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Death Penalties?

I was thinking just now about some faults some games have with the idea of that players just don't care if they die, due to very light death penalties a certain game gives off. Last thing I want to happen to WAR is that we have such a great game but all of a sudden, people just don't care if they die if a random fight. This has happened to me one too many times in WoW where no one really cares what happens.

I'm not asking for a deduction in experience points, but something that will give people an incentive to stay alive. Especially if I plan on being a healing class to help keep the party moving, I want an incentive for other players to keep an eye on me so I don't become target number 1 for the opposing party, eventually leading to the defeat of the entire party. Right now from the videos I have seen there doesn't seem to be much of a penalty but the videos don't really tell much to begin with.

Anyone have any information?


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Comments

  • x_rast_xx_rast_x Member Posts: 745

    Personally I'd like to see a 'sliding' penality that becomes more severe as you gain levels.  One of the things that drove me nuts in WoW was that every idiot eventually got to 60.  If you played a cornerstone class (Healer or Tank) it became mandatory to keep lists of who to preferentially take in your parties and who to never take along.  I'd like to see exp loss in PvE deaths, but only above halfway to the cap, with the last quarter of the levels the penalty being very severe (perhaps loss of all xp earned in the current level).

    I would like to see a system that discourages people from dying a lot in PvP as well, both during the level grind and at the cap.  One of the great unsung things about DAOC was if you died in PvP and didn't get rezzed, you got booted clear out of the zone or to a very distant bindstone.  This made suicide rushes unheard of and rezzers/healers valueable in PvP, instead of the stupid GY zerging crap we have in the battlegrounds in WoW.  I'd like to see this PvP death system carried over.

  • VideoXPGVideoXPG Member Posts: 268

    I agree with the idea of being a Healer in WoW. I always got into groups where people didn't care for aggro management and I usually died several times during an instance run with Pick-Up-Groups. Dying in general makes me upset, but most people didn't care and laregly didn't care if I died. Made is very frustrating.

    The DoaC penalties seem more ideal for such a PvP-centric game, seeing as most people are going to die numerous times during the game, some form of heavy XP loss seems a little harsh. But nontheless if it proves to be the best solution, more power to the game. Anything to discourage being killed is fine in my book.

    Although an XP loss will make some of the jerks gank lower players a lot more, just to see them go through a lot of that again.

  • x_rast_xx_rast_x Member Posts: 745

    I apologize if I was unclear.. I meant to say that I would support a system in which you lost xp from PvE deaths.  Also, in DAOC you only lost XP if you released, if you got rezzed you lost no (or very little.. it's been a long time) experiance.

    Thus, a good group could grind xp very well because even if someone went down they could be rezzed, whereas a poor group wouldn't hold together long because if you wiped you lost a lot of experiance.

    Any good death system only punishes stupidity.  Being rezzed should never incur a penalty as it promotes teamwork.  PvP deaths discourage suicide tactics but otherwise be a lot softer, you don't want people to get overly frustrated or disourage people from taking risks.  That's why I liked the DAOC PvP death system, if your group wiped you got to sit on a teleport pad for five minutes with your friends discussing why you all got killed, or run all the way back across the frontier having the same discussion.

    One thing I would also like to see though, for PvP deaths is a black screen, maybe it could say "You are dead" or something like.  Suicide scouts are another thing on my list of annoying PvP semi-exploits.

  • bloodseekerbloodseeker Member Posts: 17
    thats ur opinion...i do think wow players dont like to die...what if u die during a instance and u have no priest or the priest is dead and u got no pali or he is dead...etc :P Than u really need a warlock for the soulstone if u dont have 1 ur dead and u hate that...and walking from the spirit healer to ur corpse isn't to lovely...and btw in battlegrounds the death penaltie is that ur rank can decreas...everybody can see the rank list at the end and they can all see how newbye u are and how many times u died :D
  • LumsterLumster Member Posts: 230

    @VideoXPG

    Go answer your question yourself, the penalties are pretty much already in stone:

    http://feature.mmosite.com/content/2006-08-10/20060810203657273.shtml

    There will be looting, but generated.

    Of course "hardcore" gamers (that's what they call themselves) wont like that because their world is only black and white. They say no harsh death penalties = no good pvp
    I highly disagree and think mythic found a good way to handle death. If they really want harsher penalties they can go play AoC or Vanguard.

  • NecrocellNecrocell Member Posts: 53
    i think having a sever death penalty is great. Ur example of WoW is perfect, while playing it u dont mind if you die and you lose barely any exp. and u can either spawn where u died lol, or take a 10min pernaly to stats, whereas in Eve0online everyone is alot more careful of wheteher they die or not as if you dont have a sufficent clone or insurance you could be set back quite a bit permeantly!!
  • ram3oram3o Member Posts: 134

    I dont understand the need for DP, expecally for PvP.  If you compare it to WoW, you die very easy in WoW.  I play a rogue and lot of my victoms have no fighting chance.  I dont think its fair for them, saying ha, ha.  You had no fighting chance against my stun-lock.  If there was DP, then there be nothing but turtling in WoW.  Example, WSG if my team just turtle the flag, and wait for the Alliance to come and kill them X amout of time so that there DP is so high that they be no match for us, is a bad ideal.

