Israel attacks Lebanon, leaving many dead

slapme7times · July 2006

Originally posted by Sasori
Democracy, taken from the greek words Demos "People" and Kratein "To Govern". Demokrateia "People's Rule" is the rule by the people or tribe. First conceived by Cleisthenes and Pericles during the 5th century BC in Athens. Democracies are found in two forms; Direct and Indirect.

Direct: The people participate directly in elections or the formations of governance through various means which can include Initiatives such as referendums and plebiscites. All matters are voted on by the people.

Indirect: This is the common form of democracy today, often a Republic, in which elected officials make decisions on behalf of the people. These officials are often empowered to appoint people to various authoritative positions beneath their own, in accordance with established law.

Just a quick little bit of info on democracries.

good info but you said

-a republic, in which elected officials make decisions on behalf of the people

i believe that 'behalf' should be elicited with a sarcastic intonation

baff · July 2006

Originally posted by treysmooth
Socialism is a flawed system. We don't hate socialism just to hate it, socialism/communism are flawed forms of government in practice. Great on paper awful in practice is how I describe it. Socialism is great for those who don't want to do for themselves or think for themselves, heck who doesn't want a free ride. There lies the big issue, we live in a global econmy in which the countries that privatize will wipe the floor with those that consolidate power and resources into a bloated bureracy.

I challenge you to give me one example of a global power that A is socialist and B (and this is most important) allows you to rise from being poor to being well off with hard work. I don't need to wait for a answer because the answer is there is none.

Just one?

France, Britain, Germany, italy, Spain, Holland.etc etc etc.

Communism is the most successful form of government on the planet. There are more communists than anyone else. Plenty of communists have become wealthy in one generation, but that is not a goal of communism. Communism and socialism are about collectivity. The betterment of society before the betterment of the individual.

I live in a socialist country and it's a very wealthy country thank you. I have gone from bathing in my kitchen sink to owning 4 bathrooms in one life time (so far).

slapme7times · July 2006

baff-

there has never been a commmunist country before.

if so, name one?

also, the nazi party was not socialist- hitler undermined the working class, and those with power and wealth controlled the means of production. it was no different than our government is today, the rich and powerful working together to become more rich and powerful.

britian isnt a monarchy, it's a constitutional monarchy, the royal family is just a homage to history and a collection of people to put in the enquirer and take focus off the governments actions.

they act now as a 'distraction'

'democracy' does not mean elected leaders, that's a republic.

the power doesnt lie with the people- if you can afford to advertise, then you can control them.

people are creatures that look at information, and come to a conclusion based off that information.

if you're rich, you control how and what information is disseminated into a society, and thus you control the poor.

this is the reason for communism- people recognized that 'democracies' and republics werent serving the common good.

slapme7times · July 2006

Originally posted by baff

Originally posted by treysmooth
Socialism is a flawed system. We don't hate socialism just to hate it, socialism/communism are flawed forms of government in practice. Great on paper awful in practice is how I describe it. Socialism is great for those who don't want to do for themselves or think for themselves, heck who doesn't want a free ride. There lies the big issue, we live in a global econmy in which the countries that privatize will wipe the floor with those that consolidate power and resources into a bloated bureracy.

I challenge you to give me one example of a global power that A is socialist and B (and this is most important) allows you to rise from being poor to being well off with hard work. I don't need to wait for a answer because the answer is there is none.

Just one?

France, Britain, Germany, italy, Spain, Holland.etc etc etc.

Communism is the most successful form of government on the planet. There are more communists than anyone else. Plenty of communists have become wealthy in one generation, but that is not a goal of communism. Communism and socialism are about collectivity. The betterment of society before the betterment of the individual.

I live in a socialist country and it's a very wealthy country thank you. I have gone from bathing in my kitchen sink to owning 4 bathrooms in one life time (so far).

name a single communist country. name one. none of those are communist countries.

in communism, the people control the means of production, the factories, the land, the patents, the everything.

people work together to make life better for each other because they have common goals.

