Originally posted by Nicoli As for NPC dialog adding to a MMO, I'll pull this timely classic out, Its a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER GAME, if you spending most of your time talking to NPCs I'd suggest saving alot of money and playing Diablo or Dungeon Seige.
Also in most sandbox games the underlining base program is far more complicated then in a Normal game. The reason for this is that sandbox games must have more options and tools for you to manipulate the enviroment,
For example WoW, is a "normal" style game, They don't have to worry about city control, construction, Factional warfare, odd ball combinations of X, Non game effecting goods economy, and numerous other factors.
Now EVE devs have to deal with all of that, They have to worry about the Titan with Mining laser uber combination or what ever else, They have to worry about creating allowing players to Permantly controling areas of the enviroment(though perrmanent is only till someone else decides to boot them), Alliances fighting, and a thousand things I'm sure I'm missing.
When it comes down to it a Sandbox style game is a much more complicated then a Scripted game as it is mostly just a set of Flags such as ( if player enters area X, play sound file Y, and run movement script Z.) It looks Complicated but in the end its very easy to program, I use to do these style mini maze games using basic. where as you entered rooms it would access a sound file and perhaps a animation file.
So while in a normal game you pay for the devs making the Scripts in a sandbox game your paying for a dev to make all the equations and tools that allow a truely dynamic game. note it is possible from a programming standpoint to make a Normal game look programmed but it tends to show through when you start to look deeply into it.
NPC's in RPg games such as Diablo were good, moslty I played Diablo multiplayer. If I like the NPC's scripts my friends playing with me might enjoy them too. An RPG game has a certain formula that players want.
You can siongle out any other feature you like too. If one game doesn't bother with it and another makes the effort for the same price, it's an easy decision. What does Eve actually bother with? The economy. That's about it. Everytrhing else is par or sub par. It's a great game good concept some nice features, but ultimately nothing like as many of them as it'scontemporaies. If it was a fantasy game it would have failed.
All MMO's are sandbox. Wow is infinitely more complex than Eve's programming and it's economy and the economy tools are the most advanced in any MMO yet. Including Eve. The only thing on your list that WoW doesn't also do is construction/housing. But then it does a lot of other stuff besides.
Eve is content lite. Wow is the content boss. Both are sandbox.
No offense but creating and balancing PvP is a vastly shorter programming process than creating and balancing PvE. There really is no comparison, it's not in the same league. Player Vs Player interaction is quick to produce and simple to bug fix. (Comparatively).
If I was programming a game that featured both elements, the bulk of my time would be spent on the PVE and that element would be made before any PvP was added. You might notice that all developments follow this formula.
PvE content is harder to progam, not just for the triggers but also the AI, the CPU stress and scaleability. most of the same problems found in PvP coding are still there as other players are still involved. The game balancing not only requires every combination of playertype as it does in PvP but also every combination of player type vs every combination of monster type. The permutations of this element alone are monumentally higher than any simple PvP equation.
Simple maze game WoW is not. It is the highest tech MMO on the market. It may not be your particular flavour or style of game, but the programming skill and content is above and beyond anything else out there. no contenders. I look forward to seeing the next generation after WoW too. With each major generation jump the level of coding and functionality greatly improves. I'm a fan of technology.
Originally posted by ssstupido if you care so much about content and your money, why dont you just stick to single player games? they are 100% content and way cheaper than any MMORPG. why pay 15$ every month to play WoW or EQ2 if you can pay 40$ once and play Oblivion forever? or even better, pay 5$ and play Baldurs Gate 2, lots of content there for almost zero money. And BG2 even comes with 2 expansions
Didn't enjoy Bladders Gate.
I play both Multiplayer and single player games. No need for either or, I can do both.
Oblivion I've effecticvely finished, same for WoW. Wow was much much bigger than Oblivion It took me hundred more hours to explore that one it was worth the extra. (Remember that content is not just extra maps and single player dungeons but also gameplay features like head to head and co-op, trading chatting and all the rest). They might add a few more minutes of gameplay here and there but I can find newer thrills faster elsewhere. Neither of them had especially inspired gameplay for my preference. I'm not a big fantasy head. It doesn't addict me.
