Originally posted by daeandor No. Neither of you get it. In one thread you have Hohbein stating that he is a compassionate person. In the next thread he says "yay" at the death of another human. If you can't see anything wrong with that, then so be it, but I will try to explain.
The bottom line is that Hobhein feels that anyone who does not agree with his stance on "animal cruelty" is subhuman and deserves a similar fate as an animal killed in cruel way. The funny thing is that animals technically are subhuman, but yet he does not want a cruel death for them. Do you see the duplicity?
If he were true to his compassionate nature, he would say something like, "I would not even wish that kind of death to a person who committed such a cruel act." But he does not. So, I say he is not a compassionate person, but rather a facade here on the forums trying to create arguments where he can claim a moral high ground he himself does not even uphold. That is is hypocrisy and duplicity.
In my Hunter VS Lion thread, the ONLY thing I stated was that I CAN show compassion toward the other creatures that inhabbit this world with me (unlike the 'men' in the video's i've shown). By saying I CAN show compassion, somehow you are taking that to mean I am a peace loving christian passivist with no real idea of justice.
As I've already stated within this thread, I will only show compassion where compassion is due. Just as I wouldn't show a shread of compassion toward a murderer or rapist, I wouldn't show a shread of compassion toward somebody that took it upon themselves to cause a huge amount of suffering to another creature in the name of 'fun'.
Also, you say animals are 'subhuman', you are quite.. quite wrong, and this one sentence clearly demonstrates your utter lack of understanding when it comes to nature. Maybe that's why you feel it's fine to kill animals in the name of fun? While animals aren't the SAME as humans, to say they are 'below' us in any way is quite frankly disturbing and simply displays our worst trait as human beings, our ideas of supremecy above all else.
Originally posted by Hohbein Originally posted by daeandor No. Neither of you get it. In one thread you have Hohbein stating that he is a compassionate person. In the next thread he says "yay" at the death of another human. If you can't see anything wrong with that, then so be it, but I will try to explain.
The bottom line is that Hobhein feels that anyone who does not agree with his stance on "animal cruelty" is subhuman and deserves a similar fate as an animal killed in cruel way. The funny thing is that animals technically are subhuman, but yet he does not want a cruel death for them. Do you see the duplicity?
If he were true to his compassionate nature, he would say something like, "I would not even wish that kind of death to a person who committed such a cruel act." But he does not. So, I say he is not a compassionate person, but rather a facade here on the forums trying to create arguments where he can claim a moral high ground he himself does not even uphold. That is is hypocrisy and duplicity.
In my Hunter VS Lion thread, the ONLY thing I stated was that I CAN show compassion toward the other creatures that inhabbit this world with me (unlike the 'men' in the video's i've shown). By saying I CAN show compassion, somehow you are taking that to mean I am a peace loving christian passivist with no real idea of justice.
As I've already stated within this thread, I will only show compassion where compassion is due. Just as I wouldn't show a shread of compassion toward a murderer or rapist, I wouldn't show a shread of compassion toward somebody that took it upon themselves to cause a huge amount of suffering to another creature in the name of 'fun'.
Also, you say animals are 'subhuman', you are quite.. quite wrong, and this one sentence clearly demonstrates your utter lack of understanding when it comes to nature. Maybe that's why you feel it's fine to kill animals in the name of fun? While animals aren't the SAME as humans, to say they are 'below' us in any way is quite frankly disturbing and simply displays our worst trait as human beings, our ideas of supremecy above all else.
I agree, I agree, but in fact, we are above all creatures, BUT, this does not give us the right to do what these foolish spanish do, or these moronic hunters do, in fact, we are superior because we should be taking care of the nature, not destroy it, we have minds and the ability to build, protect, and safe-keep, not destroy stuff for our amusement, and this is where we are higher beings, because we stop bad things from happening if we are able to, not cause bad things to happen, this is called stupidity.
I agree, I agree, but in fact, we are above all creatures, BUT, this does not give us the right to do what these foolish spanish do, or these moronic hunters do, in fact, we are superior because we should be taking care of the nature, not destroy it, we have minds and the ability to build, protect, and safe-keep, not destroy stuff for our amusement, and this is where we are higher beings, because we stop bad things from happening if we are able to, not cause bad things to happen, this is called stupidity.
Whilst I don't quite agree with the 'we are superior' bits, the rest of this is dead on.
Originally posted by Cowinspace Originally posted by OneMuslim
I agree, I agree, but in fact, we are above all creatures, BUT, this does not give us the right to do what these foolish spanish do, or these moronic hunters do, in fact, we are superior because we should be taking care of the nature, not destroy it, we have minds and the ability to build, protect, and safe-keep, not destroy stuff for our amusement, and this is where we are higher beings, because we stop bad things from happening if we are able to, not cause bad things to happen, this is called stupidity.
Whilst I don't quite agree with the 'we are superior' bits, the rest of this is dead on.
I second that.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
In my Hunter VS Lion thread, the ONLY thing I stated was that I CAN show compassion toward the other creatures that inhabbit this world with me (unlike the 'men' in the video's i've shown). By saying I CAN show compassion, somehow you are taking that to mean I am a peace loving christian passivist with no real idea of justice.
As I've already stated within this thread, I will only show compassion where compassion is due. Just as I wouldn't show a shread of compassion toward a murderer or rapist, I wouldn't show a shread of compassion toward somebody that took it upon themselves to cause a huge amount of suffering to another creature in the name of 'fun'.
