Originally posted by Aethios I was trying to show that by removing the exploits AFTER they had been used, instead of before, they actually allowed these farmers to make money FASTER than they were. I don't like paying that much gold for an item regardless, but I certainly don't want to pay it to a Chinese farmer who illegally obtained the item, and is overpricing it now because it's no longer available. If it's from an average player, and that's still the standard price (without hacks and exploits and gold farming) then so be it.
See, this is typical for 'we hate gold buying' crowd posts. How do you know "the standard price (without hacks and exploits and gold farming)?" If you don't know whatever the standard price is, how exactly did you determine that the item was being overpriced? Or by 'overpriced' do you just mean 'a higher price than an arbitrary number Aethios decided is the correct price'?
Originally posted by Xpheyel I agree that it is cheating, by definition. We're playing a game. You're breaking the rules. In the process of doing so, you're encouraging gold farming. Which means there is some guy hording a portion of the game non-stop because 2 or 3 people or a macro that are playing him continously. You're hurting your own gameplay and mine. I doubt there is a silver bullet to fix it anymore than there is a silver bullet to defeat accounts being cracked (globally, including people who use weak passwords). Intrusive solutions like questions just disrupt gameplay.
I agree, it does affect gameplay in a bad way. There is no solution to that issue in existing gameplay concepts. I believe that the only way it can be eliminated is by publishing "proper" economy system where people doesnt have to be reach in order to enjoy the game. More than that players doesnt have to "work / grind" in the game to produce some income. Besides gold grind issues seems to be the problem of mainly WoW / EQ type games where most valuable items are looted and not produced by player crafters.
Change economy and... bingo! no more gold farming which means all those whinings must be addressed to developers who done lousy job. This is a gameplay problem which makes people desire to buy game gold for RL money in order to get most out of the game they paying for.
...Purpose of crafters in WoW is still a mystery for me lol... Looks like they only did it just to get it ticked off - yes we have crafting in the game. Watta waste...
Because I hate everyone and I have no desire to even talk to you in the game. I am a solo player. But in order to progress in these looser MMORPGs of today, you have to be rich. You are forced to be in your servers largest guild to Raid for loots or group. I have no desire to group. I don't want to know any of you.
So, I buy gold so that I can get the equipment that only drops on Raids or Group instances. I take that gear, and gank you as you are questing, farming, or whatever. I appreciate all your hard work in organizing and running your Raids/Groups to get my gear. Now I repay you by farming you.
Why don't I craft to make money? you ask....
Because that means I would have to interact with you in pricing and materials. I do not want to talk to you. I only want to gank you while questing. I also do not want to sit around for hours on end making fake weapons to sell. Thats a waist of presious gank time.
If game makers would make ALL GEAR avilable to ALL PLAYERS....... I would not buy gold
First of all the this post. stfu and 2nd lest say someone gets in the game and a friend gives them gold/items then what ur graph can make a new player hate the game. so noway anything like this would work
I have done it in the past, but that was before I realized how gold farmers really mess with the game. I wish I hadnt bought the gold and I will never do it again. Promise.
As long there are games, people will have the interest in buying things they can't afford. They will never stop buying/selling in-game gold for real money, unfortunately. We can't stop these harrassement with our opinions, I think we can't do anything against it at all. cept not supporting those gold selling websites.
Originally posted by sven101 As long there are games, people will have the interest in buying things they can't afford. They will never stop buying/selling in-game gold for real money, unfortunately. We can't stop these harrassement with our opinions, I think we can't do anything against it at all. cept not supporting those gold selling websites.
Actually you are wrong. Whilst it may be impossible to get rid of all gold buying, it can most definitely be greatly reduced, using a combination of both changes to MMO's to make gold buying less profitable, and by persuading other players that gold buying is not good for the future of their game.
I believe the poster above you (Itzit) looks like a very good example of how gold buying can be reduced (one small step at a time).