I'm not planning on playing any game forever. How tedious would that be? So many softwares to see and explore and more being made every day. Why on earth would anyone want to carry on mindlessly repeating the same old routine? Talkabout uninspired. Chess is a great great game, you can play it again and agian throughout your entire life, but dude.....try Counterstrike. Try Halo. Try Wipeout, try WoW try Eve try Battlefield try Tetris try Space Invaders, try Marbles and Football....Cricket and Tennis...
WoW isn't a sandbox game, Not saying in anyway shape or form that its not a good game it's just isn't a sandbox. I will say that WoW has some AMAZING scripts but thats all they are. I've played through at least a good chunck of the quests on both sides of WoW when I played it and Though they look complex they were amazingly scripted with massive sets of flags. in reality in script games like WoW the client does a majority of the work as all the server has to say is execute script X at time start Y, and then the client looks it up in its files, adjusts for times and begins playing out the animation. In fact I once checked through Etherreal, and almost all of the NPC conversations are handled client side when you talk to them. Only things like the accept mission tags and such are sent to the server.
In general You'll find Scripted games heavier on the client side and Sandbox games heavier on the Server Side. this is because of the more complex equations to handle all the different variables that are involved to determine the systems reactions which must be held Server side.
The other thing is that why WoW has alot of methods to get to it, it does have a very defined end-point till blizzard add stuff to raise it. lvl 60, Tier 2 gear(is that the highest now?), Max craft skills, Epic mount, PvP rank gear. Once you hit that point you have the option to start a new character at head towards the same end point again, or contiue to repeat the same quests/raids over and over.
Now that said as a EVE player its not a pure sandbox game but itsas close to it as I've played so far. And its got a huge section of stuff to fill up or at least some more tools for players to amnipulate the enviroment with but I have hope, That and I like the explosions that torpedos make
Originally posted by baff NPC's in RPg games such as Diablo were good, moslty I played Diablo multiplayer. i could have guessed it. All MMO's are sandbox. false Wow is infinitely more complex than Eve's programming and it's economy and the economy tools are the most advanced in any MMO yet. Including Eve. oh my, you are funny Eve is content lite. Wow is the content boss. Both are sandbox. dont you think that joke is overexploted? No offense but creating and balancing PvP is a vastly shorter programming process than creating and balancing PvE. would you mind quoting ANY game develper backing it up? There really is no comparison, it's not in the same league. Player Vs Player interaction is quick to produce and simple to bug fix. (Comparatively). wrong again If I was programming a game that featured both elements, the bulk of my time would be spent on the PVE and that element would be made before any PvP was added. You might notice that all developments follow this formula. yes, that is why we have so many great MMORPGs PvE content is harder to progam you have no idea. Simple maze game WoW is not. It is the highest tech MMO on the market. It may not be your particular flavour or style of game, but the programming skill and content is above and beyond anything else out there. no contenders. I look forward to seeing the next generation after WoW too. With each major generation jump the level of coding and functionality greatly improves. I'm a fan of technology.
i think this is the biggest compilation of erroneus assumptions i've read on the whole summer. good job.
SWG was NOT a sandbox MMOG...it just had a hell of a lot of content in it. Which is what I call freedom! In MMOGs that have a shit load of content I'm free to do many different things...just like you noteed above. In a "sandbox" MMOG I don't have those options.
You're completely misusing the word 'content'. If you were around in the dieing days of SWG, post (and in some ways, pre) CU, people were generally saying "the games shit. it's got great ideas, but it's so bugged, and there's no content". Content and Game-systems (which is what you're misunderstanding as 'content') are completely different. SWG had VERY little 'content'. Sure, you could do some jedi quests. Or maybe go to Kashyyk (shit... I've not played in so long I can't even spell that anymore -_-). Or work on becoming a Pilot Ace. Those are content. Game-systems is what SWG had a lot of, making it the ultimate sandbox mmorpg (imho). The crafting/resource system and economy was absolutely awesome, and a game system. Not content. PvP, another great game element, is a game system. Not content - except on occassion, like when those furry lovable CSRs decided it would be a cool idea to surround Mos Entha with about 2000 elite storm troopers and wait to see what KDS did to stop us farming them. That was painful. Used easily 6 suits of armour dieing then. More importantly, more than a crate of mind poison and disease Ahhhh the good old days... *side tracked, sorry* Melee combat and ranged combat were their own game systems really, and combining them to make templates was the ultimate in PLAYER DRIVEN (ie. NOT content) action. Then there was the whole healing system. A game system. NOT content. Then combat medicine. NOT content. Then architecture. NOT content. Then Jedi. NOT content (until publish 9/10 -_-). Then the looting system. NOT content. Get it? All of those SYSTEMS were things to do, integral to the game. They weren't content. They were game systems. SWG was a sandbox game, and the best ever in concept imho, because of one of the elements that truely made it a sandbox. And that's the ability to take a spade and smooth it all over again. Reclassing. This was the best idea ever (well, the entire profession system was tbh) and made the game fun and interesting and non-repetitive.
