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"Effort" in MMOs
Mylon
Member Posts: 975
I refuse to play most MMOs out there because of the grind. Meanwhile I have 1 friend playing FFXI, 2 friends playing WoW, and one more unable to make up his mind between the two.
My general philosophy is I shouldn't have to invest 20 hours into a game before it becomes fun. I can grab a single player game and it's fun from the start. Most MMOs, even Warcraft, are rather boring to play for the first 20 hours. Combine that with how little of that time played is spent playing with friends and I find most MMOs annoying to play.
I started WoW with 5 of my friends, and they all outlevelled me and I never saw them after that first LAN party starting from level 1, which really wasn't too interesting because some of the other level 1s couldn't make it to a single starting town so we could play together. My friend playing FFXI says I don't want to have to "work" for anything. I mean... WTF? I'm playing a game! I shouldn't have to work for anything, I want to have fun.
Guild Wars seems to very much fit my philosophy in terms of game mechanics. Since 90% of the game occurs at level 20, travel is instant, players can play with any other player with the game, it takes so little time to form a party and go, and the missions are only 30 minutes long (there are 2 hour+ dungeons, too), and nothing is absolutely required to "advance"... I think it's the best game out there for my style. Yeah, I miss being able to run into players and add them to a party. I miss not being able to solo. I do, in some part of me, miss not getting better as I play, but the game delivers fun. And if a player wants, they can, right out of the box, jump into PvP and be competitive stat-wise and not have to do the PvE, which isn't terribly interesting by itself.
The mentality of players like my FFXI friend that says "fun" has to be "earned" even in a game bothers me. And worse is this is how most MMOs are built. They start the player out with almost nothing. It's very, very boring and most of the more interesting game mechanics don't come in until later. Like I wanted to play WoW Alterac Valley because it looked interesting, but I'd never hit level 60, much less get the equipment needed to be competitive.
I recently picked up the Saga of Ryzom trial again and now I remember why I left the first time. The skill tree is divided into 4 skills for players at levels 1-21. Fighting, magic, harvesting, crafting. At level 21-51, the skill tree is still boring. Melee or ranged for fighting. No branching at all for harvesting. Offensive and defensive magic for magic. Crafting actually branches out meaningfully, but that's not saying much. Why do so many games lock out so much of the content for newbies like this? I was interested in Ryzom because of the skill system where a player learns how to use an axe by using an axe, or so on, but this doesn't come into play until at least level 51.
I'm tired of games locking out content until someone has played so much. Yet players seem to enjoy this about games, "earning" their way to the next part through grinding... We need more games with a different philosphy. And more players, too!
My general philosophy is I shouldn't have to invest 20 hours into a game before it becomes fun. I can grab a single player game and it's fun from the start. Most MMOs, even Warcraft, are rather boring to play for the first 20 hours. Combine that with how little of that time played is spent playing with friends and I find most MMOs annoying to play.
I started WoW with 5 of my friends, and they all outlevelled me and I never saw them after that first LAN party starting from level 1, which really wasn't too interesting because some of the other level 1s couldn't make it to a single starting town so we could play together. My friend playing FFXI says I don't want to have to "work" for anything. I mean... WTF? I'm playing a game! I shouldn't have to work for anything, I want to have fun.
Guild Wars seems to very much fit my philosophy in terms of game mechanics. Since 90% of the game occurs at level 20, travel is instant, players can play with any other player with the game, it takes so little time to form a party and go, and the missions are only 30 minutes long (there are 2 hour+ dungeons, too), and nothing is absolutely required to "advance"... I think it's the best game out there for my style. Yeah, I miss being able to run into players and add them to a party. I miss not being able to solo. I do, in some part of me, miss not getting better as I play, but the game delivers fun. And if a player wants, they can, right out of the box, jump into PvP and be competitive stat-wise and not have to do the PvE, which isn't terribly interesting by itself.
The mentality of players like my FFXI friend that says "fun" has to be "earned" even in a game bothers me. And worse is this is how most MMOs are built. They start the player out with almost nothing. It's very, very boring and most of the more interesting game mechanics don't come in until later. Like I wanted to play WoW Alterac Valley because it looked interesting, but I'd never hit level 60, much less get the equipment needed to be competitive.