Also, you say animals are 'subhuman', you are quite.. quite wrong, and this one sentence clearly demonstrates your utter lack of understanding when it comes to nature. Maybe that's why you feel it's fine to kill animals in the name of fun? While animals aren't the SAME as humans, to say they are 'below' us in any way is quite frankly disturbing and simply displays our worst trait as human beings, our ideas of supremecy above all else.
And this is where I respond with: it is obvious you have an utter lack of understanding when it comes to hunting and have not comprehended my previous posts out of not caring to try and understand.
You and Alex assume too much. I have experienced both sides of this argument and can say that you are hypocritical and duplicitous for the sake of argument, choosing what is right and wrong to fit the situation so you can feel morally, and I guess intellectually, superior.
As far as the whole bullfighting thing, I never commented on that. Do not assume I condone it when I do not, just because I feel Hohbein's statements are irresponsible.
Originally posted by daeandor Originally posted by Hohbein
In my Hunter VS Lion thread, the ONLY thing I stated was that I CAN show compassion toward the other creatures that inhabbit this world with me (unlike the 'men' in the video's i've shown). By saying I CAN show compassion, somehow you are taking that to mean I am a peace loving christian passivist with no real idea of justice. As I've already stated within this thread, I will only show compassion where compassion is due. Just as I wouldn't show a shread of compassion toward a murderer or rapist, I wouldn't show a shread of compassion toward somebody that took it upon themselves to cause a huge amount of suffering to another creature in the name of 'fun'. Also, you say animals are 'subhuman', you are quite.. quite wrong, and this one sentence clearly demonstrates your utter lack of understanding when it comes to nature. Maybe that's why you feel it's fine to kill animals in the name of fun? While animals aren't the SAME as humans, to say they are 'below' us in any way is quite frankly disturbing and simply displays our worst trait as human beings, our ideas of supremecy above all else.
And this is where I respond with: it is obvious you have an utter lack of understanding when it comes to hunting and have not comprehended my previous posts out of not caring to try and understand.
You are quite right, I don't think I could ever understand why somebody would kill an animal in the name of fun. And to be honest, I'm quite glad I can't understand it.
You and Alex assume too much. I have experienced both sides of this argument and can say that you are hypocritical and duplicitous for the sake of argument, choosing what is right and wrong to fit the situation so you can feel morally, and I guess intellectually, superior.
Yet another paragraph which fails to actually put forward an argument, but instead attempts to mock me using big words. If you can quote me 'EXACTLY' when I have contradicted myself (quote me), I'll quite happily agree. Throughout the course of this thread, and the Lion VS Hunter thread I haven't said anything to contradict myself. You are reading into what I have said too far, and attempting to fabricate comments that never existed.
As far as the whole bullfighting thing, I never commented on that. Do not assume I condone it when I do not, just because I feel Hohbein's statements are irresponsible.
So you are stating that my opinions are irresponsible? How interesting.
hypocritical, pretending to have high moral standards but not practicing them
duplicitous, marked by duplicity, deceitful speech, having two meanings
not big words.
In the simplest terms possible:
You say you are compassionate in one thread, yet in this thread you cheer the death of a human. I read absolutely nothing "into" what you wrote. And I am not going to quote you for the 3rd time. I say that you are hypocritical and duplicitous because of those statements. You are just trying to save your moral rear end by deflecting the argument on my being "wrong" for being a hunter, when the fact still remains that you cannot be compassionate and cheer when a fellow human dies. Compassion, by use of the word, implies humane, which is sympathy toward animals AND humans, particularly those in distress. Distress implies great pain, which both the bull fighters and the bulls felt in your videos.
Bottom line, don't call me incompassionate and unstable when you have set certain personal limitations to your own compassion.
Daeander how can you have compassion and be a hunter at the same time? It's a complete dichotomy between thought and action; on one hand you are killing an animal, on the other hand you are sad for it's death....or are you?
I'll quote you "Compassion, by use of the word, implies humane, which is sympathy toward animals AND humans, particularly those in distress."
When you shoot an animal then that animal is in distress, or if it is a mother then include the babies that she left behind. So do you have compassion for these animals, and if so how does your compassion fit in? Then like you and everyone else here I will then judge whether your compassion is up to par.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by AlexAmore Daeander how can you have compassion and be a hunter at the same time? It's a complete dichotomy between thought and action; on one hand you are killing an animal, on the other hand you are sad for it's death....or are you?
I'll quote you "Compassion, by use of the word, implies humane, which is sympathy toward animals AND humans, particularly those in distress."
When you shoot an animal then that animal is in distress, or if it is a mother then include the babies that she left behind. So do you have compassion for these animals, and if so how does your compassion fit in? Then like you and everyone else here I will then judge whether your compassion is up to par.
You wouldn't believe me if I claimed to have compassion. You do not comprehend the concept of hunting and therefore cannot comprehend what goes through my mind. If you and Hohbien feel you are superior due to some higher moral and social standard you think you have, then so be it. You two are trying to use the old, I am better due to X, therefore my standard is the only one that is acceptable. I'm here to tell you that your standard is not the only one that is acceptable. I'm glad you two find it acceptable for a human to die if it means an animal won't be tortured. I do not.
