Originally posted by Sandbox Putting the camps back may not be a bad thing. But Helios is a "bad" thing... People dislike him not for lack of camps, but for lack of understanding their customers need... He just don't get it, what SWG once was about...
How is he not understanding when he's doing something people asked?
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
Originally posted by Sandbox Putting the camps back may not be a bad thing. But Helios is a "bad" thing... People dislike him not for lack of camps, but for lack of understanding their customers need... He just don't get it, what SWG once was about...
How is he not understanding when he's doing something people asked?
Please, read Bob's post above. I don't see any point in repeating it
Originally posted by Sandbox Putting the camps back may not be a bad thing. But Helios is a "bad" thing... People dislike him not for lack of camps, but for lack of understanding their customers need... He just don't get it, what SWG once was about...
How is he not understanding when he's doing something people asked?
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
Originally posted by Sandbox Putting the camps back may not be a bad thing. But Helios is a "bad" thing... People dislike him not for lack of camps, but for lack of understanding their customers need... He just don't get it, what SWG once was about...
How is he not understanding when he's doing something people asked?
He has to do something people "asked" for because he never understood what we wanted and liked in the first place. Yes, it is a "positive" step that they are returning things to the game people wanted, but I believe, most people here's point is that these things that they are graciously and magnanimously returning to us never should have been removed in the first place. It just goes to show how truly out of touch with the wants and needs of their player base. Some even interpret this as an arrogant feeling of "devs know best, better than you silly little paying customers. Their flabbergasted response to the camp issue (You just SAT there and had fun?) illustrated it very clearly to me.
Obriak, I have always respected your belief in the current game and your overall good humor, but here I think you are being a little myopic (no offense).
Originally posted by Sandbox Putting the camps back may not be a bad thing. But Helios is a "bad" thing... People dislike him not for lack of camps, but for lack of understanding their customers need... He just don't get it, what SWG once was about...
How is he not understanding when he's doing something people asked?
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you. But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
Originally posted by Sandbox Putting the camps back may not be a bad thing. But Helios is a "bad" thing... People dislike him not for lack of camps, but for lack of understanding their customers need... He just don't get it, what SWG once was about...
How is he not understanding when he's doing something people asked?
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you. But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
Obraik, if and when camps get placed back into the game, invite Helios to come and sit with you for awhile. Try RPing with him a bit even. Tell us how long he can sit there before going all A.D.D. and challenging you to a duel.
Originally posted by Sandbox Putting the camps back may not be a bad thing. But Helios is a "bad" thing... People dislike him not for lack of camps, but for lack of understanding their customers need... He just don't get it, what SWG once was about...
How is he not understanding when he's doing something people asked?
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you. But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
This isn't the first time. Way back at the start of the year he was asking questions and probing about auto-target, slowing down combat, auto-fire and the combat log. These have now all been put into the game, yet people here at the time also accused him of being out of touch with the player base for asking that.
I don't think he's out of touch, with it, it seems a bit coincidental that he's always asking about the main issues people are posting about. He obviously knows they exist, and it seems to me that it's his way of finding out what peoples thoughts on the topic are. He does seem to bring on some passionate discussions :P
Originally posted by Sandbox Putting the camps back may not be a bad thing. But Helios is a "bad" thing... People dislike him not for lack of camps, but for lack of understanding their customers need... He just don't get it, what SWG once was about...
How is he not understanding when he's doing something people asked?
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you. But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
This isn't the first time. Way back at the start of the year he was asking questions and probing about auto-target, slowing down combat, auto-fire and the combat log. These have now all been put into the game, yet people here at the time also accused him of being out of touch with the player base for asking that.
I don't think he's out of touch, with it, it seems a bit coincidental that he's always asking about the main issues people are posting about. He obviously knows they exist, and it seems to me that it's his way of finding out what peoples thoughts on the topic are. He does seem to bring on some passionate discussions :P
All of which excisted Pre-NGE. It's called damage control, it has nothing to do with creativity. Adding back features from Pre-NGE will not stop either, there will be more you can be sure. Features that have been designed years ago by someone other than the current devs. The current devs are nothing but asset managers, deciding on which Pre-NGE feature goes in next. Doesn't take any form of understanding to figure it out either, all you need to do is count forum posts.
Anyhow Ob, this arguement doesn't seem to be getting through to you. Que Sera.
Originally posted by Sandbox Putting the camps back may not be a bad thing. But Helios is a "bad" thing... People dislike him not for lack of camps, but for lack of understanding their customers need... He just don't get it, what SWG once was about...
How is he not understanding when he's doing something people asked?
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you. But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
This isn't the first time. Way back at the start of the year he was asking questions and probing about auto-target, slowing down combat, auto-fire and the combat log. These have now all been put into the game, yet people here at the time also accused him of being out of touch with the player base for asking that.
I don't think he's out of touch, with it, it seems a bit coincidental that he's always asking about the main issues people are posting about. He obviously knows they exist, and it seems to me that it's his way of finding out what peoples thoughts on the topic are. He does seem to bring on some passionate discussions :P
The problem I see with Helios, is that he does not share the same vision that SWG had when i bought it. And I don't blaim you for that. It's me having a problem with Helios and the dev teams vision of the current game. Peace Obraik.
Originally posted by Sandbox Putting the camps back may not be a bad thing. But Helios is a "bad" thing... People dislike him not for lack of camps, but for lack of understanding their customers need... He just don't get it, what SWG once was about...
How is he not understanding when he's doing something people asked?
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you. But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
This isn't the first time. Way back at the start of the year he was asking questions and probing about auto-target, slowing down combat, auto-fire and the combat log. These have now all been put into the game, yet people here at the time also accused him of being out of touch with the player base for asking that.
I don't think he's out of touch, with it, it seems a bit coincidental that he's always asking about the main issues people are posting about. He obviously knows they exist, and it seems to me that it's his way of finding out what peoples thoughts on the topic are. He does seem to bring on some passionate discussions :P
Obraik, I appreciate what you are trying to say here, I really do. But the fact of the matter is that anyone could do what Helios has done. I could come to your home and take eveything away from you and then over time ask you what you want back next and you will be greatful if I give it back?
He is not coming up with new things for you to enjoy, he is just slowly giving you back some of what you had and you are greatful.
I don't know which side of that is sadder, Helios's for doing it to begin with or you for lauding him for it??
Originally posted by Obraik The camps thing will be part of the Crafter Revamp. It sounds like they want to give camps more of a role in combat then just being a portable cantina/camp. Is it the same thing if it's been enhanced?