I recently picked up the Saga of Ryzom trial again and now I remember why I left the first time. The skill tree is divided into 4 skills for players at levels 1-21. Fighting, magic, harvesting, crafting. At level 21-51, the skill tree is still boring. Melee or ranged for fighting. No branching at all for harvesting. Offensive and defensive magic for magic. Crafting actually branches out meaningfully, but that's not saying much. Why do so many games lock out so much of the content for newbies like this? I was interested in Ryzom because of the skill system where a player learns how to use an axe by using an axe, or so on, but this doesn't come into play until at least level 51.
I'm tired of games locking out content until someone has played so much. Yet players seem to enjoy this about games, "earning" their way to the next part through grinding... We need more games with a different philosphy. And more players, too!
Comments
I agree with the OP. A MMORPG shouldn't be work, it should be fun. That people are willing to grind for hours and hours just to get to the fun parts of a game is pretty sad in my opinion.
SWG was fun, even when you were grinding. WoW bored me. Planetside was fun. You just need to pick and choose what is fun for you, and avoid games like those that you describe.
Guild Wars doesn't force me to grind, but there are still goals to work towards and I can do these while doing what I find enjoyable. While I'm PvPing, I'm earning titles and points I can use to unlock more skills. While I'm PvEing, I'm doing missions are at least more interesting than the "everyone wait here while the ranger goes and pull 1-2 mobs at a time" type MMORPGs, and we're not doing it to level, so if we can avoid groups of monsters we do so.
There is an element of competition in MMOGs that you obviously won't find in single box games. In order to compete, you have to have goals which require effort. That is fun for many people.
Guild Wars is not a MMOG because of it's heavy instancing. It appeals to you because it is basically a single box game played online.
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Planetside was fun, rank didn't matter at all and exp came as u played... I never chose any certain equipment because it would make XP easier... just what I liked to play and felt usefull to the battle
SWG was also loads of fun, until the hologrind at wich point it never stopped (professions, jedi, skillloss etc)
exp being better solo than in a group sucks!
WoW was a nice change in the beginning, but it felt like a grind soon enough, and it never stopped feeling like a grind (even way after lvl 60). THere is no entertainment or social aspect in this game. Just exp grind, material grind, money grind.
too bad PS and SWG slowly died ever since their release (lack of decent new content and a good active dev-team after release)
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There is leveling grind even in single player RPG games, because that is what computer RPG games (and even tabletop RPG) games are about, they are about taking up a role and advancing a character from beeing a nub to beeing a hero.
Then there are FPS contesting games, here there is no advancement just a hunt down of enemies, be it other players like Counter Strike for example or single player games like Half Life.
It is true that at the moment if you dont enjoy RPG, FPS, RTS ot Card games you will not find many games to cater you, but dont try to understand or judge what other enjoy, and most importantly don't citisize.
If you can not understand why character advancement, no matter how slow it may be, is fun no matter what i say you will continue not to like it, but there is a hell of alot of players out there who enjoy it and with them in mind it is how RPG games are made.
Also many single player RPS have no "grind", in that they require no repetition of exactly the same content over and over. Even if we go back to Bard's Tale you only needed to run a dungeon once to finish the game. You could "grind" if you wanted to since there were infitinte spawns of random mobs. People tend to "grind" in some RPG's such as the Elder scrolls games because its a fast way to advance abilites. But in RPG's like Baldur's Gate grinding was certainly not part of the game. In some games such as Dues Ex grinding is actually impossible since you can't repeat any content and skills points/canister upgrades are awarded at mission completion or picked up.
Basically MMORPGs tend toward "grindiness" because they tend to have generic content that can be repeated over and over. They further tend to encourage "grinding" by having random and rare loot drops forcing people to repeat content. The two major causes of grinds are : 1) generic content 2) purposely put in farming timesinks.
It is flat out wrong to characterize all RPGs as having grinds. Pretty much all RPGs have character advancement, but certainly not all incorporate grinds into that advancement. Diablo2 could definitely become "grindy" especially if you wanted some particular kind of loot but Baldur's Gate was a much different game when it came to that.
Frankly we can even extend this to pure FPS games. Some pure FPS games do have advancement in the form of items. Mechwarrior 4 is a decent example of this. As you progressed in the game you got larger and more powerful chassis and more powerful weapons. Just like WoW "end-game" progression is all items so is Mechwarrior 4. Mechwarrior 4 has money you can earn from your missions so that you can buy more stuff. In addition to the mission content of Mechwarrior 4 you could also earn money via the arena, which consisted of running similar matches on the same map in a big free for all. The arena eventually culminated in a championship, but they could have easily have made it endless with randomly generated opponents. If they had done so you would have an FPS with a money grind for advancement just as any MMORPG has an item grind or an xp grind.