What fun is the Sandbox if you only have a tiny bit and get slapped down if you try to get more.
So you get a gang together, but its not longer about what you want to do, its about what your posse wants to do.
If Eve was a Sandbox game, I could fly from one side of the galaxy to the other without someone else imposing what they want to do on me(ie blow me up).
Eve is a Brilliantly open game, probably the most open game.
There won't be a true Sandbox Multiplayer till VR gets really really good.
I mean basically Real Life without any boundries. So if you want to fly off into space and fight <insert target here>, or mine, or produce, or sit in the station and gamble, or have full cyber with some chick (probably a cyberdragqueen) in the station loading bay.
I will admit a MMOG is a true sandbox, when its like the Matrix. Without the dying in real life or nasty programs wondering around.
Also a True Sandbox does not place limits on you, Eve places limits on you from the get go.
Originally posted by Xanrn No Multiplayer Game is Sandbox.
Other players get in your way.
What fun is the Sandbox if you only have a tiny bit and get slapped down if you try to get more.
So you get a gang together, but its not longer about what you want to do, its about what your posse wants to do.
If Eve was a Sandbox game, I could fly from one side of the galaxy to the other without someone else imposing what they want to do on me(ie blow me up).
Eve is a Brilliantly open game, probably the most open game.
There won't be a true Sandbox Multiplayer till VR gets really really good.
I mean basically Real Life without any boundries. So if you want to fly off into space and fight <insert target here>, or mine, or produce, or sit in the station and gamble, or have full cyber with some chick (probably a cyberdragqueen) in the station loading bay.
I will admit a MMOG is a true sandbox, when its like the Matrix. Without the dying in real life or nasty programs wondering around.
Also a True Sandbox does not place limits on you, Eve places limits on you from the get go.
you are confused. a sandbox is not a magic lamp. Simcity was a sandbox game, yet you couldnt do anythin you wanted. you had a limit on your cash. and of course, if you didnt build police stations, crime would eat you, even if you really wanted not to. also, you couldnt build anything on the water, only docks. does it mean that because you couldnt build schools on the sea Simcity was not a sandbox game?
so yes, sandbox games also have limits. on single playuer games, the limits are set by the game. on multiplayer games, you also have to count with players. but they dont limit your gameplay, only affect it. no player can refrain you or forbid you to do whatever you want, although they can make it much more difficult than is should be. that is because for them is also a sandbox game, not only for you.
Originally posted by Xanrn No Multiplayer Game is Sandbox.
Other players get in your way.
What fun is the Sandbox if you only have a tiny bit and get slapped down if you try to get more.
And If I want to play in your section of the sand I'm going to pick you up and chuck you out of it. So as you say big surprise if you don't want to share your section of the sandbox your better be able to back up your claim. Hmm.. surprisingly EVEish. And if I would try to kick you out of my section of the sandbox and we were in the sandbox next to our mothers I'm sure they'd place restrictions on us.
And a sandbox has its bounderies and rules. Starting with the Wood/Plastic/Metal edge keeping all the sand in the box. And Including whether or not you have any water or molds to build stuff. A sandbix game is not a game with out problems to deal with or a complete freedom of progress. Frankly if it was you wouldn't enjoy it much as what would you overcome? Why is building a sand castle fun, because your getting a pile of Sand to stay shaped into something that doesn't fall down due to gravity. Without gravity frankly there would be no challenge in building one and no sense of accomplishment.
And in your sense there will be never be a sandbox MMO, because if there is a restriction to me walking over and killing your character then there is a rule there preventing me from doing something, so I'm now limited. And if I can kill you then I can prevent you from doing something, so now your limited by another player. So the only possible sandbox game in your world will be singleplayer, but then again there your limited to the fact that you can't interact with another human player...
You're all making this too complicated. The way i see it is how is the majority of the content and the advancment provided.
