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Anofalye
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433
Here is an explanation on why SOLO is not been catered to in their game, quote from their FAQ.
Now, will these people like Vanguard? Good question. I think some will, and some won't. You *will* be able to solo in Vanguard, but it will be more difficult, you will advance more slowly, and you won't be able to realistically access many areas (and so will either not obtain some better items or have to buy/trade for them). That will turn some solo players off and while we regret that, I don't see how we could cater to them and our primary target audience both: those who like to group. But I think there are other solo players who don't mind this. If they want something, they don't mind deciding to either not worry about it, or perhaps to group on a rare occasion and see that area or obtain that item, or even save their money and buy it in-game. This subset of solo player is usually less competitive and more focused on his character and his accomplishments and less on what other people are doing. That solo player I think could have a great time in Vanguard.
How do you think that you can cater to the GROUPING target audience and to the RAIDING target audience? You can't. ATM, you are catering to the RAIDING at the expanse of grouping.
RAIDING KILLS GROUPING, same logic as above but replace a few words so solo and grouping change for grouping and raiding. Yet, somehow, they say that they cater to GROUPERS, which is a freaking LIE. They cater to RAIDER.
Applying the same logic, best loot has to belong to groupers, not to raiders, raiders have to progress slower and never access some zones that groupers does, saying otherwise is invalidating your previous statement.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Comments
i would agree with you 100% if someone is to ONLY raid and refuse to group or solo. if a soloer refuses to group and raid then yeah its ganna be harder for him.
but a raider is going to solo,group, and raid....your logic is flawed my friend, think about it for just a minute.
i would agree with you 100% if someone is to ONLY raid and refuse to group or solo. if a soloer refuses to group and raid then yeah its ganna be harder for him.
but a raider is going to solo,group, and raid....your logic is flawed my friend, think about it for just a minute.
A Raider isn't going to group. He will group until he can get a raid going. Not the same, not the same at all. A soloer is going to group, until he can get better XP soloing. Same logic, YOUR logic is flawed and thanks for saying I am your friend, but I don't really know you, unless you have multiples names. A grouper won't abandon his group in a Deep Dungeon...A raider does that on a regular basic.
TARGET AUDIENCE: GROUPERS
BEST REWARDS: RAIDERS
So they are making a game where they reward peoples OUTSIDE their target audience? This is flawed beyond comon sense, unless they are afraid to openly state who is their real target audience. But they keep saying it is grouping, not raiding, they say raiding is minority, thereby not target audience...now check how they act. Sigil is: LYING on purpose, a half truth that lead to a misconception is worser than a blatant lie, when understood.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
So let me see if I understand clearly what you are saying.
You have taken something from their FAQ - then you want to replace the words solo and group with group and raid and use it as the basis for your argument.
Hello - how about finding the section in the FAQ that relates to grouping and raiding. Otherwise you are just making stuff up.
I thought Sigil stated in the faq's the bulk of content will cater to groups and that the best chance for rare special items would be based on risk of the encounter, but after all a raid is just a group of groups working together. So a raid is a group just a big group yes/no/maybe so/I don't know
Plus, there's something to be said about soloing harder content as the game ages. Anyone remember being able to put down an EQ sand giant with a couple nukes? Charming them? Or Lucan D'lere with a couple DOTs...
So damn rewarding!
Reading this i wonder how many or how long you have been playing MMOs.
A. A raider doesn't join a grp till a raid starts. They group up to get their level up so they may raid. Thus, you need a strong grouping system. This is why they seem to be focused on both areas since raiding is almost always end game.
B. A raider doesn't join a grp till a raid starts. Raids arn't instant unlike grouping. They take a week or two of careful planning, researching the area, researching the mob, and giving everyone notice time for maximum turn-out.
C. Raiders won't abandon groupers in a deep dungeon. A raider won't say "Hey, it's 7:45 and i have a raid at 8, but hey, i'll join a grp as the healer and then screw them down there in 15 and risk being late to the raid". Chances are he won't be a raider much longer with that logic.
D. Everyone pisses and moans for no raiding becase they won't have the best gear and don't have time to dedicate to raiding. Well for one, i thought i read crafted items will be on par with the best gear in the game. Defeats that argument for no raiding (it should be in the FAQs).
