First, be heard, this topic is a step in a good direction. Companies that allow such shit to happen must get the reputation they deserve. In healthy industy, companies that are know for being unreliable suffer. In mmorpg industry, due the “fanboy syndrome”, most people prefer not to say bad things about theirs favorite games outside of their community, as they get very attached to them, and do not want to scare new players off.
Second off all, players need to change the general approach to boters and gold buyers. We really need to unleash hell on each and every single one moth*****er that pulls something like that off. Back in the days that I played CS, any player that was caught cheating was practically screwed in the community unless he changed his in game identity.
Not sure who is responsible for this, mmorpg admins, or the web hosters, but I’m honestly sick off all these adds at mmorpg.com that refer to gold sellers and leveling services. Its just disgusting, I’m writing a post like this while there is a big red banner advertising the same things I trying to fight on the left side of my screen.
And please do not turn this into a l2 bashing thread. Right now if we players need to unite against anything, that would be it, as it in various extent applies to all of us. And the future of mmorpg game industry in general. (woah, got a bit carried away there… sorry for the drama overdose)
More letters to NCSoft, I am working on elevating this as high as it will go.
Piss me off, huh? Fix their sorry asses.
Hello,
I have been a paying customer on and off for the past year. I can not express my disappointment over the incredible poor display of customer service I have experience in my entire professional career.
After the launch of the new server, Franz, many players logged in to find that there where literally hundreds of bots (automated programs which are used to farm things like the mats in your game and currency for resale on assorted web sites)
Screenshots and reports where provided. No action was taken. A simple visit from anyone from NCSoft would have more then enough to prove beyond a doubt that there where hundreds of bots. No action was taken.
When many of us went to the official boards to voice our concerns, unbelievably, our threads where deleted, locked and our accounts where banned.
What sort of customer service solution is that? I pay my monthly fee and this is how you treat me as a customer? Outrageous! Insulting!
I am a professional, I have been in management for over ten years. If one of my staff behaved in this manor to any customer, internal or external I would have his/her job. Your treatment of the community is pathetic.
Your policy of only post issues about bots in your "bot detection thread" is nothing more then an attempt to hide the real issue. The game probably has more bot/farmer programs then legitimate players.
It is probably time your management takes a good hard look at its policies concerning
Customer service
The use of illegal programs that are specific violation of your own user agreement.
The TRUE state of the game.
I have cancelled my subscription because of the intolerable and blatant disrespect displayed by your company. I will be forwarding this message to the highest level in your organization possible.
I think whats telling is this site still posts news information on MMOs that really provide substandard customer service. Front Page, news headline that Lineage 2, has released chapter 5.
That tells me the writers of this website are out of touch with certain MMOs that do not help the customer by profividing a honest gaming enviroment.
So we rail on the Developers of the game who do not do enough to improve our gaming conditions, I feel the same could be said for sites like this that do not do enough to push these unkempt don't care who their gamers are MMOs under the rug. Sites like this should be treating them like they aren't wanted.
Originally posted by LuRavi I think whats telling is this site still posts news information on MMOs that really provide substandard customer service. Front Page, news headline that Lineage 2, has released chapter 5. That tells me the writers of this website are out of touch with certain MMOs that do not help the customer by profividing a honest gaming enviroment. So we rail on the Developers of the game who do not do enough to improve our gaming conditions, I feel the same could be said for sites like this that do not do enough to push these unkempt don't care who their gamers are MMOs under the rug. Sites like this should be treating them like they aren't wanted.
Your point being that they shouldn't provide any news if you don't like their customer service?
You're out of touch with the point of a site like this.
But you have this forum, and your keyboard, and your right to say whatever you wish to say...so have fun.
I completely agree! mmorpg.com should do an editorial on it, maybe NcSoft will finally realize...
I believe (Do not flame me please) that Lineage 2 had a great design, I wouldn't mind putting up with the grind if it hadn't been for all this cheating going on. I was actually going to go to the new server but suddenly when I saw horrifying pictures of bots.. I felt sick to my stomache thinking how could I have been so oblivious to the fact that bots would effect this server as well .
