Originally posted by 0over0 Originally posted by kain-iii With SWG in the cannon that it was in (Approx Episode 4 and 5) would it not be more fun without Jedi? That is not to say that there would be no force abilities at all. I mean what is SWG without the force? What got me thinking about this is if they do go with a KOTOR MMO we will never see the richness and diversity that we once had. Everyone would go jedi. I would much rather prefer Pre-CU without Jedi. That is not to say you could not become force sensitive with time and hard work. Force sensitive skills could vary greatly as well but very limited to what u could choose. Force throw, lightning, Run etc You would have to choose one. More or less just the village and gaining a skill. Smugglers would most likely be interested in mind tricks. You are not interested in the cargo I am carrying.. move along.. move along. Doctors with improved healing (force sensitivity) KOTOR really scares me that the SWG that we once loved will not be coming back ever. The only way i support Jedi is as it was in Pre-CU PERMA DEATH. But if i could choose it would be no jedi but only force sensitive abilitiies. Kotor also sounds like it will be a game and not a community. What was good about pre-cu is you could just be a regular Joe making your way through the star wars universe. The socialization aspect was great. Entertainers at the cantina, crafters, doctors, merchants, architects. So much socialization.
I think Republic Commando answered this question--it was a blast of a game, literally and figuratively. It all depends on how the game is designed. Anything, properly done, can be fun.
But, without Jedi, is it still Star Wars? Without hobbits, is it LotR? Without Hogwarts, is it Harry Potter? It can be, but that leaves large shoes to fill.
In Star Wars games where jedi took a backseat or werent in them all, the games still succeeded by a large percentage. You mentioned Republic Commando. No jedi in there (except yoda's holo image at the end) and it did wonderfully. Bounty Hunter also did quite well. So did the first Battlefront. And who can forget Dark Forces I? One the first big name FPS games.
EDIT: Also your analogies about LotR and Harry Potter are wrong. First Hogwarts could have been taken out and replace with something else entirely and people would still love the series. Second I hate to tell you this but most people wanted to be Aragon or Legolas then they did a hobbit. And if you want proof just how many characters named xXx_Frodo_xXx are there in other games compared to xXx_Legolas_xXx? I am also willing to bet that when LOTRO comes out there wont be more hobbit toons compared to human, elf and dwarf.
If they had never announced jedi as a possible profession we wouldnt be having this discussion right now and I seriously believe that SWG would have been a much bigger success then it is now. All they would have had to say, before release, was "Jedi will not be a playable profession because in this time period, jedi are extinct." and that would have been the end of it. Yes you might have a few wanting or giving ideas to implement them but it would never have been an issue.
I travel all over the world as a scuba diver. I have been to the far east, middle east, africa, and europe. I have seen just how popular Star Wars is in other countries. Its damn near scary. USA is actually down on the list of countries that love Star Wars IMHO.
In the Philippines Star Wars is so popular that Jeepnies (public transport there, think of extra long jeeps and people ride in the back) have Star Wars pictures on them. I saw Episode III there and in the theater it was literally standing room only. People actually stood in the isles and where they could during the entire movie just to see it.
Now they also have something there called a MMO Cafe. Similiar to a netcafe but people go there to play MMOs. You would think that SWG would be big there. MMOs like EQ2, WoW, and even AO are very popular there. But I never saw a single cafe offering up SWG. I even asked the owners of these places why no SWG. One of the main replies I got was "It isnt Star Wars because there are jedi." Heck one guy even went further to tell me "Luke, Obi Wan, and the green guy are the only jedi during that time." This guy didnt even know the green guy's name was Yoda but he damn well knew there werent supposed jedi in that time.
In Japan Star Wars is huge. There are theaters in Tokyo that still show Ep. IV. Conventions are massive. They released DVD versions there years before the USA. Yet SWG just wasnt popular. One of the main reasons? Because there is jedi in SWG.
Australia. Quite probably the biggest of all the countries for Star Wars fandom. These people go nuts for almost anything Star Wars. While I was there I would haunt the game stores because games are cheaper there even at release. And computer games...wow they are big there. Especially MMOs. Every game store I went too had most if not all of their original release SWG boxes. The reason? Because it doesnt follow continuity IE Jedi.......
If jedi had never even been offered I dare say alot more people would have played SWG. And alot of new players would have come in later.
I have two friends here. They are bigger Star Wars fans then me. One even has a Vader helmet signed by David Prose and James Earl Jones. They know more about Star Wars then I do and I am considered to know quite alot. When SWG was announced to being made they were nuts. They wanted to play it more then anything. All the time they would talk about it. But then it was announced jedi would be a possible player profession and they didnt want to play anymore. They havent played the game. But they laugh everytime they hear about some piece of continuity busted. Incidently at C3 both were dressed as jedi and both love anything jedi except SWG.
So in closing I truly belieev that if jedi had never been offered up as a possibility, then SWG would have been a much bigger success with alot more subs. Maybe not WoW success but it wouldnt have surprised me. Yes some would leave but more would have come in to replace the leavers.
just my thoughts since jedi was in the release eventually people would get it, eventualy i did, would i have played without the ability to get jedi? yes but the game would have had to been a much better game, content and alot less bugs, for me to continue playing, but then im not nuts about starwars i like it but dont go crazy over it.
and when continuity met reality (virtual) i just ignored the paradox.
I think I played the game for a solid 8-9 months before I saw my first jedi. Hell, it took me that long to complete my Bounty Hunter grind. I loved that sometimes you'd here people talking in the cantina about actually spotting a jedi, but it was a while before I actually saw one.
I think the game was fine without all the jedi. Of course, killing them was lots of fun. There was nothing like riding up on my swoop on some poor slub grinding away in the middle of nowhere, flying off of the swoop and firing away before I even hit the ground. I miss that...
"I would have to say that the most iconic and most moving character is Darth Vader. The entire saga is really about the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin. Star Wars is his personal story. " - Geroge Lucas
Check out the DVD's, He says the same thing. Star Wars is many things to many folks, but to George its this.
