I'm new to these boards and I thought flaming was not allowed in the SWG section where people were playing NGE and liked it, so I think the same should be expected here.
Celestian if you like NGE, go to the "I love being a jedi where everyone is a jedi, playing a mindless shooter weak version of a WoW wannabe" section and stay there.
I agree with Starman999 who said:
"The game was actually more fun long before the first jedi was unlocked. We didnt need or want them around. All jedi succeeded in doing was to distract the player base from the basics of the game which were community, role play and commerce. When Jedi became the emphasis of the entire game we lost all the we had built."
Originally posted by Anofalye Does there need to be elves in a Medieval Fantasy MMO? Answer is prolly extremely similar. It is possible to go without, but it is prolly better to go with.
You cant compare them to jedi in SWG. Between Ep. IV and VI jedi are extremely rare. And being a jedi openly was a death sentence.
First with such races as hobbits/halflings or elves. In fantasy genres elves and halfings are quite numerous. But I am willing to bet if you made an MMO, novel, or movie in which its explained that elves are extinct or near to extinct, not only would people accept it but I also think the issue of elves in fantasy wouldnt even come up.
Second for the person that mentioned the ring in LOTR. Well what if every single character could get the "ring" and use it? Would that be acceptable to you? Would it be LOTR anymore? I seriously doubt it.
Yes jedi are apart of Star Wars. Just like smugglers, tuskens, and droids. But in this time period they are near to extinct. How come this is so hard for some people to understand? If the developers had said publicly, before release, "Player jedi will not be in SWG because in this time period they are near to extinct." No one would be bitching. Also alot of people that refuse to play SWG now because of jedi in game would be playing it.
Here is a much better comparison. What if George Lucas redid Episodes IV-VI yet again and put jedi in abundance? Do you think it would fly? Put jedi all over Mos Eisley, made Chewie a jedi, add jedi to cloud city, even make several of the rebel and imperial troopers jedi. How do you think the masses of Star Wars fans would take it huh? Remember these are the same people that went ape shit when Lucas made Greedo shoot first in the cantina. So you tell me. Do you think the fans would love it if Lucas put jedi all over Episodes IV - VI?
Originally posted by KzinKiller Hell no, ask anybody who played from Opening Day (well, Day 2, when you could actually get in) until the Hologrind. Galaxies' heyday was before the first Jedi unlocked, and we had a blast.
I played from day 2 of Euro launch before Jedi, hell we didnt even have mounts we had to walk everywhere. It was fun and the planets were packed, enyone who was about on the first Newyears eve after launch can tell you that, you simply could not move. People were dancing letting off fireworks and the Cantinas were packed as well with ents and people just hanging about having fun. I never wanted to be a Jedi, i went for Master Pistoleer and stuck with that all the way thru my 2+ years on Chimeara. When the Hologrind started that effectivly killed the game, not straight away but it was the beggining of the end. People stopped doing stuff together and began camping the Holo spawns the GCW ground to a halt and everyone seemed to change, it wasnt about having fun anymore it was all about the bloody Jedi. And then when the first Jedi unlocked it didnt seem that bad because the Jedi had to hide out on planets like Endor etc for fear of getting whacked and because you only ever seemed to see the Jedi from a distance ( they used to run as soon as they saw you ) it didnt seem that bad, but the more Jedi there were the worse it became. T^he next thing we knew Jedi were everywhere and instead of being a rare sight on some back water you could tell your mates about they began to outnumber normal toons, or so it seems. The rest as they say is history. Very sad.
I know several Star Wars fanatics, freaks, nerds, fans and Star Wars lovers that dropped any thought of playing SWG the second Jedi was released on it.
Heck, I had ingame friends leave the game the same day the first jedi unlocked. I still remember one of the goodbye messages:
"This is not Star Wars, this is a game with Star Wars textures(<--I've actually used various versions of that phrase ever since). Star Wars is the lore and history of the Galaxy far far away, and they just broke the lore and history of Star Wars. I can't play a MMORPG that is supposed to be Star Wars, but is ignoring Star Wars. To all my friends, yes that means you too, I hope to see you in a galaxy far far away, where Star Wars is Star Wars."