NcSoft by far has the worst Customer Service, atleast in Lineage 2. They said they had to investigate each and every reported player, but it only takes a monkey to figure out what is weird when you see 300 dwarfs doing the same thing over and over again or anything other race.
Asheron's Call, Star Wars Galaxies, EVE. Entire professions were destroyed or seriously curtailed because of botting. Sometimes for gold farming. Sometimes for power playing. All the time, CS tends to turn a blind eye.
Some like Asheron's Call say that they need bot subscription money, so they don't discourage it.
Some like SWG don't need bot subscription money, yet they'll make exceptions in the TOS to do it.
Some like EVE neither need bot subscription money, nor say they'll make exceptions, but do very little to nothing to stop it.
The only game that really put a stop to botting, as far as I can see, is CoH/CoV, ironically. Also from NCSoft. They put the foot down early and hard when people started to grind AFK. That put a stop to it for the most part, but unless you do it as soon as it becomes noticeable, and really mean it, botting will become an institution, like it is in L2.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by ianubisi Bots can only thrive in a game with shoddy design.
This should be made into one of those inspiration posters with like a dolphin jumping out the water backed by a sunset or something.
Absolute gem of wisdom and nothing less than Ive come to expect from Ianubisi. he doesnt say much but when he does, its like a sharpened laser
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Originally posted by MmoSwan Originally posted by ianubisi Bots can only thrive in a game with shoddy design.
That claim is totally wrong and not related at all to this thread. Make a new thread instead of hijacking this one if you really want to discuss and I am happy to reply.
Originally posted by MmoSwan Originally posted by ianubisi Bots can only thrive in a game with shoddy design.
That claim is totally wrong and not related at all to this thread. Make a new thread instead of hijacking this one if you really want to discuss and I am happy to reply.
Thanks,
the swan
Ian is right.
A fair use of instancing make all bots issues irrelevants as they don't apply to you anymore. Of course, that means you actually accept instancing with it lower bandwidth requests and the fact it doesn't mean a harsh competition between players.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
A fair use of instancing make all bots issues irrelevants as they don't apply to you anymore. Of course, that means you actually accept instancing with it lower bandwidth requests and the fact it doesn't mean a harsh competition between players.
So you generally think that if you are able to hide bots from the community it is all OK?
How the hell does that resolve selling game currency, and unfair gameplay?
Some of us do not want to play in instanced dungeons, hate the concept of it, as we enjoy the feeling of being a member of a consistent game world. Why should we be deprived off our preferred play style?
The ebayers, and unfair players are the main issue there. Do a stupid AI running around just killing stuff has a huge impact my game experience? No.
Do a ruined economy, and community that patronizes cheating does? Hell yeah.
First off, let me express my support for this unbelievable condition. Nobody should be treated like that, paying customers the less.
Now thoug, let me give you an advice, you can listen to it or not. What you think is the reaction of whoever receive your email, Torak, when he reads it? "another piece of hateboys trash" and click "delete".
Result? you vented your frustration for the moment but no real results will happen.
This might be compounded by the fact NCSoft is an asian company, as you know in asian culture saying things directly is considered a grave insults. You NEVER EVER says to a person "you look like shit today", it is a mortal insult to do so.
Of course NCSoft US should have american emplyers, but that is not always the case as we know Garriot, leader of NCSoft Austin was working with korean people before.
That being said, being polite and, this especially, using reverse psychology can be of more use than sounding pissed like a bee (and i am sure you are, but bear with me).
For example, if you are an electical company and one of your customers is not paying, what is your final goal? A) getting the money, getting the money AND keeping the customer or C) **** off customer.
B would be the optimal. Now if you send him a angry letter with angry tones, he might eventually pay for fear of legal repercussions, but he will start disliking your company, will change service (if possible in his area) and will start spewing bad advertisement for your company.
Sending him a more polite letter, in which you claim there has surely been an error on your half and the accounting software has not registered his payment, "could you be so kind to compile this form telling us when and how you paid the bill?" Could result in nothing, but in most people will trigger a sense of guilty. The customer prolly just forgot to pay the bill in the first place (unless he is known to do such things, then it is better to lose him than anything), if he get assaulted by the company he will immediatly react in a defensive way. If the wording is appropriate, the guy himself will feel guilty and pay off immediatly.