Originally posted by Nerf09 A graph public to everyone that examines your character: (total value of items + your character level) over hours played. If any loser buys videogame items or gold with real world items then a large spike in the graph will occur, then we, who are not loers, could mock them and ignore them in game for being such losers. As it stands now you can't tell the losers from the non-losers, unless they admit, "I bought this much gold today."
Loser?
1. Guy works 40 hours a week, has a life and a girlfriend, buys gold
or
2. Guy has no life, jerks in front of his pc and farms day and night for gold
1. Guy works 40 hours a week, has a life and a girlfriend, buys gold
or
2. Guy has no life, jerks in front of his pc and farms day and night for gold
Who's the real loser...? :x
When most people reach adultood they realise life is about making sacrifices. You have a kid - well maybe you need to drive a little more carefully. You have a wife/girlfriend - well maybe they deserve a little of your time.
Alot of children are all "Me! Me! Me! I want everything". Most adults have learnt a little restraint. They realise that if they only go to football practice once a week then they don't deserve to play in the top division of the local league, and that reading a book by stephen hawking doesn't give them the right to heckle during a lecture by a professor of physics.
So it's perfectly fine for someone to decide to spend time away from MMOs to do other stuff. However expecting to do that and have the rewards (gold, experience, whatever) for investing a great deal of time is a very selfish atttude.
So in answer to your question - both your examples are losers.
Originally posted by Gameloading "Losers"? grow up. you don't have to agree with gold buying, but calling people losers for doing it is just sad.
The OP is right. They were just being too blunt heheh. Games are suppose to be played for fun, as an escape from the world. They are a challenge. Someone who uses real life money to get ahead in game is a "loser" aka they do not heve the patience, the analytical thinking, to over come in game challenges.
I see soo many beggers in mmorpgs. In AO a very famous high level player even made a well known thread on the AO forums specifically telling how to make it in the game without begging and/or using real life money to buy in game money.
In WoW it is insanely easy to make in game money. Yet many still beg. If they beg in the world chat channels (the LFG channel aka looking for group) the majority of WoW players will crush them with comments like "learn to play the game" , "stop being lazy" etc.....
I think the OP of this thread has a NICE idea. Very original too! Congrats to the OP for not only bringing up a problem, but also trying to come up with a solution.
Last item... many, many, players do not realize that many of these gold selling sites are directly and/or indirectly OWNED by the game companies! Talk about making free money! Does everyone realize how insane it is to spend real life money for in game money that is created by a game maker in litterally a few seconds? Costing them nothing to creatw?
Lazy losers is right, although it is very blunt.
============================================
The OP's idea helps in other ways too. Ebay characters typically do not know how to play their characters as well. This idea would help filter them out, and make it less likely the group wipes. Making the other group members waste their time.
Originally posted by Gameloading "Losers"? grow up. you don't have to agree with gold buying, but calling people losers for doing it is just sad.
I think the people who waste their own time grinding are losers. The people who buy their stuff are clearly using their time more efficiently and therefore smarter. Haha jokes on you devs you just designed games that encourage customers to give tons of money to companies other than your own!
Some people who speak out against gold farming would:
1) Have no problem selling their accounts on ebay after they were done with the game
2) Take advantage of game hacks and cheats such as radar, a money cheat and LOS exploits
3) Have driven faster than the posted speed limit
4) Have overstated their contributions to the Salvation army on their income tax forms
5) Really like to buy some gold or items but,
Many people who speak out against gold farming:
1) Can't afford to buy it.
Like the pornography industry, noone admits to looking at online porn..yet the business makes billions...
Gold buying is a huge business, rarely admitted to... willing to bet as many as 25-35% of the MMORPG game players out there today have bought gold or items at some time. (oh sure..but not you!!!) No, thats not a supposition... been playing these games forever..and had many guild mates buy/sell accounts, gold, items and freely admit to it
They tend to be working professionals who have more money than free time, and not losers by any sense of the definition. They aren't looking for anyone's approval, nor do they care what other's think... they are in the game to have fun...and grinding 1000 gold for an epic mount or whatever just doesn't cut it.