If content comes through quests and designer methods (which includes PVE dungeons etc). Then that is not sandbox. WoW is not sandbox.
If advance is through one method (think Levels etc), then that is not sandbox, so EQ, EQ2,WoW etc are not sandbox.
It's often easier say what sandbox isn't than what is.....
Basically the more freedom in terms of what you can do, in terms of adavncement and content, the more 'sandbox' the game is. SWG was pretty sandbox, but also needed a lot more content.
Originally posted by poopypants You are confused about what a sandbox game is..
A "sandbox" MMOG has no levels or character classes or quests or "Good npcing" whatever that is...lol.
I find it hillarious that people toss this term around with no clue of how it originated. A "Sandbox" MMORPG is an MMORPG that doesn't limit players in any way. You don't get tied to a particular class, you can be anythign you want. Preferably there are no 'levels' just 'skills'. Crafting is typically the primary way of acquiring items (either buying from crafters or making items yourself). There can, and often are, quests and can and often are excellent NPC encounters. Primarilly a "sandbox" is "as close to a real world as you can get while still being a GAME".
EQ2 isn't a sandbox since it locks you into a class, and a level system. You can't ever change it.
Ryzom is nearly a sandbox it doesn't tie you by class but because things are stratified by "level" it limits player interaction.
EVE and UO are true sandboxes because anyone can just jump right in and be fairly useful to any group. SWG was a sandbox as well.
In a sandbox the skills define the character and the world is malleable. Character actions have a definable impact on the game.
EQ2 is a game EVE is a world
WoW is a game UO is a World
SWG:NGE is a Game SWG:Pre-NGE was a World
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by baff Originally posted by Nicoli
NPC's in RPg games such as Diablo were good, moslty I played Diablo multiplayer. If I like the NPC's scripts my friends playing with me might enjoy them too. An RPG game has a certain formula that players want.
Diablo is not an RPG, it's an action game with RPG elements and the dialogue is ok. Actually compared to the quality of dialogue in a game like BG it's shit
You can siongle out any other feature you like too. If one game doesn't bother with it and another makes the effort for the same price, it's an easy decision. What does Eve actually bother with? The economy. That's about it. Everytrhing else is par or sub par. It's a great game good concept some nice features, but ultimately nothing like as many of them as it'scontemporaies. If it was a fantasy game it would have failed.
EVE's whole concept revolves around player interaction. It's arguably the whole purpose of MMO's to begin with. They've built the tools to facilitate that. These tools are NOT simple to program. You seem to be mistaking scripting quests, which is simple with tools, with actual game systems programming, which effects the entire game. Coders do not do scripting, content teams do, you do not need to know how to program to script missions. Game systems DO require coding and you do need to know how to program to do them, they are much more complex.
All MMO's are sandbox. Wow is infinitely more complex than Eve's programming and it's economy and the economy tools are the most advanced in any MMO yet. Including Eve. The only thing on your list that WoW doesn't also do is construction/housing. But then it does a lot of other stuff besides.
Eve is content lite. Wow is the content boss. Both are sandbox.
A sandbox requires that there are no or few restrictions placed on the player. WoW is EXTREMELY restrictive in what you can do. IT IS NOT A SANDBOX! As I stated before, static scripts and restrictive gameplay is NOT complex. Designing dynamic game systems that are balanced with regards to the rest of the game systems is exponentially more difficult to do. WoW's economy is virtually non-existant. You either vendor something or sell it on auction. It's about as simple as you can get. There is no Supply/Demand, no real competition, no player co-operation involved and there rediculous inflation because there are too many money faucets in game and not enough sinks.
No offense but creating and balancing PvP is a vastly shorter programming process than creating and balancing PvE. There really is no comparison, it's not in the same league. Player Vs Player interaction is quick to produce and simple to bug fix. (Comparatively).
Uh....no. Blizzard has been trying to balance the classes for PVP since launch and still hasn't finished. PVE balance is easy when compared to PVP because NPC's attributes can be changed quite easily to fix problems, worst case they can just cheat to make it work. You can do no such thing for PVP balance.
If I was programming a game that featured both elements, the bulk of my time would be spent on the PVE and that element would be made before any PvP was added. You might notice that all developments follow this formula.
And the PVP would suck just like it does in most PVE games that have PVP tacked on later. Games that are designed to be PVP-Centric from the ground up have far better PVP because they are designed that way from the beginning. WoW's PVP sucks, EQ2's is only slightly better as are most other games that added PVP to make up for a lack of quality content and keep people on the treadmill longer.