Lets put it this way... If they bring it back and say (You get a crafting bonus while in one then yes it is) ---
Camps alone did this: Healed wounds, Allowed entertainers to buff, allowed you to craft (in the big one with the crafting station) Also (Said at one time which I still think was crap) Kept creatures away.
If they bring it back and say: You can crafter better, You can heal up faster, You can Hide better
Then yeah, it's a joke. If they do not change the way they look even it will not suprise me.
Enhanced, version 11 months later.
Tell ya what.. What do you think is more important: Fixing the bad parts of the game, or making it so you can use camps again?
Why not do both?
BECAUSE THEY CANNOT DO BOTH... Based on track record, history, logic, common sense and freaking PROOF they cannot chew gum and walk at the same time.
Listen, I know you DO NOT understand project managment but I do and in this field while sure it's not games, I still am close enough to it to know that you FIX AND POLISH THE CORE FIRST so that when you build on or build back you then have a solid foundation....
THIS IS THE PROBLEM, not only is the concept of the NGE flawed, but it is botched... the code is worse then before.. other wise I would not be attacking the thin fucking air again with a light saber.
See you just almost had the point....THIS TEAM CANNOT DO BOTH, not only that they cannot even polish somthing simple as combat or me aggroing a fucking Potted Plant on the ground.
There comes a point when you just have to look at things for what they are Obriak, NOT what they can be -- at 11 months later, I pretty much proved that concept is not working.
11 months later, I should not be stuck in a aggro with a fucking plant. That is a basic function that never ever had this problem before the NGE.
I never attacked the thin air with my saber making, "Whap Whap Whap noises"... but see this is the core part that is fucked up.
Until they go back, start over--- do it right this will never work and they will be burning the candles from both ends... Think I'm wrong? GO LOOK AT THE SOE BOARDS..
Listen, even a monkey could see that people are not happy, they are not liking this, crap the Dev team I don't think even likes this. I know Mr. Smedley does'nt but I also know things are almost out of control and his hands at this point.
Sooner or later somthing will make you wonder "why?"... I just don't know what it will be when it hits you.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by Sandbox Putting the camps back may not be a bad thing. But Helios is a "bad" thing... People dislike him not for lack of camps, but for lack of understanding their customers need... He just don't get it, what SWG once was about...
How is he not understanding when he's doing something people asked?
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you. But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
This isn't the first time. Way back at the start of the year he was asking questions and probing about auto-target, slowing down combat, auto-fire and the combat log. These have now all been put into the game, yet people here at the time also accused him of being out of touch with the player base for asking that.
I don't think he's out of touch, with it, it seems a bit coincidental that he's always asking about the main issues people are posting about. He obviously knows they exist, and it seems to me that it's his way of finding out what peoples thoughts on the topic are. He does seem to bring on some passionate discussions :P
All of which excisted Pre-NGE. It's called damage control, it has nothing to do with creativity. Adding back features from Pre-NGE will not stop either, there will be more you can be sure. Features that have been designed years ago by someone other than the current devs. The current devs are nothing but asset managers, deciding on which Pre-NGE feature goes in next. Doesn't take any form of understanding to figure it out either, all you need to do is count forum posts.
Anyhow Ob, this arguement doesn't seem to be getting through to you. Que Sera.
I have said this countless times. He does not grasp the responses as that.
Helios is asking and getting a answer for things we already had and enjoyed, he knew this from before the launch of the NGE.
Did you ever see one post from people asking for a UI change from the pre-CU system?? If so show it to me.. and I will show you the countless ones of people wanting it back.
Did you ever see one post from people wanting to remove camps and not have them in the game? Show them to me and I will show you the countless ones of people that want them?
Did you ever see one post that said to remove Ranger or CH from the game? No, in fact I can show you the HUNDREDS of thousands that wanted them in the game.
This is the point..
Taking things out that people never wanted removed and then bringing them back in some bastardized version claiming being in touch with the customer base is simply damage control and a way for them to eat thier words perse without looking like tools.
Some of us see this, some do not. There will come a time when people stop bending over and grabing thier ankles based on hope and stand up for the product they were promised or at least sold on.
Sometimes it takes a major "fucking over" to get to that point... for most of us it came 11 months ago, for some it's taking longer then I thought.
This is the part where I learned that people are much more forgiving while paying for a broke product then I thought.
I should go into the game business and just make shit willy nilly, hope it works and if it does not claim that it's moving things into the future.
I swear... I just wonder sometimes.
*note* any curse words in this are on purpose.. they are content to the message for those offended, sorry -- it was meant though as part of this if anyone thinks they are not.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Off topic but Doookseid I got a great laugh off of your avatar. Thats classic. Just wanted to tell ya. By the way wasn't his name Gorn? Trying to remember.
Originally posted by Thorneb Off topic but Doookseid I got a great laugh off of your avatar. Thats classic. Just wanted to tell ya. By the way wasn't his name Gorn? Trying to remember.
Lol, thanks. I just saw that pic one day and the phrase came right behind it..
But, his race was gorn, not sure if they ever said his name... too many moons have passed since I saw that episode...
Originally posted by BamaDoc I agree with Obraik. Run as much from disk as possible. And I hope you enjoy the game. Please post your feedback appropriately on these forums.
Bama and Ob are right. You really want to get as much from your install discs as you can. The patching is less painful.
It's better to start a new character the way you are too. What the NGE does to pre-CU characters is unspeakable in its painfullness. It doesn't hurt as much when it's not your old friend being mutilated to fit the new system but a new face to get used to and write from the ground up by NGE experiences.
Originally posted by Sandbox Putting the camps back may not be a bad thing. But Helios is a "bad" thing... People dislike him not for lack of camps, but for lack of understanding their customers need... He just don't get it, what SWG once was about...
How is he not understanding when he's doing something people asked?
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you. But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
This isn't the first time. Way back at the start of the year he was asking questions and probing about auto-target, slowing down combat, auto-fire and the combat log. These have now all been put into the game, yet people here at the time also accused him of being out of touch with the player base for asking that.
I don't think he's out of touch, with it, it seems a bit coincidental that he's always asking about the main issues people are posting about. He obviously knows they exist, and it seems to me that it's his way of finding out what peoples thoughts on the topic are. He does seem to bring on some passionate discussions :P
Obraik, I appreciate what you are trying to say here, I really do. But the fact of the matter is that anyone could do what Helios has done. I could come to your home and take eveything away from you and then over time ask you what you want back next and you will be greatful if I give it back?
He is not coming up with new things for you to enjoy, he is just slowly giving you back some of what you had and you are greatful.
I don't know which side of that is sadder, Helios's for doing it to begin with or you for lauding him for it??