E. A bit off topic but i have a hard time understanding what people will do when they hit level cap with no raiding. Endlessly/mindlessly killing mobs with no reward besides slightly better gear and chump change? You need something else to do and immersing yourself in the lore around the big boss mobs/ledgends with 40 of your friends/guildmates seems to be the best idea(unless you have a better one).
As you can clearly see i am all for raiding. And yes grouping and raiding can co-exist...easily. As a matter of fact they HAVE to co-exist. W/o a good raiding system how will you keep maxxed players around? W/o a good grping system how will you keep raiders around (or even get them to raiding level for that matter)?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
i would agree with you 100% if someone is to ONLY raid and refuse to group or solo. if a soloer refuses to group and raid then yeah its ganna be harder for him.
but a raider is going to solo,group, and raid....your logic is flawed my friend, think about it for just a minute.
A Raider isn't going to group. He will group until he can get a raid going. Not the same, not the same at all. A soloer is going to group, until he can get better XP soloing. Same logic, YOUR logic is flawed and thanks for saying I am your friend, but I don't really know you, unless you have multiples names. A grouper won't abandon his group in a Deep Dungeon...A raider does that on a regular basic.
TARGET AUDIENCE: GROUPERS
BEST REWARDS: RAIDERS
So they are making a game where they reward peoples OUTSIDE their target audience? This is flawed beyond comon sense, unless they are afraid to openly state who is their real target audience. But they keep saying it is grouping, not raiding, they say raiding is minority, thereby not target audience...now check how they act. Sigil is: LYING on purpose, a half truth that lead to a misconception is worser than a blatant lie, when understood.
For god's sake Anofalye... you come across as an obessed zealot with all this shouting and yelling. I can almost see you sitting at your keyboard frothing at the mouth while you hammer away.
I know what I say won't pierce the fog of byle and hate you so blatanly have for a game it's obvious you will never play (jeez.. actaully... ranting on and on in a forum about a game you will never ever play... you would think there is a better way to spend a life...), but I will try to explain to you something if you will calm down for a few seconds and try to absorb it.
Firstly though, just to clarify, raiding in VG is an 'end game' (if such a thing exists in MMORPGs) *option*. The 'best rewards' in the game will come partially from it of course, but they will also be sourced from other activities as well. Noone will be forced to raid if they don't wish, as there will be other avenues to follow if you hate it.
As for your 'groupers' vs 'raiders' rubbish though.. well... I don't really know where to start tbh. Talk about going out looking for a fight when none exists.
'Raiders' *are* 'groupers' as well... Traditionally, very little if any XP is gained from raids and raiders need to grind and complete quest lines as much as any other. What makes their needs any different then what you are calling a 'grouper'? Only the most dedicated guilds raid every night.... Most go out only 1 or 2 nights a week, usually planned about a week in advance of the event. What do you really think 'Raiders' do when it isnt happening? Sit around scratching?
An honest question. are you saying that you really have never had what you would call 'groupers' leave a group in a dungeon or mid quest? In my experience, players leave and join groups on a cnstant basis for a number of reasons, only one of which is an impromtu guild raid being called. People leaving mid quest is just a fact of this type of game. I really don't know what you are inventing this as an issue.
While casual play groupers may not choose/ be able to raid, raiders *are* groupers by defintion, and so your entire assertion is very silly. Your entire point is based on an abstract and false definition you have imposed on us in your own heade of how people play. You are trying to force people into boxes that don't exist to enforce a rant about nothing.
btw, I am really sorry the guy before you called you 'friend'. It was obviously his mistake.
Noone is lying. Sigil have been open and straight forward from day one in my experience, and the fact that you have to look so hard to invent reasons to rant speaks volumes about the real lack od reasons you can find to attack them.
So much hate about nothing.
I understood from the developer's Q&A on Dungeons and Quests.
Makes me unhappy to see the game going that way.
Target audience: young and older gamers alike, EQ fans, etc.
Should be quite enough.
"Boldly go to where no one has gone before..."
Originally posted by Agricola1
I don't think they have any one target audience, it seems they're trying to cater to everyone at some level. As for crafted items being on par with best looted items, that has to be crap. Even if it was true it'd be changed within 3 months, there is no game (that I've ever played anyway) where the very best crafted items are the same as the very best looted items for a good reason.
