Originally posted by TheFranchise Rogues are to rangers like fighters are to paladins. They're somewhat similar and can can do some of the same things, but they can never excel at what the other one can excel at.
Sorry to disappoint you, but the Rogue excel at everything the Ranger can except Animal handling, which I'm story wasn't a really good skill unless your DM throws throws animals your way. (This coming from a DM who never only had one ranger in his campaign) Animals are not necessarily component to your gameplay unless your have a Druid or Ranger in your party. Ranger is only limit to exposing the weakness of 5 enemies out of 30 something monsters while the Rogue expose the weak of all those except undead, construct, dragons and other few creatures with the immunity. And as for the Paladin vs. Fighter, I just post topic about that in the Pencil and Paper forum in another site and one person noted it's better to have a Paladin in your party than a Fighter because one fear spell makes your Fighter useless. I also added that after level 4, the paladin excels at everything the Fighter does, can turn undead and he gets Holy Avenger to boot.
I agree Somnulus talked a lot of 2.0; however, your knowledge of 3.5 and DDO is suspect, Page 25, Krusk is smiling at you like an idiot on the same page where they explain how the barbarian class work. Now please shut up.
You've said you've read, and still do at times, the DDO.com forums. One of the biggest topics since its creation has been how the developers have messed with the rules. And not just altering certain ones to fit into a real-time game, but changing rules apparently simply because they felt like it. The head designer, can't think of his name, despite having written parts of some of the 3.5 books, has straight-out said he changed some rules in DDO because he never liked those rules in 3.5. All the developers of other DnD must have also hated the rules for the other editions because they made similar choice with their game. Whhhhhhheeeeeeeee!
I say DDO isn't doing as well as it could be in part because of unnecessary rules changes. There are plenty of other factors for why it could be doing better, but they changed certain rules "just because." D&D non-purists don't care either way, but I don't know why they also took it upon themselves to piss off the more hardcore rules-lawyering players out there who then said, "I can't wait for NWN2 because at least the rules will be correct." I pretty much stopped playing my "battle cleric" when, at level 10, the fighters' to-hit enhancement is ridiculous yet the cleric's Divine Power doesn't work correctly. Could it be because DnD non-purists don't understand the rules enough to nay-say or they just don't care enough to fight for it. And then they do stupid crap like make certain monsters immune to web and things, "just because." How hard is it to make web hold a monster in place but still let them attack if someone is within range, like normal rules allow? Things like that were huge topics on the forums and caused many people to shake their heads in disgust, yet there was no reason to change the rule in the first place other than perhaps sloppy programming. We're talking about DDO right?
Even worse, the basis of all combat, the base-attack-bonus and multiple attacks, is backwards, so every character without a fourth attack at high level gets screwed, making many monsters nearly unhittable to them except on a 20. DDO did change plenty of rules, and they lost many players because of it.
The graphics were horrible, there was no voice acting, the game came out with less than it's content. Every hates the sewer levels. They hate having to pay the game. They hate not having the option to be evil. The emos were terrible. The game's overall biggest flaw is that FAILED to excel or even meet the expectation of other mmorgs. This wasn't the opinions of the official board, but another DDO I've been to and this one. The reason you probably don't see people do it as much on the official board is either they are afraid to be made fun of or they've already quit. (I believe their is post in here that shows the behavior of the DDO fanboys, whom act no different from the fanboy in WoW)
I think Temple of Elemental Evil is a great 3.5 turn-based game. It could be painfully slow though if you don't use hotkeys. I've had NWN2 on my drive for around a month and haven't felt the need to play it in about that same amount of time. I think DDO could be great if they stopped messing with rules they don't need to mess with.When I hear of people throwing out various 3.5 rules, sometimes it can be a good thing, but when you said your only true classes are racial classes, to me that completely misses a main point of 3.5. In 3.5, anyone can do nearly anything they want. Whether they are good at it or not is something else, but they can do it. To me, 2.0 looks archaic and limiting next to 3.5. I'm more for getting rid of all the rules and replacing them with something new. I'm a DnD Nihilist as I don't believe the old rules work anymore. Even if you somehow made the DDO work with all the rules, the game would still be boring because it's based on turned base game. Everything in DnD is too restricted and too confined, which is why DnD has hard time getting new fans or being translated into a video game.
Originally posted by CaptainRPG Originally posted by Gameloading None of those even HINT...