Sasori · July 2006

Vietnam is communist, but they are not doing so well now and are looking for aid on the international scene. China has a communist government and a capitalist socio-economic system now. Kind of a strange combination as by allowing privitization of business they are undermining the fundemental belief of communism. Thus they are actually rapidly becoming merely socialist, and likely within another 50 years they will be a democratic republic with a capitalist socio-economic system.

slapme7times · July 2006

none of these countries are communist they're cults of personality.

like bush, hitler, mao, etc... the entire country ultimately works to support their interests.

public offices dont exist to perform essential tasks of government, they exist to give large paychecks to friends and relatives.

look at bush's cabinet? a bunch of corporate ties is all. nobody votes for those narcissists, but yet they control the policy making.

kenneth lay - the enron head man- was appointed by bush to be secretary of energy.

secretery of energy while at the same time being ceo of Enron!

a company that bought and sold energy!

that's not democracy, communism, or socialism. it's capitalism- the rich take all at the expense of the poor.

China new to privatization? that country is owned solely by the rich and the 'royal' family. it's no different than our country, while we have less royal bloodlines in the news, we sure as hell have royal wealth inhereitances.

whether or not 1 out of 300million people can become wealthy in america is irrelevant- someone will always, by nature of the system be kept poor, on purpose, no matter how hard they work. that is an inevitability of the system.

Sasori · July 2006

Given the general interest people seem to have in politics in this thread I would like to suggest some books for reading.
Politics by Aristotle
Republic by Plato
The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith
The Prince by Nicollo Machiavelli
Das Kapital by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels
Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx
Summa Theologica by Saint Thomas Aquinas
Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes
Utopia by Sir Thomas More
Essay Concerning Human Understanding by John Locke

baff · July 2006

Originally posted by slapme7times

because the richest people are never hard working, rather they are deft liars.
it's not very hard to be born into a rich family, inherit money, have your own business where poor people work for you, and then sit around and watch the money come in.
you call our society 'upwardly mobile'
i suppose you might not enjoy to hear this but...
no matter how hard we all work, someone will still end up working at mcdonalds making 5 dollars and hour.
if every poor person was dumb enough to believe that all they needed to do was work hard to get rich, they'd work themselves to death.
in fact, they do just that in sweat shops all over the world.
you didnt even read my article.
i said it'd take 8 lifetime savings. 8.
8.
nobody lives that long.
and jesus man, do you really expect people to be able to survive not spending a single penny of their income for 8 lifetimes anyways?
realistically, if they saved 50% of their income, it'd take them 16 lifetimes... but seriously. who could survive saving that much money with such a low salary to begin with.
jesus go read my article.

Want me to give you a list of examples of famous Americans who did it in one? Lets start with Arnold Scharzenegger. Rags to riches in one lifetime. Worth more than 8 million? You bet.

Takes 8 lifetimes my arse. You are in one the most easy places in the world to get rich and you are complaining about being poor.

slapme7times · July 2006

this isnt the point.

it's not my welfare i'm concerned about, it's the welfare of my fellow human beings.

you cannot deny that no matter how educated, how smart, how hard working we are, that someone wont inevitably end up stuck scrubbing toliets as a janitor.

i'm quite sure some of the 9 billion people in the world become super wealthy and then make the rest super poor. i know that happens.

rich people stay rich by keeping the poor down, by keeping them breeding so they are cheap labor.

if they break the law, you put them in jail because they're a threat to your superiority.

yes i know all this shit.

Sasori · July 2006

If any of you fancy a work depicting the dirty side of American History I would suggest reading A People's History of the United States: 1492 - Present by Howard Zinn.

slapme7times · July 2006

would this one be about corporations with no respect for the saftey of their workers?

you could also read the jungle... that's a good one about profits

Sasori · July 2006

Hey, I know a Janitor making 60,000 USD each year. Public Education teachers in the US typically make less.

slapme7times · July 2006

lol u serious?

that's fuckin' ludicrus man where does he work?

Sasori · July 2006

He cleans up for an Industrial Park in Bellevue, Washington.

baff · July 2006

Originally posted by slapme7times

Originally posted by baff

Originally posted by treysmooth
Socialism is a flawed system. We don't hate socialism just to hate it, socialism/communism are flawed forms of government in practice. Great on paper awful in practice is how I describe it. Socialism is great for those who don't want to do for themselves or think for themselves, heck who doesn't want a free ride. There lies the big issue, we live in a global econmy in which the countries that privatize will wipe the floor with those that consolidate power and resources into a bloated bureracy.