Here's how it's currently broken down. Crafting items are better than soloable items, and higher end crafting items are on par with the best group content available. Here's the thing though, crafting doesn't work like other MMORPGs, you will not be able to craft the best items by just being a solo crafter. You will have to have help from Adventurers and Diplomacy, just like the Adventuring sphere depends on the other two spheres to get the best content. The BEST items, if you want to look at it that way then, require all three spheres. You will not be able to get the best items solely on Adventuring alone, you will need the help of a crafter. I hope that makes things a bit more clearer.
Ahh, more brain damage caused by the Cult of the Raid. Did you read the OP? How about GROUP CONTENT. How about immersing yourself in the lore around the big boss mobs/ legends with 6 of your friends/guildies at a time? That is a much better idea. They're already promising that it will be 80% of the game, it would make sense that someone at level cap would mostly participate in 80% of the game instead of 20%.It's also funny that you think endlessly/mindlessly killing mobs with no reward besides better gear is a terrible thing, since that's a good description of raiding.
Also, please don't abuse the words "friends" by calling guildmantes in your raid guild by the term; actual friends do not need a complex accounting system to distribute video game loot. If your friends can't decide who gets a pair of pixelated pants without tracking attendance, they're not actually your friends.
and alsoThe lead developer of the game disagrees with both of your assertions about the game; if you don't raid your gear will be worse than the gear of someone who does. The fact that you support the game by denying clear statements by the man in charge of making it says quite a lot.
From: http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1291339#post1291339
From: http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=586&expand=591#faq591
The lead developer of the game disagrees with both of your assertions about the game; if you don't raid your gear will be worse than the gear of someone who does. The fact that you support the game by denying clear statements by the man in charge of making it says quite a lot.
What I say is true, based on the same post you make below. Why did you post a statement that agrees with me and then claim it dosent..?
The second post you offer is obviously saying that raiding should be rewarded, and I agree with that view personaly, but the word *MOST* is essential in this. It disagrees with nothing I have said. While obviously raiding is important to this game, if you wish to just group and not raid at the top level, there *will* be 'ubr' gear for you. You just won't have access to a lot of it, but thats your choice.
I don't really understand why you left all that reference to CRs in the second statement by Brad tho... not really relevant.
34.6. What's your rationale behind making raid rewards better than most party rewards?
Seriously, this whole thing all boils down to the fact that if your gonna play VG and don't want to raid, then you just have got to accept you will *not* have access to *all* the top end content and gear. Your *choice* to not participate in this element of the game will of course have an impact. I never have claimed otherwise. If I choose to not craft, I would miss out on that part of the game... If I choose to not explore diplomacy, because it didnt appeal to me, I would miss out on that, if I choose to not develop my home, or even a player city with friends, I would misss out on that... It's all choice, and raiding is no different. The fact remains though that you can play the game and have a great time with no raids.
Sure, you can have great gear without raiding, sure you can have fun and a great rep, and sure you can excell in your chosen role, but there of course will be parts of the game that are closed to you due to your prefered play style.
Alternitively, if you expect to play for an hour day solo, never invest in the game or it's community, and expect to be given all the best loot out there then maybe this isnt the game for you.
Either way, it's maybe time to accept the facts and either play or move on.
I agree and have decided that if I want to play Vanguard to the fullest I must participate in all areas of the game -- including raiding.
Okay, on a personal note, the class polls indicate -- as usual -- that the Healer Classes will be under-represented. Also noting that the Healer Classes in Vanguard seem to be rather formidable, which very much reminds me of the tough healers (Cleric, Friar) in DAoC. My experience with playing a Cleric in DAoC was my very first time at playing a primary healer and I have to say that it was a very rewarding experience.
Basing my decisions on that experience, I would have to say that, although I tend to prefer the Ranger or Druid or Monk gameplay style, in a game like Vanguard I think there will be much to be said for playing a Cleric, Disciple, Shaman or Blood Mage. (The healer-monk Disciple class actually sounds fascinating to me.)
This is only to say that since Vanguard is a group-oriented game, and if you would like to a valuable and sought-after member of groups and raids, then my main characters may all be healers -- just for the practicality of it.
~ Ancient Membership ~
This is where you go wrong. Grouping Rewards are on par or equal to Raiding rewards.
Likewise, some (20%) of the best gear can only be achieved through soloing.
One sec...lemme find you a link.
