factor that bores many poeple quickly and makes them invest so much hope into Vanguard. (I still do so too.)
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
o me vanguard was easy to lplay and lvl, was in the closed beta and people were luving the graphics that are nothing special. This is not a casual players game, it was advertised as much
Comments
So it doesn't matter if Guild Wars 3 takes twice as long to get to level cap than Vanguard due to difficulty, because you need to grind and grind to raid worthiness in Vanguard it's more hardcore and for the 'real' gamer?
I personally think a game like Hero's Journey has a lot more going for it in the sense of having fun in a game - in theory of what we can read about the two games so far - just as I'd say Conan appeals a lot more in its 'arcadey' sense. Both these games look to have big worlds, lots of content, very interesting playing styles etc. The Wyr in HJ alone looks to go beyond what any other MMO has tried to date.
But there is nothing to say these types of games will be 'easy' or remotely fast-paced-to-level-cap easy.
And if we find we don't end up in the grind-to-level-cap-and-corpse-run-and-pretend-that-equals-more-difficulty cycle then we're just playing some silverplatter spoonfed shallow game?
The fact Hero's Journey is going to have a GM fueled focus on roleplaying, the 'first person' archery and horse riding battles in Conan, all the things that give these other games so much more depth than what's currently out, doesn't equal a more 'hardcore' experience?
I'm sorry, but that whole argument doesn't hold water. It's not a more hardcore style of play, it's just another niche genre style of play. Just like open, full loot PvP. Now that is hardcore gameplay. Or permadeath.
Nothing I've read so far screams at me "Vanguard is going to be better than anything else around atm!". And believe me, I loooove a good challenge. Not just grind and corpse run for the sake of calling it "hardcore".
edit: bah 4am typing = typofilled
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
Insert generic anime quote/My Chemical Romance lyrics here.
~~
Nerissa
World Of Roleplayers Radio
http://www.wor-radio.com
You feel the same way towards Lucas? Going to ever see another movie or play another game that puts money in Lucas's pocket? Because everything SOE did with SWG was done either with the approval or under instruction from Lucas.
2x post sorry
Insert generic anime quote/My Chemical Romance lyrics here.
vanguard will be the next DnL flop. they are expecting 500 k subscribers in north america. i am betting only 100 k will subscrbe. mmocharts.com agrees that subscriber numbers will be well below 500 k.
Also, good points xtro. I would like to add only that there are more ways to "fix" the fast-paced gameplay by adding other ways to "do stuff" in-game, like
- questing (not necessarily leveling but rather doing a small part in a huge roleplaying event ex. a huge event that takes a month to unlock a secret city or continent),
- PvPing (capturing/defending player held castles),
- Crafting (I think 80% usable items should be crafted only. the rest 20% comes from hunting specific monsters, like bosses, elite/rare mobs while regular mobs would drop crafting resources to support crafting)
- Raiding (a lot of people actualy enjoy raiding super hard bosses for super cool lewt)
- Housing (for those trophy-hunting to make their house feel and look unique)
- Harvesting (should be rich enough in content to be separate from crafting)
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
lol this post is far to obvious, let me guess.....you are a vanguard hater and you made another account to make the fanbois look bad?
because honestly that post is just to perfect, it has all the elements of what people claim "vanboi's" are. let me guess, now jonaku or some other hater is going to come in here and say "see! t told ya so!, the vanguard community sucks!"
these forums are too funny, either way that post made me smile.
There are many similarties bewteen d&l, vanguard and darkfall. You can argue that lying is necesary in modern marketing, d&l took it to a new high though and the 2 other games will do the same imo.
Overhype is partialy the players fault,who belive in nonesens, but its steared by the developers/community managers. They promise features which were never to be implemented, they promise things as exotic as snowboarding yet they cant make the core game mechanics fun, or in fact playable.
Overhype is treated like religion by some. Darkfall and Vanguard are too extremely difrent games, yet their communties are almost the same. The Vision (tm) of both which evolved in the players colective minds is treated like a dogma and anyone suggesting changes(be it a player or a developer) is treated like a heretic, after recognising one an auto da fe follows. Interestingly the vision of the game has, in most cases, littel to do with the actual product the game company is offering.
One may ask why do they belive in obvious lies? Why do they belive in overhype? Beacuse its used by the community managers as a means to secure sales even of a crap game(d&l), they dont sell the actual game, but instead they sale the imagine of the game they invoked into the players minds. They make gullible players belive they are right and that if they are patient enough or devoted if you will, they will be rewarded.
You can argue that lying is a necesary mechanic in modern marketing beacuse in most cases companies deliver subpar products, thus to make it more applinig they lie, they overhype. They will continue to do so, as long as people will be content with shoddy products being shoved down their throats.
Previous post: I dont thin VSOH is being overhyped, I find VSOH community to be coolheaded and moderatly hyped. We all learned a nasty lesson from D&L so we await VSOH with caution. If u browse VSOH forums you wont find countless "OMG VSOH IS GONNA PWNZORZ YALL N00B5.11111oneone111". We do wait for it with impatience but we are not overzealous to jump into preorder right away. Im guessing most people will try to get into beta and only then preorder the game if they like it of course.
And about your comment above, killed wow in what sense? for you? for everyone else? Maybe for you, yes, but not for everyone else seeing how WoW has what, 5-6.5 mil active players?
