You are keeping track of the bad things china does eh?
Regarding free speech and so on China. I agree with you. People should be allowed to say what they want. No doubt about that.
First of all you as a american shouldn't say anything about China supporting North Korea. USA must be one of the countries with the absolute worst record in supporting other countries. You supported basicly anything. And I really mean anything. Just as long as it was located on the opposite of communimn. Ofcourse China supports North Korea. Both are communistic. They keep together. Just as the capitalistic nations keep together.
Regarding the selling of wmd to terrorists I higly doubt it. It's rumors at best. North Korea maybe, but not China. China wouldn't have any economic interest of doing it. Not much of a political one either. They try to conquer the world with their companies and cheap labour (If they manage to keep the wages at the current level, they are going to be there soon). China and Russia support Iran having a peaceful atomic program. Wich Iran has every right to have. If USA has the right to have it, Iran has too basicly. One of the things that scare me the most in the world today is "Nuclear weapons + religion + politics" things except 1 (Untill proven) both Iran and USA have incommon. At this time there is no proof of Iran having a weapons program. And if they had plans about it they would still be miles away from a bomb. The last breakthrough they had was that they managed to enrich uran. But it was still miles away from weapons quality and amount produced was still tiny.
China is in the middle east for several reasons. 1. They have internal muslim groups that have kept at bay, pleased and kept from harbouring "enemies of China". 2. USA pisses of China with supporting/being in Taiwan. China pisses of USA with being in the middle east. The classic communismn vs capitalismn all over again. I don't think the oil prices have anything to do with China. Yes they have interest in oil. As any other nation in the world. But they still don't beat USA in it. Most of the oil price swing is directly connected to what USA does. What wars they start this week. Since that little leak in the white house not long ago, about the use of nuclear weapons against nuclear reactors in Iran. The oil price boomed. Just as with many other similar situations. Iraq war, Afghanistan and most of what happened after 9/11. Lately it's USA's actions that have the most impact on the oil prices. Quite bad for you I guess. Being the biggest oil consumer.
We can agree that China has some unacceptable policies regarding human rights, personal freedom and free speech. But for the rest try to keep yourself abit more to the facts. And very loose rumors aren't exactly the best source. Makes this thread look like one big "Bash China, bash Communists, bash those who think different than us" thread.
Here's the best way I can explain the situation. I'm not trying to convince anyone on my views but I'm hoping this will make you think twice before you pass whatever form of judgment you have on Microsoft and China.
First point, microsoft is a Western Corporation, it's going to do what it needs to do to make the biggest profit. That's the way we are in the US, that's the way it will always be. Everyone is out for themselves and their loved ones, but not the rest of the population. Even when they try to help others, it always comes back to what can improve your life. That is why we have insurance companies that rob us blind, and try to charge us the medical bills for the recently diseased. It's ugly to hear, hard to believe, but it's the truth and the sooner you accept it the better chanse we have at correcting it. So, yes in one view it sucks that Microsoft is playing censor, but if we have anyone to blame it's ourselves for teaching this sort of business. It is ourselves who rather live in equality in chains if it means security, rather than risk danger for freedom. Hence we let companies make choices for us, censor "bad" words or "bad" concepts rather than dealing with people's choices of words and growing up to realize the worlds as innocent and caring about our feelings as we thought.
Second point, China is it's own country right now, their choices are theirs to make, not ours, not anyone else's. I'm not in support for any form of communism, but on the other hand nor do I agree with our current form of democracy completely either. A government who demands back pay from injured soldiers clearly doesn't care about it's populous as much as it claims to. It's not willing to take in some debt for the better of an injured soldier who ended up that way doing what the government asked for in the first place. Basically saying, it's china's right to do as it pleases, just like it's our countries right to do as it pleases, because we sure as hell don't listen to what other countries suggest so why should we expect anything different?
Third point, about the cancer and disease and population control, people don't realize something, that we are not the masters of this planet or the masters of our absolute destiny. Eastern civilization has known this for thousands of years, Hence their religious teachings make peace with death, seeking a balance in what is and helping society. They look for becoming better people and helping their world, rather than seeking forgiveness and hardly trying to improve ourselves and forget to really learn from our mistakes. The World is designed to control the population, that is why there is disease and that is why each year we see more and more of it. We have better means to cure things, so the world produces newer ways to control its populous before we end up overpopulating (which in fact we already have, if we only were to have the exact amount of humans in the world we have now for a few hundred years, we'll end up only barely scraping by on survival and the numbers will have to thin down) ourselves extinction and in the process killing off other species (of coarse we are self centered creatures so what do we care if we kill off another species, be it plant or 'animal' ?). I'm all for freedom, as close to absolute freedom as we can reach. We can never reach the absolute simply because true freedom is the state of existence without the need to exist. To be without the need to maintain anything to continue existence. But I do state this, we have proven that we ourselves are not responsible in the concept of population control. We are selfish and rather fornicate ourselves a large family than to be mindful and have a child or two, or better yet adopt. This is the one area I have a conflict with. My desire for your freedom but the more apparent need for some form of population control. I'm not speaking of killing or taking away people's ability to enjoy themselves physically (you know what I'm talking about), but allowing them to have say one or two children of their own before they must adopt a child. Once they have adopted a child and still wish to create another, they may do so. The adoption serves two purposes, for one it gives a home and love to someone already here, and perhaps the family will no longer see the need to have an additional child since they'll find they love the adopted child just the same as their own. Sadly however it is near impossible to adopt a child in the U.S. as of now unless you're very wealthy. Yes of course special situations happen like twins, triplets, etc., which you cannot blame people for and therefore they shouldn't be punished. However if they start trying to reproduce like rabbits accidentally, they should highly consider sterilization ( so they can still do 'there thing' without harm), and/or be fined so they will think twice (the money then going to help those children still in need of a home, or in some poor condition).
Again the point I want to make is this: We are not mindful of ourselves, we do not see the bigger picture very often. I myself have to catch myself in this, for I claim not to be as mindful and wise as Buddha, Gandhi, or Morihei Ueshiba (if you actually know who the last person is, you get bonus points). I hope that someday our societies will find freedom without condemning other's choices, but at the same time learn to be mindful of our choices. If it can harm someone else or forces them into a situation where they should have a choice in, we should rethink it. However if it harms not, and we are not making the choice at the expense of other people's health (such as smoking in a closed area, yes YOU enjoy it and it is your RIGHT to smoke, but it is not your RIGHT to force someone else to intake the smoke you produce, therefore it is at the expense of their health at your choice, and this is not right), it is no one else's business.
06.09.12 From US News and World Report (Sept. 4, 2006) "In a case drawing international attention, a blind activist in chin a was arrested after documenting complaints of forced abortions -- just got a four-year prison sentence. Chen Guangcheng was convicted of 'damaging property' and 'organizing a mob to disturb traffic' --charges his backers say were fabricated in retaliation. The ~trial~ proceeded without his lawyers after three of them were detained on supposed theft charges.