Edit: Bah. Can someone with more time (or better at finding quotes on the FAQ) the quote where Brad says that the Best AC Chest Piece might come from a raid and the best Fire Resist Helm might come from a Group Dungeon.
Originally you said:
Which is, quite simply, not true, as the material I quoted shows and you even agree with later. Raiding is not an "option" if you mind being a second-class citizen; if you do not raid then your gear will be worse than the gear a raider has overall. It's silly to swing around the red herring of 'some of the best items come from other sources'; it's completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion.
There simply are not other avenues to follow to get gear equal to what a raider will have, there are only ways to get second rate substitutes. As you yourself said, "Seriously, this whole thing all boils down to the fact that if your gonna play VG and don't want to raid, then you just have got to accept you will *not* have access to *all* the top end content and gear."
That depends on what you mean by 'ubr'. The prefix 'uber-' means 'the best', and that's what the slang word 'uber' is usually used to mean too. So if you're using your word 'ubr' to mean 'second-rate gear' then it's true, there will be plenty of second-rate gear for you. But if you're using it to mean what uber normally means, then no, you won't.
So what you're saying is that "if you don't raid your gear will be worse than the gear of someone who does."
As long as you don't mind being a second class citizen, saddled with worse gear than the raiders, forever second-rate even in non-raid content. I certainly won't pay money for that kind of 'fun', I can ram my head into a brick wall for free.
Ahh yes, the Cult of the Raid showing through again. Even if the thread is clearly about grouping versus raiding, and no matter how many times people talk about grouping, somehow you think that a silly comment about being given all the best loot (which no one asked for except raiders, of course) while playing for an hour at a time (no one was discussing playtime), playing solo (even though people were clearly discussing grouping), and never investing in the community (even though people were clearly discussing participating in the community).
Is it something in the kool-aid they give you guys when you join up?
It's certainly interesting to me that so many Vanguard fans really seem to want people to play the game who won't enjoy it, as they ask people pointing out facts about the game not to post. I can understand why a raider would, since there's no point to raiding if there's no one to lord your 'leet raid gear over, but I'm not sure about some of the others.
If I didn't quote the whole thing, people would whine that I dropped context even though I actually wouldn't be. As you demonstrated so well, people can find pointless things to nitpick in quotes no matter what you do.
double
Which is, quite simply, not true, as the material I quoted shows and you even agree with later.
erm.. No, I didnt... You are starting to grasp at straws now.
Raiding is not an "option"
Yes, it is. I stated that from the start, and so did Brad in his statement. Maybe time for you to go back and read what he said to refresh yourself. Anyhow, can I ask *how* do you know not raiding isnt optional? Have you actually played the game? I would be interested in your source that gives you such a cast iron knowledge of a game that won't be even released for 6 months... I'm basing my views on the Dev posts, I am genuinely interested in where yours come from.
if you mind being a second-class citizen; if you do not raid then your gear will be worse than the gear a raider has overall. It's silly to swing around the red herring of 'some of the best items come from other sources'; it's completely and utterly irrelevant to the discussion.
Am I crazy, or did Brad in the statement *you posted* clearly and openly say that he sees no reason why someone who who dosent raid won't be able to have the most powerful gear in the game if they so choose? Please, go back and reread that before you post again.. it's very important.
There simply are not other avenues to follow to get gear equal to what a raider will have
You know more then Devs about this? Brad seems to think otherwise... and clearly states that in the 'statement you posted*. I'm surprised that you have a better source of information then the CeO of Sigil...
there are only ways to get second rate substitutes. As you yourself said, "Seriously, this whole thing all boils down to the fact that if your gonna play VG and don't want to raid, then you just have got to accept you will *not* have access to *all* the top end content and gear."
No... the point I am making is that you will not have access to *all* the top end content and gear from drops, not *none* of it... Some of the gear you can get via grouping will be as good as raid gear, as has clearly been stated. And thats without the other avenues you can gain top end raid gear, such as buying it off raiders from all that coin you end up with from grouping all the time for instance.
Yes...
That depends on what you mean by 'ubr'.
I mean it to mean the best.
The prefix 'uber-' means 'the best',
ahh, yes, there we go. Thanks.
and that's what the slang word 'uber' is usually used to mean too.
yeah? Well, a day you learn something is certainly never a day wasted, thats for sure.