Lastly, it is not a question of whether "my compassion is up to par." You are just trying to deflect off Hohbein.
For me the main difference between between the Bull and the Bullfighter is that of the two, only the Bullfighter chooses to be there.
The Bull has no say in whether or not he is tortured, horrifically, over an extended period of time, eventually resulting in his cruel, slow and painful death.
The Bullfighter however can choose to end his barbaric actions at any time. At any time he could stop, look up at the crowd, throw down his manly sword and even manlier cape and say "this is madness and you are all insane". But he doesnt , he continues to brutalise a defenceless animal in order to entertain people who should just be locked up for being criminally demented and to increase his own opnion of himself.
That in a nutshell is why the animal deserves to live and the person deserves to die. I, unlike Hohbien, do not claim to be compassionate toward either people or animals however, I can easily recognise the actions of someone who knows better, yet still allows his base instincts to control his behaviour and a creature who has no say in what happening to it.
Thats the difference.
As for the argument that "its a tradition". Well so was throwing christians to lions.... but for some reason that went out of favour.... who can say why ?
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Originally posted by daeandor Originally posted by AlexAmore Daeander how can you have compassion and be a hunter at the same time? It's a complete dichotomy between thought and action; on one hand you are killing an animal, on the other hand you are sad for it's death....or are you?
I'll quote you "Compassion, by use of the word, implies humane, which is sympathy toward animals AND humans, particularly those in distress."
When you shoot an animal then that animal is in distress, or if it is a mother then include the babies that she left behind. So do you have compassion for these animals, and if so how does your compassion fit in? Then like you and everyone else here I will then judge whether your compassion is up to par.
You wouldn't believe me if I claimed to have compassion. You do not comprehend the concept of hunting and therefore cannot comprehend what goes through my mind. You're right, I can't comprehend your need for death. If you and Hohbien feel you are superior due to some higher moral and social standard you think you have, then so be it. I didn't say that. I'm saying we should treat animals with respect instead of inferior beings/slaves. I don't know how that makes me sound like i'm superior. Killing animals for fun sounds like someone has a superiority complex. You two are trying to use the old, I am better due to X, therefore my standard is the only one that is acceptable. Yes I am above abusing/killing animals. I know how to have fun without having to resort to harming others; generally children grow out of that phase, but I guess not all... I'm here to tell you that your standard is not the only one that is acceptable. Is it acceptable for the animal? They seem very mad and scared. I'm glad you two find it acceptable for a human to die if it means an animal won't be tortured. I do not. Because you feel you are better than the animal, which negates any feelings that that the animal may feel....it simply doesn't matter to you.
Lastly, it is not a question of whether "my compassion is up to par." You are just trying to deflect off Hohbein. You have been bashing him for not having compassion for the human, so I have been bashing for not having compassion for the animals. By your definition compassion means for both the animal and human. The difference is the human was the aggressor and the animal was the victim, the animal won, and we cheer for the victim. I think any sane person would cheer for the victims if they overcome adversity.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
As for the argument that "its a tradition". Well so was throwing christians to lions.... but for some reason that went out of favour.... who can say why ?
It got boring after a couple hundred years......
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by AlexAmore Equal, as in biologically speaking. If you think fighting it out means showing who is better, then you maybe you should join Fight Club or something, and show who is the best person in the world. So I guess Mr. Universe is a better person than you because he can kill you methane?
Lol I can take mr universe.. He only has 300 pounds on me
I let her out and run her and she can go piss wherever she must.
Key word "let" You have full control... The dog is only allowed outside when YOU decide... hence you are treating your dog like a slave..
They do it because the dog is more resistant to cancer and infections, and because if they reproduce then that means more dogs going to the shelter.
So are you saying that humans should get their balls chopped off? or maybe sew up some vaginas? Becuase I'm telling you now that would cure tonnes of diseases if people couldn't have sex anymore... The problem with dog's case is that they have NO choice in the matter... Their balls are your property and you decide whether or not they get to keep em.... Thats slavery since the animal has no say in his/her well being..
All I am saying about is that animals don't deserve to be beaten and abused for entertainment. You can say all you want about animals being inferior but you're coming from an extremely biased viewpoint and i'm sure all animals feel they are superior. I'm looking at this objectively.
And all I'm saying is that Nobody should be glad that a human was killed or died.. doesn't matter how it happened. I dont personally agree with matadors and what ever.. But that is the way of life for some people... That is the world we live in... Get off your ethnocentric high horse... .... That is no reason to be glad that someone died...... You probably kill 100 ants every day ... Do you also deserve death?
You could have killed my relative... Will i be happy that you are killed? no... I might have some sense of relief.... but not gladness... not some kind of joy... my character is not so sadistic that i gain joy from another's death.
What's your Wu Name? Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader "Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.." <i>ME<i>
Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by AlexAmore Originally posted by methane47 Originally posted by AlexAmore Equal, as in biologically speaking. If you think fighting it out means showing who is better, then you maybe you should join Fight Club or something, and show who is the best person in the world. So I guess Mr. Universe is a better person than you because he can kill you methane?
Lol I can take mr universe.. He only has 300 pounds on me
I let her out and run her and she can go piss wherever she must.
Key word "let" You have full control... The dog is only allowed outside when YOU decide... hence you are treating your dog like a slave..