Seperately, a Chineese researcher for the NY Times, jailed since 2004 on charges of revealing state secrets was cleared of those charges but still convicted of fraud and sentenced to three years in prison. 'The only thing Zhao Yan committed is journalism,' said NYTimes editor Bill Keller."
China (the People's Republic of China [Zhongguo prc vs Taiawan roc]) emerged after WW2 through communist Mao Zedong as an autocratic socialist system and imposes strict controls over everyday life that cost the lives of +120 Million 'pesants' (great leap forward and purges.) After 1978 his successor Deng Xiaoping focused on a market-oriented development and by 2000 output had quadrupled; improving living standards for much of the 1.314 billion population while expanding room for personal choice and maintaining tight political control.
At 9.6 million sq. KM it's total area is near equal to the US but with 4.4x the population. Life expectancy is about 72 yrs, AIDS is 0.1% of the population (aprox 900k,) and about 92% of the population is Han chinese the major religion is Daoist (Taoist.) Standard chinese is Mandrian (putonghua based on Beijing dialect.) 90% are literate in a single time zone.
23 provinces (sheng) 5 regions (zizhiqu) and 4 municipalities (shi [Beijing, Chongqing, Shanghai, Tianjin.]) Taiwan is considered the 23rd province. Indepencent since 221bc under Qin dynasty, 1 Jan 1912 the Manchu dynasty was replaced by a republic later on 1 Oct 1949 the People's Republic was established.
The pres & vp are elected by the National People's Congress for five year terms. The pres Hu Jintao nominates the premier (Wen Jia) who is confirmed by the NPC. The pres got 2937 votes out of 2983 from the NPC; the vp got 2578 votes. The NPC members are elected by sheng, zizhiqu and shi congresses to five year terms last Dec 2002, next election Feb 2008. The supreme people's court judges are also appointed by the NPC. There is one political party, the Chinese Communist Party (ie. facist is a single one-party system of government marked by a centralized dictatorship, stringent socioeconomic controls and often belligerent nationalism.)
China's economy during the last quarter century has changed from a centrally planned system that was largely closed to international trade to a more market-oriented economy that has a rapidly growing private sector and is a major player in the global economy. The restructuring of the economy and resulting efficiency gains have contributed to a more than tenfold increase in GDP since 1978. Measured on a purchasing power parity (PPP) basis, China in 2005 stood as the second-largest economy in the world after the US, although in per capita terms the country is still lower middle-income and 150 million Chinese fall below international poverty lines. (US has about 3.6M below poverty line.) 24% of the Chinese GDP is public debt in contrant the US has 65% GDP national debt. China has a national budget of $420 billion, US has $2,119 billion.
China exports US 21.4%, Hong Kong 16.3%, Japan 11%, South Korea 4.6%, Germany 4.3% ; imports Japan 15.2%, South Korea 11.6%, Taiwan 11.2%, US 7.4%, Germany 4.6%.
US exports Canada 23.4%, Mexico 13.3%, Japan 6.1%, China 4.6%, UK 4.3%; imports Canada 16.9%, China 15%, Mexico 10%, Japan 8.2%, Germany 5%.
About 8.2 yuan per US$.
All chineese have a 24 month compulsory military service obligation 18-22 years age. All officers are volunteers. China can draw on a force of 550 million manpower for military service (18-49 age) with a new annual addition of 25 million. Budgeting $81 billion. The US can draw by draft from 108 million, 54M for combat, but has a tough time fielding 160k combat ready troops. Budgeting $520 billion.
There are still about 300k vietnameese and 50k NK refugees in China. US has about 25 million mexican and 15 million central/south american refugees/illegals.
Originally posted by bhug 06.01.13 "Free-speech activists are up in arms after hearing the news that Microsoft, capitulating to Chinese officials, shut down the blog of a Chinese citizen critical of government policies. Microsoft runs a web portal with almost 5 million boggers tapping away. The site applies advanced filtration technology to censor certain words; offensive bloggers are fined." "China has a burgeoning online population at 87 million users, a number that will skyrocket to a billion before long. Microsoft isn't going to impose Western standards of freedom of speech on a government that can provide access to that market." link Meanwhile the population is being completely destroyed by non-enforced polution standards... guess if you have a population of 4 Billion pesants what does it matter if half die from cancer and starvation over 20 years !! It is not like they can vote nor revolt (talk about gun control) to replace dictators that actually care about the well being of those pesants... op cid n korea.
Thats why communism must be eradicated, its a swindle to take all of your rights and then slaughter all dissent in nothing more than modern dungeons.
Zerogenum - MixMatched BH Carbineer Template of the Gods, Kettemoor PRE CU SWG.
Originally posted by dekron Most seem to forget that the Chinese "peasants" outnumber government officials no less than 1000:1. If they find life so bad, they can always revolt.
Shoot yourself, you ignorant American.
Well, that remark was stupid, but replying to his mark so basely only makes you look worse.
Why couldn't they have a peasant revolt? We're not living in the 17th century anymore: Pitch forks and small arms will not fare well against weapons with blast radii of hundreds of meters. The Chinese government controls and regulates arms like any other: Do you think that we could even have a revolt here in America if we wanted to? The small arms they do allow us to have (in some states) are trivial compared to the military's arsenal.
... Just imagine a person in a jet vs. a small village full of destitute farmers with bows, arrows and glock 9mms (giving them the benefit of the doubt here); it wouldn't be a pretty sight.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Originally posted by dekron Most seem to forget that the Chinese "peasants" outnumber government officials no less than 1000:1. If they find life so bad, they can always revolt.
Shoot yourself, you ignorant American.
Look to the left, right above dekron's icon. What does that say? Oh, thats right, "MMORPG.com Staff." Insulting a mod... moron.
China is in the middle east for the same reason everyone else is (Except some of the Arabs). Oil.
It's not just America that wants more.
The Chinese government lies to its' people about Tianeman square? Given that my own government lied to me about Saddam Hussein having WMD on the launch pad 45 minutes away from zapping Britain (and then killed a load of random people), it's not something I find overly hard to believe.
I also come from a country with no freedom of speech and government censorship. I don't have a problem with it. In fact I prefer it.
Historically, most revolutions start with the government controlled armies. Military Coup is very common form of revolution. 10,000 police men with guns against 100,000 peasent farmers could just as easily turn into 110,000 armed revolutionaries. It doesn't take a very strong wind to blow down a house of cards.
to be honest , i am one of the people coming right from the contry u all have been talking about . i have reviewed all the threads here with a sense of feeling of wanting to say a bit right now . as a chinese from the ralatively wealthy region of china , i felt things have been changed dramatically in recently years epecilly in economy perspective . i am the generation of borning after 80' when reform and opening up policy have been carried on in china for a while so naturally life for us is not so tough as our ancestor . we do have access to internet . we could enjou MMORPGs as u . foods are not the main goal in my region for some people . kids here are enjoying the stuffs that u could be avilable to get . life here is really not like what u think that no food , no freedom , everything is poor and ugly and not mention to high tech . however , despite all these , i do think u are indeed right in some points . some basic rights for us are simply ommitted in our contry and with the progress of capitalitism here , values here are lagging greatly behind the economical growth .
may be we are from different places , so with different views and understanding on things . however , some rumors in this thread are so wrong saying we are backing terrorists and selling WMD and etc. i cannt image why do u have this thought in mind and what do u basic this on ? even though chinese govenment are not so favorable to u or even to us chinese , it really doesnt mean that average chinese are not kind or great . in fact . most people in china especially from some wealthy region are very nice .
also since u have been talking the violation of human rights and democracy by chinese govenment to their people and from my understanding i know its the case in some degree . however , i really wondered , in your opinion , as a america , how does chinese govenment make this . please give me some examples to let me see in a fair way whether u are right or not a and i will be back later and try to give my views on that .
sorry for my poor english , thank u indeed and any info would be much appriciated .
