Originally posted by poopypants Originally posted by sempiternal A "sandbox" game is basically a virtual reality, a world where there are very few restrictions on what a player can or cannot do. Community is most important in these games, because the players create the world.
No a "sandbox" game is not in any way Virtual Reality...Virtual Reality is a whole other field of endeavor.
In regards to MMO's, the sandbox architecture is the closest to virtual reality than any other architecture. Personally, I'm sick of the mainstream and how they're trying to mold it to a specific style of gaming. They think classes, spells, dragons, and levels are synonomous with MMOs, yet they are the very elements that are holding MMOs back from their full potential, and that is the sandbox/virtual reality concept.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by srohek Here's the true definition:
A sandbox-style videogame is a video game with an open-ended and non-linear style of gameplay. The sandbox analogy is used to describe this style of gaming because, as with a physical sa ndbox, the user is simply allowed to do what he or she wishes (with the available game elements and within the limitations of the game engine - the metaphoric toys within, and bounds of, the sandbox). This free-form experimentation is either an end unto itself - in contrast to competing models of gaming - or is a variant modality that has no effect on more traditional or usual play of the same game, such as scores, game level advancement milestones, player rankings etc. Just as a real-world sandbox can be smoothed out and resculpted again and again, so the sandbox game or game mode can be played and explored repeatedly without a linear "plot" or a particular set of expectations, nor any lasting game-play consequences.
A sandbox MMO is simply an MMO with no classes, restrictions, and hard-coded boundaries. This creates player-driven content, such as player-run economy, politics, and open PvP.
IE. Everything you find in any other MMO minus most of the programming.
Commonly found in cheap, failed, genre monopolised or dinosaur MMO's from prehistory.
Disagreed. Most MMOs are linear and shallow; hardly worth playing. The less restrictions, the more depth and player-driven content there is, and in the long-run superior gameplay.
I could log on and hunt for animal hides to sell to crafters I could log on and look for animals to tame I could log on and explore Points of interest and get badges I could log on and Run bounty missions I could log on and join my PA in hunting Krayts I could log on and Hunt Rebels I could log on and hunt Jedi (when they were added) I could log on and explore space and fight in space
There was just soo much to do where as in EQ2 (the game i play now)
I could log on and level I could log on and try to get gear
SWG was NOT a sandbox MMOG...it just had a hell of a lot of content in it. Which is what I call freedom! In MMOGs that have a shit load of content I'm free to do many different things...just like you noteed above. In a "sandbox" MMOG I don't have those options.
So no content (sandbox)= less freedom of action!
Homeless people have no content in their lives...yeah, they're free to do almost anything they want, but...
Now, to answer your questions:
"So why are you posting here?" 'cause I felt like it! And that trumps everything (and answers your second question)!
"are you that "self important" you need to throw your opinions where they are not wanted?" Yes, I am and I really don't care what you want or don't want! You got that!
SWG was NOT a sandbox MMOG...it just had a hell of a lot of content in it. Which is what I call freedom! In MMOGs that have a shit load of content I'm free to do many different things...just like you noteed above. In a "sandbox" MMOG I don't have those options.
In your opnion. SWG in mine was a sandbox style game. The player crafter economy, multi playstyles including non combat, and skill tree system instead of cookie cutter classes and levels all made it that way for me. I don't buy into the lack of content in a sandbox MMO though, it's just that the content should come as new game systems not quests, like space flight in SWG or a bounty hunter system or the smuggler system that never arrived before they changed it into an adventure quest level MMO.
Originally posted by srohek Originally posted by poopypants Originally posted by sempiternal A "sandbox" game is basically a virtual reality, a world where there are very few restrictions on what a player can or cannot do. Community is most important in these games, because the players create the world.
No a "sandbox" game is not in any way Virtual Reality...Virtual Reality is a whole other field of endeavor.