Remember though, Helios wasn't in a senior position during the NGE creation period. It wasn't until Jeff Freeman left/got kicked out that he was promoted to Jeff's job.
If Helios hadn't been promoted to that position and Jeff kept the job Helios now has, would these older features be being worked into the new game?
How are you related to Helios? Really, no BS. I am just curious...
I understand that Helios is in a difficult position. I really do. But what hasn't changed is that he was on the team when Jeff and other "...smart people..." came up with what you are playing now. And the only way they seem to be able to make it palletteable is to add things that they ripped out with their design that was so fun they "...shouldn't do this."
I am a very forgiving person myself. But to forgive someone, they first have to admit a mistake. The only mistake I have seen anyone admit to was in the "timing" of the NGE. Not good enough.
Giving back what was taken away without an apology or explanation is not in itself an admission of guilt of having done anything wrong.
This is not a court of law, noone is on trial here so I will try to stop being so overly dramatic but what this is is common sense versus stupidity. Common sense tells me these things are coming back because of stupid mistakes made. Was Helios in charge? No. Was he involved? Most definitely. So involved they promoted him. Does he know what went wrong? Apparently not. He has to ask what went wrong and then throw temper tantrums when the folks on the oForums point out that it was what he and the team did to the game that was wrong.
Begrudgingly and with a sense of disbelief he gives some of these things back thumbing his nose at the community the whole time he is doing it and you refuse to see it for what it is.
He is not smart enough to come up with new and exciting content without it being a total debacle. (Restuss anyone??) They can't even get the transfer of GCW and Faction points to a workable level. Don't believe me? Just read the forums.
Are you a doctor or nurse Obraik? Just wondering because the way you nurse this sick game surely smacks of blind compassion.
I have to agree Obriak, wake up, the best things that have been presented in the last 11 months are all rehashing things that they pulled in favor of the "marvelous" NGE. If Helios listened to the customer we would all be playing classic servers as we speak. What do they do instead but delete and lock any forum related to that topic, is that listening? no thats selective listening. They give you camps and say "see we do listen to the needs of the customer when in actuality what we all want is a classic servers.
If Helios was truly concerned with the customer he wouldn't dismiss all dicussion about classic servers or reverting the system. If he logs into the game in the least he can see the empty cities, the lack of things to do other than pointless PVP. I'm sorry but grinding faction is pointless, they claim they lowered the profs to 9 for balance but when you become a officer in the GCW you begin to get moves that will throw all balance right out the window, I mean come on call down a airstrike, its ridiculous. Thats my point, not one of these new ideas are working, the solution is staring him in the face and being championed by a majority of current and former players but he ignores this in favor of fluff content. Keep the player base busy grinding GCW faction to divert their attention from the fact that so little is really left to do.
My last day logged in Restuss was completely overrun by the other side so I asked a friend "so what do we do" he sat silent and said don't know, log out? and that pretty much summed it up. The server my toons are on have people in two locations mos eisley has people standing around and Restuss has the GCW grinders and thats it, my town is dead as well as every other player city. I guess I can't be positive when the answers are so obvious and have been for 11 months but suits like helios sit with their fingers in their ears and refuse to accept what has to be done, it angers me that they will let a game die over admitting fault, that is completely unacceptable in my book and something that I can't forgive.
Originally posted by dookseid Obraik, How are you related to Helios? Really, no BS. I am just curious... I understand that Helios is in a difficult position. I really do. But what hasn't changed is that he was on the team when Jeff and other "...smart people..." came up with what you are playing now. And the only way they seem to be able to make it palletteable is to add things that they ripped out with their design that was so fun they "...shouldn't do this." I am a very forgiving person myself. But to forgive someone, they first have to admit a mistake. The only mistake I have seen anyone admit to was in the "timing" of the NGE. Not good enough. Giving back what was taken away without an apology or explanation is not in itself an admission of guilt of having done anything wrong. This is not a court of law, noone is on trial here so I will try to stop being so overly dramatic but what this is is common sense versus stupidity. Common sense tells me these things are coming back because of stupid mistakes made. Was Helios in charge? No. Was he involved? Most definitely. So involved they promoted him. Does he know what went wrong? Apparently not. He has to ask what went wrong and then throw temper tantrums when the folks on the oForums point out that it was what he and the team did to the game that was wrong. Begrudgingly and with a sense of disbelief he gives some of these things back thumbing his nose at the community the whole time he is doing it and you refuse to see it for what it is. He is not smart enough to come up with new and exciting content without it being a total debacle. (Restuss anyone??) They can't even get the transfer of GCW and Faction points to a workable level. Don't believe me? Just read the forums. Are you a doctor or nurse Obraik? Just wondering because the way you nurse this sick game surely smacks of blind compassion. Take care...
Oh, I think Hekios needs a wipe. _______________________________________________________________________________________ "If Helios hadn't been promoted to that position and Jeff kept the job Helios now has, would these older features be being worked into the new game?"
I don't know. What I do know is that no matter, you would be praising him for it.
Edited for undue harshness to Obraik. My apologies.
If you're not in a position of authority, how can you be blamed for the way something turned out? At the end of a day, it's a job he has. If you want to keep you job and have bread on the table, you do as your boss says. Sure, he could have said no and refused to do it and that would please some people here, but it potentially sabotages his career since he's unlikely to get a good reference for it.
I see it simply for how it is. Before the lead designer position changed hands, we were being told that so many things we have now couldn't/wouldn't be done. Soon after that happened these same things started happening. These are things people have been asking for and you're going to have a hard time convincing me that I should be hating the Dev team for listening to what people have been asking for. Don't bring up the whole "they're not listening to cries for a rollback to classic servers" because that's moving backwards and we're back to the core issues we had.
As for Helios' posts and calling them tantrums, I think you and many others are reading WAY too much into them and making an issue of something that isn't really there.
This isn't about me sticking up for the game or for Helios, to me it's just common sense stuff, which I think is being lost here because people have become so involved in everything and aren't stepping back and looking at things. Alot here are blinded by their hate.