Rail against it all you want... its not going away anytime soon... why?
Cause game developers know one thing... these working professionals wouldn't play these games if they couldn't be competitive..and they tend to pay for subscriptions longer and in greater quantity than the rest of the gamers..which is why they dont really go to war against the buyers....
and they know the people who don't buy gold..rarely quit over the gold buying issue...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Most of the people who speak out against gold buying seem to be older more experienced players.
I oppose buying gold and have never brought or sold any MMO items. Last week I paid off £5,000 of my mortgage ahead of schedule. The idea I couldn't if I choose spend £100 on a little gold is laughable.
No-one in the world likes to believe someone else is more moral than they are. Like the previous poster, so many people try to drag others down to their level by slander and back-biting. Unfortunately it's not try. You aren't the greatest person on the planet.
Originally posted by Antipathy No-one in the world likes to believe someone else is more moral than they are.
That's part of the problem with these discussions; some people consider it a moral issue, but they don't really explain why. Breaking an uneforced clause in an EULA doesn't qualify as a moral issue in my book, since the EULA is between the player and provider (if the provider doesn't care, then the clause doesn't matter). Even if I thought that it does, you'd need to explain why you complain about gold-buying specifically and not other commonly broken provisions of the EULA, like account sharing. It also doesn't really hold water when the ban-gold-buying crowd seems to have the exact same outrage for places where it's completely within the EULA, like Sony's servers for it or EVE in general.
Blame the devs for making large parts of their games boring and not worthwhile. Don't blame the who want to avoid that and the people who profit from a situation they did not create.
Why do people let the Devs off? They created this system. Of course people will use money to surmount hurdles no one likes. What kind of ivory tower shut-in wouldn't eralzie that?
Does anyone think "grind" usually has a good connotation? Stop making the games a job and maybe people won't pay others to do the job.
Do you really think this is different than me having JIffy Lube change my oil?
That is a job I don't want to do, so I pay someone else.
That's part of the problem with these discussions; some people consider it a moral issue, but they don't really explain why. Breaking an uneforced clause in an EULA doesn't qualify as a moral issue in my book, since the EULA is between the player and provider (if the provider doesn't care, then the clause doesn't matter). Even if I thought that it does, you'd need to explain why you complain about gold-buying specifically and not other commonly broken provisions of the EULA, like account sharing. It also doesn't really hold water when the ban-gold-buying crowd seems to have the exact same outrage for places where it's completely within the EULA, like Sony's servers for it or EVE in general.
I'm not one of those who cares as much as some others about EULA's - software publishers have enough power as it is, without giving them the ability to write their own virtual laws.
Instead, I view gold buying as immoral because it creates pressure on other players to grind to keep up with your newly acquired wealth. Expectations are raised regarding the average level of equipment that is expected in game.
Several people have complained that gold buying is the solution to too much grind. It isn't. It's the cause of the problem. If there was a larger population in games that didn't have access to so much gold etc then other players and developers would be forced to spend more time catering to them (either by developing more low end content or by lowering expectations for grouping).
I don't want to play a tank and be told "you're equipment is crap - you're much harder to heal than X" when X is a gold buyer. People who only think of gold buying in terms of themselves seem to me to be very selfish. They don't consider how it affects other players and raises the ante for everyone. And I am joined by several of the worlds major religions in believing that selfishness is wrong.
Somehow I also have a strong sense that success in a game should in some sense be earned. I wouldn't expect to pay for a goal in football because I wasn't fit. I wouldn't want to buy a rating in chess even if I didn't have time to practice. And I wouldn't want to pick up balls on a pool table and put them in the pockets when my opponent wasn't looking even if I am too drunk to play. So why should MMO's be any different?
Originally posted by Antipathy Instead, I view gold buying as immoral because it creates pressure on other players to grind to keep up with your newly acquired wealth. Expectations are raised regarding the average level of equipment that is expected in game.