In regards to MMO's, the sandbox architecture is the closest to virtual reality than any other architecture. Personally, I'm sick of the mainstream and how they're trying to mold it to a specific style of gaming. They think classes, spells, dragons, and levels are synonomous with MMOs, yet they are the very elements that are holding MMOs back from their full potential, and that is the sandbox/virtual reality concept.
I love it when you EVEbois throw around words like architecture...lol.
Virtual Reality has absolutely nothing to do with the specific content of the application, sandbox or otherwise. VR is use by nearly every company that produces physical products...even oil companies use it to search for oil!
Now, I'm right there with you concerning the mainstream of the genre! It sickens me when I think about how much better MMOGs could actually be...it's heart-breaking to see this beautiful concept sullied and held back by greedy corporations, ass-lickin' developers and mentally retarded gamers.
Originally posted by poopypants Originally posted by srohek Originally posted by poopypants Originally posted by sempiternal A "sandbox" game is basically a virtual reality, a world where there are very few restrictions on what a player can or cannot do. Community is most important in these games, because the players create the world.
No a "sandbox" game is not in any way Virtual Reality...Virtual Reality is a whole other field of endeavor.
In regards to MMO's, the sandbox architecture is the closest to virtual reality than any other architecture. Personally, I'm sick of the mainstream and how they're trying to mold it to a specific style of gaming. They think classes, spells, dragons, and levels are synonomous with MMOs, yet they are the very elements that are holding MMOs back from their full potential, and that is the sandbox/virtual reality concept.
I love it when you EVEbois throw around words like architecture...lol.
Virtual Reality has absolutely nothing to do with the specific content of the application, sandbox or otherwise. VR is use by nearly every company that produces physical products...even oil companies use it to search for oil!
Now, I'm right there with you concerning the mainstream of the genre! It sickens me when I think about how much better MMOGs could actually be...it's heart-breaking to see this beautiful concept sullied and held back by greedy corporations, ass-lickin' developers and mentally retarded gamers.
So are you just picking a fight with the eve guys? SWG was a sandbox MMO as well as UO, both games had more than enough content in them, you were able to make a living in the game without having to have an achiever playstyle, Explorers, killers and socializers all found a home in those games as well. Sandbox MMo's are something I would like to see a lot more of.
I'd like to know what games specifically you're drawing your definition from, becuase it sounds like you pick all the sucky games.
So are you just picking a fight with the eve guys? SWG was a sandbox MMO as well as UO, both games had more than enough content in them, you were able to make a living in the game without having to have an achiever playstyle, Explorers, killers and socializers all found a home in those games as well. Sandbox MMo's are something I would like to see a lot more of.
I'd like to know what games specifically you're drawing your definition from, becuase it sounds like you pick all the sucky games.
Everbody says EVE Online is a sandbox game...But you and a couple other people are saying that SWG and UO are sandbox games; these games are oceans apart! So which is it?
Although I may be a strong supporter of the sandbox architecture, I'm not a fan of EVE at all. It has it's good points, such as the complexity of customization, however the game is just flat out boring.
Yeah, I don't really play Eve, but I do reconize that it is a sandbox MMO becuase of it's freeform nature. If you do a little research into the community of EVE you will see how unique it has become. It's a simulation of unbridled capitalism in the stars, Just the fact that someone can make a living in game by scamming mega corporations , pirating, freelance trading, or participating in the giant sized corporations that have ammased int he game is astounding.
I think the definitive feature of a sandbox game is that it is completely freeform in nature, and doesn't have many restrictions ie: UO, SWG, The elder scroll series(Morrowind, Oblivion), EVE online, even the GTA series, the sims; just to name a few.
The reason that so many people love these games is becuase their characters are unique and their own. I think Will Wright said it best when he said that Player created stories are always way more powerful than developer scripted stories."
I think that is one of hte main reasons that people like me look back at UO with such fondness, becuase everyday my character would be off creating a story for himself, whether I ran into two "red" characters on the road outside of town and got away by paralyzing one and outrunning the other. Or if I was tending to the potted plants inside my house. I jsut always felt a lot better when I was creating the story for myself, And the open endedness of sandbox games suits my playstyle.