    Some of the best matches I had was pushing it to the limit in PvP.  I mean if I was fighting a rank 14 warrior who can kill me in 2 crit hits is like one of my favorite matches in the game.  I most-likly lose, but in order for me to win, I have to play Perfectly.  I have to have total control over the warrior.  However if I lose, and have to make it up with some type of DP, then I would left WoW and gone to TFC and CS.  What if your play CS, and you die, and you end up watching your teamate cowarding by your spawn point while there 20 secs left in the game.  I think its kind of the same thing with WoW, when you see the battle doesnt go your way and start flee other then to see if the underdogs can overcome.

    However, I dont like to die in WoW.  Each time I die I get piss and figure out what I can do better.  Yes some of the maps like AB or AV, rez kind of get anoying while trying to cap the flag.  However I watch my friend play Dark Age of Camelot.  I watch him go to some fort where he had to wait for mages to teleport him to RvR.  Then I watch him die, and went back to town on his fraction side.  Take a horse back to the fort.  Wait 5 mins for the mage to Teleport him.  All in All took about 20 mins to get back in to battle.  Not Worth the time or effort if you just want to play a solid PvP game if you ask me.  That why I never played DoaC.

    But if people get a kick out of time sink DP.  Good for them.  However I would get annoyed if I played CS or TFC and whenever I die, my computer shuts off, then restart ever 20 mins.  People might say then Dont Die.  But I dont get a kick out of outnumber my oppenents where they dont have a fighting chance so I can avoid DP.

  • Bama1267Bama1267 Member UncommonPosts: 1,822
     Ive played enough mmorpgs and debt is rediculous. It doesnt discourage from idiotic game play and people will still iti max level without having any notion of how to play there class with or without it. The only thing it does is make people safer. Why take a risk if its going to cause you debt? Why do a pickup group if its probably going to be loaded with noobs? So people go with the safe bet....do things within your level and with your guild.
  • GreyfaceGreyface Member Posts: 390
    In my experience, harsh death penalties don't discourage stupiditiy.  They discourage PvP, which kind of defeats the point of WAR.  It does not matter how ub3r l33+ you are, if you PvP you will die again and again and again.  That's the nature of the beast.  If Mythic wants to make an accessible PvP game, they have no choice but to keep the death penalties light.
  • checkthis500checkthis500 Member Posts: 1,236


    Originally posted by Greyface
    In my experience, harsh death penalties don't discourage stupiditiy.  They discourage PvP, which kind of defeats the point of WAR.  It does not matter how ub3r l33+ you are, if you PvP you will die again and again and again.  That's the nature of the beast.  If Mythic wants to make an accessible PvP game, they have no choice but to keep the death penalties light.


    I disagree that harsh death penalties discourage PvP.  Games like UO and EVE will probably always be around and they have some of the harshest death penalties.  I think it's the combination of harsh death penalties with only being able to get items with a .000001% drop rate in a 4 hour instance and harsh death penalties that would break a game.

    ---------------------------------------------
    I live to fight, and fight to live.

  • Solution9Solution9 Member Posts: 31
    I believe that a harsh DP is needed but not to the extend of XP loss
    like FFXI. I was reading some of these posts and I came up with an idea
    (probably bad and/or not harsh enough), what is War takes a concept of
    DP from CoH/CoV with debt except take it a step further. You die you
    incure debt but you don't gain XP or even level till the debt is payed
    off. In CoH you can still level in debt but it just takes forever to do
    so. It is just such a fustrating thing to deal with who would want to
    die? Am I wrong is that not enough of a deturance to prevent people for
    caring of living or dieying? The only downside about DP in general but
    unavoidable are those who just like to kill people for the mear
    pleasure to put those in a fustrating time of death. I also play a
    healer in CoH and I roleplay my character(s) quite well and I get upset
    when someone dies because it was my fault that someone on my team died
    and I would hate for that to happen. I to would want to be assured that
    there is a good reason for there to be a healer to be there to keep
    characters alive and not have to expeiance a horrible death pelnalty.

  • CowinspaceCowinspace Member Posts: 671
    Whilst there should be some form of DP it cannot be harsh, not in a game that is meant to encourage PvP.

    As with Item Drop DP actually stops the average gamer from indulging in PvP. Even worse for the way the RvR is arranged in WAR if there is even a moderatly heavy DP people WILL NOT defend cities being sieged if they have lower numbers. This will lead to Ganking becoming normal, people only killing what they outnumber/overpower and running from whatever outnumbers/overpowers them.


    image

  • LumsterLumster Member Posts: 230

    Actually yes you can with simple PvP BUT not with RvR. Mythic wants huge battles and intense fights but they also want you to think before you attack. I think they did it right, not too soft (like WoW) and not too hard (like UO).

    RvR needs life, not people grinding for gear and XP.