So do you also view grinding more than someone else as immoral since it does the exact same thing?
Several people have complained that gold buying is the solution to too much grind. It isn't. It's the cause of the problem. If there was a larger population in games that didn't have access to so much gold etc then other players and developers would be forced to spend more time catering to them (either by developing more low end content or by lowering expectations for grouping).
No, it's doesn't make sense to say that gold-buying the cause of the problem. Developers of the game are the ones who decide to make the game center on mindless repition of challengeless fights, people buying gold are just skipping the 'keep repeating this challengeless fight' part. Devs could, for example, make the items people are buying drop from a fight that's set so that it can't be trivialized (level and number caps), make gold and/or items drop from things people enjoy instead of from grinds, and otherwise not require grinding. And when most people complain about 'grinding', they talk about XP grind first, which isn't even saleable - clearly grinding is not caused by gold buying.
I don't want to play a tank and be told "you're equipment is crap - you're much harder to heal than X" when X is a gold buyer.
I don't want to play a tank and be told "you're equipment is crap - you're much harder to heal than X" when X is a no-life loser who grinds forever, or worse who treats the game as a job and joins a raid guild. That doesn't make it a moral issue, it's just a preference in gaming.
People who only think of gold buying in terms of themselves seem to me to be very selfish. They don't consider how it affects other players and raises the ante for everyone. And I am joined by several of the worlds major religions in believing that selfishness is wrong.
Playing a computer game is inherently selfish, I am not aware of a single world religion that says that playing an MMO for large blocks of time is significantly different from playing an MMO for smaller blocks of time but spending some money on it. Invoking major world religions is just absurd here.
Somehow I also have a strong sense that success in a game should in some sense be earned. I wouldn't expect to pay for a goal in football because I wasn't fit. I wouldn't want to buy a rating in chess even if I didn't have time to practice. And I wouldn't want to pick up balls on a pool table and put them in the pockets when my opponent wasn't looking even if I am too drunk to play. So why should MMO's be any different?
I don't consider repeating challengless fights for hours on end 'earning' anything. I wouldn't expect to get a free goal in football because I threw the football at a wall for 50 hours the previous week either, but that's how grinding works. I wouldn't want to acquire a rating in chess by playing against people who offer no challenge, but that's how grinding works. And the pool example is just straight cheating at the game, it's a bad analogy - we're not talking about someone using hacks. Anything that gold farmers can farm requires only mindless repitition of non-challenging fights, not any real accomplishment.
Originally posted by Pantastic Originally posted by Antipathy Instead, I view gold buying as immoral because it creates pressure on other players to grind to keep up with your newly acquired wealth. Expectations are raised regarding the average level of equipment that is expected in game.
So do you also view grinding more than someone else as immoral since it does the exact same thing?
Several people have complained that gold buying is the solution to too much grind. It isn't. It's the cause of the problem. If there was a larger population in games that didn't have access to so much gold etc then other players and developers would be forced to spend more time catering to them (either by developing more low end content or by lowering expectations for grouping).
No, it's doesn't make sense to say that gold-buying the cause of the problem. Developers of the game are the ones who decide to make the game center on mindless repition of challengeless fights, people buying gold are just skipping the 'keep repeating this challengeless fight' part. Devs could, for example, make the items people are buying drop from a fight that's set so that it can't be trivialized (level and number caps), make gold and/or items drop from things people enjoy instead of from grinds, and otherwise not require grinding. And when most people complain about 'grinding', they talk about XP grind first, which isn't even saleable - clearly grinding is not caused by gold buying.
I don't want to play a tank and be told "you're equipment is crap - you're much harder to heal than X" when X is a gold buyer.
I don't want to play a tank and be told "you're equipment is crap - you're much harder to heal than X" when X is a no-life loser who grinds forever, or worse who treats the game as a job and joins a raid guild. That doesn't make it a moral issue, it's just a preference in gaming.