Originally posted by srohek Although I may be a strong supporter of the sandbox architecture, I'm not a fan of EVE at all. It has it's good points, such as the complexity of customization, however the game is just flat out boring.
OK...I'm sorry for calling you an EVEboi.
But if EVE, with it's lack of developer created content, is a sandbox game like every EVEboi says it is, then where does SWG and UO fit in to the picture?
Somebody don't know WTF they're talking about...
Let's put aside the fact that SWG, UO, Anarchy Online, etc., have linear advancement schemes, classes, etc....
Which is it? Is it massive content = sandbox or no content = sandbox?
Whoever says "sandobx = no content" is wrong imho.
In a sandbox oriented game, coders put the effort in developing "tools" to let the players create the content. This way you have complex crafting, entertaining, alliance/guild, housing, harvesting, pets etc. systems that allow you to just create the environment in where you play. This doesen't mean that a sandbox game doesen't have any linear quest as almost every other mmo out there, it's just that the orientation the devs gave is different and the effort put into those quest is less than in other games.
Games like SWG (the original vision), Saga of Ryzom, EvE Online, etc are games with such complex tools to develop content (btw it's open ended) and, marginally, quests around the world. Those games are "sandboxy" if you like...they tend to that game concept more than others.
It will be nice if the two world just merge (hard to do but who knows) ... anyway the "succes" formula right now seems to be linear, repetitive quest based games.
The thing is, you don't get it. It doesn't have to do with how much content a game has. It has to do witht eh open endness of the gameplay.
I should have corrected myself, SWG isn't much of a sandbox mmo anymore, though you can do certain things that are open ended still. SWG does have classes. I was talkign about Pre-NGE where you didn't have classes but skills.
Uo doesn't have classes, it only has open ended skill advancement.
Eve is a sandbox style game with little content
SWG and UO are sandbox games with lots of content.
It doesn't have to do with how much content is in a game at all. It's a gameplay style and attitude.
I think a game is a sandbox if the GMs don't ban you for doing something no one has done before.
For example, I think it is safe to say that any game that bans a character for playing bingo or gambling is probably not a sandbox. However, some people are irrepressible in their desire to inject new content wherever they can, even if many avenues are closed off. They may just make more intra-guild content or OOG stuff which the GMs can't touch.
Real life is a sandbox, yet it sometimes has rules. I suppose if you give the participates limited means to enforce their conceptions of orthodoxy in their immediate sphere then that could be a sandbox too.
I prefer a game that lets me totally obliterate an enemy and all their progress in the game since day one, even if I do it with original and even devious means or in what becomes unfair circumstances. My preferences are irrelevant though, since a sandbox is what you make of it.
Originally posted by Lokimer The thing is, you don't get it. It doesn't have to do with how much content a game has. It has to do witht eh open endness of the gameplay. I should have corrected myself, SWG isn't much of a sandbox mmo anymore, though you can do certain things that are open ended still. SWG does have classes. I was talkign about Pre-NGE where you didn't have classes but skills. Uo doesn't have classes, it only has open ended skill advancement.
Eve is a sandbox style game with little content SWG and UO are sandbox games with lots of content. It doesn't have to do with how much content is in a game at all. It's a gameplay style and attitude.
Hehe, I never even heard the term 'sandbox game' until it was used to discribe EVE Online and I've been playing online games since the mid 90's!
According to the highly dubious Wikipedia the Fallout series are sandbox games...these are not open-ended games, rather, they are highly linear win-the-game type games.
But the untrustworthy Wikipedia does offer the following as common features of sandbox games:
Never-ending gameplay
Freedom to experiment (it says without consequences)
Non-linear or nonexistent plot
So basically if a game has no particular goal to strive towards and achieve, no consequences for screwing up (no risk), and no plot it's a sandbox game. Sounds like fun.