I agree totally that if they never mentioned having Jedi in SWG it would have been fine. It fell into the timeline that was developed by Lucas. I never disagreed with that. But, they destroyed that the very moment they hinted of Jedi in beta. From then on, there was never any doubt in anyones mind that there wouldn't be Jedi in SWG. It was just a matter of when.
Now can they make another game without them? Sure, you even brought up Republic Commando. A great game to be sure but a niche game none the less. You even supported my thought on most games needing Jedi by mentioning Yoda at the end. They constantly have to throw something in that revovles around Jedi for the masses. Would I love to see more of these niche types games? You bet, but as an MMO it just won't work for the main body of fans out there if it doesn't somehow have or involve Jedi.
Now if they developed a MMO where there is so many other thigns to do besides be a Jedi then you have a hit. Content, missions, storylines, diplomacy (a major theme severley lacking in SW games now a days), solid crafting abilities, a developed space arena are a must. There are so many side stories that folks could develop and go with if the tools are there to do it in a new SW MMO. Focus folks more on the other aspects of the Star Wars universe but never leave out Jedi.
Make Jedi hard to get, hard to train in, long time to Master (and I am talking 1+ years, not 6 months of smacking Bols day in and day out) with rigourous requirements to keep (can't be "good" and go slaughtering folks for fun). Fighting was always a last resort (unless Sith were involved), have them use diplomacy and negotiations to reslove and reward situations. Make punishments tough and the rewards nice, but not overwhelming.
I believe with a solid foundation you can have the best of both worlds working together on it. Remove one or the other (No Jedi or all Jedi) and it will flop as an MMO.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Without Jedi, I'd probably even have more fun actually. The pre-hologrinding days are some of the best fun I've had. I didn't mind the hologrind, except when holocrons suddenly became extremely common after the Christmas-giveaway. That was a really silly mistake.
There is no doubt that being a jedi is fun. I very much enjoyed being a jedi but at what cost?
They way the route to jedi was set up would lead to the game becoming nearly one proffession.
32 proffessions not anymore. If you wanted to compete you needed be a jedi. Jedi also gave a extra slot.
Jedi had a eliteness, popularity, and gave u a extra slot. With jedi (extra slot) the perks were high you received 2 characters , 20 plots of land, etc. Why wouldn't everyone go jedi? Hence the downfall of just being a regular joe making his way through the star wars galaxy.
The original purpose of the second slot was because jedi had perma death. It was not made really to be a perk.
Perma Death was meant to keep Jedi a very limited thing. Because jedi was so limitedyou could not make it a dominant proffession which is why you had a second slot.Your game was still to be focused around being a regular joe making his way through the galaxy.
However even with perma death jedi was still a problem. For many just seeing a jedi and knowing that they would never be one was a dissappointment. It meant not being on equal terms.
I think the game would be far more successful if the focus of the game was being just a regular joe making his way through the star wars univerise. You could be whoever u wanted to be. If you wanted to gain some elite skills you could join a faction and through faction and rank earn abilities that would allow you to role play.
A touch of the force in the game. Maybe. But more or less just a village thing with just one skill to enhance whatever proffession it is you ALREADY HAD.
The BH vs Jedi gone forever?? Not really there is still the possibility that whatever proffession you had and openingly used your force skill in public would put on the terminals. However this time it would not just be Jedi vs BH but all the proffessions.
The game was actually more fun long before the first jedi was unlocked. We didnt need or want them around. All jedi succeeded in doing was to distract the player base from the basics of the game which were community, role play and commerce. When Jedi became the emphasis of the entire game we lost all the we had built.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
" Make Jedi hard to get, hard to train in, long time to Master (and I am talking 1+ years, not 6 months of smacking Bols day in and day out) with rigourous requirements to keep (can't be "good" and go slaughtering folks for fun). Fighting was always a last resort (unless Sith were involved), have them use diplomacy and negotiations to reslove and reward situations. Make punishments tough and the rewards nice, but not overwhelming. "
I don't believe this is the answer. Once some become jedi it will be the downfall of the game. How would u feel as a new player checking out swg one year into the game. You will not be able to compete evenly or even reach even status for one year???
Or how about people that just wanted to be part of the star wars universe? Even though they don't have the time to aquire such a accomplishment I am sure they would like the fact of being on equal terms.
I would rather see the game focused around the Social aspect, GCW, Exploring, PVE, Questing etc.
Originally posted by KzinKiller Hell no, ask anybody who played from Opening Day (well, Day 2, when you could actually get in) until the Hologrind. Galaxies' heyday was before the first Jedi unlocked, and we had a blast.
I too played back then, before mounts, before speeders, I had some of the best times back then and never gave a thought to jedi or the fact that one day there would be jedi in the game. It didn't matter one bit.
Originally posted by starman999 No..... The game was actually more fun long before the first jedi was unlocked. We didnt need or want them around. All jedi succeeded in doing was to distract the player base from the basics of the game which were community, role play and commerce. When Jedi became the emphasis of the entire game we lost all the we had built.
Again, Im not disagreeing that it was fun before the first unlock, but that fact is many folks played to try and unlock because it was available from the get go. If they said Jedi were never to be seen in game or was going to be a rare "once in a game lifetime" type event then I still would have played.
Jedi would have remianed a scarce thing if permadeath was kept in. As some one stated earlier in this post I believe, that was the purpose of giving Jedi unlock a second slot. The idea was that you could lose it at any time but still have a central character in game to work on. Once they removed that, let them keep their second slot AND the power level they were at then the game was doomed.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
I don't believe this is the answer. Once some become jedi it will be the downfall of the game. How would u feel as a new player checking out swg one year into the game. You will not be able to compete evenly or even reach even status for one year??? Or how about people that just wanted to be part of the star wars universe? Even though they don't have the time to aquire such a accomplishment I am sure they would like the fact of being on equal terms. I would rather see the game focused around the Social aspect, GCW, Exploring, PVE, Questing etc.
Why should Jedi have to compete with anything? You can make the same generalization about crafetrs businesses, top level combatants or anything. If folks want to come into a game and compete at the same level as everyone they should be redirected to Battlefront 1 and 2.