Well for one the chinese government likes to put down any peasents complainign with extreme force. There have been many incidents of it getting out of hand in recent times where people got killed. I also noticed how you equate the better off chinese people with being nice. Do you consider the poor chinese as maybe disgruntled because the small wealthy class is literally living off their labor ? While you may like lviing in China, since you are well off, maybe you can't understand how the large majority of agrcultural chinese population have no no ownership rights on the land they cultivate ? Chinese companies are throwing the chinese poor off their lands to build roads, using communist laws, while making money through capitalism.
It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
Originally posted by williamwang to be honest , i am one of the people coming right from the contry u all have been talking about . i have reviewed all the threads here with a sense of feeling of wanting to say a bit right now . as a chinese from the ralatively wealthy region of china , i felt things have been changed dramatically in recently years epecilly in economy perspective . i am the generation of borning after 80' when reform and opening up policy have been carried on in china for a while so naturally life for us is not so tough as our ancestor . we do have access to internet . we could enjou MMORPGs as u . foods are not the main goal in my region for some people . kids here are enjoying the stuffs that u could be avilable to get . life here is really not like what u think that no food , no freedom , everything is poor and ugly and not mention to high tech . however , despite all these , i do think u are indeed right in some points . some basic rights for us are simply ommitted in our contry and with the progress of capitalitism here , values here are lagging greatly behind the economical growth .
may be we are from different places , so with different views and understanding on things . however , some rumors in this thread are so wrong saying we are backing terrorists and selling WMD and etc. i cannt image why do u have this thought in mind and what do u basic this on ? even though chinese govenment are not so favorable to u or even to us chinese , it really doesnt mean that average chinese are not kind or great . in fact . most people in china especially from some wealthy region are very nice .
also since u have been talking the violation of human rights and democracy by chinese govenment to their people and from my understanding i know its the case in some degree . however , i really wondered , in your opinion , as a america , how does chinese govenment make this . please give me some examples to let me see in a fair way whether u are right or not a and i will be back later and try to give my views on that .
sorry for my poor english , thank u indeed and any info would be much appriciated .
Eat your heart out, Baff.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Originally posted by fizzle322 Honestly I could give a crap about free speech.
Why is it so hard for people to stfu and conform to their society?
well first off, It would be "i couldn't give a crap about free speach" (it doesn't make sense the other way)
And I hope you are joking. Free speach is the best thing someone could possible have. Why should people conform to their society? What kind of society is it if you cannot say what you like? Think about it, if you didn't like the government, you wouldn't be allowed to talk bad about it, and would risk jail time or other punishments. You'd just become a government controlled minion.
Originally posted by Xexima Originally posted by fizzle322 Honestly I could give a crap about free speech.
Why is it so hard for people to stfu and conform to their society?
well first off, It would be "i couldn't give a crap about free speach" (it doesn't make sense the other way)
And I hope you are joking. Free speach is the best thing someone could possible have. Why should people conform to their society? What kind of society is it if you cannot say what you like? Think about it, if you didn't like the government, you wouldn't be allowed to talk bad about it, and would risk jail time or other punishments. You'd just become a government controlled minion.
Actually it does work both ways...He is stating that free speech (IHO) is worth a pile of sh#$.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
I find it amazing that everyone thinks it is so easy for a population in a totalitarian country to rise up and throw out the oppressors. Actually, very few revolts against a dictator have succeeded without foreign intervention. Firstoff, the totalitarian regime employs secret police, whose duty includes identification and elimination of potential opposition leadership, preventing any organized opposition. Thus, any potential revolt is confined to a village, city, or province, contained, and eliminated. During the standoff in Tienamen Square the Chinese government utilized local troops up until the point in which they cracked down. The military forces that ended Tienamen Square standoff came from outside Beijing, I believe from the Mongolian Military District. If you get the opportunity to watch the video again, you will note one in which the garrison of Beijing is marching out of the city wearing blue armbands just prior to the new troops marching in. Blue armbands is not standard Chinese uniform, something happened here that was unusual, possible a Chinese military commander opposing the policy? We really don't know, other than somethiong happened, then these troops returned to their posts in Beijing, and the Mongolian Military District forces entered Beijing and forcefully suppressed the Tienamen Square "revolt". Considering that the Beijing garrison was subjected to heavy propaganda by the students urging the garrison not to suppress their friends, brothers, sister, cousins, etc, this was the only way the Chinese government could resolve the situation.
The fall of the Shah of Iran is an exception to this rule of thumb. Here, the Shah employed secret police, but still the fundamentalist muslems were able to organize, rise up, and overthrow his regime. In this situation I suggest that the leadership of the revolution came from within the mosques, the Shiite clerics. Perhaps the Shah was restricted in allowing his secret police to arrest, interrogate, and execute the clerics? Anyway, this same protection does not extend to the average Chinese peasant.
Originally posted by //\//\oo Originally posted by williamwang to be honest , i am one of the people coming right from the contry u all have been talking about . i have reviewed all the threads here with a sense of feeling of wanting to say a bit right now . as a chinese from the ralatively wealthy region of china , i felt things have been changed dramatically in recently years epecilly in economy perspective . i am the generation of borning after 80' when reform and opening up policy have been carried on in china for a while so naturally life for us is not so tough as our ancestor . we do have access to internet . we could enjou MMORPGs as u . foods are not the main goal in my region for some people . kids here are enjoying the stuffs that u could be avilable to get . life here is really not like what u think that no food , no freedom , everything is poor and ugly and not mention to high tech . however , despite all these , i do think u are indeed right in some points . some basic rights for us are simply ommitted in our contry and with the progress of capitalitism here , values here are lagging greatly behind the economical growth .
may be we are from different places , so with different views and understanding on things . however , some rumors in this thread are so wrong saying we are backing terrorists and selling WMD and etc. i cannt image why do u have this thought in mind and what do u basic this on ? even though chinese govenment are not so favorable to u or even to us chinese , it really doesnt mean that average chinese are not kind or great . in fact . most people in china especially from some wealthy region are very nice .
also since u have been talking the violation of human rights and democracy by chinese govenment to their people and from my understanding i know its the case in some degree . however , i really wondered , in your opinion , as a america , how does chinese govenment make this . please give me some examples to let me see in a fair way whether u are right or not a and i will be back later and try to give my views on that .
sorry for my poor english , thank u indeed and any info would be much appriciated .