PvE content is harder to progam, not just for the triggers but also the AI, the CPU stress and scaleability. most of the same problems found in PvP coding are still there as other players are still involved. The game balancing not only requires every combination of playertype as it does in PvP but also every combination of player type vs every combination of monster type. The permutations of this element alone are monumentally higher than any simple PvP equation.
No it's not, it's more time consuming but that's about it, the designers will have a number of preset ai behaviours that they can choose from when placing mobs, they have a brush tool to place the mobs. They then tweak the respawn rate and a few other parameters and then repeat ad nauseum. Not exactly the rocket science of game design IMO. The AI in MMO's is has to be simple because it would put too much load on the servers otherwise. That's why it takes about 3 seconds to figure out how to beat most mobs in MMO's.
Simple maze game WoW is not. It is the highest tech MMO on the market. It may not be your particular flavour or style of game, but the programming skill and content is above and beyond anything else out there. no contenders. I look forward to seeing the next generation after WoW too. With each major generation jump the level of coding and functionality greatly improves. I'm a fan of technology.
There is nothing groundbreaking about WoW or it's coding, it's a shallow, cookie-cutter refinement of games that came before it. It's easy to get into, it's easy to play and it's easy to beat. It has a nice UI and good art style, but otherwise is largely unremarkable.
Being in the MMO industry and looking at all the various approaches to game design, creating a "sandbox" game is way more in depth than creating linear script driven content. I believe this was touched upon in another post in this thread. But when you allow people to place a building in any area they wish... this causes headaches for your engine.
Saying that script driven games take more time to make and show that the devs are not lazy is just crazy.
Player made content is easy for the player to make because the programming that went into it pretty much gave the player Dev powers. But being able to hand off this power to the player is not an easy task. Take a simple SQL database for example. I gaurantee you that there is only 1 or 2 people that are allowed to work on and change this database. Yes users have the ability to use the database, but imagine giving all users admin rights. Then count the amount of seconds it takes to destroy the database.
What gamers often forget is that these games take time. And when creating a scripted environment, Devs know exactly what the player is going to do with object "A". In a sandbox game, gamers have the ability to do multiple if not 30 to 40 things to do with object "A".
Level based systems lend themselves to a very linear gameplay with an end, which is what MMO's were just not meant to do.
Skill based opens up the system to allow pllayers to determine what they enjoy doing.
If you are a Warlock in WoW, and you hate summoning pets... there isn't much you can do about it.
If you are a lumberjack in UO and you get sick of chopping wood... you can pick up a needle and some cloth and start to sew.
You may want to have a look at a mech oriented MMORPG currently being developed titled Force of Arms. I believe the intention is to allow players to terraform a planet. Sounds like the crafting/engineering system will allow for some interesting vehicle designs, etc.
I used to play Face of Mankind, that game was hella tight but I dont have the monety to pay the monthly fees...(Gombies for life!!!!) oh by the way is the GoM leader still Telsist (something like that) or is Cypher back?
Comments
NPC's in RPg games such as Diablo were good, moslty I played Diablo multiplayer. If I like the NPC's scripts my friends playing with me might enjoy them too. An RPG game has a certain formula that players want.
You can siongle out any other feature you like too. If one game doesn't bother with it and another makes the effort for the same price, it's an easy decision. What does Eve actually bother with? The economy. That's about it. Everytrhing else is par or sub par. It's a great game good concept some nice features, but ultimately nothing like as many of them as it'scontemporaies. If it was a fantasy game it would have failed.
All MMO's are sandbox. Wow is infinitely more complex than Eve's programming and it's economy and the economy tools are the most advanced in any MMO yet. Including Eve. The only thing on your list that WoW doesn't also do is construction/housing. But then it does a lot of other stuff besides.
Eve is content lite. Wow is the content boss. Both are sandbox.
No offense but creating and balancing PvP is a vastly shorter programming process than creating and balancing PvE. There really is no comparison, it's not in the same league. Player Vs Player interaction is quick to produce and simple to bug fix. (Comparatively).
If I was programming a game that featured both elements, the bulk of my time would be spent on the PVE and that element would be made before any PvP was added. You might notice that all developments follow this formula.