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
And about your comment above, killed wow in what sense? for you? for everyone else? Maybe for you, yes, but not for everyone else seeing how WoW has what, 5-6.5 mil active players?
Ofcourse Im talking from personall expirence, so you are right.
In the same time lots of players I played with from realese have left the game in disgust for the reasons I named. Wows subscription numbers are based on the influx of new players and the addicts who try to quit and fail(sadly i know many of these people aswell).
Using wows subscription number is an argument which I dont realy like, beacuse it implies alot:/
First of all, having a huge subscirption number (for western world standards) is naturaly a success, but does that mean the product will remain succesful? The initial succes doesnt guarantee a long term succes. I dont want to go into detail(beacuse I could bitch about blizzard the whole day) and will just say whats the "flavor of the month" to solve all of wows problems. The expansion. Ask a cm what the cure for cancer and he will tell you it will be in the expansion.The mmo crowd is hard to please, you have to keep them entartained and intersted. And right now it looks like they keep their fingers crossed so that they dont loose a siginifcant number of subcriptions until they can rush the expack. For me persoanly, wow got worse with almost evry patch they implemented
I could write an essay how vivendi is sucking the life out of blizzard and thus out of wow, but it would all be an assumption without solid proof and as such it could be disregarded. Thus Im only going to say that the majority of players I played are already gone, after what? 1 year? 1.5 years? Wow will be killed or saved depending on what they do with the endgame.
please, by all means show me a link to these alleged "lies" that sigil has made about vanguard. until then i think that is a bunch of BS regarding your comparison to Dnl and DF.
i do agree that some members of the community try and over hype vanguard but if you read alot of the posts by Dev's they do try and manage this as much as they can.
please, by all means show me a link to these alleged "lies" that sigil has made about vanguard. until then i think that is a bunch of BS regarding your comparison to Dnl and DF.
i do agree that some members of the community try and over hype vanguard but if you read alot of the posts by Dev's they do try and manage this as much as they can.
And that is why I say very far away from the Game Play Forums and only post in the Off Topic and use the Dev Tracker.
I've been following a lot of games recently. They all have potential; until you start to play them. They all have people who have good and bad things to say about them. A lot flame the idea; a lot flame the people; a lot flame the company. Don't get me started on people who flame companies; they all want your money, all patch constantly, and all patch badly. The upcoming games could all flop, then again they could all be blockbusters. The details around play styles when the game is released is the only telling feature as to whether the game is about turning over boxes and subscriptions or if they are in it for the long haul. Each business model has it proponents and neither is bad. It just is.
same here, in fact it is the only place i have posted in, in months.
W00t! First a big thanks to the many elaborate and interesting replies, no matter if agreeing or disagreeing. ^^
Sure, to a great detail it's a matter of taste what people like and what frustrates them. My tolerance towards more tediious things like corpse runs and "manual travel" (= no/few fast travel options) was always low.
Anyhow, I surely did not want to compare Vanguard to DnL, just the way DnL was hyped with over expectations on innovative features, because I think there are some good receipies for a good game, so you can't re-invent the wheel too many times again. I guess the industry has shown some concepts that work, and of course MMO gaming isn't free of trends either.
I'll give you a personal example: I play SWG for about 2 years and 3 months now, with breaks, so I wen through all the many stages of hype, success and fall of this game. When I started SWG it was pretty much a sandbox. It is likely true SWG wasn't in a much better state when it started than was DnL, which like SWG was designed as a sandbox game. A sandbox game is a game where little is given to the player on terms of quests, but players get a great variety of possibilities but have to flesh them out by themselves. The point is: my own taste has changed. In the good old SWG days I did not need quests. I met my friends and we made the game world, much like the old Ultima Online was thought to be, thought I never played that. It is I guess no coincidence that both had Raph Koster as designer who always loved those sandbox games. I enjoyed those games at that time too, but when I returned to SWG after a long time absence, I realized for me this time was over. Now I prefer quests, things to do, like in EQ2 or WOW. My taste just has changed, and I guess that of a lot of people too.
Now things change, expectations what a game has change. Once games had no journal or no automap. But now everyone playing a solo RPG rightfully expects it as standart. I know well the old days when I played Ultima IV and wrote down all the dialogue, the quests and draw pages on pages of chequered paper with maps. I enjoyed these games in the 1980ies, but I still would not do this now again. It is my firm belief that a lot of people who have positive expectations and more difficult games like Vanguard will be quite disappointed because it is one to have a positive nostalgia (Like good EQ1 memories) and to actually experience it again years later.
Anyhow, I guess WOW had a great impact and forever changed the way people will perceive MMO's like it or not. I did not play WOW all too long, after 6 or 7 months I had enough. It was not because I had outlevelled my character. It was because WOW always totally lacked any lasting things, especially if I compare it to SWG which I still play despite all it's desasters: I have a house, I am married, I sustain a still big guild with our own player city and giuldhouse. I have my manor with tons of things from quests, crafted, whatever, which tells a story about my char. In WOW, when I log, I leave no trail. I am just a pixel character who vanishes in some tavern. WOW is totally devoid of everything lasting, and I guess thats a huge factor that bores many poeple quickly and makes them invest so much hope into Vanguard. (I still do so too.)
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
people were luving the graphics that are nothing special. This is not
a casual players game, it was advertised as much