It's interesting to look at the MMO chart for SWG, and notice that the first noticable drop was after Jedi was unleashed on the servers, and Holocrons became the norm. Heck, prior to the release of Jedi, SOE proudly announced that they had..what was it...300.000 subscribers? Since then, they never have proudly announced anything.
Instead of advertising the game to the immensely huge Star Wars fanbase, and build a playerbase of the most loyal fans(Like WoW did with the Warcraft fanbase instead of going for the MMO crowd only), they turned tail and tried to grab from the much much smaller MMO fanbase...With the usage of Jedi.
So the question "Does there need to be Jedi for SWG to be fun?" is easily answered.
No. The game had more subscribers, more players playing the game instead of gaming the game, more players being a being in the Star Wars galaxy and more players "living" out their Star Wars dream before Jedi was unleashed. Heck, in the earliest SWG interviews and newsletters, Jedi was not even mentioned, and they even said that Jedi would not be player played. And yet the game was one of the most anticipated games of its time... Another lil tidbit, is that the devs even admitted that Marketing had forced upon them Jedi, and even the game box was not to have any mentioning of Jedi.
It is my belief, that SWG lost most of their playerbase when marketing took over, and turned their backs to the fans of Star Wars by ruining the story, lore, history and background for Star Wars. And I believe I'm right... Look at the game..If "Jedi = Star Wars", and "Jedi = $$$$$$$$$!"... Where are all the players? Where are the millions of Star Wars fans? (sidenote: The average Star Wars fan couldn't give a rats arse about KOTOR. Star Wars to them is EP 4-6..Wich is why the original devs places SWG in that timeline.)
Originally posted by Anofalye Does there need to be elves in a Medieval Fantasy MMO?
Answer is prolly extremely similar. It is possible to go without, but it is prolly better to go with.
You cant compare them to jedi in SWG. Between Ep. IV and VI jedi are extremely rare. And being a jedi openly was a death sentence.
First with such races as hobbits/halflings or elves. In fantasy genres elves and halfings are quite numerous. But I am willing to bet if you made an MMO, novel, or movie in which its explained that elves are extinct or near to extinct, not only would people accept it but I also think the issue of elves in fantasy wouldnt even come up.
I rest my case.....
But elves are supposed to be rares as well. Yet players choose them. This is what MANY players want. There are prolly more elf-haters than jedi-haters.
You see, on a server you have 2 000 players, even if 800 of them are Jedis, this is still a tiny minority for a universe of billions of planets. How the devs wrap this up is something else. But having jedis as playable in SW is just very similar has having elves, maybe you have to work on some details and all, but a majority of players doesn't mean it is the majority of the universe.
For example, on my old EQ server, there was more elf-players than elfs-npc. This is the only race that is that way. I see no problem myself if there are more jedis-players than jedis-NPCs, even if this is the only class that do it.
I would personnally include jedis as a player option in a game, however I am not sure it would be possible to start playing jedi, yet it would definitely end-up been the most popular class, and this is fine, players represent a fraction of the global population and everyone wants to be the hero. That is fine. It also bring another very nice facet to have players-jedis. Players are better than NPCs in MOST cases, heros and all. It sound very good to me that most jedis are players, and even the few NPCs remaining can be EPIC.