Again, reread what I wrote. Give non-Jedi a ton of content, tools and resources to live out their "lives" without having to worry about Jedi if they don't want. But, if that is something they want to persue then let them. Why should we restrict professions because they were designed and implemented poorly in a game long past?
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Originally posted by starman999 No..... The game was actually more fun long before the first jedi was unlocked. We didnt need or want them around. All jedi succeeded in doing was to distract the player base from the basics of the game which were community, role play and commerce. When Jedi became the emphasis of the entire game we lost all the we had built.
WHo are the "we" you are refering to ? If so many galaxies players didn't want to be Jedi , Why did so many drop what they were doing and take up the holo grind ? Then later on even more took up the village grind ,WHy ? If they didn't want to be jedi ?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I can not or will I try to speak for anyone but myself. I played a wookiee that was a TKA/CH for a very long time and the reason I went to the villiage was for something different to do. I never had a desire to be a Jedi in swg. I got my jedi fix from playing Kotr.
So I guess I am on of the few that never wanted to be a jedi but went to the village for change of pace from what I normally did. For me I was happy with just NPC jedi to fight even after I had one spawn on the beach or tryena to kill me while I was sampleing lol.
Does there need to be jedi in swg to be fun for me...no. Like so many things it is in the eye of the beholder.
Originally posted by BaronJuJu "I would have to say that the most iconic and most moving character is Darth Vader. The entire saga is really about the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin. Star Wars is his personal story. " - Geroge Lucashttp://www.supershadow.com/george_lucas/interview/24.html Check out the DVD's, He says the same thing. Star Wars is many things to many folks, but to George its this.George has said in many interviews that Star Wars is a story told through the eyes of two droids. Its the tale of those two droids and what they experianced. I dont want to get into a whole new dicsussion about point of view but here is one example.Since its almost halloween lets look at a classic horror movie, Frankenstien. Directed by James Whale. Most people will tell you its the story of the monster. But in actuality, from Whale himself, its the story of monster told through the eyes of the Doctor. Its about the Doctor. I agree totally that if they never mentioned having Jedi in SWG it would have been fine. It fell into the timeline that was developed by Lucas. I never disagreed with that. But, they destroyed that the very moment they hinted of Jedi in beta. From then on, there was never any doubt in anyones mind that there wouldn't be Jedi in SWG. It was just a matter of when. Now can they make another game without them? Sure, you even brought up Republic Commando. A great game to be sure but a niche game none the less. You even supported my thought on most games needing Jedi by mentioning Yoda at the end. They constantly have to throw something in that revovles around Jedi for the masses. Would I love to see more of these niche types games? You bet, but as an MMO it just won't work for the main body of fans out there if it doesn't somehow have or involve Jedi.If they had put in an ARC Trooper's holo image at the end instead of Yoda's, I seriously doubt the game would have failed. In fact I dare say no one would have cared or even noticed. They added Yoda because he was the one to go Kashykk if you remember Ep. III. They needed a movie tie in. That was all Yoda was there for. He wasnt there because they needed a jedi. He was there to tie RC with Ep. III. Now if they developed a MMO where there is so many other thigns to do besides be a Jedi then you have a hit. Content, missions, storylines, diplomacy (a major theme severley lacking in SW games now a days), solid crafting abilities, a developed space arena are a must. There are so many side stories that folks could develop and go with if the tools are there to do it in a new SW MMO. Focus folks more on the other aspects of the Star Wars universe but never leave out Jedi.Before holos they had a game without jedi. A game where people could explore other aspects of the universe. And it worked quite well. But they brought in jedi and then focused 90% of the attention on jedi. They geared everything in that game to jedi. That caused major damage to the game. If they had left it out they would have had alot more players because alot of potential players refused to play SWG because jedi were in there. Make Jedi hard to get, hard to train in, long time to Master (and I am talking 1+ years, not 6 months of smacking Bols day in and day out) with rigourous requirements to keep (can't be "good" and go slaughtering folks for fun). Fighting was always a last resort (unless Sith were involved), have them use diplomacy and negotiations to reslove and reward situations. Make punishments tough and the rewards nice, but not overwhelming.They tried early on to make jedi tough. But it still didnt work. Because of the true vocal minority. The same guys who used to flame people who had said permadeath was harsh before jedi in turn made the loudest complaints once they saw it for themselves. That is the true problem. You cant put an alpha class in a MMO and balance it out. No matter what you do its either not enough or too much. That in and of itself is the single best reason why jedi should have been kept out of the game. I believe with a solid foundation you can have the best of both worlds working together on it. Remove one or the other (No Jedi or all Jedi) and it will flop as an MMO.How can you have the best of both worlds though? This is my point. If you make it possible to obtain jedi you way then you have your best of both worlds but you must make it obtainable by everyone. Hence eventually everyone (or a majority) will have it. So its all jedi now and as you said a flop. So for what? maybe a year the game is in perfect sync but then more and jedi pop up (which is exactly what happened last time) and the game takes a hit.
WHo are the "we" you are refering to ? If so many galaxies players didn't want to be Jedi , Why did so many drop what they were doing and take up the holo grind ? Then later on even more took up the village grind ,WHy ? If they didn't want to be jedi ? The village gave some nice quest items and had great battles. Getting access to it gave me an incentive to try out some of the game's advanced content, like theme parks and the Corvette. I was training up force crafting skills and the healing line, and considering the scouting line. I only unlocked some of the combat lines because I was putting together the Aurillian sculpture.
Originally posted by kaibigan34 Before holos they had a game without jedi. A game where people could explore other aspects of the universe. And it worked quite well. But they brought in jedi and then focused 90% of the attention on jedi. They geared everything in that game to jedi. That caused major damage to the game. If they had left it out they would have had alot more players because alot of potential players refused to play SWG because jedi were in there. Holos came out after Jedi were already in game. Jedi were ALWAYS going to be brought in, there was no getting around that. As others have said on here, alot of folks were there to try and unlock from the beginning. You're right about the focus though. The focus was almost exclusively on them and it made them hated by alot of players. They tried early on to make jedi tough. But it still didnt work. Because of the true vocal minority. The same guys who used to flame people who had said permadeath was harsh before jedi in turn made the loudest complaints once they saw it for themselves. That is the true problem. You cant put an alpha class in a MMO and balance it out. No matter what you do its either not enough or too much. That in and of itself is the single best reason why jedi should have been kept out of the game.