So in this case, what you can do? Here is an example: "I'm sorry to bother, dear customer support of NCSoft, i was reading your EULA just yesterday and i happened to notice this and this sections. surely there is a mistake though, i noticed just yesterday dozens of people making acts againts this and this section (screenies), could you please clarify to me the mistake? thanks."
Would you obtain results? i can't say but i can tell you that if you send them angry mails and post angry threads, they will just delete, lock and forget.
Have a nice day and good luck.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Another problem is that due to the high level of addiction that MMORPGs have, most are unable to speak with their wallet. Does anybody know if NCsoft have made any statement on their official forums?
I've tried contacting them and using their customer support system but have had no reply.
You know what I love about the whole gold selling/powerlevelling/virtual trading/bot farming/ebay is satan thing ??
The main argument of those who want to point the finger at someone other than the culprits (the game developers), is that it ruins the game for "normal folks" and creates an "unlevel playing field"
Well I recently got a G15 Keyboard and a G5 mouse. Id say they un-level the playing field pretty effectivley in most games I play. Not to mention the fact that my new 64x2 SLI rig with 1.5MB DSL means I get my pick of vehicles in BF2 because 90% of the time I log in before anyone else.
So what Im saying is.
A: You will never have a level playing field and gold farming is 1% of the reason why
B: This topic further illustrates how crystal clear it is that the power to develop a game world carries with it the responsibility to secure that world in such a way as it offers the best chance for everyone to enjoy it equally.
I cant think of an MMO that does that effectively. The simple reason for which is that the developers lack the combination of will and imagination to properly develop their products in this area.
Somewhere between the madness of Lineage 2's economy and a world were everything was soulbound on pickup and not tradeable with no currency system, lies an MMO world were bots, farming and the trading of virtual goods for real world money, in a way that detracts from the enjoyment of play of others is just a bad memory. All we need is a Developer with the guts and forsight to provide it for us.
BTW I like the idea so much..... I decided to do it ROFL
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
The problem is, right now, that things are getting worse. Yes, good game design reduces the need for bots and gold farming, and makes it harder to make bots that could handle it, cant argue about that one.
But we really need to remind some companies that they are not only responsible for creating a mmo game, they also need to provide a fair and healthy environment for their subscribers.
This thread is initially created as an act of protest, against the way we are being treated as customers. I feel that community management was is something considered at very end of game development, which is ridiculous when most of your profit will be from monthly fees.
So I would like to add one little to your to your pretty dolphin picture, maybe not so catchy, and way less optimistic. Bots can also thrive when enough of people does not give a shit about it.
Originally posted by Metzger Bots can also thrive when enough of people does not give a shit about it. True enough
True enough
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
A fair use of instancing make all bots issues irrelevants as they don't apply to you anymore. Of course, that means you actually accept instancing with it lower bandwidth requests and the fact it doesn't mean a harsh competition between players.
A open pvp games where the players hide in instances? Epic castle sieges with over 1k players where the players fight it out in 4 vs 4 teams and the scores get added for the final results? Or what exactly are you talking about? And a pvp game without competition? Imho you got some really weird ideas.
I would never trade the social component, the fun of big castle sieges, the ability to freely trade etc for boring features like instances, pick on bind etc. I play GW sometimes and it's fun but it's nowhere comparable to the possibilties you have in L2. I also played WoW and never could get used to just killing during raids and to not have the danger of some enemy alliance attacking.´
So really, instances are the worst possible solution for an open pvp game.
Originally posted by Volkmar Now thoug, let me give you an advice, you can listen to it or not. What you think is the reaction of whoever receive your email, Torak, when he reads it? "another piece of hateboys trash" and click "delete".
Most L2 players stopped caring about being polite to the ncsoft staff. No matter if you are polite or flame you get censored, banned and ignored as soon as you use the slightest reference to the bot problem outside the official bot detection thread that tries to hide the problem in the tech forum. The players keep their mouth shut because they know whatever they do it's useless when it's the Lineage 2 support.