Grinding is not about RPG or FPS. Its just what happens when repeating the same content over and over is rewarded. And that just happens to be most common in MMORPGs (and MUDs etc) because it is a very easy and simple content model that requires far less man-hours. Plus it already existed in some single player RPG's so it was tolerated in MMORPGs.
I think "work" is part of what makes MMO games inviting to many players. The idea that if one works harder than others one will have an advantage can be very appealing to many people.
Games should be fun, yes. But the opinion of what is "fun" varies widely.
Here's a suggestion: if the game isn't "fun" for you don't play it.
I agree with Gameloading. I think mmorpgs are much more complicated than a single player RPG. The better ones try and take the community and make it core part of the game. That is something you can never get in a single player RPG.
The depth added by players either with their achievements, playstyles, and personality makes mmorpgs special, not the mechanics behind them. If you find a certain part of the game boring, there are usually other options to explore within the game. Try something different. There is usually no path set before you, and you have freedom to do what you please.
I think players who become bored and frustrated with mmorpgs are playing the wrong game. Often times, it takes help from other players, making friends and forming relationships in a mmorpg to get the most out of them. Even the ones that allow single player gameplay have options and a community that offers support, maybe through trade at an auction house, or more directly by clearing an area that you may not have gotten through on your own.
In my experience with people who have been playing mmorpgs, I have found that they enjoy these games because of the many options they have, and the variety of things to do. Some like them to be easy to attain, almost presented to them on a platter, and others like to work at it, going through the grind to finally achieve their goals. There are many different mmorpgs that offer different degrees difficultly. Maybe you just haven't found the one right for you?
It is all very dependent on the individuals playstyle and taste really.
What "fun" to one person isn't necessarily "fun" to another. What is the OP's definition of whats "fun" in an MMO? Whats fun in a single player game, console game or whatever?
Yes, WoW is "fun" but mainly because it is fast moving. It is also very linear gameplay. You talk to the NPC run out, do the task, ding do it again. There is nothing wrong with that. It appeals to many more traditional style pc and console gamers who are crossing over to dabble in MMO's. Its a shooter style game with levels before you can get into the maps. These same players however, are not finding "fun" in other MMO's.
So what you find "fun" others may not. WoW is fast, easy and accessible. The other comparison is FFXI. Its a totally different style of game. its an immersive RPG. You log in for the first time and need to explore and get familar with your environment. There is a storyline. There are choices to make and different points. The goal isn't necessarily to hit level cap. Games like Ryzom are even less clear. It is "fun" but in a totally different playstyle.
Challenge is "fun" to some people. Not everyone wants arcade blazing around all the time. I play different things when I am in different moods. If I want instant killing I go into BattleField2. Thats "fun" for fast paced action. When I want a real "challenge", I play Steel Beast. The game is extreamly difficult. Its "fun" for me but in a different way. When I want to doodle around in an MMO I play L2. I like the look/style and gameplay and have a few friends in it. I enjoy the community and I also enjoy the "risk" each time I play. Its "fun". I don't care about the levels. Then when I break down and cave into my wife I play WoW with her. Yeah its "fun". Its flashy and cool looking in a light hearted cartoony way, so what? We have "fun". Its not a serious MMO to me but thats my opinion.
Every game has its own style and intent. rather then randomly buying and playing anything that you see in front of you and then flaming the heck out of it when its not what you want, more players should research the games they are looking at and making better buying decissions. "Will this game be fun FOR ME?" is the question you should be asking. If you don't like Korean games, don't buy them and play them. Your lack dollars has spoken louder then any moronic "I hate ___ type games" ever will. If you don't like broken, buggy, imcomplete games, don't buy them. Teach the devs a leason.
The OP sounds like he's better suited to games like WoW and GW. Nothing wrong with that. More power to ya. MMO designs are not the best right now. In fact, you could say everything up to this point that has released this year has pretty much SUCKED ARSE.
MMO's are stuck on grind at the moment. Some people find grind "fun". I don't like the honor grind in WoW. It's not "fun" backsliding in rank because I was out of town for work and couldn't play for two or three weeks. That sucks. Thats NOT "fun" to me, having to repeat instanced raids over and over isn't "fun". Yes, they are fun the first one or two times but thats enough for me. Once I hit three and four times IT"S NOT FUN anymore its a chore. Repeating quest and raids is not "fun" to me, it breaks the immersion. I tend toward RPG/Immersion type MMO's.