Originally posted by dookseid Obraik, How are you related to Helios? Really, no BS. I am just curious... I understand that Helios is in a difficult position. I really do. But what hasn't changed is that he was on the team when Jeff and other "...smart people..." came up with what you are playing now. And the only way they seem to be able to make it palletteable is to add things that they ripped out with their design that was so fun they "...shouldn't do this." I am a very forgiving person myself. But to forgive someone, they first have to admit a mistake. The only mistake I have seen anyone admit to was in the "timing" of the NGE. Not good enough. Giving back what was taken away without an apology or explanation is not in itself an admission of guilt of having done anything wrong. This is not a court of law, noone is on trial here so I will try to stop being so overly dramatic but what this is is common sense versus stupidity. Common sense tells me these things are coming back because of stupid mistakes made. Was Helios in charge? No. Was he involved? Most definitely. So involved they promoted him. Does he know what went wrong? Apparently not. He has to ask what went wrong and then throw temper tantrums when the folks on the oForums point out that it was what he and the team did to the game that was wrong. Begrudgingly and with a sense of disbelief he gives some of these things back thumbing his nose at the community the whole time he is doing it and you refuse to see it for what it is. He is not smart enough to come up with new and exciting content without it being a total debacle. (Restuss anyone??) They can't even get the transfer of GCW and Faction points to a workable level. Don't believe me? Just read the forums. Are you a doctor or nurse Obraik? Just wondering because the way you nurse this sick game surely smacks of blind compassion. Take care...
Oh, I think Hekios needs a wipe. _______________________________________________________________________________________ "If Helios hadn't been promoted to that position and Jeff kept the job Helios now has, would these older features be being worked into the new game?"
I don't know. What I do know is that no matter, you would be praising him for it.
Edited for undue harshness to Obraik. My apologies.
If you're not in a position of authority, how can you be blamed for the way something turned out? At the end of a day, it's a job he has. If you want to keep you job and have bread on the table, you do as your boss says. Sure, he could have said no and refused to do it and that would please some people here, but it potentially sabotages his career since he's unlikely to get a good reference for it.
I see it simply for how it is. Before the lead designer position changed hands, we were being told that so many things we have now couldn't/wouldn't be done. Soon after that happened these same things started happening. These are things people have been asking for and you're going to have a hard time convincing me that I should be hating the Dev team for listening to what people have been asking for. Don't bring up the whole "they're not listening to cries for a rollback to classic servers" because that's moving backwards and we're back to the core issues we had.
As for Helios' posts and calling them tantrums, I think you and many others are reading WAY too much into them and making an issue of something that isn't really there.
This isn't about me sticking up for the game or for Helios, to me it's just common sense stuff, which I think is being lost here because people have become so involved in everything and aren't stepping back and looking at things. Alot here are blinded by their hate.
Tough position Obraik. I'm not sure what will infuriate folks worse, the fact that you still pay (pun intended) SWG or the fact that you're defending Helios.
The real blame for NGE should go on Julio (LA) and Smed (SWG). Tiggs proved that anyone who was not a "yes man" got the axe. Helios really should control himself on the boards though. There are some people in life who always know the right things to say. Then there are Helios . . . and ChrisCao . . .
Anyway, installed and patched overnight, it took HOURS, and still it froze to a halt and had to be relaunched the morning after.
Been playing about 4-5 hours fooling around on the station and just landed in Tat and kicked off the legacy missions. Im level 10/11 Bounty Hunter, I have 35,000+ credits and a landspeeder already. Gosh I never had 'Phat lewt' before in the old days. I feel special :P, not to mention Star Warsy and not a little iconic.
Originally posted by dookseid Obraik, How are you related to Helios? Really, no BS. I am just curious... I understand that Helios is in a difficult position. I really do. But what hasn't changed is that he was on the team when Jeff and other "...smart people..." came up with what you are playing now. And the only way they seem to be able to make it palletteable is to add things that they ripped out with their design that was so fun they "...shouldn't do this." I am a very forgiving person myself. But to forgive someone, they first have to admit a mistake. The only mistake I have seen anyone admit to was in the "timing" of the NGE. Not good enough. Giving back what was taken away without an apology or explanation is not in itself an admission of guilt of having done anything wrong. This is not a court of law, noone is on trial here so I will try to stop being so overly dramatic but what this is is common sense versus stupidity. Common sense tells me these things are coming back because of stupid mistakes made. Was Helios in charge? No. Was he involved? Most definitely. So involved they promoted him. Does he know what went wrong? Apparently not. He has to ask what went wrong and then throw temper tantrums when the folks on the oForums point out that it was what he and the team did to the game that was wrong. Begrudgingly and with a sense of disbelief he gives some of these things back thumbing his nose at the community the whole time he is doing it and you refuse to see it for what it is. He is not smart enough to come up with new and exciting content without it being a total debacle. (Restuss anyone??) They can't even get the transfer of GCW and Faction points to a workable level. Don't believe me? Just read the forums. Are you a doctor or nurse Obraik? Just wondering because the way you nurse this sick game surely smacks of blind compassion. Take care...
Oh, I think Hekios needs a wipe. _______________________________________________________________________________________ "If Helios hadn't been promoted to that position and Jeff kept the job Helios now has, would these older features be being worked into the new game?"
I don't know. What I do know is that no matter, you would be praising him for it.
Edited for undue harshness to Obraik. My apologies.
If you're not in a position of authority, how can you be blamed for the way something turned out? At the end of a day, it's a job he has. If you want to keep you job and have bread on the table, you do as your boss says. Sure, he could have said no and refused to do it and that would please some people here, but it potentially sabotages his career since he's unlikely to get a good reference for it.
I see it simply for how it is. Before the lead designer position changed hands, we were being told that so many things we have now couldn't/wouldn't be done. Soon after that happened these same things started happening. These are things people have been asking for and you're going to have a hard time convincing me that I should be hating the Dev team for listening to what people have been asking for. Don't bring up the whole "they're not listening to cries for a rollback to classic servers" because that's moving backwards and we're back to the core issues we had.
As for Helios' posts and calling them tantrums, I think you and many others are reading WAY too much into them and making an issue of something that isn't really there.
This isn't about me sticking up for the game or for Helios, to me it's just common sense stuff, which I think is being lost here because people have become so involved in everything and aren't stepping back and looking at things. Alot here are blinded by their hate.
Obriak I do NOT have to hate anything to see a giant clusterfuck.
Again.... see what these people are telling you... Common sense, logic.... see it, not from me but others even.
Sooner or later you'll "get it"... it will hit you and you will just wonder why.
Somthing will happen that will make you question all that you trusted sooner or later... your the most forgiving consumer I know I think. I wish all people were like you in that sense because alot of us could be more successful.
Crap, Looking at things for what they are is worse then what your doing, that made no sense to me that you said that.
Some of us are looking at them for what they are, so far I see a mess and a joke of a product... BUT don't let me tell you that, let the rest of the population and these Devs, or Creators of the game, or Producers of the game or the President of the company even.
See, the SOE boards do not allow that info to hit them... so those players are , well..... clueless as to what is going on.
If half of them knew that Smedley himself called the NGE a mistake and the current version somthing he wishes he never did, I can tell you that normal people with common sense MAY NOT like to hear that about thier game they invest time in.