This goes on until people got enough of NcSoft's ignorance and then they usually explode on petition or the forum giving NcSoft an excuse to ban them. But really, they don't need that. They gonna censor your posts even if it just contains a screenshot that shows something bot like looking and you're talking about something else.
the swan
|| Languages for gamers: http://gamerslingo.com /where God ERROR: Target could not be found /target Believer /skill science You missed your target since Believer ignores science /skill logic You missed your target since Believer traded all his INT for faith.
Just IP ban the continent of Asia, that'll cut down most of your botters right there.
For the rest, shut down their accounts as they are found, make them buy another game account to play on, this should pay for the enforcement.
I think the MMO industry can snuff macroers and botters if they wanted to.
What incentive do they have? The botter is prolly paying multiple subsciption fees and encouraging his customers to stay in the game by selling him gold.
People that pay RL money for virtual loot don't shut down their accounts. They play forever to justify the expense.
Conclusion :
The MMO industry can get rid of botters. It is not in their financial interest to do so.
Originally posted by fizzle322 Just IP ban the continent of Asia, that'll cut down most of your botters right there.
For the rest, shut down their accounts as they are found, make them buy another game account to play on, this should pay for the enforcement.
I think the MMO industry can snuff macroers and botters if they wanted to.
What incentive do they have? The botter is prolly paying multiple subsciption fees and encouraging his customers to stay in the game by selling him gold.
People that pay RL money for virtual loot don't shut down their accounts. They play forever to justify the expense.
Conclusion :
The MMO industry can get rid of botters. It is not in their financial interest to do so.
Executive summary :
Botters are here to stay.
It's sort of the same concept as design flaws for companies. If there is a fatal flaw within' the product, they determine the cost of settling the probably lawsuits from individuals and families harmed by the defect.
If Recall/Redesign > Lawsuits
The company just settles the lawsuits to save money. It's not morally correct by any means, but morals are in low supply when it comes to economics.
Originally posted by LuRavi I think whats telling is this site still posts news information on MMOs that really provide substandard customer service. Front Page, news headline that Lineage 2, has released chapter 5. That tells me the writers of this website are out of touch with certain MMOs that do not help the customer by profividing a honest gaming enviroment. So we rail on the Developers of the game who do not do enough to improve our gaming conditions, I feel the same could be said for sites like this that do not do enough to push these unkempt don't care who their gamers are MMOs under the rug. Sites like this should be treating them like they aren't wanted.
Exactly. My previous post was deleted for accusing MMORPG.com of promoting gold farming by running adverts by those companies. They can't handle the truth.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
A fair use of instancing make all bots issues irrelevants as they don't apply to you anymore. Of course, that means you actually accept instancing with it lower bandwidth requests and the fact it doesn't mean a harsh competition between players.
Wrong
It still affects the economy in a negative way. Instancing places less restrictions on bots who can farm non stop without competition.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Razorback Originally posted by Metzger Bots can also thrive when enough of people does not give a shit about it. True enough
True enough
True enough
Thanks for the support everyone.
As for this statement. I don't think that is the case with the legit players. Although we have had to put up with it. Nothing to this extream ever showed itself. L2 is a HUGE seamless, non-instanced world. Yes there where "hot" spots but the world was more then big enough to make it not so noticable.
What was shocking for alot of people was to see the orgy of hundreds of bots starting out. (it was pretty amazing as you can see from the screenshots) Within a few days most of those bots will fade into the less travelled portions of the world and become very spred out.
Its not the legit players who "don't give a shit" we would elimate them today if we could. But we are powerless. Our reports are ignored and not acted on. Our complaints are deleted and our accounts banned for making the post.
L2 is a very good game. It has a vast seemless world. It has PvP with purpose and impact. It has a complexe social system, it also has a player controlled economy. It is a hard game, no question. Its not low quality. Its art is fantastic. It doesn't appeal to many in the west. Maybe if there where not so many Bots, people might feel different about it, I don't know. Its irrelevent.