  • NeonShadowNeonShadow Member UncommonPosts: 326
    Why the hell do you want death penalties in a game about war? In war people die. They dont just die every now and then, they die often. If I die often I'll have a death penalty often. If the death penalty is severe it might mean that I'll be spending most of my time doing something stupid (waiting for the attribute loss to diminish, collecting new items etc.) instead of PvPing. The only loss we need in WAR is the loss of a zone, strategic point or a castle/fort whatever.
  • sly220sly220 Member UncommonPosts: 607

    Hell yea down with the death penalties there Dumb...

    situation BIG WAR: Problem death penatlies

    Lets see i can join this great battle and spend the next 4 days getting back the xp i lost or i can just continue lvling and gain a few without lossing everything i have hmm tough choose

    image

  • VegettaVegetta Member Posts: 438

    IF there is no death penalty then you may as well be playing a FPS IMO. I dont think to penalty should be overly severe but death should have a bit of a sting to it....

    Looting corpses is going to give me UO flashbacks ::::18::

    image

  • bigoberlybigoberly Member Posts: 14


    Originally posted by Vegetta

    IF there is no death penalty then you may as well be playing a FPS IMO. I dont think to penalty should be overly severe but death should have a bit of a sting to it....
    Looting corpses is going to give me UO flashbacks ::::18::


             The death penalty should be no more then it is in DAOC. they have said that you loot corpses in a way but the stuff you get is not thers it is a loot table like looting an NPC. anyway how can an orc were dworf armor.
  • Distortion0Distortion0 Member Posts: 668
    You have to assume automaticaly, that since it's WAR, about half of the people involved are going to die or run away. Giving a whole army a death penilty will cause imbalence in RvR. I'd rather a temporary reward for not dying.
  • karat76karat76 Member UncommonPosts: 1,000
    I am playing WoW now but miss the glory days of DAoC. Hopefully this time mythic prevents botters.

  • MuraisMurais Member UncommonPosts: 1,118
       I'd like to see a death debuff, like "Chill of Death" which will make you take 30% more damage than usual, and/or make you more vulnerable to spells (both good and bad) and make it last for say, 5 minutes.

  • WellkieWellkie Member Posts: 25

    I thought when WOW and no DP came out great....but after playing a while the game lost something I was use to in other games

    THE WELL TO LIVE

    in WOW you do not care if you die...so what big deal...going to cost me 45 seconds and few coins

    in EVE and EQ death ment some thing

    in EVE the lost of millions plus even your entire toon if you did not get a clone plus up to years of skill training if you did not keep the clone skill level cap up( only had to buy a clone with a higher skill cap) but you be surpise how many did not keep the clone up unless they where at war with someone

    in EQ death ..you had to get your stuff back first of all...big pain..lost huge exp (could get some back with raise) but you could end up losing hours of game time just to get back where you were before the death. Then there were people who die 3 to 4 times gettting their corpse back that had their stuff on it...even more lost of time.

    Death should mean something. It adds risk to the game and there by adds more joy to the game for getting something done.

     PVP should not equal lost of exp...way to many gankers on online games for that

  • FreddyNoNoseFreddyNoNose Member Posts: 1,558


    Originally posted by Distortion0
    You have to assume automaticaly, that since it's WAR, about half of the people involved are going to die or run away. Giving a whole army a death penilty will cause imbalence in RvR. I'd rather a temporary reward for not dying.

    I think this is dead on.  But why the need to punish the other person.
  • FreddyNoNoseFreddyNoNose Member Posts: 1,558


    Originally posted by VideoXPG
    I was thinking just now about some faults some games have with the idea of that players just don't care if they die, due to very light death penalties a certain game gives off. Last thing I want to happen to WAR is that we have such a great game but all of a sudden, people just don't care if they die if a random fight. This has happened to me one too many times in WoW where no one really cares what happens.

    I'm not asking for a deduction in experience points, but something that will give people an incentive to stay alive. Especially if I plan on being a healing class to help keep the party moving, I want an incentive for other players to keep an eye on me so I don't become target number 1 for the opposing party, eventually leading to the defeat of the entire party. Right now from the videos I have seen there doesn't seem to be much of a penalty but the videos don't really tell much to begin with.

    Anyone have any information?


    Let me ask you a serious question.  Say you have a great one on one fight with someone.  Finally you kill him.  Do you get more or less enjoyment in the fight because he gets some extra penaly like losing property or experince or this something else you want?  Would a great fight be ruined if you didn't get to put post fight hurt on him?

    Also, would you prefer pvp with full player looting?

  • MraughhMraughh Member Posts: 23
    The pvp penalty should be warped out of the zone to the nearest friendly controlled area.
    That way, you get to fight, don't have to worry about working off a death penalty, yet will still affect the battle because for everyone getting killed off, lets the other side have the numerical advantage. It forces you to play smart rather than kamikaze.


  • xfaqtarxfaqtar Member UncommonPosts: 3

    I have read exactly 3 posts in these forums and 2 things are obvious:

    1.) Those who have never played a game above the mediocrity and mass appeal build of WoW (which I actively play), or even have only played WoW

    2.) Those who have never played a quality Mythic product, most recognizeably DAoC which won numerous accolades for it's gameplay and systems and was only missing the lore and polish of a history like Warhammer.

    Those who get it, will play WAR, those who don't will continue to play the watered down mass appeals and/or the gankers delights.

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