Eat your heart out, Baff.
Go on then, tell him all your racist spew. Lets see if he agrees with it.
Originally posted by olddaddy I find it amazing that everyone thinks it is so easy for a population in a totalitarian country to rise up and throw out the oppressors. Actually, very few revolts against a dictator have succeeded without foreign intervention. Firstoff, the totalitarian regime employs secret police, whose duty includes identification and elimination of potential opposition leadership, preventing any organized opposition. Thus, any potential revolt is confined to a village, city, or province, contained, and eliminated. During the standoff in Tienamen Square the Chinese government utilized local troops up until the point in which they cracked down. The military forces that ended Tienamen Square standoff came from outside Beijing, I believe from the Mongolian Military District. If you get the opportunity to watch the video again, you will note one in which the garrison of Beijing is marching out of the city wearing blue armbands just prior to the new troops marching in. Blue armbands is not standard Chinese uniform, something happened here that was unusual, possible a Chinese military commander opposing the policy? We really don't know, other than somethiong happened, then these troops returned to their posts in Beijing, and the Mongolian Military District forces entered Beijing and forcefully suppressed the Tienamen Square "revolt". Considering that the Beijing garrison was subjected to heavy propaganda by the students urging the garrison not to suppress their friends, brothers, sister, cousins, etc, this was the only way the Chinese government could resolve the situation. The fall of the Shah of Iran is an exception to this rule of thumb. Here, the Shah employed secret police, but still the fundamentalist muslems were able to organize, rise up, and overthrow his regime. In this situation I suggest that the leadership of the revolution came from within the mosques, the Shiite clerics. Perhaps the Shah was restricted in allowing his secret police to arrest, interrogate, and execute the clerics? Anyway, this same protection does not extend to the average Chinese peasant.
First off, All governments employ secret police.
Secondly off, foreign intervention in revolts is normal. That doesn't necessarily mean that foreign intervention is the key to it's success, only that foreign powers seek influence with potential national leaders.
The American Revolution, The British Revolution, The French Revolution the Russian Revolution.....all succeeded. While the American and Russian at least had foreign assistance, I wouldn't want to go as far as saying their success depended on it.
Whatever soldiers the Chinese used to suppress the students were all garrisoned close by. No one was flown in specially, they didn't have time.
Racist? He agrees that the Chinese argument has violated human rights on numerous occasions, which is what I had stated and you denied...Please, give me a quote where I was ever racist.
As I posted earlier: I am not against the Chinese people, but their government; it's clear disregard for civil liberties and human rights is endless.
In your own extremely twisted socialistic manner you equate a government to the people it governs: The gentleman that just posted, who incidentally is from China, is not indicative of his government.
Whenever people speak about rednecks and how they make vapid generalizations, you come to mind..
You're just a sore loser.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Which in my country is considered racism of a criminal nature. Might not be racist where you come from, but here it's a crime. We call it, "Incitement To Racial Intolerance".
I didn't see where he agreed China had repeatedly violated Human Rights, neither have I ever denied to you that they have. You exaggerate. Clearly he accepts that his government has flaws and perhaps isn't best loved by it's people. I can say the same about my own. As you can about yours.
I read where he asked you to explain to him how you thought they had done so, so that he could refute or correlate your opinion when he returns.
.
My point to you remains the same, why do you feel they have done so anymore than any other nation. Given your own countries human rights record, I would have thought you might be a little more tolerant. Why do you single out China? Why not each and every other nation/government on the planet?
For that matter, why only dwell on the bad things the Chinese government do? Why can't you show people what it does better than anyone else? Given all the great achievements it has made and all the good it does in the world, why are you even talking about it's crimes at all?
The reason, you discriminate against it. You think other people should to and are attempting to convince them. In Britian, that kind of behaviour gets you locked up. Free speech is a privilage you wouldn't qualify for. Even if every word you say is true, we would still imprison you rather than listen to it. It's racism. you have taken it out of context of the events, and out of perspective of the ways in which other world societies such as your own behave.
Secondly off, foreign intervention in revolts is normal. That doesn't necessarily mean that foreign intervention is the key to it's success, only that foreign powers seek influence with potential national leaders.
The American Revolution, The British Revolution, The French Revolution the Russian Revolution.....all succeeded. While the American and Russian at least had foreign assistance, I wouldn't want to go as far as saying their success depended on it.
Whatever soldiers the Chinese used to suppress the students were all garrisoned close by. No one was flown in specially, they didn't have time.
All governments utilize police, they do not necessarily utilize secret police. Name me the secret police force utilized by the United States please? And do be realistic, that is, answer without conspiracy theories.
Personally, I wouldn't give the American Revolution at rat's chance in hell if not for the French fleet at Yorktown, and French credit and financing of war material. The (US) colonies were not ruled by a totalitarian regime either. Not sure which British revolution you are talking about, Cromwell? The French revolution was not against a totalitarian regime. Louis did not use letters of cachet, and the Bastille was not utilized as a political prison under his rule. The French revolution was caused by England entering the industrial age before France, undercutting French craftsmen's wages/prices, creating massive unemployment and labor unrest. The Russian revolution was not against a totalitarian regime, it was caused by reassignment of the Russian navy to the front lines. Regardless, none of these countires had avaliable the survelliance technology that a modern government can utilize to spy on it's population. And none of these revolutions had foreign involvement from the get go.
My statement, which may not have been made clear to you, is that no revolution can succeed against a totalitarian state without foreign intervention/inviolvement. As the topic is modern day China, by that I mean modern states, not those utilizing technology of 100-200 years or more ago.
This fact was recognized by the Soviet Union, which utilized Cuba as the base for foeign intervention/ involvement. Nicaragua succeeded due to foreign assistance to the Sandanistas. Without that intervention, Somoza would have crushed the resistance. The Israelis maintain a blockage on the Palestinians because without outside assistance all those Palastinians do not stand a bat's chance in hell of a successful uprising.
And no, go back and check your history on Tienaman Square. During the standoff the local garrison was co-opted by the students. Military units were brought into Beijing to suppress the "revolt". The revolt was DEFINATELY not suppressed by the local garrison. The troops were brought in by truck, the Chinese air force played no part in either the revolt, or the suppression, they remained uncommitted. Besides, at that time China lacked airlift capacity to move large quantities of troops. It is only in the post Vietnam - China conflict that China has developed mechanized infantry, airlift capacity, and is now developing the sealift capacity to hop the Straits of Taiwan.