My point is, its the COMPANY who doesn't give a shit, not the players. We do our part. We report. We complain. (we kill the bots to) Thats what the agreement is. We play by the rules and in return NCSoft administers the game and enforces its OWN rules. Thats the agreement everyone who plays MMO's clicks on everytime they log into a game. You agree to the rules of play. I Pay my monthly service fee and I expect some degree of competant customer service.
Why punish me for posting on the forum that there are alot of bots? That something needs to be done? I am not braking the user agreement. Its simple. Its easier to sweep us under the rug and report steady sales numbers then it is to face a problem and fix it. If NCSoft turns their back on us the legit concerned players then what is left? Do what you want I guess, just don't say it on the offical forum.
Would L2 suffer if the bots where eliminated? Sure. Who knows how many users are actually bots. Would L2 benefit in the long run if the bots where eliminated? I like to think so. At least the game could succeed or fail on the merits of its legit players and appeal of game not the artifical support of farmers.
Originally posted by Torak Would L2 suffer if the bots where eliminated? Sure.
No, they would not. They would actually benefit.
Blizzard figured out a long time ago while running Battle.net that by banning users that cheated they usually saw those same users plop down retail again for the box and give it another go. This cycle repeated rather constantly.
Dedicated farmers, the ones using bots, are going to buy another license key and start their operation again. They will go undetected for a period of time until they're caught again and repeat this cycle until the costs outweigh the profits.
For the company, in this case NCSoft, this means a new windfall of retail profit and more licensing.
Every time you see these companies announce their "crackdown" on cheaters, keep this is mind. While I do believe most of these companies want people to play "by the rules", they have no qualms killing an account that they know will reincarnate again.
Sorry to say it Torak but no one will every do anything to fix the botters in L2. I saw actual screenshot from a RL friend of a GM offering my friend an Uber set of armor and weapon to just stop complaining. My friend was so annoyed he was sending customer server emails, posting on the forums and sending reports to ingame Gm's every time he saw a bot(which is usually like 100 times a day) Now imo either this gm was involved with the botters or he just didnt care.
Comments
First, be heard, this topic is a step in a good direction. Companies
that allow such shit to happen must get the reputation they deserve. In healthy
industy, companies that are know for being unreliable suffer. In mmorpg
industry, due the “fanboy syndrome”, most people prefer not to say bad things about
theirs favorite games outside of their community, as they get very attached to
them, and do not want to scare new players off.
Second off all, players need to change the general approach to boters
and gold buyers. We really need to unleash hell on each and every single one
moth*****er that pulls something like that off. Back in the days that I played
CS, any player that was caught cheating was practically screwed in the
community unless he changed his in game identity.
Not sure who is responsible for this, mmorpg admins, or the web hosters,
but I’m honestly sick off all these adds at mmorpg.com that refer to gold
sellers and leveling services. Its just disgusting, I’m writing a post like
this while there is a big red banner advertising the same things I trying to
fight on the left side of my screen.
And please do not turn this into a l2 bashing thread. Right now if we
players need to unite against anything, that would be it, as it in various
extent applies to all of us. And the future of mmorpg game industry in general.
(woah, got a bit carried away there… sorry for the drama overdose)
More letters to NCSoft, I am working on elevating this as high as it will go.
Piss me off, huh? Fix their sorry asses.
I think whats telling is this site still posts news information on MMOs that really provide substandard customer service. Front Page, news headline that Lineage 2, has released chapter 5.
That tells me the writers of this website are out of touch with certain MMOs that do not help the customer by profividing a honest gaming enviroment.
So we rail on the Developers of the game who do not do enough to improve our gaming conditions, I feel the same could be said for sites like this that do not do enough to push these unkempt don't care who their gamers are MMOs under the rug. Sites like this should be treating them like they aren't wanted.
Your point being that they shouldn't provide any news if you don't like their customer service?
You're out of touch with the point of a site like this.
But you have this forum, and your keyboard, and your right to say whatever you wish to say...so have fun.