People who only think of gold buying in terms of themselves seem to me to be very selfish. They don't consider how it affects other players and raises the ante for everyone. And I am joined by several of the worlds major religions in believing that selfishness is wrong.
Playing a computer game is inherently selfish, I am not aware of a single world religion that says that playing an MMO for large blocks of time is significantly different from playing an MMO for smaller blocks of time but spending some money on it. Invoking major world religions is just absurd here.
Somehow I also have a strong sense that success in a game should in some sense be earned. I wouldn't expect to pay for a goal in football because I wasn't fit. I wouldn't want to buy a rating in chess even if I didn't have time to practice. And I wouldn't want to pick up balls on a pool table and put them in the pockets when my opponent wasn't looking even if I am too drunk to play. So why should MMO's be any different?
I don't consider repeating challengless fights for hours on end 'earning' anything. I wouldn't expect to get a free goal in football because I threw the football at a wall for 50 hours the previous week either, but that's how grinding works. I wouldn't want to acquire a rating in chess by playing against people who offer no challenge, but that's how grinding works. And the pool example is just straight cheating at the game, it's a bad analogy - we're not talking about someone using hacks. Anything that gold farmers can farm requires only mindless repitition of non-challenging fights, not any real accomplishment.
The OP is right. They were just being too blunt heheh. Games are suppose to be played for fun, as an escape from the world. They are a challenge. Someone who uses real life money to get ahead in game is a "loser" aka they do not heve the patience, the analytical thinking, to over come in game challenges. An escape from the world? How is spending hour upon hours farming for money an escape, fact of the matter is I can make money easier in the real world then in any of these games. Explain how working harder then I do in the real world is an escape?
Originally posted by Rekiem if he has a wife and works 40 hours a week and he pays real money to get gold in a game then hes a retard sorry
What does having a wife have anything to do with buying gold? The only thing I can see is Since I have a wife, I don't have time to spend earning gold in game so I must buy gold to get the good stuff. the same goes with working 40 hours a week. Your sentence really is all backwards.
No really... i guess u could say that it evens out couse of the time u spend infron of ur comp and grind someone else is at work and erns money and so he can buy ingame items so losers is probobly not a good word for it.
But one thing is for sure. In almost every game buying ingame items for real money is forbidden just like its forbidden to use 3th party programs. So if u buy ingame items, gold, chars w/e u are a cheater. Me myself dont have much respect for cheating.
Comments
Losers at the game, yes. Losers at life, well I admitelly don't know any of them personnelly. So I can't comment.
See, this is typical for 'we hate gold buying' crowd posts. How do you know "the standard price (without hacks and exploits and gold farming)?" If you don't know whatever the standard price is, how exactly did you determine that the item was being overpriced? Or by 'overpriced' do you just mean 'a higher price than an arbitrary number Aethios decided is the correct price'?
I agree, it does affect gameplay in a bad way. There is no solution to that issue in existing gameplay concepts. I believe that the only way it can be eliminated is by publishing "proper" economy system where people doesnt have to be reach in order to enjoy the game. More than that players doesnt have to "work / grind" in the game to produce some income. Besides gold grind issues seems to be the problem of mainly WoW / EQ type games where most valuable items are looted and not produced by player crafters.
Change economy and... bingo! no more gold farming which means all those whinings must be addressed to developers who done lousy job. This is a gameplay problem which makes people desire to buy game gold for RL money in order to get most out of the game they paying for.
...Purpose of crafters in WoW is still a mystery for me lol... Looks like they only did it just to get it ticked off - yes we have crafting in the game. Watta waste...
Cheers!
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Currently playing: AoC
I buy gold.
Why? you ask....
Because I hate everyone and I have no desire to even talk to you in the game. I am a solo player. But in order to progress in these looser MMORPGs of today, you have to be rich. You are forced to be in your servers largest guild to Raid for loots or group. I have no desire to group. I don't want to know any of you.
So, I buy gold so that I can get the equipment that only drops on Raids or Group instances. I take that gear, and gank you as you are questing, farming, or whatever. I appreciate all your hard work in organizing and running your Raids/Groups to get my gear. Now I repay you by farming you.