So if you're using your word 'ubr' to mean 'second-rate gear' then it's true,
Erm.. No, I am not.
there will be plenty of second-rate gear for you. But if you're using it to mean what uber normally means, then no, you won't.
/boggle
So what you're saying is that "if you don't raid your gear will be worse than the gear of someone who does."
Thanks for telling me what I was saying...
No, once again... I said you won't have access to *all* the top end content and gear unless you raid, meaning that if you don't raid you will not get the drops. I have also said that the gear will be attainable in other ways, but you continue to ignore the parts of my posts that you cannot try to pick apart. Both in my posts, and the one *that you posted* from Brad, it has been made clear again and again that there will be other ways to gain this gear. I'm starting to wonder at this point why this won't sink in btw...
As long as you don't mind being a second class citizen,
/sigh... non raid gear gear dosent make you a 'second class citizen'... Not understanding this is probably why you are so frustrated by those that appear to have 'more' then you. Even if it did, it has has been made abundently clear that *everyone* will be able to gain top end gear if they play well in whatever style they choose.
saddled with worse gear than the raiders, forever second-rate even in non-raid content. I certainly won't pay money for that kind of 'fun', I can ram my head into a brick wall for free.
I'm actually bored of typing the same points out again and again now... I have a feeling that you really really don't want to like this game lol
Please understand, you don't *have* to pay money. You don't *have* to play. We, honestly, won't cry. You have my blessing to find another game to call home.
Ahh yes, the Cult of the Raid showing through again.
I joined a cult?? Do I get to live on a ranch??
Even if the thread is clearly about grouping versus raiding, and no matter how many times people talk about grouping, somehow you think that a silly comment about being given all the best loot (which no one asked for except raiders, of course)
Erm... you have spent this entire debate whining about not getting access to all the best loot from drops and being a 'second class citizen'...
while playing for an hour at a time (no one was discussing playtime), playing solo (even though people were clearly discussing grouping), and never investing in the community (even though people were clearly discussing participating in the community).
/sigh.. ok... I really don't think you will ever get what I am saying, which I suspect is only half on purpose. If you are intent on not seeing what I said there as a observation of the broader context of your mentality and miss the point I was making about the casual gamer movement, then good luck to you!
Is it something in the kool-aid they give you guys when you join up?
I missed out on the kool-aid??
It's certainly interesting to me that so many Vanguard fans really seem to want people to play the game who won't enjoy it,
er.. what? I have stated over and over there are many many ways that you will be able to play VG in an enjoyable manner at the high end game without raiding... *and* be well equipped while doing it. This is probably your most 'remarkable' statement yet.
as they ask people pointing out facts about the game not to post.
Ah no, this one is even bettter.
I have never asked you to not post... though I indeed do wonder why you do... There are games I don't like and never will play, but I have never headed over to their forums to trash the game they love. As well as respecting others right to enjoy the game they want to play, I also have better things to do, like have fun and stuff. Of course, 'fun' is subjective and if idea of fun is bickering over a game you will *never play* then I conceed the point, though not without some worry for you.
I can understand why a raider would, since there's no point to raiding if there's no one to lord your 'leet raid gear over, but I'm not sure about some of the others.
Again. *Everyone* will have access to 'leet' gear. If you are successful at what you do then you will be as well equipped as anyone out there. If you arnt successful... well... maybe thats what worries you?
If I didn't quote the whole thing, people would whine that I dropped context even though I actually wouldn't be. As you demonstrated so well, people can find pointless things to nitpick in quotes no matter what you do.
I didn't nitpick.. I merely stated I didnt understand why you used the text out of context... Please feel free to remove any unnecessery white noise from your quotes in the future. I promise to not bring you to task over it.
This is where you go wrong. Grouping Rewards are on par or equal to Raiding rewards.
Likewise, some (20%) of the best gear can only be achieved through soloing.
One sec...lemme find you a link.
Edit: Bah. Can someone with more time (or better at finding quotes on the FAQ) the quote where Brad says that the Best AC Chest Piece might come from a raid and the best Fire Resist Helm might come from a Group Dungeon.
Do I look like someone who care about the best FIRE RESIST helm? I want to know that I have access to ALL the best tools inside GROUPING, including that AC breastplate. If I want to play hockey, I want the ranking to be done about hockey game, not about the results of baseball games!