I believe (Do not flame me please) that Lineage 2 had a great design, I wouldn't mind putting up with the grind if it hadn't been for all this cheating going on. I was actually going to go to the new server but suddenly when I saw horrifying pictures of bots.. I felt sick to my stomache thinking how could I have been so oblivious to the fact that bots would effect this server as well
NcSoft by far has the worst Customer Service, atleast in Lineage 2. They said they had to investigate each and every reported player, but it only takes a monkey to figure out what is weird when you see 300 dwarfs doing the same thing over and over again or anything other race.
~Greatness~
Currently Playing:
Nothing
I have to agree with elnador here.
Asheron's Call, Star Wars Galaxies, EVE. Entire professions were destroyed or seriously curtailed because of botting. Sometimes for gold farming. Sometimes for power playing. All the time, CS tends to turn a blind eye.
Some like Asheron's Call say that they need bot subscription money, so they don't discourage it.
Some like SWG don't need bot subscription money, yet they'll make exceptions in the TOS to do it.
Some like EVE neither need bot subscription money, nor say they'll make exceptions, but do very little to nothing to stop it.
The only game that really put a stop to botting, as far as I can see, is CoH/CoV, ironically. Also from NCSoft. They put the foot down early and hard when people started to grind AFK. That put a stop to it for the most part, but unless you do it as soon as it becomes noticeable, and really mean it, botting will become an institution, like it is in L2.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
This should be made into one of those inspiration posters with like a dolphin jumping out the water backed by a sunset or something.
Absolute gem of wisdom and nothing less than Ive come to expect from Ianubisi. he doesnt say much but when he does, its like a sharpened laser
+-+-+-+-+-+
"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
-+-+-+-+-+-+
"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
That claim is totally wrong and not related at all to this thread. Make a new thread instead of hijacking this one if you really want to discuss and I am happy to reply.
Thanks,
the swan
I agree.
That claim is totally wrong and not related at all to this thread. Make a new thread instead of hijacking this one if you really want to discuss and I am happy to reply.
Thanks,
the swan
Ian is right.
A fair use of instancing make all bots issues irrelevants as they don't apply to you anymore. Of course, that means you actually accept instancing with it lower bandwidth requests and the fact it doesn't mean a harsh competition between players.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
So you generally think that if
you are able to hide bots from the community it is all OK?
How the hell does that resolve
selling game currency, and unfair gameplay?
Some of us do not want to play in
instanced dungeons, hate the concept of it, as we enjoy the feeling of being a
member of a consistent game world. Why should we be deprived off our preferred play
style?
The ebayers, and unfair players
are the main issue there. Do a stupid AI running around just killing stuff has
a huge impact my game experience? No.
Do a ruined economy, and
community that patronizes cheating does? Hell yeah.
Sweeping bots under the rug just wont
do.
First off, let me express my support for this unbelievable condition. Nobody should be treated like that, paying customers the less.
Now thoug, let me give you an advice, you can listen to it or not. What you think is the reaction of whoever receive your email, Torak, when he reads it? "another piece of hateboys trash" and click "delete".
Result? you vented your frustration for the moment but no real results will happen.
This might be compounded by the fact NCSoft is an asian company, as you know in asian culture saying things directly is considered a grave insults. You NEVER EVER says to a person "you look like shit today", it is a mortal insult to do so.
Of course NCSoft US should have american emplyers, but that is not always the case as we know Garriot, leader of NCSoft Austin was working with korean people before.
That being said, being polite and, this especially, using reverse psychology can be of more use than sounding pissed like a bee (and i am sure you are, but bear with me).
For example, if you are an electical company and one of your customers is not paying, what is your final goal? A) getting the money,
getting the money AND keeping the customer or C) **** off customer.
B would be the optimal. Now if you send him a angry letter with angry tones, he might eventually pay for fear of legal repercussions, but he will start disliking your company, will change service (if possible in his area) and will start spewing bad advertisement for your company.
Sending him a more polite letter, in which you claim there has surely been an error on your half and the accounting software has not registered his payment, "could you be so kind to compile this form telling us when and how you paid the bill?" Could result in nothing, but in most people will trigger a sense of guilty. The customer prolly just forgot to pay the bill in the first place (unless he is known to do such things, then it is better to lose him than anything), if he get assaulted by the company he will immediatly react in a defensive way. If the wording is appropriate, the guy himself will feel guilty and pay off immediatly.