PvE content is harder to progam, not just for the triggers but also the AI, the CPU stress and scaleability. most of the same problems found in PvP coding are still there as other players are still involved. The game balancing not only requires every combination of playertype as it does in PvP but also every combination of player type vs every combination of monster type. The permutations of this element alone are monumentally higher than any simple PvP equation.
Simple maze game WoW is not. It is the highest tech MMO on the market. It may not be your particular flavour or style of game, but the programming skill and content is above and beyond anything else out there. no contenders. I look forward to seeing the next generation after WoW too. With each major generation jump the level of coding and functionality greatly improves. I'm a fan of technology.
Didn't enjoy Bladders Gate.
I play both Multiplayer and single player games. No need for either or, I can do both.
Oblivion I've effecticvely finished, same for WoW. Wow was much much bigger than Oblivion It took me hundred more hours to explore that one it was worth the extra. (Remember that content is not just extra maps and single player dungeons but also gameplay features like head to head and co-op, trading chatting and all the rest). They might add a few more minutes of gameplay here and there but I can find newer thrills faster elsewhere. Neither of them had especially inspired gameplay for my preference. I'm not a big fantasy head. It doesn't addict me.
I'm not planning on playing any game forever. How tedious would that be? So many softwares to see and explore and more being made every day. Why on earth would anyone want to carry on mindlessly repeating the same old routine? Talkabout uninspired. Chess is a great great game, you can play it again and agian throughout your entire life, but dude.....try Counterstrike. Try Halo. Try Wipeout, try WoW try Eve try Battlefield try Tetris try Space Invaders, try Marbles and Football....Cricket and Tennis...
Don't get stuck in a rut.
In general You'll find Scripted games heavier on the client side and Sandbox games heavier on the Server Side. this is because of the more complex equations to handle all the different variables that are involved to determine the systems reactions which must be held Server side.
The other thing is that why WoW has alot of methods to get to it, it does have a very defined end-point till blizzard add stuff to raise it. lvl 60, Tier 2 gear(is that the highest now?), Max craft skills, Epic mount, PvP rank gear. Once you hit that point you have the option to start a new character at head towards the same end point again, or contiue to repeat the same quests/raids over and over.
Now that said as a EVE player its not a pure sandbox game but itsas close to it as I've played so far. And its got a huge section of stuff to fill up or at least some more tools for players to amnipulate the enviroment with but I have hope, That and I like the explosions that torpedos make
You're completely misusing the word 'content'. If you were around in the dieing days of SWG, post (and in some ways, pre) CU, people were generally saying "the games shit. it's got great ideas, but it's so bugged, and there's no content". Content and Game-systems (which is what you're misunderstanding as 'content') are completely different. SWG had VERY little 'content'. Sure, you could do some jedi quests. Or maybe go to Kashyyk (shit... I've not played in so long I can't even spell that anymore -_-). Or work on becoming a Pilot Ace. Those are content. Game-systems is what SWG had a lot of, making it the ultimate sandbox mmorpg (imho). The crafting/resource system and economy was absolutely awesome, and a game system. Not content. PvP, another great game element, is a game system. Not content - except on occassion, like when those furry lovable CSRs decided it would be a cool idea to surround Mos Entha with about 2000 elite storm troopers and wait to see what KDS did to stop us farming them. That was painful. Used easily 6 suits of armour dieing then. More importantly, more than a crate of mind poison and disease
Other players get in your way.
What fun is the Sandbox if you only have a tiny bit and get slapped down if you try to get more.
So you get a gang together, but its not longer about what you want to do, its about what your posse wants to do.
If Eve was a Sandbox game, I could fly from one side of the galaxy to the other without someone else imposing what they want to do on me(ie blow me up).
Eve is a Brilliantly open game, probably the most open game.
There won't be a true Sandbox Multiplayer till VR gets really really good.
I mean basically Real Life without any boundries. So if you want to fly off into space and fight <insert target here>, or mine, or produce, or sit in the station and gamble, or have full cyber with some chick (probably a cyberdragqueen) in the station loading bay.
I will admit a MMOG is a true sandbox, when its like the Matrix. Without the dying in real life or nasty programs wondering around.