You forget that little key fact that I saved my dogs from abuse. By the time I get my dogs they aren't in any condition for survival as a wild animal. They weren't trained for that in their pup years by their mother, and they aren't bred for that. By your definition of "let", that means all human children of human parents are also slaves because their parents "let" them do activities.
They do it because the dog is more resistant to cancer and infections, and because if they reproduce then that means more dogs going to the shelter.
So are you saying that humans should get their balls chopped off? or maybe sew up some vaginas? Becuase I'm telling you now that would cure tonnes of diseases if people couldn't have sex anymore...
The problem with dog's case is that they have NO choice in the matter... Their balls are your property and you decide whether or not they get to keep em.... Thats slavery since the animal has no say in his/her well being.. Children of regular parents don't for the most part get any say in their well being. So you can say I do everything for my dog so that she may benefit from it. If I could set her free in a wild pack then I would, but she wouldn't be able to survive. Trust me she is very happy with her life now; slaves on the other hand aren't.
I was saying "slave" earlier in the context that they were being used for the abusive "entertainment" and profit of these "entertainers". These animals were slaving away in fear and anger for their masters profit.
There is a difference between slavery and parenthood.
All I am saying about is that animals don't deserve to be beaten and abused for entertainment. You can say all you want about animals being inferior but you're coming from an extremely biased viewpoint and i'm sure all animals feel they are superior. I'm looking at this objectively.
And all I'm saying is that Nobody should be glad that a human was killed or died.. doesn't matter how it happened. I dont personally agree with matadors and what ever.. But that is the way of life for some people... That is the world we live in... Get off your ethnocentric high horse... I would be ok with them if they didn't hurt anybody/animals. I disagree, for example, all the abuse that goes on to woman in the middle east because they are second class, just because it is tradition doesn't mean it is right and shouldn't be changed. Ask any woman there, and they will tell you they don't like it. Thankfully things are changing a little bit because some woman are in college, a lot of woman, however don't even get an education. .... That is no reason to be glad that someone died...... You probably kill 100 ants every day ... Do you also deserve death? I never said I was glad or anything STOP PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!!!
You could have killed my relative... Will i be happy that you are killed? no... I might have some sense of relief.... but not gladness... not some kind of joy... my character is not so sadistic that i gain joy from another's death. Read above... I have been standing up for the animals. I can kind of understand how you might interpret that into me putting down human life but that is not so. I said the man was a stupid idiot and that is true.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by Razorback Fighting a cow with a sword is so manly.
seriously...I can't believe that this is still in practice in Mexico, it should be outlawed...it's not even like there is any chance for something different to ever happen other than someone getting gored, they kill the bull no matter what happens, for once I would like to see a bull kill a guy and then they let it be...I mean, he won didn't he?
btw saying that this is a holdover from spanish history and the roman games...yeah that's all well and fine if you want to preserve your history, but do not do so in a way that requires you to torture and kill an animal for no damn good reason. The American South used to keep slaves, we don't do that anymore, should we start again in order to preserve out traditions? The aristocrats and politicians of the world used to wear powdered white wigs to show their status, should we go back to that? Slavery might be a bit more extreme than bull fighter but certainly the wearing of powdered wigs should be considered TAME in comparison to killing an animal for no reason and calling it a sport.
So it's official then, we want to preserve our history, everybody go out and buy a white powdered wig.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Since you are going to respond to me in that rediculous cut and paste, I will make it easier so you can just put a number and I don't have to read a bunch of red, green, and yellow typeset.
I never said I felt a need for death.
Superiority complex? lol. Hunting has nothing to do with superiority complex and that is why anti-hunters cannot comprehend, because they always assume it has to be some mental instability. Try this on, maybe you have an inferiority complex? Maybe you know that even if faced with hunger you couldn't kill an animal and it bugs you that someone else can and will for you.
Resorting to harming others is childish. Once again, something which is just meant as flamebait. Never once did I say I condoned harming others. In fact, I don't think you can find where I have said I even condone bull fighting, hunting over bait, and a few other things. In fact, my whole argument has been that Hohbein was condoning harming others in his OP.
Animals don't have moral standards, why compair them to us?
Humans do deserve more compassion than animals from their own kind.
I never said my compassion for animals was high on your moral spectrum. Unfortunately for you, I do not hold your moral and social values, so bashing me with them will get you nowhere.
As a final note Alex, you jumped in to the aid of Hohbein on a subject that spanned 2 threads. He has been deliberately showing footage in them of humans in danger or getting killed and praising it as something "good." I am merely stating that he is wrong to do so. In my opinion it would be wrong for me to post footage of hunters killing animals to praise their marksmanship or something. You don't see me ever linking OLN footage do you? You don't see any of my posts about hunting bragging about how great it is to kill an animal do you? I am sure I could if I wanted, but in the end, I still feel that it would be inappropriate for this forum. Not because the anti-hunting crowd would jump all over me, but because death is not to be taken as lightly as many on this forum seem to take it. I have seen and caused death in the animal and human world and it is a heavy subject that does not deserve to be flaunted over public forums for sake of upping post counts and creating 'hot topics."
Originally posted by Hohbein Following on from my 'Lion VS Hunter' thread, I'm now posting a couple of AWSOME video's from the world of bull fighting. I just hope this hurt.. I KNOW this did.. The guy in the first video died of his injuries (yay), the second guy just looks like he won't be reproducing (woot, no more bull fighters). Just had to share these videos, I know alot of you out there are like me and can't stand to see such unneccessary cruelty to animals. It's just so good when they get their own back so successfully.