So in this case, what you can do? Here is an example: "I'm sorry to bother, dear customer support of NCSoft, i was reading your EULA just yesterday and i happened to notice this and this sections. surely there is a mistake though, i noticed just yesterday dozens of people making acts againts this and this section (screenies), could you please clarify to me the mistake? thanks."
Would you obtain results? i can't say but i can tell you that if you send them angry mails and post angry threads, they will just delete, lock and forget.
Have a nice day and good luck.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
Another problem is that due to the high level of addiction that MMORPGs have, most are unable to speak with their wallet. Does anybody know if NCsoft have made any statement on their official forums?
I've tried contacting them and using their customer support system but have had no reply.
You know what I love about the whole gold selling/powerlevelling/virtual trading/bot farming/ebay is satan thing ??
The main argument of those who want to point the finger at someone other than the culprits (the game developers), is that it ruins the game for "normal folks" and creates an "unlevel playing field"
Well I recently got a G15 Keyboard and a G5 mouse. Id say they un-level the playing field pretty effectivley in most games I play. Not to mention the fact that my new 64x2 SLI rig with 1.5MB DSL means I get my pick of vehicles in BF2 because 90% of the time I log in before anyone else.
So what Im saying is.
A: You will never have a level playing field and gold farming is 1% of the reason why
B: This topic further illustrates how crystal clear it is that the power to develop a game world carries with it the responsibility to secure that world in such a way as it offers the best chance for everyone to enjoy it equally.
I cant think of an MMO that does that effectively. The simple reason for which is that the developers lack the combination of will and imagination to properly develop their products in this area.
Somewhere between the madness of Lineage 2's economy and a world were everything was soulbound on pickup and not tradeable with no currency system, lies an MMO world were bots, farming and the trading of virtual goods for real world money, in a way that detracts from the enjoyment of play of others is just a bad memory. All we need is a Developer with the guts and forsight to provide it for us.
BTW I like the idea so much..... I decided to do it ROFL
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
The problem is, right now, that
things are getting worse. Yes, good game design reduces the need for bots and
gold farming, and makes it harder to make bots that could handle it, cant argue
about that one.
But we really need to remind some
companies that they are not only responsible for creating a mmo game, they also
need to provide a fair and healthy environment for their subscribers.
This thread is initially created as
an act of protest, against the way we are being treated as customers. I feel
that community management was is something considered at very end of game development,
which is ridiculous when most of your profit will be from monthly fees.
So I would like to add one little
to your to your pretty dolphin picture, maybe not so catchy, and way less
optimistic. Bots can also thrive when enough of people does not give a shit
about it.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
A open pvp games where the players hide in instances? Epic castle sieges with over 1k players where the players fight it out in 4 vs 4 teams and the scores get added for the final results? Or what exactly are you talking about? And a pvp game without competition? Imho you got some really weird ideas.
I would never trade the social component, the fun of big castle sieges, the ability to freely trade etc for boring features like instances, pick on bind etc. I play GW sometimes and it's fun but it's nowhere comparable to the possibilties you have in L2. I also played WoW and never could get used to just killing during raids and to not have the danger of some enemy alliance attacking.´
So really, instances are the worst possible solution for an open pvp game.
Most L2 players stopped caring about being polite to the ncsoft staff. No matter if you are polite or flame you get censored, banned and ignored as soon as you use the slightest reference to the bot problem outside the official bot detection thread that tries to hide the problem in the tech forum. The players keep their mouth shut because they know whatever they do it's useless when it's the Lineage 2 support.
This goes on until people got enough of NcSoft's ignorance and then they usually explode on petition or the forum giving NcSoft an excuse to ban them. But really, they don't need that. They gonna censor your posts even if it just contains a screenshot that shows something bot like looking and you're talking about something else.
the swan
|| Languages for gamers: http://gamerslingo.com
/where God
ERROR: Target could not be found
/target Believer
/skill science
You missed your target since Believer ignores science
/skill logic
You missed your target since Believer traded all his INT for faith.