Also a True Sandbox does not place limits on you, Eve places limits on you from the get go.
you are confused. a sandbox is not a magic lamp. Simcity was a sandbox game, yet you couldnt do anythin you wanted. you had a limit on your cash. and of course, if you didnt build police stations, crime would eat you, even if you really wanted not to. also, you couldnt build anything on the water, only docks. does it mean that because you couldnt build schools on the sea Simcity was not a sandbox game?
so yes, sandbox games also have limits. on single playuer games, the limits are set by the game. on multiplayer games, you also have to count with players. but they dont limit your gameplay, only affect it. no player can refrain you or forbid you to do whatever you want, although they can make it much more difficult than is should be. that is because for them is also a sandbox game, not only for you.
And a sandbox has its bounderies and rules. Starting with the Wood/Plastic/Metal edge keeping all the sand in the box. And Including whether or not you have any water or molds to build stuff. A sandbix game is not a game with out problems to deal with or a complete freedom of progress. Frankly if it was you wouldn't enjoy it much as what would you overcome? Why is building a sand castle fun, because your getting a pile of Sand to stay shaped into something that doesn't fall down due to gravity. Without gravity frankly there would be no challenge in building one and no sense of accomplishment.
And in your sense there will be never be a sandbox MMO, because if there is a restriction to me walking over and killing your character then there is a rule there preventing me from doing something, so I'm now limited. And if I can kill you then I can prevent you from doing something, so now your limited by another player. So the only possible sandbox game in your world will be singleplayer, but then again there your limited to the fact that you can't interact with another human player...
You're all making this too complicated. The way i see it is how is the majority of the content and the advancment provided.
If content comes through quests and designer methods (which includes PVE dungeons etc). Then that is not sandbox. WoW is not sandbox.
If advance is through one method (think Levels etc), then that is not sandbox, so EQ, EQ2,WoW etc are not sandbox.
It's often easier say what sandbox isn't than what is.....
Basically the more freedom in terms of what you can do, in terms of adavncement and content, the more 'sandbox' the game is. SWG was pretty sandbox, but also needed a lot more content.
A "sandbox" MMOG has no levels or character classes or quests or "Good npcing" whatever that is...lol.
I find it hillarious that people toss this term around with no clue of how it originated.
A "Sandbox" MMORPG is an MMORPG that doesn't limit players in any way. You don't get tied to a particular class, you can be anythign you want. Preferably there are no 'levels' just 'skills'. Crafting is typically the primary way of acquiring items (either buying from crafters or making items yourself). There can, and often are, quests and can and often are excellent NPC encounters. Primarilly a "sandbox" is "as close to a real world as you can get while still being a GAME".
EQ2 isn't a sandbox since it locks you into a class, and a level system. You can't ever change it.
Ryzom is nearly a sandbox it doesn't tie you by class but because things are stratified by "level" it limits player interaction.
EVE and UO are true sandboxes because anyone can just jump right in and be fairly useful to any group. SWG was a sandbox as well.
In a sandbox the skills define the character and the world is malleable. Character actions have a definable impact on the game.
EQ2 is a game
EVE is a world
WoW is a game
UO is a World
SWG:NGE is a Game
SWG:Pre-NGE was a World
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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Still in: A couple Betas
NPC's in RPg games such as Diablo were good, moslty I played Diablo multiplayer. If I like the NPC's scripts my friends playing with me might enjoy them too. An RPG game has a certain formula that players want.
Diablo is not an RPG, it's an action game with RPG elements and the dialogue is ok. Actually compared to the quality of dialogue in a game like BG it's shit
You can siongle out any other feature you like too. If one game doesn't bother with it and another makes the effort for the same price, it's an easy decision. What does Eve actually bother with? The economy. That's about it. Everytrhing else is par or sub par. It's a great game good concept some nice features, but ultimately nothing like as many of them as it'scontemporaies. If it was a fantasy game it would have failed.
EVE's whole concept revolves around player interaction. It's arguably the whole purpose of MMO's to begin with. They've built the tools to facilitate that. These tools are NOT simple to program. You seem to be mistaking scripting quests, which is simple with tools, with actual game systems programming, which effects the entire game. Coders do not do scripting, content teams do, you do not need to know how to program to script missions. Game systems DO require coding and you do need to know how to program to do them, they are much more complex.
All MMO's are sandbox. Wow is infinitely more complex than Eve's programming and it's economy and the economy tools are the most advanced in any MMO yet. Including Eve. The only thing on your list that WoW doesn't also do is construction/housing. But then it does a lot of other stuff besides.
Eve is content lite. Wow is the content boss. Both are sandbox.