The easiest way to define a Sandbox game is one in which there is no defined end goal. A good example of a Sandbox game would be the Simcity series. While the goal is to build a city. How large, Organized, polluted and safe is up to the player not the game designer.
Originally posted by poopypants According to the highly dubious Wikipedia the Fallout series are sandbox games...these are not open-ended games, rather, they are highly linear win-the-game type games. well, i dont know what Fallout game you played, but mine wasnt linear at all, and had quite a lot different endings. you were not forced to be good or bad. you could choose. the game gave you many options. although i wouldnt call it a sandbox game, i would say that for a single player rpg it is very open ended and offers a great freedom.
But the untrustworthy Wikipedia does offer the following as common features of sandbox games:
Never-ending gameplay
Freedom to experiment (it says without consequences)
Non-linear or nonexistent plot
So basically if a game has no particular goal to strive towards and achieve, no consequences for screwing up (no risk), and no plot it's a sandbox game. Sounds like fun. how did you get to the conclusion that sandbox game have no consequences for screwing up (no risk)? look at simcity, one of the first sandbox computer games. you could explore and experiment all you wanted, but of course, if you did something that your citizens didnt approve, they would let you know by leaving the city.
Disagreed. Most MMOs are linear and shallow; hardly worth playing. The less restrictions, the more depth and player-driven content there is, and in the long-run superior gameplay.
I don't mind player driven content, but I object to paying a programmer for it.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by srohek
Disagreed. Most MMOs are linear and shallow; hardly worth playing. The less restrictions, the more depth and player-driven content there is, and in the long-run superior gameplay.
I don't mind player driven content, but I object to paying a programmer for it.
Do no work, earn no pay. That's my philosophy.
that is like saying you dont read books, only comics, cause you are not going to use your own imagination to create the world and characters. you are paying the author, lest he can do is make the pictures for you so that you dont have to use your own resources, right?
Originally posted by Distiler Whoever says "sandobx = no content" is wrong imho.
In a sandbox oriented game, coders put the effort in developing "tools" to let the players create the content. This way you have complex crafting, entertaining, alliance/guild, housing, harvesting, pets etc. systems that allow you to just create the environment in where you play. This doesen't mean that a sandbox game doesen't have any linear quest as almost every other mmo out there, it's just that the orientation the devs gave is different and the effort put into those quest is less than in other games.
Games like SWG (the original vision), Saga of Ryzom, EvE Online, etc are games with such complex tools to develop content (btw it's open ended) and, marginally, quests around the world. Those games are "sandboxy" if you like...they tend to that game concept more than others.
It will be nice if the two world just merge (hard to do but who knows) ... anyway the "succes" formula right now seems to be linear, repetitive quest based games.
A decent MMO has both the tools and the content created by those tools. Developers who just provide the tools are nothing less than lazy rip off merchants. No workee no eatee. Sod off and freeload elsewhere.
I haven't played SWG or Saga of Ryzom, but I have played Eve, they couldn't even be bothered to do a decent tutorial, the game is just content lite. If it wasn't one of the only multiplayer Space Opera's available, no one would play it.
Eve can afford to have weaker gameplay because it has no direct competiton. Fantasy MMO's do not have that luxury. They have had to evolve and evolve fast. Constantly adding new features and content to stave off the competition.
that is like saying you dont read books, only comics, cause you are not going to use your own imagination to create the world and characters. you are paying the author, lest he can do is make the pictures for you so that you dont have to use your own resources, right?
That's like saying I don't pay graphic novel prices for a painting by numbers book. I can use my imagination in both, but I'm not paying anyone to use my imagination. I can do that for free.
A blank excerise book or an interactive storybook for the same price. Both are good, one is worth the money.
In the end a quality product has to have a level of content. A book with 3 pages telling you how to write your own novel is not worth as much as a 1,000 page novel. Especially when that 1,000 page novel includes those same 3 pages it was inspired by anyway.
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by ssstupido
that is like saying you dont read books, only comics, cause you are not going to use your own imagination to create the world and characters. you are paying the author, lest he can do is make the pictures for you so that you dont have to use your own resources, right?