This is the type of problem we have now.... getting that info to them, so they can be informed and make a wiser choice of thier time. If anything sooner or later somthing will have to give.
I can also tell you that SOE is not really out there dumping huge money into anything SWG... this is a old project... it seems to be on the back burner now. LEC is not even out there promoting it heavy... so far it is know as the bastard child MMO -- I have NOT SEEN ONE, NOT ONE good review or one good thing said about the NGE from ANY DEV or even themselves... I mean that is the worst part--- THIER OWN COMPANY IS CALLING IT A MISTAKE FOR CRAP SAKE.
At what point do you ask yourself "WTF?" ---
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by dookseid Obraik, How are you related to Helios? Really, no BS. I am just curious... I understand that Helios is in a difficult position. I really do. But what hasn't changed is that he was on the team when Jeff and other "...smart people..." came up with what you are playing now. And the only way they seem to be able to make it palletteable is to add things that they ripped out with their design that was so fun they "...shouldn't do this." I am a very forgiving person myself. But to forgive someone, they first have to admit a mistake. The only mistake I have seen anyone admit to was in the "timing" of the NGE. Not good enough. Giving back what was taken away without an apology or explanation is not in itself an admission of guilt of having done anything wrong. This is not a court of law, noone is on trial here so I will try to stop being so overly dramatic but what this is is common sense versus stupidity. Common sense tells me these things are coming back because of stupid mistakes made. Was Helios in charge? No. Was he involved? Most definitely. So involved they promoted him. Does he know what went wrong? Apparently not. He has to ask what went wrong and then throw temper tantrums when the folks on the oForums point out that it was what he and the team did to the game that was wrong. Begrudgingly and with a sense of disbelief he gives some of these things back thumbing his nose at the community the whole time he is doing it and you refuse to see it for what it is. He is not smart enough to come up with new and exciting content without it being a total debacle. (Restuss anyone??) They can't even get the transfer of GCW and Faction points to a workable level. Don't believe me? Just read the forums. Are you a doctor or nurse Obraik? Just wondering because the way you nurse this sick game surely smacks of blind compassion. Take care...
Oh, I think Hekios needs a wipe. _______________________________________________________________________________________ "If Helios hadn't been promoted to that position and Jeff kept the job Helios now has, would these older features be being worked into the new game?"
I don't know. What I do know is that no matter, you would be praising him for it.
Edited for undue harshness to Obraik. My apologies.
If you're not in a position of authority, how can you be blamed for the way something turned out? At the end of a day, it's a job he has. If you want to keep you job and have bread on the table, you do as your boss says. Sure, he could have said no and refused to do it and that would please some people here, but it potentially sabotages his career since he's unlikely to get a good reference for it.
I see it simply for how it is. Before the lead designer position changed hands, we were being told that so many things we have now couldn't/wouldn't be done. Soon after that happened these same things started happening. These are things people have been asking for and you're going to have a hard time convincing me that I should be hating the Dev team for listening to what people have been asking for. Don't bring up the whole "they're not listening to cries for a rollback to classic servers" because that's moving backwards and we're back to the core issues we had.
As for Helios' posts and calling them tantrums, I think you and many others are reading WAY too much into them and making an issue of something that isn't really there.
This isn't about me sticking up for the game or for Helios, to me it's just common sense stuff, which I think is being lost here because people have become so involved in everything and aren't stepping back and looking at things. Alot here are blinded by their hate.
Tough position Obraik. I'm not sure what will infuriate folks worse, the fact that you still pay (pun intended) SWG or the fact that you're defending Helios.
The real blame for NGE should go on Julio (LA) and Smed (SWG). Tiggs proved that anyone who was not a "yes man" got the axe. Helios really should control himself on the boards though. There are some people in life who always know the right things to say. Then there are Helios . . . and ChrisCao . . .
For starters, nothing Obraik says can or will ever infuriate me. In fact I like Obraiks style. He is calm and easy going. The only thing frustrating is knowing we will never see eye to eye on how things are.
I also agree that the buck stops at the top. I guess my main point is that we were told these changes were so that they could code the game better and in less time than in the past. From my standpoint I have seen none of that come to fruition. Finishing expertise is still a ways off and population is way down because of how they made the game better. These are the common sense things I was talking about.
I would not have resubbed a couple of times if I did not want to like the game and give SOE the benefit of the doubt. If someone wants to humanize the devs I have no problem with that, they are after all HUMAN. They make mistakes. What bugs most people is that they can't acknowledge the mistakes where and when made and get pissy and unprofessional when people point out those mistakes.
I'm in no way asking for a rollback. I am asking for a great game. If that means as some here believe "Classic servers" then by all means, just tell us why it can't happen as it seems the issues with classic would have taken less time to fix and far less trouble to code then two revamps of the game. Ya know, common sense stuff.
Don't proclaim that "We knew we would lose some people..." proudly on G4 TV and then not be ready to eat crow and fix the mistake shoould it spiral out of control like it did. Where I come from it's called being a man and owning up to it. Until that happens from someone, anyone at SOE, then we have a problem.
Comments
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
Doing what you're told, and understanding what you're doing, are two different things.
Please, read Bob's post above. I don't see any point in repeating it
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
He has to do something people "asked" for because he never understood what we wanted and liked in the first place. Yes, it is a "positive" step that they are returning things to the game people wanted, but I believe, most people here's point is that these things that they are graciously and magnanimously returning to us never should have been removed in the first place. It just goes to show how truly out of touch with the wants and needs of their player base. Some even interpret this as an arrogant feeling of "devs know best, better than you silly little paying customers. Their flabbergasted response to the camp issue (You just SAT there and had fun?) illustrated it very clearly to me.
Obriak, I have always respected your belief in the current game and your overall good humor, but here I think you are being a little myopic (no offense).
There's free love on the Freelove Freeway.
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you.
But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you.
But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
Obraik, if and when camps get placed back into the game, invite Helios to come and sit with you for awhile. Try RPing with him a bit even. Tell us how long he can sit there before going all A.D.D. and challenging you to a duel.
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you.
But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
This isn't the first time. Way back at the start of the year he was asking questions and probing about auto-target, slowing down combat, auto-fire and the combat log. These have now all been put into the game, yet people here at the time also accused him of being out of touch with the player base for asking that.
I don't think he's out of touch, with it, it seems a bit coincidental that he's always asking about the main issues people are posting about. He obviously knows they exist, and it seems to me that it's his way of finding out what peoples thoughts on the topic are. He does seem to bring on some passionate discussions :P
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you.
But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
This isn't the first time. Way back at the start of the year he was asking questions and probing about auto-target, slowing down combat, auto-fire and the combat log. These have now all been put into the game, yet people here at the time also accused him of being out of touch with the player base for asking that.