Thats what I have been saying, don't make Jedi an ALPHA class in the next game. I have said this repeatedly in my posts on this. The fact that Jedi were an ALPHA class preCU is what destroyed it early on, not the mere fact they were there. If they would have removed permadeath along with removal of the second slot and made them on par with all other combat professions not as many folks would have gravitated to it. How can you have the best of both worlds though? This is my point. If you make it possible to obtain jedi you way then you have your best of both worlds but you must make it obtainable by everyone. Hence eventually everyone (or a majority) will have it. So its all jedi now and as you said a flop. So for what? maybe a year the game is in perfect sync but then more and jedi pop up (which is exactly what happened last time) and the game takes a hit. You are again assuming Jedi have to be an ALPHA, which I think they don't. Make them a unique class that is hard to get, takes a long time to master and you could limit there numbers if that is the desire by the developers, but let the player have the option to pursue it if they want. You also assume that if Jedi is given everyone will take it, thats just not true. Hell look at NGE right now or preCU and CU. You saw Jedi along with alot of other professions, not just streets filled with glowsticks. Folks will pick what they want. If Jedi weren't in the game the community would find another class and claim them as powerful and tons would flock there, be it BH, Officer, what have you. Go out there and look at any class based MMO, they all do it.
My coments are in yellow.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Originally posted by BaronJuJu Originally posted by kain-iii I don't believe this is the answer. Once some become jedi it will be the downfall of the game. How would u feel as a new player checking out swg one year into the game. You will not be able to compete evenly or even reach even status for one year??? Or how about people that just wanted to be part of the star wars universe? Even though they don't have the time to aquire such a accomplishment I am sure they would like the fact of being on equal terms. I would rather see the game focused around the Social aspect, GCW, Exploring, PVE, Questing etc.
Why should Jedi have to compete with anything? You can make the same generalization about crafetrs businesses, top level combatants or anything. If folks want to come into a game and compete at the same level as everyone they should be redirected to Battlefront 1 and 2.
Again, reread what I wrote. Give non-Jedi a ton of content, tools and resources to live out their "lives" without having to worry about Jedi if they don't want. But, if that is something they want to persue then let them. Why should we restrict professions because they were designed and implemented poorly in a game long past?
This is actually an idea I offered up along time ago after reading the forums. I have to go to work soon so dont know how long I got so it might have to rewritten later.
Force Sensitve. Allow that in game. Almost like the way the village set up the skill trees. But make them cost the same as other professions. This way you can have a force sensitive TKA but not a force sensitive TKA/Pistoleer. You can have a force sensitive doctor but not a force sensitive doctor/pikeman. With me so far?
You make the requirements to get force sensitive long and hard. I am talking huge. No grind though. Either long timed quests or the original vision of jedi obtainment through unknown factors. Once someone unlocks force sensitive the real problem begins. The Inquisitorius hunted down, not only jedi, but force sensitives. So once you start using your new found powers you start gaining their attention. Player bounties, visits from Inq. members, and even Vader's Dark Knights start ruining your day. But your not a jedi and no perma death. Just alot of hassle.
On to jedi. An even longer more painful list of quests or unknown factors. Heck maybe both. Then the PD starts. And it goes on as per the old system.
Now! Lets look at other things. Some players wanted Stormtrooper IDs. RK 303 and LK 175 as examples. So toss in an Imperial training camp full of quests and missions to obtain said level. Even a low rated suit of armor but you can get crafters to make you a better suit. Lets go even further and add in advanced training as well such as Scout training on Endor, Commando training on Yavin, and so on. Even more quests to obtain more ranks and more IDs. Not game breaking and certainly not unbalanced.
You can also do this with the rebel faction. Dont forget the rebels werent just Han, Leia, Luke and Chewie. There were actually cells everywhere. The movies just focuses on one cell that later included others in RotJ. And you can add in the criminal side of things with Jabba, Nym, and Kardde. Lastly crafters can get into true guilds run by the game itself. Can still join PAs too but also NPC guilds.
So why bring up all this other stuff too. Simple. If someone chooses to go into the Stormtrooper academy they cant unlock FS. If someone chooses to unlock FS they cant go into the rebel training schools.
Would it work? I dont know. Honestly I doubt it. But who knows. I know one thing. The programming involved would take 200 to 300 people a year to complete it all.
I don't believe this is the answer. Once some become jedi it will be the downfall of the game. How would u feel as a new player checking out swg one year into the game. You will not be able to compete evenly or even reach even status for one year??? Or how about people that just wanted to be part of the star wars universe? Even though they don't have the time to aquire such a accomplishment I am sure they would like the fact of being on equal terms. I would rather see the game focused around the Social aspect, GCW, Exploring, PVE, Questing etc.
Why should Jedi have to compete with anything? You can make the same generalization about crafetrs businesses, top level combatants or anything. If folks want to come into a game and compete at the same level as everyone they should be redirected to Battlefront 1 and 2.
Again, reread what I wrote. Give non-Jedi a ton of content, tools and resources to live out their "lives" without having to worry about Jedi if they don't want. But, if that is something they want to persue then let them. Why should we restrict professions because they were designed and implemented poorly in a game long past?
This is actually an idea I offered up along time ago after reading the forums. I have to go to work soon so dont know how long I got so it might have to rewritten later.
Force Sensitve. Allow that in game. Almost like the way the village set up the skill trees. But make them cost the same as other professions. This way you can have a force sensitive TKA but not a force sensitive TKA/Pistoleer. You can have a force sensitive doctor but not a force sensitive doctor/pikeman. With me so far?