You're a sick and sadistic human being - Get help.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Originally posted by daeandor Since you are going to respond to me in that rediculous cut and paste, I will make it easier so you can just put a number and I don't have to read a bunch of red, green, and yellow typeset.
I never said I felt a need for death. Hunting = death. Superiority complex? lol. Hunting has nothing to do with superiority complex and that is why anti-hunters cannot comprehend, because they always assume it has to be some mental instability. Try this on, maybe you have an inferiority complex? Maybe you know that even if faced with hunger you couldn't kill an animal and it bugs you that someone else can and will for you. If it came down to survival yes I would kill. Thankfully society does not need to eat animals anymore.
Resorting to harming others is childish. Once again, something which is just meant as flamebait. Never once did I say I condoned harming others. Hunting harms others. In fact, I don't think you can find where I have said I even condone bull fighting, hunting over bait, and a few other things. In fact, my whole argument has been that Hohbein was condoning harming others in his OP. The bull fighter was asking for it. When you enter a ring and flaunt the bull to come charging at you, that tells the bull that he wants to die. I'm sure if you were a prisoner (that will be killed at some point by them) and forced to do this type of entertainment then you would try and kill them at every chance.
Animals don't have moral standards, why compair them to us? Prove it. All the science regarding animals shows that they do have moral standards. Maybe you should watch more Discovery Channel. Humans do deserve more compassion than animals from their own kind. Even when they abuse animals for entertainment and profit? We should instead give more compassion to the profiteer instead of the prisoner? I never said my compassion for animals was high on your moral spectrum. Unfortunately for you, I do not hold your moral and social values, so bashing me with them will get you nowhere.As a final note Alex, you jumped in to the aid of Hohbein on a subject that spanned 2 threads. He has been deliberately showing footage in them of humans in danger or getting killed and praising it as something "good." LOL. I just went into the other thread for the first time and watched the vid and guess what I saw? A lion getting SHOT at (lion is the victim) and defending himself by trying to kill the attacker. It's exactly what I would do. Therefore I would classify it as "good", because when people do bad things such as take a life with no reason, there must be something we civilized humans call "consequence". I am merely stating that he is wrong to do so. Because you don't give a shit about the victim because the victim is of a different species, therefore we can pretend the species had nothing to live for and no feelings. In my opinion it would be wrong for me to post footage of hunters killing animals to praise their marksmanship or something. In my opinion yes. If you want to shoot guns for marksmenship or something then you can go to a shooting range and leave the animals alone. You don't see me ever linking OLN footage do you? You don't see any of my posts about hunting bragging about how great it is to kill an animal do you? Why is it great to take the life of another animal? What does it do for you? Is what the death does for you really worth it? I am sure I could if I wanted, but in the end, I still feel that it would be inappropriate for this forum. Not because the anti-hunting crowd would jump all over me, but because death is not to be taken as lightly as many on this forum seem to take it. I have seen and caused death in the animal and human world and it is a heavy subject that does not deserve to be flaunted over public forums for sake of upping post counts and creating 'hot topics." But you think the animal deaths are a good thing, right?
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by Hohbein Following on from my 'Lion VS Hunter' thread, I'm now posting a couple of AWSOME video's from the world of bull fighting. I just hope this hurt.. I KNOW this did.. The guy in the first video died of his injuries (yay), the second guy just looks like he won't be reproducing (woot, no more bull fighters). Just had to share these videos, I know alot of you out there are like me and can't stand to see such unneccessary cruelty to animals. It's just so good when they get their own back so successfully.
I still dont know what is more disgusting ...your comments on a guy dieing or a bullfight. Guess its a toss up.
I still dont know what is more disgusting ...your comments on a guy dieing or a bullfight. Guess its a toss up.
x2
Guess what, I'm spaniard and like most of my compatriots I don't like bullfighting (although the first video is from Mexico), but that's no reason for being happy because one person died. Moreover, as stated before bullfighting is an old tradition in Spain & SA and thus it should be maintained and respected if spaniards want it, or could you imagine all the americans stop eating turkey in thanksgiving day because europeans think that's a horrible tradition? (ohh poor turkeys, they didn't choose to be part of your dinner!! ¬¬). C'mon, it's so easy to complain about the neighbour while not looking to yourself in the mirror...
Originally posted by Dinivan Originally posted by Bama1267
I still dont know what is more disgusting ...your comments on a guy dieing or a bullfight. Guess its a toss up.
x2
Guess what, I'm spaniard and like most of my compatriots I don't like bullfighting (although the first video is from Mexico), but that's no reason for being happy because one person died. Moreover, as stated before bullfighting is an old tradition in Spain & SA and thus it should be maintained and respected if spaniards want it, or could you imagine all the americans stop eating turkey in thanksgiving day because europeans think that's a horrible tradition? (ohh poor turkeys, they didn't choose to be part of your dinner!! ¬¬). C'mon, it's so easy to complain about the neighbour while not looking to yourself in the mirror...
Tradition? How about all the women in the middle east that can't choose their own husbands, often don't get educated (keep'em dumb so they must depend on the husband), and treated like crap. Let's respect that tradition, even though women don't like it...I don't care! It's tradition!