I don't think he's out of touch, with it, it seems a bit coincidental that he's always asking about the main issues people are posting about. He obviously knows they exist, and it seems to me that it's his way of finding out what peoples thoughts on the topic are. He does seem to bring on some passionate discussions :P
All of which excisted Pre-NGE. It's called damage control, it has nothing to do with creativity. Adding back features from Pre-NGE will not stop either, there will be more you can be sure. Features that have been designed years ago by someone other than the current devs. The current devs are nothing but asset managers, deciding on which Pre-NGE feature goes in next. Doesn't take any form of understanding to figure it out either, all you need to do is count forum posts.
Anyhow Ob, this arguement doesn't seem to be getting through to you. Que Sera.
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you.
But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
This isn't the first time. Way back at the start of the year he was asking questions and probing about auto-target, slowing down combat, auto-fire and the combat log. These have now all been put into the game, yet people here at the time also accused him of being out of touch with the player base for asking that.
I don't think he's out of touch, with it, it seems a bit coincidental that he's always asking about the main issues people are posting about. He obviously knows they exist, and it seems to me that it's his way of finding out what peoples thoughts on the topic are. He does seem to bring on some passionate discussions :P
The problem I see with Helios, is that he does not share the same vision that SWG had when i bought it.
And I don't blaim you for that. It's me having a problem with Helios and the dev teams vision of the current game. Peace Obraik.
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you.
But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
This isn't the first time. Way back at the start of the year he was asking questions and probing about auto-target, slowing down combat, auto-fire and the combat log. These have now all been put into the game, yet people here at the time also accused him of being out of touch with the player base for asking that.
I don't think he's out of touch, with it, it seems a bit coincidental that he's always asking about the main issues people are posting about. He obviously knows they exist, and it seems to me that it's his way of finding out what peoples thoughts on the topic are. He does seem to bring on some passionate discussions :P
Obraik, I appreciate what you are trying to say here, I really do. But the fact of the matter is that anyone could do what Helios has done. I could come to your home and take eveything away from you and then over time ask you what you want back next and you will be greatful if I give it back?
He is not coming up with new things for you to enjoy, he is just slowly giving you back some of what you had and you are greatful.
I don't know which side of that is sadder, Helios's for doing it to begin with or you for lauding him for it??
Lets put it this way... If they bring it back and say (You get a crafting bonus while in one then yes it is) ---
Camps alone did this: Healed wounds, Allowed entertainers to buff, allowed you to craft (in the big one with the crafting station) Also (Said at one time which I still think was crap) Kept creatures away.
If they bring it back and say: You can crafter better, You can heal up faster, You can Hide better
Then yeah, it's a joke. If they do not change the way they look even it will not suprise me.
Enhanced, version 11 months later.
Tell ya what.. What do you think is more important: Fixing the bad parts of the game, or making it so you can use camps again?
Why not do both?
BECAUSE THEY CANNOT DO BOTH... Based on track record, history, logic, common sense and freaking PROOF they cannot chew gum and walk at the same time.
Listen, I know you DO NOT understand project managment but I do and in this field while sure it's not games, I still am close enough to it to know that you FIX AND POLISH THE CORE FIRST so that when you build on or build back you then have a solid foundation....
THIS IS THE PROBLEM, not only is the concept of the NGE flawed, but it is botched... the code is worse then before.. other wise I would not be attacking the thin fucking air again with a light saber.
See you just almost had the point....THIS TEAM CANNOT DO BOTH, not only that they cannot even polish somthing simple as combat or me aggroing a fucking Potted Plant on the ground.
There comes a point when you just have to look at things for what they are Obriak, NOT what they can be -- at 11 months later, I pretty much proved that concept is not working.
11 months later, I should not be stuck in a aggro with a fucking plant. That is a basic function that never ever had this problem before the NGE.
I never attacked the thin air with my saber making, "Whap Whap Whap noises"... but see this is the core part that is fucked up.
Until they go back, start over--- do it right this will never work and they will be burning the candles from both ends... Think I'm wrong? GO LOOK AT THE SOE BOARDS..
Listen, even a monkey could see that people are not happy, they are not liking this, crap the Dev team I don't think even likes this. I know Mr. Smedley does'nt but I also know things are almost out of control and his hands at this point.
Sooner or later somthing will make you wonder "why?"... I just don't know what it will be when it hits you.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you.
But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
This isn't the first time. Way back at the start of the year he was asking questions and probing about auto-target, slowing down combat, auto-fire and the combat log. These have now all been put into the game, yet people here at the time also accused him of being out of touch with the player base for asking that.
I don't think he's out of touch, with it, it seems a bit coincidental that he's always asking about the main issues people are posting about. He obviously knows they exist, and it seems to me that it's his way of finding out what peoples thoughts on the topic are. He does seem to bring on some passionate discussions :P
All of which excisted Pre-NGE. It's called damage control, it has nothing to do with creativity. Adding back features from Pre-NGE will not stop either, there will be more you can be sure. Features that have been designed years ago by someone other than the current devs. The current devs are nothing but asset managers, deciding on which Pre-NGE feature goes in next. Doesn't take any form of understanding to figure it out either, all you need to do is count forum posts.
Anyhow Ob, this arguement doesn't seem to be getting through to you. Que Sera.
I have said this countless times. He does not grasp the responses as that.
Helios is asking and getting a answer for things we already had and enjoyed, he knew this from before the launch of the NGE.
Did you ever see one post from people asking for a UI change from the pre-CU system?? If so show it to me.. and I will show you the countless ones of people wanting it back.
Did you ever see one post from people wanting to remove camps and not have them in the game? Show them to me and I will show you the countless ones of people that want them?
Did you ever see one post that said to remove Ranger or CH from the game? No, in fact I can show you the HUNDREDS of thousands that wanted them in the game.
This is the point..
Taking things out that people never wanted removed and then bringing them back in some bastardized version claiming being in touch with the customer base is simply damage control and a way for them to eat thier words perse without looking like tools.
Some of us see this, some do not. There will come a time when people stop bending over and grabing thier ankles based on hope and stand up for the product they were promised or at least sold on.
Sometimes it takes a major "fucking over" to get to that point... for most of us it came 11 months ago, for some it's taking longer then I thought.
This is the part where I learned that people are much more forgiving while paying for a broke product then I thought.
I should go into the game business and just make shit willy nilly, hope it works and if it does not claim that it's moving things into the future.
I swear... I just wonder sometimes.
*note* any curse words in this are on purpose.. they are content to the message for those offended, sorry -- it was meant though as part of this if anyone thinks they are not.