So what type of MMO gamer are you? Arcade/Casual, RPG/Immersive, or Sandbox/Social. Once you know what you are you can better pick a game that best suits your playstyle.
QFT
My beef with most MMOs is how levels 1 through whatever are the exact same boring monster bashing fest and have silly restrictions like not allowing me to play with friends that are 5+ levels away from me. There might be fun things to do, but usually these things are locked out until later in the game after one has put in 300 hours or whatever. And you can say anything you want about the social aspects, but the social aspects have nothing to do with the game. I can find a fun group of friends to play with in any game, or a fun group of people to hang out with in an online chat.
What do I find fun in an MMO? Challenge, adventure/exploring, sandbox/building, and character advancement. What do I find in most MMOs? Character advancement required, which usually revolves around bashing stuff over and over for hours (which is the worst, and what turns me off from most MMOs). Little to no sandbox/building options, adventure/exploring that revolves around whether one is the right level to be in a certain area and facing insta-death if one isn't and even then these areas are nothing more than yet another staging ground for mobs to randomly litter the map, and challenge, which is rarely in any PvE games because of stupid AI, party vs mob mechanics, or very, very stat oriented gameplay.
I'm looking forward to a game a bit more like Counterstrike in style. You play a couple rounds and "advance" by getting better gear. But in the end it doesn't matter if you're holding a $2700 gun and $600 body armor, if you get headshotted by a $0 pistol you still die. There's challenge and character advancement. I'd like something like this on a larger scale, and more tactical than twitch-based.
Right now I'm playing Guild Wars because it provides challenge and adventure/exploring. There's a vague form of character advancement, but not quite what I want. When the Eve expansion comes out, I'll play that for the sandbox/building (since R&D will be revamped), in addition to challenge and non-grind oriented character advancement.
Get off of the MMORPG forums
Put on some pants
Go to bestbuy
Buy "Devil May Cry" doesn't matter which one
Bring it home
Play it
Beat it
Put it in a box and let it sit there for 20 years never to be played again
OR you could get an mmorpg and be able to play as long as you want and never be able to "beat" it, unlimited gameplay ftw?
On the moon, nerds have their pants pulled down and they are spanked with moon rocks!
I find your categories to be insufficient. write your own then, maybe yours are better. I play Guild Wars, which you classify as an Arcade/Casual game, but I dislike WoW which you classify as the same. There's totally different levels of grind involved. I like Eve Online, which you classify as a Sandbox/Social game, but dislike Saga of Ryzom or some other games because they are more grind intensive. I enjoy two types of games, according to you, but dislike many other games within that type.
My beef with most MMOs is how levels 1 through whatever are the exact same boring monster bashing fest and have silly restrictions like not allowing me to play with friends that are 5+ levels away from me. There might be fun things to do, but usually these things are locked out until later in the game after one has put in 300 hours or whatever. And you can say anything you want about the social aspects, but the social aspects have nothing to do with the game. I can find a fun group of friends to play with in any game, or a fun group of people to hang out with in an online chat.
What do I find fun in an MMO? Challenge, adventure/exploring, sandbox/building, and character advancement. What do I find in most MMOs? Character advancement required, which usually revolves around bashing stuff over and over for hours (which is the worst, and what turns me off from most MMOs). Little to no sandbox/building options, adventure/exploring that revolves around whether one is the right level to be in a certain area and facing insta-death if one isn't and even then these areas are nothing more than yet another staging ground for mobs to randomly litter the map, and challenge, which is rarely in any PvE games because of stupid AI, party vs mob mechanics, or very, very stat oriented gameplay.
I'm looking forward to a game a bit more like Counterstrike in style. You play a couple rounds and "advance" by getting better gear. But in the end it doesn't matter if you're holding a $2700 gun and $600 body armor, if you get headshotted by a $0 pistol you still die. There's challenge and character advancement. I'd like something like this on a larger scale, and more tactical than twitch-based.
Right now I'm playing Guild Wars because it provides challenge and adventure/exploring. There's a vague form of character advancement, but not quite what I want. When the Eve expansion comes out, I'll play that for the sandbox/building (since R&D will be revamped), in addition to challenge and non-grind oriented character advancement.
What can I tell ya?