Why don't I craft to make money? you ask....
Because that means I would have to interact with you in pricing and materials. I do not want to talk to you. I only want to gank you while questing. I also do not want to sit around for hours on end making fake weapons to sell. Thats a waist of presious gank time.
If game makers would make ALL GEAR avilable to ALL PLAYERS....... I would not buy gold
Rimcy
Actually you are wrong. Whilst it may be impossible to get rid of all gold buying, it can most definitely be greatly reduced, using a combination of both changes to MMO's to make gold buying less profitable, and by persuading other players that gold buying is not good for the future of their game.
I believe the poster above you (Itzit) looks like a very good example of how gold buying can be reduced (one small step at a time).
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
It's better be hated for who you are, than loved for who you aren't.
to spot the gold buyers, but if you play on a PvP server, then a spot
of farmer killing is a good way to vent a little frustration.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
1. Guy works 40 hours a week, has a life and a girlfriend, buys gold
or
2. Guy has no life, jerks in front of his pc and farms day and night for gold
Who's the real loser...? :x
PLZ CHOSE THE MEH FOR SPELB0rNe BETAZ KTHKXGUDBYE
1. Guy works 40 hours a week, has a life and a girlfriend, buys gold
or
2. Guy has no life, jerks in front of his pc and farms day and night for gold
Who's the real loser...? :x
When most people reach adultood they realise life is about making
sacrifices. You have a kid - well maybe you need to drive a little more
carefully. You have a wife/girlfriend - well maybe they deserve a
little of your time.
Alot of children are all "Me! Me! Me! I want everything". Most adults
have learnt a little restraint. They realise that if they only go to
football practice once a week then they don't deserve to play in the
top division of the local league, and that reading a book by stephen
hawking doesn't give them the right to heckle during a lecture by a
professor of physics.
So it's perfectly fine for someone to decide to spend time away from
MMOs to do other stuff. However expecting to do that and have the
rewards (gold, experience, whatever) for investing a great deal of time
is a very selfish atttude.
So in answer to your question - both your examples are losers.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I see soo many beggers in mmorpgs. In AO a very famous high level player even made a well known thread on the AO forums specifically telling how to make it in the game without begging and/or using real life money to buy in game money.
In WoW it is insanely easy to make in game money. Yet many still beg. If they beg in the world chat channels (the LFG channel aka looking for group) the majority of WoW players will crush them with comments like "learn to play the game" , "stop being lazy" etc.....
I think the OP of this thread has a NICE idea. Very original too! Congrats to the OP for not only bringing up a problem, but also trying to come up with a solution.
Last item... many, many, players do not realize that many of these gold selling sites are directly and/or indirectly OWNED by the game companies! Talk about making free money! Does everyone realize how insane it is to spend real life money for in game money that is created by a game maker in litterally a few seconds? Costing them nothing to creatw?
Lazy losers is right, although it is very blunt.
============================================
The OP's idea helps in other ways too. Ebay characters typically do not know how to play their characters as well. This idea would help filter them out, and make it less likely the group wipes. Making the other group members waste their time.
I think the people who waste their own time grinding are losers. The people who buy their stuff are clearly using their time more efficiently and therefore smarter. Haha jokes on you devs you just designed games that encourage customers to give tons of money to companies other than your own!
You guys are real smurt!
IMO....
Some people who speak out against gold farming would:
1) Have no problem selling their accounts on ebay after they were done with the game
2) Take advantage of game hacks and cheats such as radar, a money cheat and LOS exploits
3) Have driven faster than the posted speed limit
4) Have overstated their contributions to the Salvation army on their income tax forms
5) Really like to buy some gold or items but,
Many people who speak out against gold farming:
1) Can't afford to buy it.
Like the pornography industry, noone admits to looking at online porn..yet the business makes billions...