Anyway, this is my point of view, I love star wars and I watch all the latest movies at the theater and love them all, even Jar Jar. I never read the books and barely play the TT rpgs. Still, I am more or less a fan and having jedis as playable, with relative ease, is just fine. Players are outstanding. Players are heroes. Players ARE.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by wolfmann The game had more subscribers, more players playing the game instead of gaming the game, more players being a being in the Star Wars galaxy and more players "living" out their Star Wars dream before Jedi was unleashed. Heck, in the earliest SWG interviews and newsletters, Jedi was not even mentioned, and they even said that Jedi would not be player played. And yet the game was one of the most anticipated games of its time... Another lil tidbit, is that the devs even admitted that Marketing had forced upon them Jedi, and even the game box was not to have any mentioning of Jedi. It is my belief, that SWG lost most of their playerbase when marketing took over, and turned their backs to the fans of Star Wars by ruining the story, lore, history and background for Star Wars. And I believe I'm right... Look at the game..If "Jedi = Star Wars", and "Jedi = $$$$$$$$$!"... Where are all the players? Where are the millions of Star Wars fans? (sidenote: The average Star Wars fan couldn't give a rats arse about KOTOR. Star Wars to them is EP 4-6..Wich is why the original devs places SWG in that timeline.)
Q-F-E ... it was definitely listening to the suits in Marketing instead of the game designers that put SWG into the toilet.
Marketing suits: "Oh we gotta have lots of Jedi!"
Game designers: "An alpha class will ruin gameplay and have us putting in one kludge after another to try to fix it."
Marketing suits: "Well duh, don't make Jedi an alpha class."
Game designers: "Then what kind of Jedi will they be? We'll look like idiots."
Yet .... the 'let's look like idiots' side won that argument. Genius!
Originally posted by Anofalye Originally posted by kaibigan34 Originally posted by Anofalye Does there need to be elves in a Medieval Fantasy MMO? Answer is prolly extremely similar. It is possible to go without, but it is prolly better to go with.
You cant compare them to jedi in SWG. Between Ep. IV and VI jedi are extremely rare. And being a jedi openly was a death sentence.
First with such races as hobbits/halflings or elves. In fantasy genres elves and halfings are quite numerous. But I am willing to bet if you made an MMO, novel, or movie in which its explained that elves are extinct or near to extinct, not only would people accept it but I also think the issue of elves in fantasy wouldnt even come up.
I rest my case.....
But elves are supposed to be rares as well. Yet players choose them. This is what MANY players want. There are prolly more elf-haters than jedi-haters.
You see, on a server you have 2 000 players, even if 800 of them are Jedis, this is still a tiny minority for a universe of billions of planets. How the devs wrap this up is something else. But having jedis as playable in SW is just very similar has having elves, maybe you have to work on some details and all, but a majority of players doesn't mean it is the majority of the universe.
For example, on my old EQ server, there was more elf-players than elfs-npc. This is the only race that is that way. I see no problem myself if there are more jedis-players than jedis-NPCs, even if this is the only class that do it.
I would personnally include jedis as a player option in a game, however I am not sure it would be possible to start playing jedi, yet it would definitely end-up been the most popular class, and this is fine, players represent a fraction of the global population and everyone wants to be the hero. That is fine. It also bring another very nice facet to have players-jedis. Players are better than NPCs in MOST cases, heros and all. It sound very good to me that most jedis are players, and even the few NPCs remaining can be EPIC.
Anyway, this is my point of view, I love star wars and I watch all the latest movies at the theater and love them all, even Jar Jar. I never read the books and barely play the TT rpgs. Still, I am more or less a fan and having jedis as playable, with relative ease, is just fine. Players are outstanding. Players are heroes. Players ARE.
Again how would it be for you if Lucas put jedi all over Episodes IV - VI? Imagine it. Luke is with Yoda and tells Luke "The last of jedi you will be." then cut to a scene of 5 jedi walking by Vader unmolested. How about Obi Wan telling Luke about the Jedi Knights being extinct then later in Mos Eisley there are 20 or 30 just walking around, including through Imperial check points. Sound good to you? How do you think the fans will take it? And again remember these are the same fans that got so bent out of shape when Lucas editted the cantina scene so that Greedo shot first.