You make the requirements to get force sensitive long and hard. I am talking huge. No grind though. Either long timed quests or the original vision of jedi obtainment through unknown factors. Once someone unlocks force sensitive the real problem begins. The Inquisitorius hunted down, not only jedi, but force sensitives. So once you start using your new found powers you start gaining their attention. Player bounties, visits from Inq. members, and even Vader Dark Knights start ruining your day. But your not a jedi and no perma death. Just alot of hassle.
On to jedi. An even longer more painful list of quests or unknown factors. Heck maybe both. Then the PD starts. And it goes on as per the old system.
Now! Lets look at other things. Some players wanted Stormtrooper IDs. RK 303 and LK 175 as examples. So toss in an Imperial training camp full of quests and missions to obtain said level. Even a low rated suit of armor but you can craters to make you a better suit. Lets go even further and add in advanced training as well such as Scout training on Endor, Commando training on Yavin, and so on. Even more quests to obtain more ranks and more IDs. Not game breaking and certainly not unbalanced.
You can also do this with the rebel faction. Dont forget the rebels werent just Han, Leia, Luke and Chewie. There were actually cells everywhere. The movies just focuses on one cell that later included others in RotJ. And you can add in the criminal side of things with Jabba, Nym, and Kardde. Lastly crafters can get into true guilds run by the game itself. Can still join PAs too but also NPC guilds.
So why bring up all this other stuff too. Simple. If someone chooses to go into the Stormtrooper academy they cant unlock FS. If someone chooses to unlock FS they go into the rebel training schools.
Would it work? I dont know. Honestly I doubt it. But who knows. I know one thing. The programming involved would take 200 to 300 people a year to complete it all.
Kai
I like it, tons of stuff for the non-Jedi and if you want to go down the Jedi path its gonna cost ya. I just wouldn't set it in the EP 4-6 timeframe anymore. Put it in a loose KOTOR time and it would fit perfectly. Instead of Reb vs. Imp you could have Sith vs. Republic. Maybe even a post Ep.6 timeline would work, EP 4-6 has been used and abused too much anymore.
Whoever decides to take on a beast of an MMO IP like Star Wars next time has got their hands full.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Jedi shmedi i never wanted to be 1,i missed my friends who disapeared to grind theres up,i only thought there was 1 good jedi anyways Obi Wan.... and maybe Yoda,
Imo it ruined the game caused a ton of division in the game diverted dev resources from other critical areas, like bug fixes and content need i really go on imo the only good jedi was a dead jedi
now dont get me wrong everyone payed there own 15bucks a month and it was the only real content Soe added i cant blame people for grinding it and wanting it cause its starwarsy
nah jedi not for me i wanted to be that guy over there sitting at the booth in the cantina, the guy who trained the dewbacks,the moisture farmer who came into town once a month to resupply...
Of course SWG doesnt/didnt need jedi to be fun, in fact the game started going downhill with the hologrind. Things were alot of fun at least from my perspective up until holos wrecked the community. Now, thats not to say that jedi couldnt have been implemented in a good way and been a blessing. But the question was whether or not they were needed for SWG to be fun, and the answer is a definitive NO....
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Originally posted by kain-iii With SWG in the cannon that it was in (Approx Episode 4 and 5) would it not be more fun without Jedi?
That's like saying LoTR could do without the ring, or Dracula and w/no vampires or Fantasy without magic. The main reason I hated SWG before NGE was the fact I couldn't be a jedi without some obscenely stupid process.
I dunno how some people could want to play a game and be some generic boob that makes robots or whatever. I play games to imagine, not to just move my RL boring job to a in game boring job.
Originally posted by Celestian Originally posted by kain-iii With SWG in the cannon that it was in (Approx Episode 4 and 5) would it not be more fun without Jedi?
That's like saying LoTR could do without the ring, or Dracula and w/no vampires or Fantasy without magic. The main reason I hated SWG before NGE was the fact I couldn't be a jedi without some obscenely stupid process.
I dunno how some people could want to play a game and be some generic boob that makes robots or whatever. I play games to imagine, not to just move my RL boring job to a in game boring job.
I was a Ranger/Rifleman most of my time playing. But I wasnt some generic boob. I was, not bragging, the most popular ranger on my server. I led hunts 3 times a week and people paid me up 100k each just to get in on one. I knew every planet like the back of my hand and knew where everything spawned. I knew aggro ranges of mobs and what hurt each different mob. Also what type of damage or specials they had.
Later I changed to a Shipwright to help my guild and had people knocking down my door to get my ship parts. In two weeks I made over 60 million credits from it. I was the first person on my server to get a KSE firespray schematic. And by the time I switched back to Ranger I had 15 of them up for sale while most other shipwrights had only 1 or 2. Other aspiring shipwrights begged me to teach them the ins and outs of crafting ship parts.
That was the beauty of the game prior to jedi. You had so many choices. Literally thousands. No two toons were the same. Even the template stackers didnt have the same builds. They had different ideas. But as jedi got more prevelant you had a very limited amount of choices. Once the village hit and PD was taken out you had two choices. You could either become a jedi or be saber fodder. That was it in PVP.
You say you dont want to be a generic boob. Once jedi got numerous then being a jedi was being a generic boob because half the server were jedi. You cant be special when everyone around you is the same as you.
Originally posted by Celestian Originally posted by kain-iii With SWG in the cannon that it was in (Approx Episode 4 and 5) would it not be more fun without Jedi?
That's like saying LoTR could do without the ring, or Dracula and w/no vampires or Fantasy without magic. The main reason I hated SWG before NGE was the fact I couldn't be a jedi without some obscenely stupid process.
I dunno how some people could want to play a game and be some generic boob that makes robots or whatever. I play games to imagine, not to just move my RL boring job to a in game boring job.
You should send your resume to SOE at once. You'd fit right in at their Austin studio.
Comments
I think Republic Commando answered this question--it was a blast of a game, literally and figuratively. It all depends on how the game is designed. Anything, properly done, can be fun.
But, without Jedi, is it still Star Wars? Without hobbits, is it LotR? Without Hogwarts, is it Harry Potter? It can be, but that leaves large shoes to fill.