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by AlexAmoreTradition? How about all the women in the middle east that can't choose their own husbands, often don't get educated (keep'em dumb so they must depend on the husband), and treated like crap. Let's respect that tradition, even though women don't like it...I don't care! It's tradition!
1st: I haven't been in the middle east, but even in the western documentaries we can't hide the fact that these womans are used to this situation and they may even like it. 2rd: cultures are different. I do think the european culture my antecessors have spread from Alaska to Patagonia, through Africa, Asia and Oceania, is superior to the rest, but we must accept that today we cannot go to the middle east and tell everyone to do our will, because if we do this what inhibits them for doing the same with us?, for example by forbidding alcohol in all the world. 3rd: I can only think about an exception to the second point. When traditions go against universal declaration of human rights, but this is not the case of turkeys or bulls.
Originally posted by daeandor hypocritical, pretending to have high moral standards but not practicing them
duplicitous, marked by duplicity, deceitful speech, having two meanings
not big words.
In the simplest terms possible:
You say you are compassionate in one thread, yet in this thread you cheer the death of a human. I read absolutely nothing "into" what you wrote. And I am not going to quote you for the 3rd time. I say that you are hypocritical and duplicitous because of those statements. You are just trying to save your moral rear end by deflecting the argument on my being "wrong" for being a hunter, when the fact still remains that you cannot be compassionate and cheer when a fellow human dies. Compassion, by use of the word, implies humane, which is sympathy toward animals AND humans, particularly those in distress. Distress implies great pain, which both the bull fighters and the bulls felt in your videos.
Bottom line, don't call me incompassionate and unstable when you have set certain personal limitations to your own compassion.
Right, just answer this. Does being compassionate mean being compassionate without boundaries? Does saying that I'm a compassionate person mean I have to have compassion for a child molester? A child rapist? A child murderer?
I can answer this for you, as your obviously too lazy to research anything yourself. The dictionary states this:
Compassionate:
1. Having or showing compassion: a compassionate person; a compassionate letter.
Does it state, anywhere, that compassionate means to show undying compassion for everything without boundaries? No, it certainly doesn't. It says that being compassionate is the act of showing compassion, which I DO do when I feel compassion is deserved. The bull fighter in this video deserved no compassion in my eyes, he took it upon himself to cause suffering on a huge scale over many years, therefore I see no reason to show him anything other than resent.
Comments
In my Hunter VS Lion thread, the ONLY thing I stated was that I CAN show compassion toward the other creatures that inhabbit this world with me (unlike the 'men' in the video's i've shown). By saying I CAN show compassion, somehow you are taking that to mean I am a peace loving christian passivist with no real idea of justice.
As I've already stated within this thread, I will only show compassion where compassion is due. Just as I wouldn't show a shread of compassion toward a murderer or rapist, I wouldn't show a shread of compassion toward somebody that took it upon themselves to cause a huge amount of suffering to another creature in the name of 'fun'.
Also, you say animals are 'subhuman', you are quite.. quite wrong, and this one sentence clearly demonstrates your utter lack of understanding when it comes to nature. Maybe that's why you feel it's fine to kill animals in the name of fun? While animals aren't the SAME as humans, to say they are 'below' us in any way is quite frankly disturbing and simply displays our worst trait as human beings, our ideas of supremecy above all else.
In my Hunter VS Lion thread, the ONLY thing I stated was that I CAN show compassion toward the other creatures that inhabbit this world with me (unlike the 'men' in the video's i've shown). By saying I CAN show compassion, somehow you are taking that to mean I am a peace loving christian passivist with no real idea of justice.
As I've already stated within this thread, I will only show compassion where compassion is due. Just as I wouldn't show a shread of compassion toward a murderer or rapist, I wouldn't show a shread of compassion toward somebody that took it upon themselves to cause a huge amount of suffering to another creature in the name of 'fun'.
Also, you say animals are 'subhuman', you are quite.. quite wrong, and this one sentence clearly demonstrates your utter lack of understanding when it comes to nature. Maybe that's why you feel it's fine to kill animals in the name of fun? While animals aren't the SAME as humans, to say they are 'below' us in any way is quite frankly disturbing and simply displays our worst trait as human beings, our ideas of supremecy above all else.
I agree, I agree, but in fact, we are above all creatures, BUT, this does not give us the right to do what these foolish spanish do, or these moronic hunters do, in fact, we are superior because we should be taking care of the nature, not destroy it, we have minds and the ability to build, protect, and safe-keep, not destroy stuff for our amusement, and this is where we are higher beings, because we stop bad things from happening if we are able to, not cause bad things to happen, this is called stupidity.
I second that.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
You and Alex assume too much. I have experienced both sides of this argument and can say that you are hypocritical and duplicitous for the sake of argument, choosing what is right and wrong to fit the situation so you can feel morally, and I guess intellectually, superior.
As far as the whole bullfighting thing, I never commented on that. Do not assume I condone it when I do not, just because I feel Hohbein's statements are irresponsible.
You are quite right, I don't think I could ever understand why somebody would kill an animal in the name of fun. And to be honest, I'm quite glad I can't understand it.
You and Alex assume too much. I have experienced both sides of this argument and can say that you are hypocritical and duplicitous for the sake of argument, choosing what is right and wrong to fit the situation so you can feel morally, and I guess intellectually, superior.