That's like saying I don't pay graphic novel prices for a painting by numbers book. I can use my imagination in both, but I'm not paying anyone to use my imagination. I can do that for free.
A blank excerise book or an interactive storybook for the same price. Both are good, one is worth the money.
In the end a quality product has to have a level of content. A book with 3 pages telling you how to write your own novel is not worth as much as a 1,000 page novel. Especially when that 1,000 page novel includes those same 3 pages it was inspired by anyway.
Baff, your argument is very valid in that you shouldn't pay graphic novel prices for a painting by numbers book. But what you're doing is using Eve online as the basis for every sandbox game out there. That is what it seems to me. We have cited many other examples of great sandbox games ie :pre NGE SWG, UO, The sims series, The elder scroll series.) would you pay for any of these games? have you played and enjoyed any of the other games cited? did they seriously lack content like EVE online?
even better, could baff or any other define "content"? is it missions? is it many levels and classes? is it lore? is it pvp? is it raiding? politics? a working economy? beautiful graphics? spoken dialogs? player housing? moral system?
so, what is content? all the above or just quests and raids?
Comments
In regards to MMO's, the sandbox architecture is the closest to virtual reality than any other architecture. Personally, I'm sick of the mainstream and how they're trying to mold it to a specific style of gaming. They think classes, spells, dragons, and levels are synonomous with MMOs, yet they are the very elements that are holding MMOs back from their full potential, and that is the sandbox/virtual reality concept.
IE. Everything you find in any other MMO minus most of the programming.
Commonly found in cheap, failed, genre monopolised or dinosaur MMO's from prehistory.
Disagreed. Most MMOs are linear and shallow; hardly worth playing. The less restrictions, the more depth and player-driven content there is, and in the long-run superior gameplay.
I could log on and hunt for animal hides to sell to crafters
I could log on and look for animals to tame
I could log on and explore Points of interest and get badges
I could log on and Run bounty missions
I could log on and join my PA in hunting Krayts
I could log on and Hunt Rebels
I could log on and hunt Jedi (when they were added)
I could log on and explore space and fight in space
There was just soo much to do where as in EQ2 (the game i play now)
I could log on and level
I could log on and try to get gear
SWG was NOT a sandbox MMOG...it just had a hell of a lot of content in it. Which is what I call freedom! In MMOGs that have a shit load of content I'm free to do many different things...just like you noteed above. In a "sandbox" MMOG I don't have those options.
So no content (sandbox)= less freedom of action!
Homeless people have no content in their lives...yeah, they're free to do almost anything they want, but...
Now, to answer your questions:
"So why are you posting here?" 'cause I felt like it! And that trumps everything (and answers your second question)!
"are you that "self important" you need to throw your opinions where they are not wanted?" Yes, I am and I really don't care what you want or don't want! You got that!
My Cyberstalkin' bone is startin' to itch...
In regards to MMO's, the sandbox architecture is the closest to virtual reality than any other architecture. Personally, I'm sick of the mainstream and how they're trying to mold it to a specific style of gaming. They think classes, spells, dragons, and levels are synonomous with MMOs, yet they are the very elements that are holding MMOs back from their full potential, and that is the sandbox/virtual reality concept.
I love it when you EVEbois throw around words like architecture...lol.
Virtual Reality has absolutely nothing to do with the specific content of the application, sandbox or otherwise. VR is use by nearly every company that produces physical products...even oil companies use it to search for oil!
Now, I'm right there with you concerning the mainstream of the genre! It sickens me when I think about how much better MMOGs could actually be...it's heart-breaking to see this beautiful concept sullied and held back by greedy corporations, ass-lickin' developers and mentally retarded gamers.
In regards to MMO's, the sandbox architecture is the closest to virtual reality than any other architecture. Personally, I'm sick of the mainstream and how they're trying to mold it to a specific style of gaming. They think classes, spells, dragons, and levels are synonomous with MMOs, yet they are the very elements that are holding MMOs back from their full potential, and that is the sandbox/virtual reality concept.