In Star Wars games where jedi took a backseat or werent in them all, the games still succeeded by a large percentage. You mentioned Republic Commando. No jedi in there (except yoda's holo image at the end) and it did wonderfully. Bounty Hunter also did quite well. So did the first Battlefront. And who can forget Dark Forces I? One the first big name FPS games.
EDIT: Also your analogies about LotR and Harry Potter are wrong. First Hogwarts could have been taken out and replace with something else entirely and people would still love the series. Second I hate to tell you this but most people wanted to be Aragon or Legolas then they did a hobbit. And if you want proof just how many characters named xXx_Frodo_xXx are there in other games compared to xXx_Legolas_xXx? I am also willing to bet that when LOTRO comes out there wont be more hobbit toons compared to human, elf and dwarf.
Kai
If they had never announced jedi as a possible profession we wouldnt be having this discussion right now and I seriously believe that SWG would have been a much bigger success then it is now. All they would have had to say, before release, was "Jedi will not be a playable profession because in this time period, jedi are extinct." and that would have been the end of it. Yes you might have a few wanting or giving ideas to implement them but it would never have been an issue.
I travel all over the world as a scuba diver. I have been to the far east, middle east, africa, and europe. I have seen just how popular Star Wars is in other countries. Its damn near scary. USA is actually down on the list of countries that love Star Wars IMHO.
In the Philippines Star Wars is so popular that Jeepnies (public transport there, think of extra long jeeps and people ride in the back) have Star Wars pictures on them. I saw Episode III there and in the theater it was literally standing room only. People actually stood in the isles and where they could during the entire movie just to see it.
Now they also have something there called a MMO Cafe. Similiar to a netcafe but people go there to play MMOs. You would think that SWG would be big there. MMOs like EQ2, WoW, and even AO are very popular there. But I never saw a single cafe offering up SWG. I even asked the owners of these places why no SWG. One of the main replies I got was "It isnt Star Wars because there are jedi." Heck one guy even went further to tell me "Luke, Obi Wan, and the green guy are the only jedi during that time." This guy didnt even know the green guy's name was Yoda but he damn well knew there werent supposed jedi in that time.
In Japan Star Wars is huge. There are theaters in Tokyo that still show Ep. IV. Conventions are massive. They released DVD versions there years before the USA. Yet SWG just wasnt popular. One of the main reasons? Because there is jedi in SWG.
Australia. Quite probably the biggest of all the countries for Star Wars fandom. These people go nuts for almost anything Star Wars. While I was there I would haunt the game stores because games are cheaper there even at release. And computer games...wow they are big there. Especially MMOs. Every game store I went too had most if not all of their original release SWG boxes. The reason? Because it doesnt follow continuity IE Jedi.......
If jedi had never even been offered I dare say alot more people would have played SWG. And alot of new players would have come in later.
I have two friends here. They are bigger Star Wars fans then me. One even has a Vader helmet signed by David Prose and James Earl Jones. They know more about Star Wars then I do and I am considered to know quite alot. When SWG was announced to being made they were nuts. They wanted to play it more then anything. All the time they would talk about it. But then it was announced jedi would be a possible player profession and they didnt want to play anymore. They havent played the game. But they laugh everytime they hear about some piece of continuity busted. Incidently at C3 both were dressed as jedi and both love anything jedi except SWG.
So in closing I truly belieev that if jedi had never been offered up as a possibility, then SWG would have been a much bigger success with alot more subs. Maybe not WoW success but it wouldnt have surprised me. Yes some would leave but more would have come in to replace the leavers.
Kai
just my thoughts since jedi was in the release eventually people would get it, eventualy i did, would i have played without the ability to get jedi? yes but the game would have had to been a much better game, content and alot less bugs, for me to continue playing, but then im not nuts about starwars i like it but dont go crazy over it.
and when continuity met reality (virtual) i just ignored the paradox.
I think I played the game for a solid 8-9 months before I saw my first jedi. Hell, it took me that long to complete my Bounty Hunter grind. I loved that sometimes you'd here people talking in the cantina about actually spotting a jedi, but it was a while before I actually saw one.
I think the game was fine without all the jedi. Of course, killing them was lots of fun. There was nothing like riding up on my swoop on some poor slub grinding away in the middle of nowhere, flying off of the swoop and firing away before I even hit the ground. I miss that...
"I would have to say that the most iconic and most moving character is Darth Vader. The entire saga is really about the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin. Star Wars is his personal story. " - Geroge Lucas
http://www.supershadow.com/george_lucas/interview/24.html
Check out the DVD's, He says the same thing. Star Wars is many things to many folks, but to George its this.
I agree totally that if they never mentioned having Jedi in SWG it would have been fine. It fell into the timeline that was developed by Lucas. I never disagreed with that. But, they destroyed that the very moment they hinted of Jedi in beta. From then on, there was never any doubt in anyones mind that there wouldn't be Jedi in SWG. It was just a matter of when.
Now can they make another game without them? Sure, you even brought up Republic Commando. A great game to be sure but a niche game none the less. You even supported my thought on most games needing Jedi by mentioning Yoda at the end. They constantly have to throw something in that revovles around Jedi for the masses. Would I love to see more of these niche types games? You bet, but as an MMO it just won't work for the main body of fans out there if it doesn't somehow have or involve Jedi.
Now if they developed a MMO where there is so many other thigns to do besides be a Jedi then you have a hit. Content, missions, storylines, diplomacy (a major theme severley lacking in SW games now a days), solid crafting abilities, a developed space arena are a must. There are so many side stories that folks could develop and go with if the tools are there to do it in a new SW MMO. Focus folks more on the other aspects of the Star Wars universe but never leave out Jedi.
Make Jedi hard to get, hard to train in, long time to Master (and I am talking 1+ years, not 6 months of smacking Bols day in and day out) with rigourous requirements to keep (can't be "good" and go slaughtering folks for fun). Fighting was always a last resort (unless Sith were involved), have them use diplomacy and negotiations to reslove and reward situations. Make punishments tough and the rewards nice, but not overwhelming.