IT is not in the continuity of this time period. Sure if it was during KotoR, PreClone Wars, or during the Clone Wars bring them on. But there are literally only a handful of jedi around during this time period. And I do mean a handful. Luke and Yoda are the only two openly being jedi and Yoda has to hide. The other jedi who survived Order 66 did so by putting away their light sabers and seeking other professions. And still they got caught most of the time because of the Inquisitorius and Vader's Dark Knights.
You said you have seen the three recent movies. Remember the end of Eipisode III? Order 66? Well SWG says that the Emperor failed and that it wasnt that bad since there are so many jedi running around.
Jedi players do NOT belong in this time period. Plain and simple. You can say you dont mind it but the majority of star wars fans do mind it alot. And those are the ones that SOE and LEC need to be targetting. Because those are the ones that would make the game fun for everyone because they would bring with them the legends and lore.
So you decide. Would you rather play in a game that is an alternate reality of Star Wars with only about 50k to 100k players OR would you like to play in the Star Wars universe where you have 500k to 1 million players? In order to get that 500k to 1 million players the first thing on the chop would have to be jedi.
Comments
I'm new to these boards and I thought flaming was not allowed in the SWG section where people were playing NGE and liked it, so I think the same should be expected here.
Celestian if you like NGE, go to the "I love being a jedi where everyone is a jedi, playing a mindless shooter weak version of a WoW wannabe" section and stay there.
I agree with Starman999 who said:
"The game was actually more fun long before the first jedi was unlocked. We didnt need or want them around. All jedi succeeded in doing was to distract the player base from the basics of the game which were community, role play and commerce. When Jedi became the emphasis of the entire game we lost all the we had built."
Forums messed up here.....
Does there need to be elves in a Medieval Fantasy MMO?
Answer is prolly extremely similar. It is possible to go without, but it is prolly better to go with.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
First with such races as hobbits/halflings or elves. In fantasy genres elves and halfings are quite numerous. But I am willing to bet if you made an MMO, novel, or movie in which its explained that elves are extinct or near to extinct, not only would people accept it but I also think the issue of elves in fantasy wouldnt even come up.
Second for the person that mentioned the ring in LOTR. Well what if every single character could get the "ring" and use it? Would that be acceptable to you? Would it be LOTR anymore? I seriously doubt it.
Yes jedi are apart of Star Wars. Just like smugglers, tuskens, and droids. But in this time period they are near to extinct. How come this is so hard for some people to understand? If the developers had said publicly, before release, "Player jedi will not be in SWG because in this time period they are near to extinct." No one would be bitching. Also alot of people that refuse to play SWG now because of jedi in game would be playing it.
Here is a much better comparison. What if George Lucas redid Episodes IV-VI yet again and put jedi in abundance? Do you think it would fly? Put jedi all over Mos Eisley, made Chewie a jedi, add jedi to cloud city, even make several of the rebel and imperial troopers jedi. How do you think the masses of Star Wars fans would take it huh? Remember these are the same people that went ape shit when Lucas made Greedo shoot first in the cantina. So you tell me. Do you think the fans would love it if Lucas put jedi all over Episodes IV - VI?
I rest my case.....
Kai
I played from day 2 of Euro launch before Jedi, hell we didnt even have mounts we had to walk everywhere.
It was fun and the planets were packed, enyone who was about on the first Newyears eve after launch can tell you that, you simply could not move. People were dancing letting off fireworks and the Cantinas were packed as well with ents and people just hanging about having fun.
I never wanted to be a Jedi, i went for Master Pistoleer and stuck with that all the way thru my 2+ years on Chimeara. When the Hologrind started that effectivly killed the game, not straight away but it was the beggining of the end. People stopped doing stuff together and began camping the Holo spawns the GCW ground to a halt and everyone seemed to change, it wasnt about having fun anymore it was all about the bloody Jedi.
And then when the first Jedi unlocked it didnt seem that bad because the Jedi had to hide out on planets like Endor etc for fear of getting whacked and because you only ever seemed to see the Jedi from a distance ( they used to run as soon as they saw you ) it didnt seem that bad, but the more Jedi there were the worse it became.