Yet another paragraph which fails to actually put forward an argument, but instead attempts to mock me using big words. If you can quote me 'EXACTLY' when I have contradicted myself (quote me), I'll quite happily agree. Throughout the course of this thread, and the Lion VS Hunter thread I haven't said anything to contradict myself. You are reading into what I have said too far, and attempting to fabricate comments that never existed.
As far as the whole bullfighting thing, I never commented on that. Do not assume I condone it when I do not, just because I feel Hohbein's statements are irresponsible.
So you are stating that my opinions are irresponsible? How interesting.
duplicitous, marked by duplicity, deceitful speech, having two meanings
not big words.
In the simplest terms possible:
You say you are compassionate in one thread, yet in this thread you cheer the death of a human. I read absolutely nothing "into" what you wrote. And I am not going to quote you for the 3rd time. I say that you are hypocritical and duplicitous because of those statements. You are just trying to save your moral rear end by deflecting the argument on my being "wrong" for being a hunter, when the fact still remains that you cannot be compassionate and cheer when a fellow human dies. Compassion, by use of the word, implies humane, which is sympathy toward animals AND humans, particularly those in distress. Distress implies great pain, which both the bull fighters and the bulls felt in your videos.
Bottom line, don't call me incompassionate and unstable when you have set certain personal limitations to your own compassion.
You respect animals, so you think it's great that a human being died due to messing with one?
You're worthless.
I'll quote you "Compassion, by use of the word, implies humane, which is sympathy toward animals AND humans, particularly those in distress."
When you shoot an animal then that animal is in distress, or if it is a mother then include the babies that she left behind. So do you have compassion for these animals, and if so how does your compassion fit in? Then like you and everyone else here I will then judge whether your compassion is up to par.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Lastly, it is not a question of whether "my compassion is up to par." You are just trying to deflect off Hohbein.
For me the main difference between between the Bull and the Bullfighter is that of the two, only the Bullfighter chooses to be there.
The Bull has no say in whether or not he is tortured, horrifically, over an extended period of time, eventually resulting in his cruel, slow and painful death.
The Bullfighter however can choose to end his barbaric actions at any time. At any time he could stop, look up at the crowd, throw down his manly sword and even manlier cape and say "this is madness and you are all insane". But he doesnt , he continues to brutalise a defenceless animal in order to entertain people who should just be locked up for being criminally demented and to increase his own opnion of himself.
That in a nutshell is why the animal deserves to live and the person deserves to die. I, unlike Hohbien, do not claim to be compassionate toward either people or animals however, I can easily recognise the actions of someone who knows better, yet still allows his base instincts to control his behaviour and a creature who has no say in what happening to it.
Thats the difference.
As for the argument that "its a tradition". Well so was throwing christians to lions.... but for some reason that went out of favour.... who can say why ?
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
You wouldn't believe me if I claimed to have compassion. You do not comprehend the concept of hunting and therefore cannot comprehend what goes through my mind.
You're right, I can't comprehend your need for death.
If you and Hohbien feel you are superior due to some higher moral and social standard you think you have, then so be it.
I didn't say that. I'm saying we should treat animals with respect instead of inferior beings/slaves. I don't know how that makes me sound like i'm superior. Killing animals for fun sounds like someone has a superiority complex.
You two are trying to use the old, I am better due to X, therefore my standard is the only one that is acceptable.
Yes I am above abusing/killing animals. I know how to have fun without having to resort to harming others; generally children grow out of that phase, but I guess not all...
I'm here to tell you that your standard is not the only one that is acceptable.
Is it acceptable for the animal? They seem very mad and scared.
I'm glad you two find it acceptable for a human to die if it means an animal won't be tortured. I do not.
Because you feel you are better than the animal, which negates any feelings that that the animal may feel....it simply doesn't matter to you.
Lastly, it is not a question of whether "my compassion is up to par." You are just trying to deflect off Hohbein.
You have been bashing him for not having compassion for the human, so I have been bashing for not having compassion for the animals. By your definition compassion means for both the animal and human. The difference is the human was the aggressor and the animal was the victim, the animal won, and we cheer for the victim. I think any sane person would cheer for the victims if they overcome adversity.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
And all I'm saying is that Nobody should be glad that a human was killed or died.. doesn't matter how it happened. I dont personally agree with matadors and what ever.. But that is the way of life for some people... That is the world we live in... Get off your ethnocentric high horse...
You could have killed my relative... Will i be happy that you are killed? no... I might have some sense of relief.... but not gladness... not some kind of joy... my character is not so sadistic that i gain joy from another's death.
What's your Wu Name?
Donovan --> Wu Name = Violent Knight
Methane47 --> Wu Name = Thunderous Leader
"Some people call me the walking plank, 'cuz any where you go... Death is right behind you.."
<i>ME<i>
And all I'm saying is that Nobody should be glad that a human was killed or died.. doesn't matter how it happened. I dont personally agree with matadors and what ever.. But that is the way of life for some people... That is the world we live in... Get off your ethnocentric high horse...
I would be ok with them if they didn't hurt anybody/animals. I disagree, for example, all the abuse that goes on to woman in the middle east because they are second class, just because it is tradition doesn't mean it is right and shouldn't be changed. Ask any woman there, and they will tell you they don't like it. Thankfully things are changing a little bit because some woman are in college, a lot of woman, however don't even get an education.
I never said I was glad or anything STOP PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!!!