A sandbox requires that there are no or few restrictions placed on the player. WoW is EXTREMELY restrictive in what you can do. IT IS NOT A SANDBOX! As I stated before, static scripts and restrictive gameplay is NOT complex. Designing dynamic game systems that are balanced with regards to the rest of the game systems is exponentially more difficult to do. WoW's economy is virtually non-existant. You either vendor something or sell it on auction. It's about as simple as you can get. There is no Supply/Demand, no real competition, no player co-operation involved and there rediculous inflation because there are too many money faucets in game and not enough sinks.
No offense but creating and balancing PvP is a vastly shorter programming process than creating and balancing PvE. There really is no comparison, it's not in the same league. Player Vs Player interaction is quick to produce and simple to bug fix. (Comparatively).
Uh....no. Blizzard has been trying to balance the classes for PVP since launch and still hasn't finished. PVE balance is easy when compared to PVP because NPC's attributes can be changed quite easily to fix problems, worst case they can just cheat to make it work. You can do no such thing for PVP balance.
If I was programming a game that featured both elements, the bulk of my time would be spent on the PVE and that element would be made before any PvP was added. You might notice that all developments follow this formula.
And the PVP would suck just like it does in most PVE games that have PVP tacked on later. Games that are designed to be PVP-Centric from the ground up have far better PVP because they are designed that way from the beginning. WoW's PVP sucks, EQ2's is only slightly better as are most other games that added PVP to make up for a lack of quality content and keep people on the treadmill longer.
PvE content is harder to progam, not just for the triggers but also the AI, the CPU stress and scaleability. most of the same problems found in PvP coding are still there as other players are still involved. The game balancing not only requires every combination of playertype as it does in PvP but also every combination of player type vs every combination of monster type. The permutations of this element alone are monumentally higher than any simple PvP equation.
No it's not, it's more time consuming but that's about it, the designers will have a number of preset ai behaviours that they can choose from when placing mobs, they have a brush tool to place the mobs. They then tweak the respawn rate and a few other parameters and then repeat ad nauseum. Not exactly the rocket science of game design IMO. The AI in MMO's is has to be simple because it would put too much load on the servers otherwise. That's why it takes about 3 seconds to figure out how to beat most mobs in MMO's.
Simple maze game WoW is not. It is the highest tech MMO on the market. It may not be your particular flavour or style of game, but the programming skill and content is above and beyond anything else out there. no contenders. I look forward to seeing the next generation after WoW too. With each major generation jump the level of coding and functionality greatly improves. I'm a fan of technology.
There is nothing groundbreaking about WoW or it's coding, it's a shallow, cookie-cutter refinement of games that came before it. It's easy to get into, it's easy to play and it's easy to beat. It has a nice UI and good art style, but otherwise is largely unremarkable.
Being in the MMO industry and looking at all the various approaches to game design, creating a "sandbox" game is way more in depth than creating linear script driven content. I believe this was touched upon in another post in this thread. But when you allow people to place a building in any area they wish... this causes headaches for your engine.
Saying that script driven games take more time to make and show that the devs are not lazy is just crazy.
Player made content is easy for the player to make because the programming that went into it pretty much gave the player Dev powers. But being able to hand off this power to the player is not an easy task. Take a simple SQL database for example. I gaurantee you that there is only 1 or 2 people that are allowed to work on and change this database. Yes users have the ability to use the database, but imagine giving all users admin rights. Then count the amount of seconds it takes to destroy the database.
What gamers often forget is that these games take time. And when creating a scripted environment, Devs know exactly what the player is going to do with object "A". In a sandbox game, gamers have the ability to do multiple if not 30 to 40 things to do with object "A".
Level based systems lend themselves to a very linear gameplay with an end, which is what MMO's were just not meant to do.
Skill based opens up the system to allow pllayers to determine what they enjoy doing.
If you are a Warlock in WoW, and you hate summoning pets... there isn't much you can do about it.
If you are a lumberjack in UO and you get sick of chopping wood... you can pick up a needle and some cloth and start to sew.
You may want to have a look at a mech oriented MMORPG currently being developed titled Force of Arms. I believe the intention is to allow players to terraform a planet. Sounds like the crafting/engineering system will allow for some interesting vehicle designs, etc.
http://www.forceofarms.com
An early preview trailer:
http://www.forceofarms.com/movies/FOA_1Minute_Final.wmv