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I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Lol, thanks. I just saw that pic one day and the phrase came right behind it..
But, his race was gorn, not sure if they ever said his name... too many moons have passed since I saw that episode...
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
It's better to start a new character the way you are too. What the NGE does to pre-CU characters is unspeakable in its painfullness. It doesn't hurt as much when it's not your old friend being mutilated to fit the new system but a new face to get used to and write from the ground up by NGE experiences.
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Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
You need to go back and read the famous 'so you just sat there and it was fun?' thread.
That statement had very little to do with camps. It simply shows that Helios has no clue who he is making a game for or what they want.
I remember the thread
Maybe he didn't understand why people wanted camps back when he made that thread, since camps didn't provide much practical use in the CU. The fact that he's putting them back in means he has at least listened to what the people said in that thread and thought what they said was valid enough for them to put camps back in the game. How well he listened won't be known until Chapter 5 hits TC in a few months.
If we where talkin about just ONE incident with Helios, then I may had agreed with you.
But look at the bigger picture, he has been repeating the same mistakes for eleven months now.
This isn't the first time. Way back at the start of the year he was asking questions and probing about auto-target, slowing down combat, auto-fire and the combat log. These have now all been put into the game, yet people here at the time also accused him of being out of touch with the player base for asking that.
I don't think he's out of touch, with it, it seems a bit coincidental that he's always asking about the main issues people are posting about. He obviously knows they exist, and it seems to me that it's his way of finding out what peoples thoughts on the topic are. He does seem to bring on some passionate discussions :P
Obraik, I appreciate what you are trying to say here, I really do. But the fact of the matter is that anyone could do what Helios has done. I could come to your home and take eveything away from you and then over time ask you what you want back next and you will be greatful if I give it back?
He is not coming up with new things for you to enjoy, he is just slowly giving you back some of what you had and you are greatful.
I don't know which side of that is sadder, Helios's for doing it to begin with or you for lauding him for it??
Remember though, Helios wasn't in a senior position during the NGE creation period. It wasn't until Jeff Freeman left/got kicked out that he was promoted to Jeff's job.
If Helios hadn't been promoted to that position and Jeff kept the job Helios now has, would these older features be being worked into the new game?
Obraik,
How are you related to Helios? Really, no BS. I am just curious...
I understand that Helios is in a difficult position. I really do. But what hasn't changed is that he was on the team when Jeff and other "...smart people..." came up with what you are playing now. And the only way they seem to be able to make it palletteable is to add things that they ripped out with their design that was so fun they "...shouldn't do this."
I am a very forgiving person myself. But to forgive someone, they first have to admit a mistake. The only mistake I have seen anyone admit to was in the "timing" of the NGE. Not good enough.
Giving back what was taken away without an apology or explanation is not in itself an admission of guilt of having done anything wrong.
This is not a court of law, noone is on trial here so I will try to stop being so overly dramatic but what this is is common sense versus stupidity. Common sense tells me these things are coming back because of stupid mistakes made. Was Helios in charge? No. Was he involved? Most definitely. So involved they promoted him. Does he know what went wrong? Apparently not. He has to ask what went wrong and then throw temper tantrums when the folks on the oForums point out that it was what he and the team did to the game that was wrong.
Begrudgingly and with a sense of disbelief he gives some of these things back thumbing his nose at the community the whole time he is doing it and you refuse to see it for what it is.
He is not smart enough to come up with new and exciting content without it being a total debacle. (Restuss anyone??) They can't even get the transfer of GCW and Faction points to a workable level. Don't believe me? Just read the forums.
Are you a doctor or nurse Obraik? Just wondering because the way you nurse this sick game surely smacks of blind compassion.
Take care...
Oh, I think Hekios needs a wipe.
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"If Helios hadn't been promoted to that position and Jeff kept the job Helios now has, would these older features be being worked into the new game?"
I don't know. What I do know is that no matter, you would be praising him for it.
Edited for undue harshness to Obraik. My apologies.
If Helios was truly concerned with the customer he wouldn't dismiss all dicussion about classic servers or reverting the system. If he logs into the game in the least he can see the empty cities, the lack of things to do other than pointless PVP. I'm sorry but grinding faction is pointless, they claim they lowered the profs to 9 for balance but when you become a officer in the GCW you begin to get moves that will throw all balance right out the window, I mean come on call down a airstrike, its ridiculous. Thats my point, not one of these new ideas are working, the solution is staring him in the face and being championed by a majority of current and former players but he ignores this in favor of fluff content. Keep the player base busy grinding GCW faction to divert their attention from the fact that so little is really left to do.
My last day logged in Restuss was completely overrun by the other side so I asked a friend "so what do we do" he sat silent and said don't know, log out? and that pretty much summed it up. The server my toons are on have people in two locations mos eisley has people standing around and Restuss has the GCW grinders and thats it, my town is dead as well as every other player city. I guess I can't be positive when the answers are so obvious and have been for 11 months but suits like helios sit with their fingers in their ears and refuse to accept what has to be done, it angers me that they will let a game die over admitting fault, that is completely unacceptable in my book and something that I can't forgive.
If you're not in a position of authority, how can you be blamed for the way something turned out? At the end of a day, it's a job he has. If you want to keep you job and have bread on the table, you do as your boss says. Sure, he could have said no and refused to do it and that would please some people here, but it potentially sabotages his career since he's unlikely to get a good reference for it.
I see it simply for how it is. Before the lead designer position changed hands, we were being told that so many things we have now couldn't/wouldn't be done. Soon after that happened these same things started happening. These are things people have been asking for and you're going to have a hard time convincing me that I should be hating the Dev team for listening to what people have been asking for. Don't bring up the whole "they're not listening to cries for a rollback to classic servers" because that's moving backwards and we're back to the core issues we had.
As for Helios' posts and calling them tantrums, I think you and many others are reading WAY too much into them and making an issue of something that isn't really there.
This isn't about me sticking up for the game or for Helios, to me it's just common sense stuff, which I think is being lost here because people have become so involved in everything and aren't stepping back and looking at things. Alot here are blinded by their hate.
If you're not in a position of authority, how can you be blamed for the way something turned out? At the end of a day, it's a job he has. If you want to keep you job and have bread on the table, you do as your boss says. Sure, he could have said no and refused to do it and that would please some people here, but it potentially sabotages his career since he's unlikely to get a good reference for it.
I see it simply for how it is. Before the lead designer position changed hands, we were being told that so many things we have now couldn't/wouldn't be done. Soon after that happened these same things started happening. These are things people have been asking for and you're going to have a hard time convincing me that I should be hating the Dev team for listening to what people have been asking for. Don't bring up the whole "they're not listening to cries for a rollback to classic servers" because that's moving backwards and we're back to the core issues we had.