Gold buying is a huge business, rarely admitted to... willing to bet as many as 25-35% of the MMORPG game players out there today have bought gold or items at some time. (oh sure..but not you!!!) No, thats not a supposition... been playing these games forever..and had many guild mates buy/sell accounts, gold, items and freely admit to it
They tend to be working professionals who have more money than free time, and not losers by any sense of the definition. They aren't looking for anyone's approval, nor do they care what other's think... they are in the game to have fun...and grinding 1000 gold for an epic mount or whatever just doesn't cut it.
Rail against it all you want... its not going away anytime soon... why?
Cause game developers know one thing... these working professionals wouldn't play these games if they couldn't be competitive..and they tend to pay for subscriptions longer and in greater quantity than the rest of the gamers..which is why they dont really go to war against the buyers....
and they know the people who don't buy gold..rarely quit over the gold buying issue...
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Most of the people who speak out against gold buying seem to be older more experienced players.
I oppose buying gold and have never brought or sold any MMO items. Last
week I paid off £5,000 of my mortgage ahead of schedule. The idea I
couldn't if I choose spend £100 on a little gold is laughable.
No-one in the world likes to believe someone else is more moral than
they are. Like the previous poster, so many people try to drag others
down to their level by slander and back-biting. Unfortunately it's not
try. You aren't the greatest person on the planet.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
That's part of the problem with these discussions; some people consider it a moral issue, but they don't really explain why. Breaking an uneforced clause in an EULA doesn't qualify as a moral issue in my book, since the EULA is between the player and provider (if the provider doesn't care, then the clause doesn't matter). Even if I thought that it does, you'd need to explain why you complain about gold-buying specifically and not other commonly broken provisions of the EULA, like account sharing. It also doesn't really hold water when the ban-gold-buying crowd seems to have the exact same outrage for places where it's completely within the EULA, like Sony's servers for it or EVE in general.
Blame the devs for making large parts of their games boring and not worthwhile. Don't blame the who want to avoid that and the people who profit from a situation they did not create.
Why do people let the Devs off? They created this system. Of course people will use money to surmount hurdles no one likes. What kind of ivory tower shut-in wouldn't eralzie that?
Does anyone think "grind" usually has a good connotation? Stop making the games a job and maybe people won't pay others to do the job.
Do you really think this is different than me having JIffy Lube change my oil?
That is a job I don't want to do, so I pay someone else.
That's
part of the problem with these discussions; some people consider it a
moral issue, but they don't really explain why. Breaking an uneforced
clause in an EULA doesn't qualify as a moral issue in my book, since
the EULA is between the player and provider (if the provider doesn't
care, then the clause doesn't matter). Even if I thought that it does,
you'd need to explain why you complain about gold-buying specifically
and not other commonly broken provisions of the EULA, like account
sharing. It also doesn't really hold water when the ban-gold-buying
crowd seems to have the exact same outrage for places where it's
completely within the EULA, like Sony's servers for it or EVE in
general.
I'm not one of those who cares as
much as some others about EULA's - software publishers have enough
power as it is, without giving them the ability to write their own
virtual laws.
Instead, I view gold buying as immoral because
it creates pressure on other players to grind to keep up with your
newly acquired wealth. Expectations are raised regarding the average
level of equipment that is expected in game.
Several people
have complained that gold buying is the solution to too much grind. It
isn't. It's the cause of the problem. If there was a larger population
in games that didn't have access to so much gold etc then other players
and developers would be forced to spend more time catering to them
(either by developing more low end content or by lowering expectations
for grouping).
I don't want to play a tank and be told
"you're equipment is crap - you're much harder to heal than X" when X
is a gold buyer. People who only think of gold buying in terms of
themselves seem to me to be very selfish. They don't consider how it
affects other players and raises the ante for everyone. And I am
joined by several of the worlds major religions in believing that
selfishness is wrong.