Originally posted by baff Which in my country is considered racism of a criminal nature. Might not be racist where you come from, but here it's a crime. We call it, "Incitement To Racial Intolerance". I didn't see where he agreed China had repeatedly violated Human Rights, neither have I ever denied to you that they have. You exaggerate. Clearly he accepts that his government has flaws and perhaps isn't best loved by it's people. I can say the same about my own. As you can about yours. I read where he asked you to explain to him how you thought they had done so, so that he could refute or correlate your opinion when he returns. . My point to you remains the same, why do you feel they have done so anymore than any other nation. Given your own countries human rights record, I would have thought you might be a little more tolerant. Why do you single out China? Why not each and every other nation/government on the planet? For that matter, why only dwell on the bad things the Chinese government do? Why can't you show people what it does better than anyone else? Given all the great achievements it has made and all the good it does in the world, why are you even talking about it's crimes at all? The reason, you discriminate against it. You think other people should to and are attempting to convince them. In Britian, that kind of behaviour gets you locked up. Free speech is a privilage you wouldn't qualify for. Even if every word you say is true, we would still imprison you rather than listen to it. It's racism. you have taken it out of context of the events, and out of perspective of the ways in which other world societies such as your own behave.
I don't understand why people are not allowed to speak their mind in a lot of other countries. It is a basic human instinct that people get killed and imprisoned for. Stupid and intolerant is what it is. No, it isn't racism baff, racism is hating another race, for whatever reason, not hating their government.
If he hated just governments, that would be hatred of governments, but he doesn't he hates a specific countries government. It's prejudiced by race. And it's hatred. He doesn't make similar cases about his own government, in fact he doesn't make similar cases about any other government at all.
The reason we don't allow people to spread hate is because we wish to live in a multicultural and harmonious society. Similarly we don't allow people to tell everyone who to make carbombs and letterbombs or remote control detonators, because we don't want any car bombs or letter bombs or remote control detonators being made round here. It's just basic common sense.
Despite having all these nukes and aircraft carriers and helicopter gunships. Our strongest power is soft power. The power to live well and be nice to people. To respect other ways of life and find the good in them so that they might look for the same in us. TO spread love, not hate. Freedom of speech may be O.k. where you live, but it's no good here.
I'm a teacher. In class, if everyones opinion was equal and if everybodies voice was allowed to be heard, students wouldn't learn much except how to swear and flick bogeys. Not everybodies opinion is equal, and not all opinions should be heard. Some are detrimental to society.
Tienaman Square took place over numerous days. The Chinese government negotiated with the students for, I'm guessing, a week, while students decorated the local garrison's vehicles, and gave the troops, flowers. There is a famous picture of a lone Chinese student walking in front of a T62 (Soviet identification) tank, stopping the tank from foreward movement in the square. That is a very famous picture from the period, and the tank did not run over the student, or in a way take any action against the student. The Chinese government initially hoped to resolve the situation peacefully, with minor concessions. They did not intend to kill off their intelligensia from the get go. Those were not peasants in Tienaman Square.
I am assuming you are not from the United States, I am. To clarify the role of the United States Secret Service, they protect the life of the President of the United States 24/7, they know many personal things about presidents and their families, and they pride themselves in keeping those things a secret. It is considered a disgrace to the Secret Service to divulge any information about those they protect, to, say, the press. They also investigate counterfeiting of US currency, but their duties do NOT include surveillance of US citizens, either foreign or domestic. In short, they are a small group of highly trained, professional bodyguards.
Originally posted by baff If he hated just governments, that would be hatred of governments, but he doesn't he hates a specific countries government. It's prejudiced by race. And it's hatred. He doesn't make similar cases about his own government, in fact he doesn't make similar cases about any other government at all. He doesn't hate the people of the country so it isn't racism. He hates their government. Who cares if he doesn't hate all the governments of the sort, but just theirs. It still isn't racism.
The reason we don't allow people to spread hate is because we wish to live in a multicultural and harmonious society. Despite having all these nukes and aircraft carriers and helicopter gunships. Our strongest power is soft power. The power to live well and be nice to people. To respect other ways of life and find the good in them so that they might look for the same in us. TO spread love, not hate. Freedom of speech may be O.k. where you live, but it's no good here. I'm a teacher. In class, if everyones opinion was equal and if everybodies voice was allowed to be heard, students wouldn't learn much except how to swear and flick bogeys. Not everybodies opinion is equal, and not all opinions should be heard. Some are detrimental to society.
So you ignore it, not jail them. And of course not everyone's opinion is equal, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to voice it. Words hurt no one. People need to just live with what other people think. I bet you guys still have violence and hatred, that is in human nature too.
And in school that is a different story, people are there to learn, so that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to talk in class, people need to respect the rights of others who want to learn.
Comments
You are keeping track of the bad things china does eh?
Regarding free speech and so on China. I agree with you. People should be allowed to say what they want. No doubt about that.
First of all you as a american shouldn't say anything about China supporting North Korea. USA must be one of the countries with the absolute worst record in supporting other countries. You supported basicly anything. And I really mean anything. Just as long as it was located on the opposite of communimn. Ofcourse China supports North Korea. Both are communistic. They keep together. Just as the capitalistic nations keep together.
Regarding the selling of wmd to terrorists I higly doubt it. It's rumors at best. North Korea maybe, but not China. China wouldn't have any economic interest of doing it. Not much of a political one either. They try to conquer the world with their companies and cheap labour (If they manage to keep the wages at the current level, they are going to be there soon). China and Russia support Iran having a peaceful atomic program. Wich Iran has every right to have. If USA has the right to have it, Iran has too basicly. One of the things that scare me the most in the world today is "Nuclear weapons + religion + politics" things except 1 (Untill proven) both Iran and USA have incommon. At this time there is no proof of Iran having a weapons program. And if they had plans about it they would still be miles away from a bomb. The last breakthrough they had was that they managed to enrich uran. But it was still miles away from weapons quality and amount produced was still tiny.
China is in the middle east for several reasons. 1. They have internal muslim groups that have kept at bay, pleased and kept from harbouring "enemies of China". 2. USA pisses of China with supporting/being in Taiwan. China pisses of USA with being in the middle east. The classic communismn vs capitalismn all over again. I don't think the oil prices have anything to do with China. Yes they have interest in oil. As any other nation in the world. But they still don't beat USA in it. Most of the oil price swing is directly connected to what USA does. What wars they start this week. Since that little leak in the white house not long ago, about the use of nuclear weapons against nuclear reactors in Iran. The oil price boomed. Just as with many other similar situations. Iraq war, Afghanistan and most of what happened after 9/11. Lately it's USA's actions that have the most impact on the oil prices. Quite bad for you I guess. Being the biggest oil consumer.
We can agree that China has some unacceptable policies regarding human rights, personal freedom and free speech. But for the rest try to keep yourself abit more to the facts. And very loose rumors aren't exactly the best source. Makes this thread look like one big "Bash China, bash Communists, bash those who think different than us" thread.
First point, microsoft is a Western Corporation, it's going to do what it needs to do to make the biggest profit. That's the way we are in the US, that's the way it will always be. Everyone is out for themselves and their loved ones, but not the rest of the population. Even when they try to help others, it always comes back to what can improve your life. That is why we have insurance companies that rob us blind, and try to charge us the medical bills for the recently diseased. It's ugly to hear, hard to believe, but it's the truth and the sooner you accept it the better chanse we have at correcting it. So, yes in one view it sucks that Microsoft is playing censor, but if we have anyone to blame it's ourselves for teaching this sort of business. It is ourselves who rather live in equality in chains if it means security, rather than risk danger for freedom. Hence we let companies make choices for us, censor "bad" words or "bad" concepts rather than dealing with people's choices of words and growing up to realize the worlds as innocent and caring about our feelings as we thought.