T^he next thing we knew Jedi were everywhere and instead of being a rare sight on some back water you could tell your mates about they began to outnumber normal toons, or so it seems. The rest as they say is history. Very sad.
First post on these forums by the way.
This discussion is quite funny IMHO.
I know several Star Wars fanatics, freaks, nerds, fans and Star Wars lovers that dropped any thought of playing SWG the second Jedi was released on it.
Heck, I had ingame friends leave the game the same day the first jedi unlocked. I still remember one of the goodbye messages:
"This is not Star Wars, this is a game with Star Wars textures(<--I've actually used various versions of that phrase ever since). Star Wars is the lore and history of the Galaxy far far away, and they just broke the lore and history of Star Wars. I can't play a MMORPG that is supposed to be Star Wars, but is ignoring Star Wars. To all my friends, yes that means you too, I hope to see you in a galaxy far far away, where Star Wars is Star Wars."
It's interesting to look at the MMO chart for SWG, and notice that the first noticable drop was after Jedi was unleashed on the servers, and Holocrons became the norm. Heck, prior to the release of Jedi, SOE proudly announced that they had..what was it...300.000 subscribers? Since then, they never have proudly announced anything.
Instead of advertising the game to the immensely huge Star Wars fanbase, and build a playerbase of the most loyal fans(Like WoW did with the Warcraft fanbase instead of going for the MMO crowd only), they turned tail and tried to grab from the much much smaller MMO fanbase...With the usage of Jedi.
So the question "Does there need to be Jedi for SWG to be fun?" is easily answered.
No. The game had more subscribers, more players playing the game instead of gaming the game, more players being a being in the Star Wars galaxy and more players "living" out their Star Wars dream before Jedi was unleashed. Heck, in the earliest SWG interviews and newsletters, Jedi was not even mentioned, and they even said that Jedi would not be player played. And yet the game was one of the most anticipated games of its time... Another lil tidbit, is that the devs even admitted that Marketing had forced upon them Jedi, and even the game box was not to have any mentioning of Jedi.
It is my belief, that SWG lost most of their playerbase when marketing took over, and turned their backs to the fans of Star Wars by ruining the story, lore, history and background for Star Wars. And I believe I'm right... Look at the game..If "Jedi = Star Wars", and "Jedi = $$$$$$$$$!"... Where are all the players? Where are the millions of Star Wars fans? (sidenote: The average Star Wars fan couldn't give a rats arse about KOTOR. Star Wars to them is EP 4-6..Wich is why the original devs places SWG in that timeline.)
First with such races as hobbits/halflings or elves. In fantasy genres elves and halfings are quite numerous. But I am willing to bet if you made an MMO, novel, or movie in which its explained that elves are extinct or near to extinct, not only would people accept it but I also think the issue of elves in fantasy wouldnt even come up.
I rest my case.....
But elves are supposed to be rares as well. Yet players choose them. This is what MANY players want. There are prolly more elf-haters than jedi-haters.
You see, on a server you have 2 000 players, even if 800 of them are Jedis, this is still a tiny minority for a universe of billions of planets. How the devs wrap this up is something else. But having jedis as playable in SW is just very similar has having elves, maybe you have to work on some details and all, but a majority of players doesn't mean it is the majority of the universe.
For example, on my old EQ server, there was more elf-players than elfs-npc. This is the only race that is that way. I see no problem myself if there are more jedis-players than jedis-NPCs, even if this is the only class that do it.
I would personnally include jedis as a player option in a game, however I am not sure it would be possible to start playing jedi, yet it would definitely end-up been the most popular class, and this is fine, players represent a fraction of the global population and everyone wants to be the hero. That is fine. It also bring another very nice facet to have players-jedis. Players are better than NPCs in MOST cases, heros and all. It sound very good to me that most jedis are players, and even the few NPCs remaining can be EPIC.