Vesa: I don't feel like I even have to answer you, Pan did wonderfully, you keep avoiding and dodging Pan's arguments as Pan keep smashing yours down.
Just as remember since peoples seem to forget:
TARGET AUDIENCE: GROUPERS
BEST REWARDS: AWARDED IN RAIDING EXCUSIVELY FOR A SIGNIFICANT PART, ENOUGH TO MAKE ALL GROUPERS SECOND CLASS CHARACTERS COMPARED TO RAIDERS.
That is just silly, let's have a party for KIDS, but we give all the desserts to the PARENTS only, kids are restricted to vegetables! Then we make sure the parents eat the desserts in front of the kids while they are stuck with vegetables only.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
This is where you go wrong. Grouping Rewards are on par or equal to Raiding rewards.
Likewise, some (20%) of the best gear can only be achieved through soloing.
One sec...lemme find you a link.
Edit: Bah. Can someone with more time (or better at finding quotes on the FAQ) the quote where Brad says that the Best AC Chest Piece might come from a raid and the best Fire Resist Helm might come from a Group Dungeon.
Do I look like someone who care about the best FIRE RESIST helm? I want to know that I have access to ALL the best tools inside GROUPING, including that AC breastplate. If I want to play hockey, I want the ranking to be done about hockey game, not about the results of baseball games!
Vesa: I don't feel like I even have to answer you, Pan did wonderfully, you keep avoiding and dodging Pan's arguments as Pan keep smashing yours down.
Just as remember since peoples seem to forget:
TARGET AUDIENCE: GROUPERS
BEST REWARDS: AWARDED IN RAIDING EXCUSIVELY FOR A SIGNIFICANT PART, ENOUGH TO MAKE ALL GROUPERS SECOND CLASS CHARACTERS COMPARED TO RAIDERS.
That is just silly, let's have a party for KIDS, but we give all the desserts to the PARENTS only, kids are restricted to vegetables! Then we make sure the parents eat the desserts in front of the kids while they are stuck with vegetables only.
FFS lol
No wonder you don't wanna answer me... you would actually have to absorb something and think about it. The fact that Pan contradicts himself and keeps hammering away at the same (disproven repeatedly) point shows he, like you, lacks any kind of ability to do more then then talk talk talk. You never actually *listen*. No wonder you don't wanna debate with me... you would actually have to rationalise your stubbornness in the face of facts if you did.
Pan does this by simply ignoring the points he feels are so correct he cannot argue them (lets be honest... even the ones he feels he *can* argue he fails to do so miserably by contradicting and confusing himself as he hammers away at one redundent idea...), and you do *exactly* the same.
Once more for the slow kids at the back...
In the statement *Pantastic* himself posted from Brad, it is *clearly* stated that the lead dev and CEO of Sigil sees *no* reason why non raiders shouldnt be geared with the most powerful items in the game at the top end.
You may not get that gear for 'free' through drops, and you may not see all the top end content, but you *will* be able to get geared up if you wish. What part of that are you struggling with? I'm starting to think theres some kinda defficiency around here...
You and Pan suffer from the same tunnel vision and need to flog a dead horse to the point of insanity to the that I am starting to think that you are the same person posting under different accounts. The styles are purposefully different, and of course they would be, but the personality is the same behind them.
With this in mind, and the fact that all you 'both' do is force me to keep answering the *same* disproven and worthless arguments again and again while you ignore what is just so obvious, I am done with you 'both'. I have said what I have to say, you can take what you want and ignore what you want, I am past caring. 'Neither' of you are capable of broadening your point to make this an interesting or worthwhile discussion.
I'm bored of feeding the trolls and justifying your reason for living
. Enjoy the game you actually end up playing, I am just very happy it won't be VG. 
As for them being misleading- I disagree. Raids usually produce less experience and, although a lot of boss kit can be found, there are more people to distribute the gear- your chances of getting nice gear on a group are doubled that of good gear in a group.
They also have their risk/reward system where deaths and such will be given penelties based on the amount of risk involved.
Catering to just raids? I really have no idea (I haven't played yet), but will I care? If it means I'll have no fun playing it after I bought it: yes. Otherwise- I won't care at all.
-W.
I just think it's funny at how they complain that you can't get ALL of the most powerful items in the game without raiding, and therefore the game is not casual friendly.
....when that is EXACTLY how WoW operates.... You know, that little game that is championed as The Casual MMORPG