Second point, China is it's own country right now, their choices are theirs to make, not ours, not anyone else's. I'm not in support for any form of communism, but on the other hand nor do I agree with our current form of democracy completely either. A government who demands back pay from injured soldiers clearly doesn't care about it's populous as much as it claims to. It's not willing to take in some debt for the better of an injured soldier who ended up that way doing what the government asked for in the first place. Basically saying, it's china's right to do as it pleases, just like it's our countries right to do as it pleases, because we sure as hell don't listen to what other countries suggest so why should we expect anything different?
Third point, about the cancer and disease and population control, people don't realize something, that we are not the masters of this planet or the masters of our absolute destiny. Eastern civilization has known this for thousands of years, Hence their religious teachings make peace with death, seeking a balance in what is and helping society. They look for becoming better people and helping their world, rather than seeking forgiveness and hardly trying to improve ourselves and forget to really learn from our mistakes.
The World is designed to control the population, that is why there is disease and that is why each year we see more and more of it. We have better means to cure things, so the world produces newer ways to control its populous before we end up overpopulating (which in fact we already have, if we only were to have the exact amount of humans in the world we have now for a few hundred years, we'll end up only barely scraping by on survival and the numbers will have to thin down) ourselves extinction and in the process killing off other species (of coarse we are self centered creatures so what do we care if we kill off another species, be it plant or 'animal' ?).
I'm all for freedom, as close to absolute freedom as we can reach. We can never reach the absolute simply because true freedom is the state of existence without the need to exist. To be without the need to maintain anything to continue existence. But I do state this, we have proven that we ourselves are not responsible in the concept of population control. We are selfish and rather fornicate ourselves a large family than to be mindful and have a child or two, or better yet adopt. This is the one area I have a conflict with. My desire for your freedom but the more apparent need for some form of population control. I'm not speaking of killing or taking away people's ability to enjoy themselves physically (you know what I'm talking about), but allowing them to have say one or two children of their own before they must adopt a child. Once they have adopted a child and still wish to create another, they may do so. The adoption serves two purposes, for one it gives a home and love to someone already here, and perhaps the family will no longer see the need to have an additional child since they'll find they love the adopted child just the same as their own. Sadly however it is near impossible to adopt a child in the U.S. as of now unless you're very wealthy. Yes of course special situations happen like twins, triplets, etc., which you cannot blame people for and therefore they shouldn't be punished. However if they start trying to reproduce like rabbits accidentally, they should highly consider sterilization ( so they can still do 'there thing' without harm), and/or be fined so they will think twice (the money then going to help those children still in need of a home, or in some poor condition).
Again the point I want to make is this: We are not mindful of ourselves, we do not see the bigger picture very often. I myself have to catch myself in this, for I claim not to be as mindful and wise as Buddha, Gandhi, or Morihei Ueshiba (if you actually know who the last person is, you get bonus points). I hope that someday our societies will find freedom without condemning other's choices, but at the same time learn to be mindful of our choices. If it can harm someone else or forces them into a situation where they should have a choice in, we should rethink it. However if it harms not, and we are not making the choice at the expense of other people's health (such as smoking in a closed area, yes YOU enjoy it and it is your RIGHT to smoke, but it is not your RIGHT to force someone else to intake the smoke you produce, therefore it is at the expense of their health at your choice, and this is not right), it is no one else's business.
Top Ten Most Misused Words/Phrases in MMO Industry...
06.09.12
From US News and World Report (Sept. 4, 2006)
"In a case drawing international attention, a blind activist in chin a was arrested after documenting complaints of forced abortions -- just got a four-year prison sentence. Chen Guangcheng was convicted of 'damaging property' and 'organizing a mob to disturb traffic' --charges his backers say were fabricated in retaliation. The ~trial~ proceeded without his lawyers after three of them were detained on supposed theft charges.
Seperately, a Chineese researcher for the NY Times, jailed since 2004 on charges of revealing state secrets was cleared of those charges but still convicted of fraud and sentenced to three years in prison. 'The only thing Zhao Yan committed is journalism,' said NYTimes editor Bill Keller."
China (the People's Republic of China [Zhongguo prc vs Taiawan roc]) emerged after WW2 through communist Mao Zedong as an autocratic socialist system and imposes strict controls over everyday life that cost the lives of +120 Million 'pesants' (great leap forward and purges.) After 1978 his successor Deng Xiaoping focused on a market-oriented development and by 2000 output had quadrupled; improving living standards for much of the 1.314 billion population while expanding room for personal choice and maintaining tight political control.
At 9.6 million sq. KM it's total area is near equal to the US but with 4.4x the population. Life expectancy is about 72 yrs, AIDS is 0.1% of the population (aprox 900k,) and about 92% of the population is Han chinese the major religion is Daoist (Taoist.) Standard chinese is Mandrian (putonghua based on Beijing dialect.) 90% are literate in a single time zone.
23 provinces (sheng) 5 regions (zizhiqu) and 4 municipalities (shi [Beijing, Chongqing, Shanghai, Tianjin.]) Taiwan is considered the 23rd province. Indepencent since 221bc under Qin dynasty, 1 Jan 1912 the Manchu dynasty was replaced by a republic later on 1 Oct 1949 the People's Republic was established.
The pres & vp are elected by the National People's Congress for five year terms. The pres Hu Jintao nominates the premier (Wen Jia) who is confirmed by the NPC. The pres got 2937 votes out of 2983 from the NPC; the vp got 2578 votes. The NPC members are elected by sheng, zizhiqu and shi congresses to five year terms last Dec 2002, next election Feb 2008. The supreme people's court judges are also appointed by the NPC. There is one political party, the Chinese Communist Party (ie. facist is a single one-party system of government marked by a centralized dictatorship, stringent socioeconomic controls and often belligerent nationalism.)
China's economy during the last quarter century has changed from a centrally planned system that was largely closed to international trade to a more market-oriented economy that has a rapidly growing private sector and is a major player in the global economy. The restructuring of the economy and resulting efficiency gains have contributed to a more than tenfold increase in GDP since 1978. Measured on a purchasing power parity (PPP) basis, China in 2005 stood as the second-largest economy in the world after the US, although in per capita terms the country is still lower middle-income and 150 million Chinese fall below international poverty lines. (US has about 3.6M below poverty line.) 24% of the Chinese GDP is public debt in contrant the US has 65% GDP national debt. China has a national budget of $420 billion, US has $2,119 billion.
China exports US 21.4%, Hong Kong 16.3%, Japan 11%, South Korea 4.6%, Germany 4.3% ;
imports Japan 15.2%, South Korea 11.6%, Taiwan 11.2%, US 7.4%, Germany 4.6%.