Figure it out yourself then and post your findings
I've planted my opinion squarely where it is at.(right up my arse
) Not all games are designed for all types of players, simple as that. Its all subjective according to individual taste.........
The secret of the universe is hidden in this song.
If I consider something negatively, I don't do it.
I don't mind doing a camp, in a group, for a LOOOOONG time. It isn't something I consider badly, since I am enjoying it. Maybe I am looking a little too much over to the reward side, but as long as I enjoy what I have and that I dream of getting where I wanna get, that is all I am asking from a MMO.
However, a game as WoW enforce foreign gameplays on you. I have no troubles with the grind. I consider raiding as an abberation, if raiding was good it would start at level 1! However, it wait at the end and it hold the rewards to non-raiding activities. Raiding thereby prove to me that it is a plague, an illness, a pox. If raiding was good, why would it need to be superficially rewarding peoples so they are good in grouping? Answer is simple, waiting for the boat in old EQ is just as thrilling as raiding is.
If you can't stand the grind, maybe you should ask yourself why you play these games in the first place. If you can't stand Raiding, PvP, Tradeskills or something just equally lame as far as grouping PvE uberness goes, you are welcome to trash these weak games. It would be like requiring from anyone who wanna play Basketball that they play Baseball first, otherwise they can't acces the best gyms. Completely lame.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Tabletop RPG games have never been about grinding, in fact a lot of tabletop games disallow grinding in their basic mechanics. The current version of D&D, for example, only awards XP for overcoming challenging encounters; if you go out and try to find single weak orcs to kill, you wouldn't get any XP for them at all because there was no challenge to beating them. Pretty much anyone playing a P&P game would ditch it if a GM tried to run in like a MMO.
The grind, as in 'kill several hundreds or thousands of identical creatures in challengeless fights to earn enough XP to hit your next level' is primarily an MMO thing, though it does turn up a bit in other CPRPGs. It is NOT what the games are about, Role-playing games are about assuming the role of a character, not mindlessly repeating a fight until you 'ding'.
Tabletop RPG games have never been about grinding, in fact a lot of tabletop games disallow grinding in their basic mechanics. The current version of D&D, for example, only awards XP for overcoming challenging encounters; if you go out and try to find single weak orcs to kill, you wouldn't get any XP for them at all because there was no challenge to beating them. Pretty much anyone playing a P&P game would ditch it if a GM tried to run in like a MMO.
The grind, as in 'kill several hundreds or thousands of identical creatures in challengeless fights to earn enough XP to hit your next level' is primarily an MMO thing, though it does turn up a bit in other CPRPGs. It is NOT what the games are about, Role-playing games are about assuming the role of a character, not mindlessly repeating a fight until you 'ding'.
I have an "idea" about the whole "grinding" thing. Something along the lines of dynamic encounters instead of static mob spawns.
What I mean is this. Rather then have the same old mobs all spawning in the same areas in a world, strip them out and have an random encounter spawn instead. As you travel from point A to point B, there would be a chance every so often of triggering an encounter. Of course there would still be static ares also like a known Orc camp or a boss mobs lair but wilderness would be random spawns. Random mob encounter check times (frequency) could vary from area to area. The Spawns could, in theory, even be adjusted to suit the level and number of players.
The entire XP thing would need to be redone. It might help remove the same old same old of grinding and add an element of risk as you would never know when or where something might "pop".
It might be difficult to pull off but thats what dev's get paid to do.
If the endgame rocks, then why should people have to work to go and play the endgame? So you can be a part of the elite club of people who actually have fun with the MMO? I guess i don't think being able to have fun with a game should be an accomplishment in and of itself..
I would like to see games that don't end and don't hold the 'endgame' carrot in front of you so that you trudge through a boring as hell opening and midgame..
What is your issue with everyone being competitive on PvP from day 1?
There is no issue with players being competitive in PvP from day 1 - It's just a matter off, how it's implented. Look at EVE for example. Doesn't take long for a player to be able to act as a tackler, a nice lil' frig that holds bigger ships in place for his group(As far as i know). But now, if that little frigate was able to take down a large battleship, something most defently would be wrong. Now, lets take a look at an MMOFPS - World War II Online. From day one, the player is capable of assisting with an assault.. Even as a basic rifleman. He is needed.
But sadly today, many MMORPG's focuses on 'arena style' battles, where low levels have no real need. If MMORPG's focused on making PvP something for everyone to join, no matter level or items, it would be alot more interresting.
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