As for Helios' posts and calling them tantrums, I think you and many others are reading WAY too much into them and making an issue of something that isn't really there.
This isn't about me sticking up for the game or for Helios, to me it's just common sense stuff, which I think is being lost here because people have become so involved in everything and aren't stepping back and looking at things. Alot here are blinded by their hate.
Tough position Obraik. I'm not sure what will infuriate folks worse, the fact that you still pay (pun intended) SWG or the fact that you're defending Helios.
The real blame for NGE should go on Julio (LA) and Smed (SWG). Tiggs proved that anyone who was not a "yes man" got the axe. Helios really should control himself on the boards though. There are some people in life who always know the right things to say. Then there are Helios . . . and ChrisCao . . .
Well didnt this thread get out of hand :P
Anyway, installed and patched overnight, it took HOURS, and still it froze to a halt and had to be relaunched the morning after.
Been playing about 4-5 hours fooling around on the station and just landed in Tat and kicked off the legacy missions. Im level 10/11 Bounty Hunter, I have 35,000+ credits and a landspeeder already. Gosh I never had 'Phat lewt' before in the old days. I feel special :P, not to mention Star Warsy and not a little iconic.
and i got a nice new carbine
from the corpse of a womp rat...
right
um...
more to come i guess
If you're not in a position of authority, how can you be blamed for the way something turned out? At the end of a day, it's a job he has. If you want to keep you job and have bread on the table, you do as your boss says. Sure, he could have said no and refused to do it and that would please some people here, but it potentially sabotages his career since he's unlikely to get a good reference for it.
I see it simply for how it is. Before the lead designer position changed hands, we were being told that so many things we have now couldn't/wouldn't be done. Soon after that happened these same things started happening. These are things people have been asking for and you're going to have a hard time convincing me that I should be hating the Dev team for listening to what people have been asking for. Don't bring up the whole "they're not listening to cries for a rollback to classic servers" because that's moving backwards and we're back to the core issues we had.
As for Helios' posts and calling them tantrums, I think you and many others are reading WAY too much into them and making an issue of something that isn't really there.
This isn't about me sticking up for the game or for Helios, to me it's just common sense stuff, which I think is being lost here because people have become so involved in everything and aren't stepping back and looking at things. Alot here are blinded by their hate.
Obriak I do NOT have to hate anything to see a giant clusterfuck.
Again.... see what these people are telling you... Common sense, logic.... see it, not from me but others even.
Sooner or later you'll "get it"... it will hit you and you will just wonder why.
Somthing will happen that will make you question all that you trusted sooner or later... your the most forgiving consumer I know I think. I wish all people were like you in that sense because alot of us could be more successful.
Crap, Looking at things for what they are is worse then what your doing, that made no sense to me that you said that.
Some of us are looking at them for what they are, so far I see a mess and a joke of a product... BUT don't let me tell you that, let the rest of the population and these Devs, or Creators of the game, or Producers of the game or the President of the company even.
See, the SOE boards do not allow that info to hit them... so those players are , well..... clueless as to what is going on.
If half of them knew that Smedley himself called the NGE a mistake and the current version somthing he wishes he never did, I can tell you that normal people with common sense MAY NOT like to hear that about thier game they invest time in.
This is the type of problem we have now.... getting that info to them, so they can be informed and make a wiser choice of thier time. If anything sooner or later somthing will have to give.
I can also tell you that SOE is not really out there dumping huge money into anything SWG... this is a old project... it seems to be on the back burner now. LEC is not even out there promoting it heavy... so far it is know as the bastard child MMO -- I have NOT SEEN ONE, NOT ONE good review or one good thing said about the NGE from ANY DEV or even themselves... I mean that is the worst part--- THIER OWN COMPANY IS CALLING IT A MISTAKE FOR CRAP SAKE.
At what point do you ask yourself "WTF?" ---
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
If you're not in a position of authority, how can you be blamed for the way something turned out? At the end of a day, it's a job he has. If you want to keep you job and have bread on the table, you do as your boss says. Sure, he could have said no and refused to do it and that would please some people here, but it potentially sabotages his career since he's unlikely to get a good reference for it.
I see it simply for how it is. Before the lead designer position changed hands, we were being told that so many things we have now couldn't/wouldn't be done. Soon after that happened these same things started happening. These are things people have been asking for and you're going to have a hard time convincing me that I should be hating the Dev team for listening to what people have been asking for. Don't bring up the whole "they're not listening to cries for a rollback to classic servers" because that's moving backwards and we're back to the core issues we had.
As for Helios' posts and calling them tantrums, I think you and many others are reading WAY too much into them and making an issue of something that isn't really there.
This isn't about me sticking up for the game or for Helios, to me it's just common sense stuff, which I think is being lost here because people have become so involved in everything and aren't stepping back and looking at things. Alot here are blinded by their hate.
Tough position Obraik. I'm not sure what will infuriate folks worse, the fact that you still pay (pun intended) SWG or the fact that you're defending Helios.
The real blame for NGE should go on Julio (LA) and Smed (SWG). Tiggs proved that anyone who was not a "yes man" got the axe. Helios really should control himself on the boards though. There are some people in life who always know the right things to say. Then there are Helios . . . and ChrisCao . . .
For starters, nothing Obraik says can or will ever infuriate me. In fact I like Obraiks style. He is calm and easy going. The only thing frustrating is knowing we will never see eye to eye on how things are.
I also agree that the buck stops at the top. I guess my main point is that we were told these changes were so that they could code the game better and in less time than in the past. From my standpoint I have seen none of that come to fruition. Finishing expertise is still a ways off and population is way down because of how they made the game better. These are the common sense things I was talking about.
I would not have resubbed a couple of times if I did not want to like the game and give SOE the benefit of the doubt. If someone wants to humanize the devs I have no problem with that, they are after all HUMAN. They make mistakes. What bugs most people is that they can't acknowledge the mistakes where and when made and get pissy and unprofessional when people point out those mistakes.
I'm in no way asking for a rollback. I am asking for a great game. If that means as some here believe "Classic servers" then by all means, just tell us why it can't happen as it seems the issues with classic would have taken less time to fix and far less trouble to code then two revamps of the game. Ya know, common sense stuff.
Don't proclaim that "We knew we would lose some people..." proudly on G4 TV and then not be ready to eat crow and fix the mistake shoould it spiral out of control like it did. Where I come from it's called being a man and owning up to it. Until that happens from someone, anyone at SOE, then we have a problem.