Anyway, this is my point of view, I love star wars and I watch all the latest movies at the theater and love them all, even Jar Jar. I never read the books and barely play the TT rpgs. Still, I am more or less a fan and having jedis as playable, with relative ease, is just fine. Players are outstanding. Players are heroes. Players ARE.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Q-F-E ... it was definitely listening to the suits in Marketing instead of the game designers that put SWG into the toilet.
Marketing suits: "Oh we gotta have lots of Jedi!"
Game designers: "An alpha class will ruin gameplay and have us putting in one kludge after another to try to fix it."
Marketing suits: "Well duh, don't make Jedi an alpha class."
Game designers: "Then what kind of Jedi will they be? We'll look like idiots."
Yet .... the 'let's look like idiots' side won that argument. Genius!
First with such races as hobbits/halflings or elves. In fantasy genres elves and halfings are quite numerous. But I am willing to bet if you made an MMO, novel, or movie in which its explained that elves are extinct or near to extinct, not only would people accept it but I also think the issue of elves in fantasy wouldnt even come up.
I rest my case.....
But elves are supposed to be rares as well. Yet players choose them. This is what MANY players want. There are prolly more elf-haters than jedi-haters.
You see, on a server you have 2 000 players, even if 800 of them are Jedis, this is still a tiny minority for a universe of billions of planets. How the devs wrap this up is something else. But having jedis as playable in SW is just very similar has having elves, maybe you have to work on some details and all, but a majority of players doesn't mean it is the majority of the universe.
For example, on my old EQ server, there was more elf-players than elfs-npc. This is the only race that is that way. I see no problem myself if there are more jedis-players than jedis-NPCs, even if this is the only class that do it.
I would personnally include jedis as a player option in a game, however I am not sure it would be possible to start playing jedi, yet it would definitely end-up been the most popular class, and this is fine, players represent a fraction of the global population and everyone wants to be the hero. That is fine. It also bring another very nice facet to have players-jedis. Players are better than NPCs in MOST cases, heros and all. It sound very good to me that most jedis are players, and even the few NPCs remaining can be EPIC.
Anyway, this is my point of view, I love star wars and I watch all the latest movies at the theater and love them all, even Jar Jar. I never read the books and barely play the TT rpgs. Still, I am more or less a fan and having jedis as playable, with relative ease, is just fine. Players are outstanding. Players are heroes. Players ARE.
Again how would it be for you if Lucas put jedi all over Episodes IV - VI? Imagine it. Luke is with Yoda and tells Luke "The last of jedi you will be." then cut to a scene of 5 jedi walking by Vader unmolested. How about Obi Wan telling Luke about the Jedi Knights being extinct then later in Mos Eisley there are 20 or 30 just walking around, including through Imperial check points. Sound good to you? How do you think the fans will take it? And again remember these are the same fans that got so bent out of shape when Lucas editted the cantina scene so that Greedo shot first.
IT is not in the continuity of this time period. Sure if it was during KotoR, PreClone Wars, or during the Clone Wars bring them on. But there are literally only a handful of jedi around during this time period. And I do mean a handful. Luke and Yoda are the only two openly being jedi and Yoda has to hide. The other jedi who survived Order 66 did so by putting away their light sabers and seeking other professions. And still they got caught most of the time because of the Inquisitorius and Vader's Dark Knights.
You said you have seen the three recent movies. Remember the end of Eipisode III? Order 66? Well SWG says that the Emperor failed and that it wasnt that bad since there are so many jedi running around.
Jedi players do NOT belong in this time period. Plain and simple. You can say you dont mind it but the majority of star wars fans do mind it alot. And those are the ones that SOE and LEC need to be targetting. Because those are the ones that would make the game fun for everyone because they would bring with them the legends and lore.
So you decide. Would you rather play in a game that is an alternate reality of Star Wars with only about 50k to 100k players OR would you like to play in the Star Wars universe where you have 500k to 1 million players? In order to get that 500k to 1 million players the first thing on the chop would have to be jedi.
Kai