You could have killed my relative... Will i be happy that you are killed? no... I might have some sense of relief.... but not gladness... not some kind of joy... my character is not so sadistic that i gain joy from another's death.
Read above...
I have been standing up for the animals. I can kind of understand how you might interpret that into me putting down human life but that is not so. I said the man was a stupid idiot and that is true.
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"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
seriously...I can't believe that this is still in practice in Mexico, it should be outlawed...it's not even like there is any chance for something different to ever happen other than someone getting gored, they kill the bull no matter what happens, for once I would like to see a bull kill a guy and then they let it be...I mean, he won didn't he?
btw saying that this is a holdover from spanish history and the roman games...yeah that's all well and fine if you want to preserve your history, but do not do so in a way that requires you to torture and kill an animal for no damn good reason. The American South used to keep slaves, we don't do that anymore, should we start again in order to preserve out traditions? The aristocrats and politicians of the world used to wear powdered white wigs to show their status, should we go back to that? Slavery might be a bit more extreme than bull fighter but certainly the wearing of powdered wigs should be considered TAME in comparison to killing an animal for no reason and calling it a sport.
So it's official then, we want to preserve our history, everybody go out and buy a white powdered wig.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Since you are going to respond to me in that rediculous cut and paste, I will make it easier so you can just put a number and I don't have to read a bunch of red, green, and yellow typeset.
- I never said I felt a need for death.
- Superiority complex? lol. Hunting has nothing to do with superiority complex and that is why anti-hunters cannot comprehend, because they always assume it has to be some mental instability. Try this on, maybe you have an inferiority complex? Maybe you know that even if faced with hunger you couldn't kill an animal and it bugs you that someone else can and will for you.
- Resorting to harming others is childish. Once again, something which is just meant as flamebait. Never once did I say I condoned harming others. In fact, I don't think you can find where I have said I even condone bull fighting, hunting over bait, and a few other things. In fact, my whole argument has been that Hohbein was condoning harming others in his OP.
- Animals don't have moral standards, why compair them to us?
- Humans do deserve more compassion than animals from their own kind.
- I never said my compassion for animals was high on your moral spectrum. Unfortunately for you, I do not hold your moral and social values, so bashing me with them will get you nowhere.
As a final note Alex, you jumped in to the aid of Hohbein on a subject that spanned 2 threads. He has been deliberately showing footage in them of humans in danger or getting killed and praising it as something "good." I am merely stating that he is wrong to do so. In my opinion it would be wrong for me to post footage of hunters killing animals to praise their marksmanship or something. You don't see me ever linking OLN footage do you? You don't see any of my posts about hunting bragging about how great it is to kill an animal do you? I am sure I could if I wanted, but in the end, I still feel that it would be inappropriate for this forum. Not because the anti-hunting crowd would jump all over me, but because death is not to be taken as lightly as many on this forum seem to take it. I have seen and caused death in the animal and human world and it is a heavy subject that does not deserve to be flaunted over public forums for sake of upping post counts and creating 'hot topics.""Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Guess what, I'm spaniard and like most of my compatriots I don't like bullfighting (although the first video is from Mexico), but that's no reason for being happy because one person died. Moreover, as stated before bullfighting is an old tradition in Spain & SA and thus it should be maintained and respected if spaniards want it, or could you imagine all the americans stop eating turkey in thanksgiving day because europeans think that's a horrible tradition? (ohh poor turkeys, they didn't choose to be part of your dinner!! ¬¬). C'mon, it's so easy to complain about the neighbour while not looking to yourself in the mirror...
Guess what, I'm spaniard and like most of my compatriots I don't like bullfighting (although the first video is from Mexico), but that's no reason for being happy because one person died. Moreover, as stated before bullfighting is an old tradition in Spain & SA and thus it should be maintained and respected if spaniards want it, or could you imagine all the americans stop eating turkey in thanksgiving day because europeans think that's a horrible tradition? (ohh poor turkeys, they didn't choose to be part of your dinner!! ¬¬). C'mon, it's so easy to complain about the neighbour while not looking to yourself in the mirror...
Tradition? How about all the women in the middle east that can't choose their own husbands, often don't get educated (keep'em dumb so they must depend on the husband), and treated like crap. Let's respect that tradition, even though women don't like it...I don't care! It's tradition!
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
2rd: cultures are different. I do think the european culture my antecessors have spread from Alaska to Patagonia, through Africa, Asia and Oceania, is superior to the rest, but we must accept that today we cannot go to the middle east and tell everyone to do our will, because if we do this what inhibits them for doing the same with us?, for example by forbidding alcohol in all the world.
3rd: I can only think about an exception to the second point. When traditions go against universal declaration of human rights, but this is not the case of turkeys or bulls.
Right, just answer this. Does being compassionate mean being compassionate without boundaries? Does saying that I'm a compassionate person mean I have to have compassion for a child molester? A child rapist? A child murderer?
I can answer this for you, as your obviously too lazy to research anything yourself. The dictionary states this:
Compassionate:
1. Having or showing compassion: a compassionate person; a compassionate letter.
Does it state, anywhere, that compassionate means to show undying compassion for everything without boundaries? No, it certainly doesn't. It says that being compassionate is the act of showing compassion, which I DO do when I feel compassion is deserved. The bull fighter in this video deserved no compassion in my eyes, he took it upon himself to cause suffering on a huge scale over many years, therefore I see no reason to show him anything other than resent.