US exports Canada 23.4%, Mexico 13.3%, Japan 6.1%, China 4.6%, UK 4.3%;
imports Canada 16.9%, China 15%, Mexico 10%, Japan 8.2%, Germany 5%.
About 8.2 yuan per US$.
All chineese have a 24 month compulsory military service obligation 18-22 years age. All officers are volunteers. China can draw on a force of 550 million manpower for military service (18-49 age) with a new annual addition of 25 million. Budgeting $81 billion.
The US can draw by draft from 108 million, 54M for combat, but has a tough time fielding 160k combat ready troops. Budgeting $520 billion.
There are still about 300k vietnameese and 50k NK refugees in China. US has about 25 million mexican and 15 million central/south american refugees/illegals.
Zerogenum - MixMatched BH Carbineer Template of the Gods, Kettemoor PRE CU SWG.
Shoot yourself, you ignorant American.
Well, that remark was stupid, but replying to his mark so basely only makes you look worse.
Why couldn't they have a peasant revolt? We're not living in the 17th century anymore: Pitch forks and small arms will not fare well against weapons with blast radii of hundreds of meters. The Chinese government controls and regulates arms like any other: Do you think that we could even have a revolt here in America if we wanted to? The small arms they do allow us to have (in some states) are trivial compared to the military's arsenal.
... Just imagine a person in a jet vs. a small village full of destitute farmers with bows, arrows and glock 9mms (giving them the benefit of the doubt here); it wouldn't be a pretty sight.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Shoot yourself, you ignorant American.
Look to the left, right above dekron's icon. What does that say? Oh, thats right, "MMORPG.com Staff." Insulting a mod... moron.
China is in the middle east for the same reason everyone else is (Except some of the Arabs). Oil.
It's not just America that wants more.
The Chinese government lies to its' people about Tianeman square? Given that my own government lied to me about Saddam Hussein having WMD on the launch pad 45 minutes away from zapping Britain (and then killed a load of random people), it's not something I find overly hard to believe.
I also come from a country with no freedom of speech and government censorship. I don't have a problem with it. In fact I prefer it.
Historically, most revolutions start with the government controlled armies. Military Coup is very common form of revolution. 10,000 police men with guns against 100,000 peasent farmers could just as easily turn into 110,000 armed revolutionaries. It doesn't take a very strong wind to blow down a house of cards.
may be we are from different places , so with different views and understanding on things . however , some rumors in this thread are so wrong saying we are backing terrorists and selling WMD and etc. i cannt image why do u have this thought in mind and what do u basic this on ? even though chinese govenment are not so favorable to u or even to us chinese , it really doesnt mean that average chinese are not kind or great . in fact . most people in china especially from some wealthy region are very nice .
also since u have been talking the violation of human rights and democracy by chinese govenment to their people and from my understanding i know its the case in some degree . however , i really wondered , in your opinion , as a america , how does chinese govenment make this . please give me some examples to let me see in a fair way whether u are right or not a and i will be back later and try to give my views on that .
sorry for my poor english , thank u indeed and any info would be much appriciated .
It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
Why is it so hard for people to stfu and conform to their society?
may be we are from different places , so with different views and understanding on things . however , some rumors in this thread are so wrong saying we are backing terrorists and selling WMD and etc. i cannt image why do u have this thought in mind and what do u basic this on ? even though chinese govenment are not so favorable to u or even to us chinese , it really doesnt mean that average chinese are not kind or great . in fact . most people in china especially from some wealthy region are very nice .
also since u have been talking the violation of human rights and democracy by chinese govenment to their people and from my understanding i know its the case in some degree . however , i really wondered , in your opinion , as a america , how does chinese govenment make this . please give me some examples to let me see in a fair way whether u are right or not a and i will be back later and try to give my views on that .
sorry for my poor english , thank u indeed and any info would be much appriciated .
Eat your heart out, Baff.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
And I hope you are joking. Free speach is the best thing someone could possible have. Why should people conform to their society? What kind of society is it if you cannot say what you like? Think about it, if you didn't like the government, you wouldn't be allowed to talk bad about it, and would risk jail time or other punishments. You'd just become a government controlled minion.
And I hope you are joking. Free speach is the best thing someone could possible have. Why should people conform to their society? What kind of society is it if you cannot say what you like? Think about it, if you didn't like the government, you wouldn't be allowed to talk bad about it, and would risk jail time or other punishments. You'd just become a government controlled minion.
Actually it does work both ways...He is stating that free speech (IHO) is worth a pile of sh#$.
I shoot for the curve... anything above that is gravy.
I find it amazing that everyone thinks it is so easy for a population in a totalitarian country to rise up and throw out the oppressors. Actually, very few revolts against a dictator have succeeded without foreign intervention. Firstoff, the totalitarian regime employs secret police, whose duty includes identification and elimination of potential opposition leadership, preventing any organized opposition. Thus, any potential revolt is confined to a village, city, or province, contained, and eliminated. During the standoff in Tienamen Square the Chinese government utilized local troops up until the point in which they cracked down. The military forces that ended Tienamen Square standoff came from outside Beijing, I believe from the Mongolian Military District. If you get the opportunity to watch the video again, you will note one in which the garrison of Beijing is marching out of the city wearing blue armbands just prior to the new troops marching in. Blue armbands is not standard Chinese uniform, something happened here that was unusual, possible a Chinese military commander opposing the policy? We really don't know, other than somethiong happened, then these troops returned to their posts in Beijing, and the Mongolian Military District forces entered Beijing and forcefully suppressed the Tienamen Square "revolt". Considering that the Beijing garrison was subjected to heavy propaganda by the students urging the garrison not to suppress their friends, brothers, sister, cousins, etc, this was the only way the Chinese government could resolve the situation.
The fall of the Shah of Iran is an exception to this rule of thumb. Here, the Shah employed secret police, but still the fundamentalist muslems were able to organize, rise up, and overthrow his regime. In this situation I suggest that the leadership of the revolution came from within the mosques, the Shiite clerics. Perhaps the Shah was restricted in allowing his secret police to arrest, interrogate, and execute the clerics? Anyway, this same protection does not extend to the average Chinese peasant.
may be we are from different places , so with different views and understanding on things . however , some rumors in this thread are so wrong saying we are backing terrorists and selling WMD and etc. i cannt image why do u have this thought in mind and what do u basic this on ? even though chinese govenment are not so favorable to u or even to us chinese , it really doesnt mean that average chinese are not kind or great . in fact . most people in china especially from some wealthy region are very nice .
also since u have been talking the violation of human rights and democracy by chinese govenment to their people and from my understanding i know its the case in some degree . however , i really wondered , in your opinion , as a america , how does chinese govenment make this . please give me some examples to let me see in a fair way whether u are right or not a and i will be back later and try to give my views on that .
sorry for my poor english , thank u indeed and any info would be much appriciated .
Eat your heart out, Baff.
Go on then, tell him all your racist spew. Lets see if he agrees with it.
First off, All governments employ secret police.
Secondly off, foreign intervention in revolts is normal. That doesn't necessarily mean that foreign intervention is the key to it's success, only that foreign powers seek influence with potential national leaders.