I love it when you EVEbois throw around words like architecture...lol.
Virtual Reality has absolutely nothing to do with the specific content of the application, sandbox or otherwise. VR is use by nearly every company that produces physical products...even oil companies use it to search for oil!
Now, I'm right there with you concerning the mainstream of the genre! It sickens me when I think about how much better MMOGs could actually be...it's heart-breaking to see this beautiful concept sullied and held back by greedy corporations, ass-lickin' developers and mentally retarded gamers.
So are you just picking a fight with the eve guys? SWG was a sandbox MMO as well as UO, both games had more than enough content in them, you were able to make a living in the game without having to have an achiever playstyle, Explorers, killers and socializers all found a home in those games as well. Sandbox MMo's are something I would like to see a lot more of.
I'd like to know what games specifically you're drawing your definition from, becuase it sounds like you pick all the sucky games.
So are you just picking a fight with the eve guys? SWG was a sandbox MMO as well as UO, both games had more than enough content in them, you were able to make a living in the game without having to have an achiever playstyle, Explorers, killers and socializers all found a home in those games as well. Sandbox MMo's are something I would like to see a lot more of.
I'd like to know what games specifically you're drawing your definition from, becuase it sounds like you pick all the sucky games.
Everbody says EVE Online is a sandbox game...But you and a couple other people are saying that SWG and UO are sandbox games; these games are oceans apart! So which is it?
Yeah, I don't really play Eve, but I do reconize that it is a sandbox MMO becuase of it's freeform nature. If you do a little research into the community of EVE you will see how unique it has become. It's a simulation of unbridled capitalism in the stars, Just the fact that someone can make a living in game by scamming mega corporations , pirating, freelance trading, or participating in the giant sized corporations that have ammased int he game is astounding.
I think the definitive feature of a sandbox game is that it is completely freeform in nature, and doesn't have many restrictions ie: UO, SWG, The elder scroll series(Morrowind, Oblivion), EVE online, even the GTA series, the sims; just to name a few.
The reason that so many people love these games is becuase their characters are unique and their own.
I think Will Wright said it best when he said that Player created stories are always way more powerful than developer scripted stories."
I think that is one of hte main reasons that people like me look back at UO with such fondness, becuase everyday my character would be off creating a story for himself, whether I ran into two "red" characters on the road outside of town and got away by paralyzing one and outrunning the other. Or if I was tending to the potted plants inside my house. I jsut always felt a lot better when I was creating the story for myself, And the open endedness of sandbox games suits my playstyle.
But if EVE, with it's lack of developer created content, is a sandbox game like every EVEboi says it is, then where does SWG and UO fit in to the picture?
Somebody don't know WTF they're talking about...
Let's put aside the fact that SWG, UO, Anarchy Online, etc., have linear advancement schemes, classes, etc....
Which is it? Is it massive content = sandbox or no content = sandbox?
Whoever says "sandobx = no content" is wrong imho.
In a sandbox oriented game, coders put the effort in developing "tools" to let the players create the content. This way you have complex crafting, entertaining, alliance/guild, housing, harvesting, pets etc. systems that allow you to just create the environment in where you play. This doesen't mean that a sandbox game doesen't have any linear quest as almost every other mmo out there, it's just that the orientation the devs gave is different and the effort put into those quest is less than in other games.
Games like SWG (the original vision), Saga of Ryzom, EvE Online, etc are games with such complex tools to develop content (btw it's open ended) and, marginally, quests around the world. Those games are "sandboxy" if you like...they tend to that game concept more than others.
It will be nice if the two world just merge (hard to do but who knows) ... anyway the "succes" formula right now seems to be linear, repetitive quest based games.
The thing is, you don't get it. It doesn't have to do with how much content a game has. It has to do witht eh open endness of the gameplay.