I challenge you to give me one example of a global power that A is socialist and B (and this is most important) allows you to rise from being poor to being well off with hard work. I don't need to wait for a answer because the answer is there is none.

Just one?

France, Britain, Germany, italy, Spain, Holland.etc etc etc.

Communism is the most successful form of government on the planet. There are more communists than anyone else. Plenty of communists have become wealthy in one generation, but that is not a goal of communism. Communism and socialism are about collectivity. The betterment of society before the betterment of the individual.

I live in a socialist country and it's a very wealthy country thank you. I have gone from bathing in my kitchen sink to owning 4 bathrooms in one life time (so far).

name a single communist country. name one. none of those are communist countries.

in communism, the people control the means of production, the factories, the land, the patents, the everything.

people work together to make life better for each other because they have common goals.

sorry for the misunderstanding I was naming socialist countries.

.

I think you have a basic habit of prescribing ideals, and not describing governments.

You are giving your ideal of how a government should be as you see it, and I am trying to respond to you with how a government actual is. I think perhaps for you Democracy and Communism are defined by your understanding of ideals, and for me they are defined by actual historical governements.

In communism people do not control everything. The state controls everything. In no system of government ever do the people control everything.

Name one communist or democratic regime where the people controlled everything.

I think you wish that the people controlled everything, but so far in the history of man this has never been the case.

slapme7times · July 2006

there will always be some people that are satisfied with the system...

but the vast majority are starving to death, or trapped in sweatshops.

using greed to keep us going is dangerous, because it leads to a callous disregard of each other. eventually when it comes down to it, history proves that everyone has a price, everyone has a point when they'll sacrifice everything and everyone for a sum of money, of gold, of power, of control....

it's not a safe system.

there is no pure politcal system, the united states also has socialist functions as well, but the majority of public funds go back to large corporations through subsidies- you have to remember that

slapme7times · July 2006

i describe governments as theories when we are talking about theories.

china is communist because we call it communist.

but communism is an idea, and china does not represent that idea.

it's a way for rich americans to demonize other ideologies so that we never consider them for what they are, theories about governments.

we look at china, call it communist, and say it's bad. now whenever someone talks about the theory of communism, everyone says 'look at china, we dont wanna be like china do we?'

no matter what country you go to, you'll be poor people stuck in a rich mans game of chess 99.9% of the time ( in the industrialized world)

slapme7times · July 2006

you'll understand the meaning of the lives of the american working class once you go to a south american country.

you can, for 10 dollars or less a month, hire virtually any girl to be your slave/sexual playtoy 24/7.

and they'll be happy to do it for that kind of money.

that's the power extreme wealth gives you over others. it's a pull so strong, it's no wonder rich people work so hard to delude you it doesnt exist

we're only slaves to the wealthy.

slapme7times · July 2006

Originally posted by Sasori
He cleans up for an Industrial Park in Bellevue, Washington.

forgive my ignorance, what's an industrial park?

slapme7times · July 2006

Originally posted by Sasori
Hey, I know a Janitor making 60,000 USD each year. Public Education teachers in the US typically make less.

in utah, a mid-western american state, they make 17k their first year before taxes

baff · July 2006

Originally posted by slapme7times

this isnt the point.
it's not my welfare i'm concerned about, it's the welfare of my fellow human beings.
you cannot deny that no matter how educated, how smart, how hard working we are, that someone wont inevitably end up stuck scrubbing toliets as a janitor.
i'm quite sure some of the 9 billion people in the world become super wealthy and then make the rest super poor. i know that happens.
rich people stay rich by keeping the poor down, by keeping them breeding so they are cheap labor.
if they break the law, you put them in jail because they're a threat to your superiority.
yes i know all this shit.

So what? everyone in the world can't become rich. Some people are happy as janitors, some people are physically, mentally or educationally in capable of becoming more. Being rich isn't the basic human right or even goal of every person on the planet.

Please spare me the miseries of the poor and working class routine. You don't live in Cambodia.

You live in America, no one is keeping you down. They give you as much help as they can to get you up. Free schooling, welfare, the opportunity to find basic employment, and the opportunity to find higher employment. If you have the skills and experience, people will invest in you. God knows what else.