I believe with a solid foundation you can have the best of both worlds working together on it. Remove one or the other (No Jedi or all Jedi) and it will flop as an MMO.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
There is no doubt that being a jedi is fun. I very much enjoyed being a jedi but at what cost?
They way the route to jedi was set up would lead to the game becoming nearly one proffession.
32 proffessions not anymore. If you wanted to compete you needed be a jedi. Jedi also gave a extra slot.
Jedi had a eliteness, popularity, and gave u a extra slot. With jedi (extra slot) the perks were high you received 2 characters , 20 plots of land, etc. Why wouldn't everyone go jedi? Hence the downfall of just being a regular joe making his way through the star wars galaxy.
The original purpose of the second slot was because jedi had perma death. It was not made really to be a perk.
Perma Death was meant to keep Jedi a very limited thing. Because jedi was so limited you could not make it a dominant proffession which is why you had a second slot. Your game was still to be focused around being a regular joe making his way through the galaxy.
However even with perma death jedi was still a problem. For many just seeing a jedi and knowing that they would never be one was a dissappointment. It meant not being on equal terms.
I think the game would be far more successful if the focus of the game was being just a regular joe making his way through the star wars univerise. You could be whoever u wanted to be. If you wanted to gain some elite skills you could join a faction and through faction and rank earn abilities that would allow you to role play.
A touch of the force in the game. Maybe. But more or less just a village thing with just one skill to enhance whatever proffession it is you ALREADY HAD.
The BH vs Jedi gone forever?? Not really there is still the possibility that whatever proffession you had and openingly used your force skill in public would put on the terminals. However this time it would not just be Jedi vs BH but all the proffessions.
No.....
The game was actually more fun long before the first jedi was unlocked. We didnt need or want them around. All jedi succeeded in doing was to distract the player base from the basics of the game which were community, role play and commerce. When Jedi became the emphasis of the entire game we lost all the we had built.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Again, Im not disagreeing that it was fun before the first unlock, but that fact is many folks played to try and unlock because it was available from the get go. If they said Jedi were never to be seen in game or was going to be a rare "once in a game lifetime" type event then I still would have played.
Jedi would have remianed a scarce thing if permadeath was kept in. As some one stated earlier in this post I believe, that was the purpose of giving Jedi unlock a second slot. The idea was that you could lose it at any time but still have a central character in game to work on. Once they removed that, let them keep their second slot AND the power level they were at then the game was doomed.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Why should Jedi have to compete with anything? You can make the same generalization about crafetrs businesses, top level combatants or anything. If folks want to come into a game and compete at the same level as everyone they should be redirected to Battlefront 1 and 2.
Again, reread what I wrote. Give non-Jedi a ton of content, tools and resources to live out their "lives" without having to worry about Jedi if they don't want. But, if that is something they want to persue then let them. Why should we restrict professions because they were designed and implemented poorly in a game long past?
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I can not or will I try to speak for anyone but myself. I played a wookiee that was a TKA/CH for a very long time and the reason I went to the villiage was for something different to do. I never had a desire to be a Jedi in swg. I got my jedi fix from playing Kotr.
So I guess I am on of the few that never wanted to be a jedi but went to the village for change of pace from what I normally did. For me I was happy with just NPC jedi to fight even after I had one spawn on the beach or tryena to kill me while I was sampleing lol.
Does there need to be jedi in swg to be fun for me...no. Like so many things it is in the eye of the beholder.
The village gave some nice quest items and had great battles. Getting access to it gave me an incentive to try out some of the game's advanced content, like theme parks and the Corvette. I was training up force crafting skills and the healing line, and considering the scouting line. I only unlocked some of the combat lines because I was putting together the Aurillian sculpture.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Why should Jedi have to compete with anything? You can make the same generalization about crafetrs businesses, top level combatants or anything. If folks want to come into a game and compete at the same level as everyone they should be redirected to Battlefront 1 and 2.
Again, reread what I wrote. Give non-Jedi a ton of content, tools and resources to live out their "lives" without having to worry about Jedi if they don't want. But, if that is something they want to persue then let them. Why should we restrict professions because they were designed and implemented poorly in a game long past?
This is actually an idea I offered up along time ago after reading the forums. I have to go to work soon so dont know how long I got so it might have to rewritten later.
Force Sensitve. Allow that in game. Almost like the way the village set up the skill trees. But make them cost the same as other professions. This way you can have a force sensitive TKA but not a force sensitive TKA/Pistoleer. You can have a force sensitive doctor but not a force sensitive doctor/pikeman. With me so far?
You make the requirements to get force sensitive long and hard. I am talking huge. No grind though. Either long timed quests or the original vision of jedi obtainment through unknown factors. Once someone unlocks force sensitive the real problem begins. The Inquisitorius hunted down, not only jedi, but force sensitives. So once you start using your new found powers you start gaining their attention. Player bounties, visits from Inq. members, and even Vader's Dark Knights start ruining your day. But your not a jedi and no perma death. Just alot of hassle.
On to jedi. An even longer more painful list of quests or unknown factors. Heck maybe both. Then the PD starts. And it goes on as per the old system.
Now! Lets look at other things. Some players wanted Stormtrooper IDs. RK 303 and LK 175 as examples. So toss in an Imperial training camp full of quests and missions to obtain said level. Even a low rated suit of armor but you can get crafters to make you a better suit. Lets go even further and add in advanced training as well such as Scout training on Endor, Commando training on Yavin, and so on. Even more quests to obtain more ranks and more IDs. Not game breaking and certainly not unbalanced.
You can also do this with the rebel faction. Dont forget the rebels werent just Han, Leia, Luke and Chewie. There were actually cells everywhere. The movies just focuses on one cell that later included others in RotJ. And you can add in the criminal side of things with Jabba, Nym, and Kardde. Lastly crafters can get into true guilds run by the game itself. Can still join PAs too but also NPC guilds.
So why bring up all this other stuff too. Simple. If someone chooses to go into the Stormtrooper academy they cant unlock FS. If someone chooses to unlock FS they cant go into the rebel training schools.