Somehow I also have a strong sense that
success in a game should in some sense be earned. I wouldn't expect to
pay for a goal in football because I wasn't fit. I wouldn't want to buy
a rating in chess even if I didn't have time to practice. And I
wouldn't want to pick up balls on a pool table and put them in
the pockets when my opponent wasn't looking even if I am too drunk to
play. So why should MMO's be any different?
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
So do you also view grinding more than someone else as immoral since it does the exact same thing?
No, it's doesn't make sense to say that gold-buying the cause of the problem. Developers of the game are the ones who decide to make the game center on mindless repition of challengeless fights, people buying gold are just skipping the 'keep repeating this challengeless fight' part. Devs could, for example, make the items people are buying drop from a fight that's set so that it can't be trivialized (level and number caps), make gold and/or items drop from things people enjoy instead of from grinds, and otherwise not require grinding. And when most people complain about 'grinding', they talk about XP grind first, which isn't even saleable - clearly grinding is not caused by gold buying.
I don't want to play a tank and be told "you're equipment is crap - you're much harder to heal than X" when X is a no-life loser who grinds forever, or worse who treats the game as a job and joins a raid guild. That doesn't make it a moral issue, it's just a preference in gaming.
Playing a computer game is inherently selfish, I am not aware of a single world religion that says that playing an MMO for large blocks of time is significantly different from playing an MMO for smaller blocks of time but spending some money on it. Invoking major world religions is just absurd here.
I don't consider repeating challengless fights for hours on end 'earning' anything. I wouldn't expect to get a free goal in football because I threw the football at a wall for 50 hours the previous week either, but that's how grinding works. I wouldn't want to acquire a rating in chess by playing against people who offer no challenge, but that's how grinding works. And the pool example is just straight cheating at the game, it's a bad analogy - we're not talking about someone using hacks. Anything that gold farmers can farm requires only mindless repitition of non-challenging fights, not any real accomplishment.
So do you also view grinding more than someone else as immoral since it does the exact same thing?
No, it's doesn't make sense to say that gold-buying the cause of the problem. Developers of the game are the ones who decide to make the game center on mindless repition of challengeless fights, people buying gold are just skipping the 'keep repeating this challengeless fight' part. Devs could, for example, make the items people are buying drop from a fight that's set so that it can't be trivialized (level and number caps), make gold and/or items drop from things people enjoy instead of from grinds, and otherwise not require grinding. And when most people complain about 'grinding', they talk about XP grind first, which isn't even saleable - clearly grinding is not caused by gold buying.
I don't want to play a tank and be told "you're equipment is crap - you're much harder to heal than X" when X is a no-life loser who grinds forever, or worse who treats the game as a job and joins a raid guild. That doesn't make it a moral issue, it's just a preference in gaming.
Playing a computer game is inherently selfish, I am not aware of a single world religion that says that playing an MMO for large blocks of time is significantly different from playing an MMO for smaller blocks of time but spending some money on it. Invoking major world religions is just absurd here.
I don't consider repeating challengless fights for hours on end 'earning' anything. I wouldn't expect to get a free goal in football because I threw the football at a wall for 50 hours the previous week either, but that's how grinding works. I wouldn't want to acquire a rating in chess by playing against people who offer no challenge, but that's how grinding works. And the pool example is just straight cheating at the game, it's a bad analogy - we're not talking about someone using hacks. Anything that gold farmers can farm requires only mindless repitition of non-challenging fights, not any real accomplishment.
Preach it, Brother!
An escape from the world? How is spending hour upon hours farming for money an escape, fact of the matter is I can make money easier in the real world then in any of these games. Explain how working harder then I do in the real world is an escape?
Im whit u mate! Looooosers are what they are!
No really... i guess u could say that it evens out couse of the time u spend infron of ur comp and grind someone else is at work and erns money and so he can buy ingame items so losers is probobly not a good word for it.
But one thing is for sure. In almost every game buying ingame items for real money is forbidden just like its forbidden to use 3th party programs. So if u buy ingame items, gold, chars w/e u are a cheater. Me myself dont have much respect for cheating.
Which FF Character Are You?