Your experience of poverty is so limited that you cannot recognise all the advantages your society gives you.

I do not think you have ever been hungry for longer than a day or lived in a poor country.

Rich people get rich by working harder and smarter than poor people. I work longer hours and I don't blow all my money on going to the cinema and pub and restaurent. They stay rich by lending poor people their money so that poorer people can get themselves started also.

You describe yourself as working class, but you talk like a student.

Sasori · July 2006

The Industrial Park that he works for, consists of two office buildings and 3 warehouses. He vacuums, cleans restrooms, disposes of trash, etc. It takes him about six hours each night from what I gather.

baff · July 2006

Originally posted by slapme7times

i describe governments as theories when we are talking about theories.
china is communist because we call it communist.
but communism is an idea, and china does not represent that idea.
it's a way for rich americans to demonize other ideologies so that we never consider them for what they are, theories about governments.
we look at china, call it communist, and say it's bad. now whenever someone talks about the theory of communism, everyone says 'look at china, we dont wanna be like china do we?'
no matter what country you go to, you'll be poor people stuck in a rich mans game of chess 99.9% of the time ( in the industrialized world)

Sorry but that's strictly an American Bugbear. The rest of us don't think like that.

slapme7times · July 2006

Originally posted by baff

Originally posted by slapme7times

this isnt the point.
it's not my welfare i'm concerned about, it's the welfare of my fellow human beings.
you cannot deny that no matter how educated, how smart, how hard working we are, that someone wont inevitably end up stuck scrubbing toliets as a janitor.
i'm quite sure some of the 9 billion people in the world become super wealthy and then make the rest super poor. i know that happens.
rich people stay rich by keeping the poor down, by keeping them breeding so they are cheap labor.
if they break the law, you put them in jail because they're a threat to your superiority.
yes i know all this shit.

So what? everyone in the world can't become rich. Some people are happy as janitors, some people are physically, mentally or educationally in capable of becoming more. Being rich isn't the basic human right or even goal of every person on the planet.

exactly, it's not a human right to be rich, ie have disproportionate amounts of control over others.

Please spare me the miseries of the poor and working class routine. You don't live in Cambodia.

no i dont, but somebody does, and that bothers me

You live in America, no one is keeping you down. They give you as much help as they can to get you up. Free schooling, welfare, the opportunity to find basic employment, and the opportunity to find higher employment. If you have the skills and experience, people will invest in you. God knows what else.

is america the bastion of prosperity all of a sudden? there's lots of people below the poverty line, and SOMEBODY has to work those jobs. no, i do not think mentally retarded people desire to be poor. only a sicophanitc society would suggest that.

Your experience of poverty is so limited that you cannot recognise all the advantages your society gives you.

i know enough about it to consider it a problem.

I do not think you have ever been hungry for longer than a day or lived in a poor country.

never 'lived' in a poor country because i was born here, which means i speak and write in english which dictates my opinions on the way things are. just because i was born here doesnt mean i have the priviledge to fuck everyone not born here over.

Rich people get rich by working harder and smarter than poor people. I work longer hours and I don't blow all my money on going to the cinema and pub and restaurent. They stay rich by lending poor people their money so that poorer people can get themselves started also.

small business gets crushed by big business. walmart is a perfect example of what capitalism is designed to do. consolidate wealth and monopolize industries.

You describe yourself as working class, but you talk like a student.

i'm not working class, do i have to be working class to care about working class people?

Sasori · July 2006

I was homeless for a month and ate food from a trash can. It is not too terribly bad, you get use to your own smell after a while. The idea of eating someone else's trash is degrading at first, but hey it's survival. A few odd jobs later and help from friends and I got back on my feet. The truth is, life is what you make of it, you can rise from being poor to being wealthy. Will you be accepted into the social circles of the elite, unlikely, but think not simply of yourself. Think of the future you can provide your descendants. If you achieve even a simple rise from poor to middle class, you have achieved something great. For you have laid the foundations for future generations of your family to build upon. One day, even if it is several generations down the line, perhaps one of your descendants could be a member of the social elite, and would look back upon your memory transcribed in a book of geneology, and regail his or her children with stories of the strife you endured to build a greater future for them. That is immortality, a far greater reward in my opinion.

Minimum Wage, another name Slavery.

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