Would it work? I dont know. Honestly I doubt it. But who knows. I know one thing. The programming involved would take 200 to 300 people a year to complete it all.
Kai
Why should Jedi have to compete with anything? You can make the same generalization about crafetrs businesses, top level combatants or anything. If folks want to come into a game and compete at the same level as everyone they should be redirected to Battlefront 1 and 2.
Again, reread what I wrote. Give non-Jedi a ton of content, tools and resources to live out their "lives" without having to worry about Jedi if they don't want. But, if that is something they want to persue then let them. Why should we restrict professions because they were designed and implemented poorly in a game long past?
This is actually an idea I offered up along time ago after reading the forums. I have to go to work soon so dont know how long I got so it might have to rewritten later.
Force Sensitve. Allow that in game. Almost like the way the village set up the skill trees. But make them cost the same as other professions. This way you can have a force sensitive TKA but not a force sensitive TKA/Pistoleer. You can have a force sensitive doctor but not a force sensitive doctor/pikeman. With me so far?
You make the requirements to get force sensitive long and hard. I am talking huge. No grind though. Either long timed quests or the original vision of jedi obtainment through unknown factors. Once someone unlocks force sensitive the real problem begins. The Inquisitorius hunted down, not only jedi, but force sensitives. So once you start using your new found powers you start gaining their attention. Player bounties, visits from Inq. members, and even Vader Dark Knights start ruining your day. But your not a jedi and no perma death. Just alot of hassle.
On to jedi. An even longer more painful list of quests or unknown factors. Heck maybe both. Then the PD starts. And it goes on as per the old system.
Now! Lets look at other things. Some players wanted Stormtrooper IDs. RK 303 and LK 175 as examples. So toss in an Imperial training camp full of quests and missions to obtain said level. Even a low rated suit of armor but you can craters to make you a better suit. Lets go even further and add in advanced training as well such as Scout training on Endor, Commando training on Yavin, and so on. Even more quests to obtain more ranks and more IDs. Not game breaking and certainly not unbalanced.
You can also do this with the rebel faction. Dont forget the rebels werent just Han, Leia, Luke and Chewie. There were actually cells everywhere. The movies just focuses on one cell that later included others in RotJ. And you can add in the criminal side of things with Jabba, Nym, and Kardde. Lastly crafters can get into true guilds run by the game itself. Can still join PAs too but also NPC guilds.
So why bring up all this other stuff too. Simple. If someone chooses to go into the Stormtrooper academy they cant unlock FS. If someone chooses to unlock FS they go into the rebel training schools.
Would it work? I dont know. Honestly I doubt it. But who knows. I know one thing. The programming involved would take 200 to 300 people a year to complete it all.
Kai
I like it, tons of stuff for the non-Jedi and if you want to go down the Jedi path its gonna cost ya. I just wouldn't set it in the EP 4-6 timeframe anymore. Put it in a loose KOTOR time and it would fit perfectly. Instead of Reb vs. Imp you could have Sith vs. Republic. Maybe even a post Ep.6 timeline would work, EP 4-6 has been used and abused too much anymore.
Whoever decides to take on a beast of an MMO IP like Star Wars next time has got their hands full.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Jedi shmedi i never wanted to be 1,i missed my friends who disapeared to grind theres up,i only thought there was 1 good jedi anyways Obi Wan.... and maybe Yoda,
Imo it ruined the game caused a ton of division in the game diverted dev resources from other critical areas, like bug fixes and content need i really go on imo the only good jedi was a dead jedi
now dont get me wrong everyone payed there own 15bucks a month and it was the only real content Soe added i cant blame people for grinding it and wanting it cause its starwarsy
nah jedi not for me i wanted to be that guy over there sitting at the booth in the cantina, the guy who trained the dewbacks,the moisture farmer who came into town once a month to resupply...
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
That's like saying LoTR could do without the ring, or Dracula and w/no vampires or Fantasy without magic. The main reason I hated SWG before NGE was the fact I couldn't be a jedi without some obscenely stupid process.
I dunno how some people could want to play a game and be some generic boob that makes robots or whatever. I play games to imagine, not to just move my RL boring job to a in game boring job.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
That's like saying LoTR could do without the ring, or Dracula and w/no vampires or Fantasy without magic. The main reason I hated SWG before NGE was the fact I couldn't be a jedi without some obscenely stupid process.
I dunno how some people could want to play a game and be some generic boob that makes robots or whatever. I play games to imagine, not to just move my RL boring job to a in game boring job.
I was a Ranger/Rifleman most of my time playing. But I wasnt some generic boob. I was, not bragging, the most popular ranger on my server. I led hunts 3 times a week and people paid me up 100k each just to get in on one. I knew every planet like the back of my hand and knew where everything spawned. I knew aggro ranges of mobs and what hurt each different mob. Also what type of damage or specials they had.
Later I changed to a Shipwright to help my guild and had people knocking down my door to get my ship parts. In two weeks I made over 60 million credits from it. I was the first person on my server to get a KSE firespray schematic. And by the time I switched back to Ranger I had 15 of them up for sale while most other shipwrights had only 1 or 2. Other aspiring shipwrights begged me to teach them the ins and outs of crafting ship parts.
That was the beauty of the game prior to jedi. You had so many choices. Literally thousands. No two toons were the same. Even the template stackers didnt have the same builds. They had different ideas. But as jedi got more prevelant you had a very limited amount of choices. Once the village hit and PD was taken out you had two choices. You could either become a jedi or be saber fodder. That was it in PVP.
You say you dont want to be a generic boob. Once jedi got numerous then being a jedi was being a generic boob because half the server were jedi. You cant be special when everyone around you is the same as you.
Kai
That's
like saying LoTR could do without the ring, or Dracula and w/no
vampires or Fantasy without magic. The main reason I hated SWG before
NGE was the fact I couldn't be a jedi without some obscenely stupid
process.
I dunno how some people could want to play a game and
be some generic boob that makes robots or whatever. I play games to
imagine, not to just move my RL boring job to a in game boring job.
You should send your resume to SOE at once. You'd fit right in at their Austin studio.