The American Revolution, The British Revolution, The French Revolution the Russian Revolution.....all succeeded. While the American and Russian at least had foreign assistance, I wouldn't want to go as far as saying their success depended on it.
Whatever soldiers the Chinese used to suppress the students were all garrisoned close by. No one was flown in specially, they didn't have time.
Racist? He agrees that the Chinese argument has violated human rights on numerous occasions, which is what I had stated and you denied...Please, give me a quote where I was ever racist.
As I posted earlier: I am not against the Chinese people, but their government; it's clear disregard for civil liberties and human rights is endless.
In your own extremely twisted socialistic manner you equate a government to the people it governs: The gentleman that just posted, who incidentally is from China, is not indicative of his government.
Whenever people speak about rednecks and how they make vapid generalizations, you come to mind..
You're just a sore loser.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Which in my country is considered racism of a criminal nature. Might not be racist where you come from, but here it's a crime. We call it, "Incitement To Racial Intolerance".
I didn't see where he agreed China had repeatedly violated Human Rights, neither have I ever denied to you that they have. You exaggerate. Clearly he accepts that his government has flaws and perhaps isn't best loved by it's people. I can say the same about my own. As you can about yours.
I read where he asked you to explain to him how you thought they had done so, so that he could refute or correlate your opinion when he returns.
.
My point to you remains the same, why do you feel they have done so anymore than any other nation. Given your own countries human rights record, I would have thought you might be a little more tolerant. Why do you single out China? Why not each and every other nation/government on the planet?
For that matter, why only dwell on the bad things the Chinese government do? Why can't you show people what it does better than anyone else? Given all the great achievements it has made and all the good it does in the world, why are you even talking about it's crimes at all?
The reason, you discriminate against it. You think other people should to and are attempting to convince them. In Britian, that kind of behaviour gets you locked up. Free speech is a privilage you wouldn't qualify for. Even if every word you say is true, we would still imprison you rather than listen to it. It's racism. you have taken it out of context of the events, and out of perspective of the ways in which other world societies such as your own behave.
First off, All governments employ secret police.
Secondly off, foreign intervention in revolts is normal. That doesn't necessarily mean that foreign intervention is the key to it's success, only that foreign powers seek influence with potential national leaders.
The American Revolution, The British Revolution, The French Revolution the Russian Revolution.....all succeeded. While the American and Russian at least had foreign assistance, I wouldn't want to go as far as saying their success depended on it.
Whatever soldiers the Chinese used to suppress the students were all garrisoned close by. No one was flown in specially, they didn't have time.
All governments utilize police, they do not necessarily utilize secret police. Name me the secret police force utilized by the United States please? And do be realistic, that is, answer without conspiracy theories.
Personally, I wouldn't give the American Revolution at rat's chance in hell if not for the French fleet at Yorktown, and French credit and financing of war material. The (US) colonies were not ruled by a totalitarian regime either. Not sure which British revolution you are talking about, Cromwell? The French revolution was not against a totalitarian regime. Louis did not use letters of cachet, and the Bastille was not utilized as a political prison under his rule. The French revolution was caused by England entering the industrial age before France, undercutting French craftsmen's wages/prices, creating massive unemployment and labor unrest. The Russian revolution was not against a totalitarian regime, it was caused by reassignment of the Russian navy to the front lines. Regardless, none of these countires had avaliable the survelliance technology that a modern government can utilize to spy on it's population. And none of these revolutions had foreign involvement from the get go.
My statement, which may not have been made clear to you, is that no revolution can succeed against a totalitarian state without foreign intervention/inviolvement. As the topic is modern day China, by that I mean modern states, not those utilizing technology of 100-200 years or more ago.
This fact was recognized by the Soviet Union, which utilized Cuba as the base for foeign intervention/ involvement. Nicaragua succeeded due to foreign assistance to the Sandanistas. Without that intervention, Somoza would have crushed the resistance. The Israelis maintain a blockage on the Palestinians because without outside assistance all those Palastinians do not stand a bat's chance in hell of a successful uprising.
And no, go back and check your history on Tienaman Square. During the standoff the local garrison was co-opted by the students. Military units were brought into Beijing to suppress the "revolt". The revolt was DEFINATELY not suppressed by the local garrison. The troops were brought in by truck, the Chinese air force played no part in either the revolt, or the suppression, they remained uncommitted. Besides, at that time China lacked airlift capacity to move large quantities of troops. It is only in the post Vietnam - China conflict that China has developed mechanized infantry, airlift capacity, and is now developing the sealift capacity to hop the Straits of Taiwan.
The Secret Service.
Maybe you have others, I'm sorry I'm not from the U.S. On stargate they also have the NIA and the CIA, in England we have MI5 and MI6.
As I understand it, the Tienamen Square incident all took place within about a 12 hour period. The couldn't have come very far.
If he hated just governments, that would be hatred of governments, but he doesn't he hates a specific countries government. It's prejudiced by race. And it's hatred. He doesn't make similar cases about his own government, in fact he doesn't make similar cases about any other government at all.
The reason we don't allow people to spread hate is because we wish to live in a multicultural and harmonious society. Similarly we don't allow people to tell everyone who to make carbombs and letterbombs or remote control detonators, because we don't want any car bombs or letter bombs or remote control detonators being made round here. It's just basic common sense.
Despite having all these nukes and aircraft carriers and helicopter gunships. Our strongest power is soft power. The power to live well and be nice to people. To respect other ways of life and find the good in them so that they might look for the same in us. TO spread love, not hate. Freedom of speech may be O.k. where you live, but it's no good here.
I'm a teacher. In class, if everyones opinion was equal and if everybodies voice was allowed to be heard, students wouldn't learn much except how to swear and flick bogeys. Not everybodies opinion is equal, and not all opinions should be heard. Some are detrimental to society.
Tienaman Square took place over numerous days. The Chinese government negotiated with the students for, I'm guessing, a week, while students decorated the local garrison's vehicles, and gave the troops, flowers. There is a famous picture of a lone Chinese student walking in front of a T62 (Soviet identification) tank, stopping the tank from foreward movement in the square. That is a very famous picture from the period, and the tank did not run over the student, or in a way take any action against the student. The Chinese government initially hoped to resolve the situation peacefully, with minor concessions. They did not intend to kill off their intelligensia from the get go. Those were not peasants in Tienaman Square.
I am assuming you are not from the United States, I am. To clarify the role of the United States Secret Service, they protect the life of the President of the United States 24/7, they know many personal things about presidents and their families, and they pride themselves in keeping those things a secret. It is considered a disgrace to the Secret Service to divulge any information about those they protect, to, say, the press. They also investigate counterfeiting of US currency, but their duties do NOT include surveillance of US citizens, either foreign or domestic. In short, they are a small group of highly trained, professional bodyguards.
think. I bet you guys still have violence and hatred, that is in human
nature too.
And in school that is a different story, people are there to learn, so that doesn't mean that they should be allowed to talk in class, people need to respect the rights of others who want to learn.