For the rest, shut down their accounts as they are found, make them buy another game account to play on, this should pay for the enforcement.
I think the MMO industry can snuff macroers and botters if they wanted to.
What incentive do they have? The botter is prolly paying multiple subsciption fees and encouraging his customers to stay in the game by selling him gold.
People that pay RL money for virtual loot don't shut down their accounts. They play forever to justify the expense.
Conclusion :
The MMO industry can get rid of botters. It is not in their financial interest to do so.
Executive summary :
Botters are here to stay.
If Recall/Redesign > Lawsuits
The company just settles the lawsuits to save money. It's not morally correct by any means, but morals are in low supply when it comes to economics.
This should be made into one of those inspiration posters with like a dolphin jumping out the water backed by a sunset or something.
Absolute gem of wisdom and nothing less than Ive come to expect from Ianubisi. he doesnt say much but when he does, its like a sharpened laser
Undoubtably, game design is the major factor in whether a game is easily bottable or not.
But, how is that little "gem" supposed to help the starter of this thread or anyone else?
MMORPG
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Ian is right.
A fair use of instancing make all bots issues irrelevants as they don't apply to you anymore. Of course, that means you actually accept instancing with it lower bandwidth requests and the fact it doesn't mean a harsh competition between players.
Wrong
It still affects the economy in a negative way. Instancing places less restrictions on bots who can farm non stop without competition.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Thanks for the support everyone.
As for this statement. I don't think that is the case with the legit players. Although we have had to put up with it. Nothing to this extream ever showed itself. L2 is a HUGE seamless, non-instanced world. Yes there where "hot" spots but the world was more then big enough to make it not so noticable.
What was shocking for alot of people was to see the orgy of hundreds of bots starting out. (it was pretty amazing as you can see from the screenshots) Within a few days most of those bots will fade into the less travelled portions of the world and become very spred out.
Its not the legit players who "don't give a shit" we would elimate them today if we could. But we are powerless. Our reports are ignored and not acted on. Our complaints are deleted and our accounts banned for making the post.
L2 is a very good game. It has a vast seemless world. It has PvP with purpose and impact. It has a complexe social system, it also has a player controlled economy. It is a hard game, no question. Its not low quality. Its art is fantastic. It doesn't appeal to many in the west. Maybe if there where not so many Bots, people might feel different about it, I don't know. Its irrelevent.
My point is, its the COMPANY who doesn't give a shit, not the players. We do our part. We report. We complain. (we kill the bots to) Thats what the agreement is. We play by the rules and in return NCSoft administers the game and enforces its OWN rules. Thats the agreement everyone who plays MMO's clicks on everytime they log into a game. You agree to the rules of play. I Pay my monthly service fee and I expect some degree of competant customer service.
Why punish me for posting on the forum that there are alot of bots? That something needs to be done? I am not braking the user agreement. Its simple. Its easier to sweep us under the rug and report steady sales numbers then it is to face a problem and fix it. If NCSoft turns their back on us the legit concerned players then what is left? Do what you want I guess, just don't say it on the offical forum.
Would L2 suffer if the bots where eliminated? Sure. Who knows how many users are actually bots. Would L2 benefit in the long run if the bots where eliminated? I like to think so. At least the game could succeed or fail on the merits of its legit players and appeal of game not the artifical support of farmers.
That's frickin' hillarious, Razorback
No, they would not. They would actually benefit.
Blizzard figured out a long time ago while running Battle.net that by banning users that cheated they usually saw those same users plop down retail again for the box and give it another go. This cycle repeated rather constantly.
Dedicated farmers, the ones using bots, are going to buy another license key and start their operation again. They will go undetected for a period of time until they're caught again and repeat this cycle until the costs outweigh the profits.
For the company, in this case NCSoft, this means a new windfall of retail profit and more licensing.
Every time you see these companies announce their "crackdown" on cheaters, keep this is mind. While I do believe most of these companies want people to play "by the rules", they have no qualms killing an account that they know will reincarnate again.