I should have corrected myself, SWG isn't much of a sandbox mmo anymore, though you can do certain things that are open ended still. SWG does have classes. I was talkign about Pre-NGE where you didn't have classes but skills.
Uo doesn't have classes, it only has open ended skill advancement.
Eve is a sandbox style game with little content
SWG and UO are sandbox games with lots of content.
It doesn't have to do with how much content is in a game at all. It's a gameplay style and attitude.
For example, I think it is safe to say that any game that bans a character for playing bingo or gambling is probably not a sandbox. However, some people are irrepressible in their desire to inject new content wherever they can, even if many avenues are closed off. They may just make more intra-guild content or OOG stuff which the GMs can't touch.
Real life is a sandbox, yet it sometimes has rules. I suppose if you
give the participates limited means to enforce their conceptions of
orthodoxy in their immediate sphere then that could be a sandbox too.
I prefer a game that lets me totally obliterate an enemy and all their progress in the game since day one, even if I do it with original and even devious means or in what becomes unfair circumstances. My preferences are irrelevant though, since a sandbox is what you make of it.
According to the highly dubious Wikipedia the Fallout series are sandbox games...these are not open-ended games, rather, they are highly linear win-the-game type games.
But the untrustworthy Wikipedia does offer the following as common features of sandbox games:
Never-ending gameplay
Freedom to experiment (it says without consequences)
Non-linear or nonexistent plot
So basically if a game has no particular goal to strive towards and achieve, no consequences for screwing up (no risk), and no plot it's a sandbox game. Sounds like fun.
I don't mind player driven content, but I object to paying a programmer for it.
Do no work, earn no pay. That's my philosophy.
I don't mind player driven content, but I object to paying a programmer for it.
Do no work, earn no pay. That's my philosophy.
that is like saying you dont read books, only comics, cause you are not going to use your own imagination to create the world and characters. you are paying the author, lest he can do is make the pictures for you so that you dont have to use your own resources, right?
A decent MMO has both the tools and the content created by those tools. Developers who just provide the tools are nothing less than lazy rip off merchants. No workee no eatee. Sod off and freeload elsewhere.
I haven't played SWG or Saga of Ryzom, but I have played Eve, they couldn't even be bothered to do a decent tutorial, the game is just content lite. If it wasn't one of the only multiplayer Space Opera's available, no one would play it.
Eve can afford to have weaker gameplay because it has no direct competiton. Fantasy MMO's do not have that luxury. They have had to evolve and evolve fast. Constantly adding new features and content to stave off the competition.
That's like saying I don't pay graphic novel prices for a painting by numbers book. I can use my imagination in both, but I'm not paying anyone to use my imagination. I can do that for free.
A blank excerise book or an interactive storybook for the same price. Both are good, one is worth the money.
In the end a quality product has to have a level of content. A book with 3 pages telling you how to write your own novel is not worth as much as a 1,000 page novel. Especially when that 1,000 page novel includes those same 3 pages it was inspired by anyway.
That's like saying I don't pay graphic novel prices for a painting by numbers book. I can use my imagination in both, but I'm not paying anyone to use my imagination. I can do that for free.
A blank excerise book or an interactive storybook for the same price. Both are good, one is worth the money.
In the end a quality product has to have a level of content. A book with 3 pages telling you how to write your own novel is not worth as much as a 1,000 page novel. Especially when that 1,000 page novel includes those same 3 pages it was inspired by anyway.
Baff, your argument is very valid in that you shouldn't pay graphic novel prices for a painting by numbers book. But what you're doing is using Eve online as the basis for every sandbox game out there. That is what it seems to me. We have cited many other examples of great sandbox games ie :pre NGE SWG, UO, The sims series, The elder scroll series.) would you pay for any of these games? have you played and enjoyed any of the other games cited? did they seriously lack content like EVE online?
even better, could baff or any other define "content"? is it missions? is it many levels and classes? is it lore? is it pvp? is it raiding? politics? a working economy? beautiful graphics? spoken dialogs? player housing? moral system?
so, what is content? all the above or just quests and raids?