The game has under 90k and dollar value of the game has reach $29.95 in most stores around the country. It went from $50 to $30 in no less than 4 to 5 months after launch. I'm not sure what planet you are from, but in Earth economics, when price falls like that, it speak volumes about the game's qualities so please shut up and stop telling people they have only assumption to provide.
Actually, I think its better if you actually do A bit of research before you open your mouth.
from 50$ to 30$ in 4 to 5 months is perfectly reasonable. It happened to Everquest 2 & SWG as well (In fact, Everquest 2 Even gave the game away for free on fileplanet), and those game are doing just fine. so maybe you should "shut up" and actually provide FACTS to support your arguement. you have nothing but assumptions to provide. If you can't provide any facts and evidence, then do NOT go into debate with me. You do not have access to D&DO's financial pages. Also, since when does price drops has ANYTHING to do with quality?
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by CaptainRPG Originally posted by Gameloading None of those even HINT...
The game has under 90k and dollar value of the game has reach $29.95 in most stores around the country. It went from $50 to $30 in no less than 4 to 5 months after launch. I'm not sure what planet you are from, but in Earth economics, when price falls like that, it speak volumes about the game's qualities so please shut up and stop telling people they have only assumption to provide.
Actually, I think its better if you actually do A bit of research before you open your mouth.
from 50$ to 30$ in 4 to 5 months is perfectly reasonable. It happened to Everquest 2 & SWG as well (In fact, Everquest 2 Even gave the game away for free on fileplanet), and those game are doing just fine. so maybe you should "shut up" and actually provide FACTS to support your arguement. you have nothing but assumptions to provide. If you can't provide any facts and evidence, then do NOT go into debate with me. You do not have access to D&DO's financial pages. Also, since when does price drops has ANYTHING to do with quality? I didn't think it was possible to contradict oneself in the same post, but you proved me wrong, Game. The fact that EQ2 and SWG had to go to such extreme measure only show that they were doing poorly.
SWG and Everquest 2 had a price drop, but in order to save their game from doing poorly they had to revamp their game. In the process, SWG revamped cause old players to leave and they ended up acquiring new players. (Which was both good and bad) Everquest 2 is still stuck around 200k to 300k players. They've had a slight revamp, but not as big as SWG's. It also helps that EQ2 has a pre-existing MMORPG fan base, which DDO doesn't have.
And no, $50 to $20 isn't reasonable within a 6 month period. On the planet Earth, if the price of an MMORPG drops over the course of the months, it's not a good game. Saying it's good that a MMORPG game prices drops is good is exaggaration on your part and only shows you know little of economics. They've given out 3 trials and putknew content in and their fan-base is still shrinking. The rate of old players leaving is the same rate as the new players coming in, if not higher. Plus, the fact the game contents can be beaten within a week, still has bugs and still has limited gameplay doesn't help to keep players either.
Oh by the way, GW prices didn't fall until after next year and WoW didn't fall for nearly 2 years.
Originally posted by CaptainRPG Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by CaptainRPG Originally posted by Gameloading None of those even HINT...
The game has under 90k and dollar value of the game has reach $29.95 in most stores around the country. It went from $50 to $30 in no less than 4 to 5 months after launch. I'm not sure what planet you are from, but in Earth economics, when price falls like that, it speak volumes about the game's qualities so please shut up and stop telling people they have only assumption to provide.
Actually, I think its better if you actually do A bit of research before you open your mouth.
from 50$ to 30$ in 4 to 5 months is perfectly reasonable. It happened to Everquest 2 & SWG as well (In fact, Everquest 2 Even gave the game away for free on fileplanet), and those game are doing just fine. so maybe you should "shut up" and actually provide FACTS to support your arguement. you have nothing but assumptions to provide. If you can't provide any facts and evidence, then do NOT go into debate with me. You do not have access to D&DO's financial pages. Also, since when does price drops has ANYTHING to do with quality? I didn't think it was possible to contradict oneself in the same post, but you proved me wrong, Game. The fact that EQ2 and SWG had to go to such extreme measure only show that they were doing poorly.
SWG and Everquest 2 had a price drop, but in order to save their game from doing poorly they had to revamp their game. In the process, SWG revamped cause old players to leave and they ended up acquiring new players. (Which was both good and bad) Everquest 2 is still stuck around 200k to 300k players. They've had a slight revamp, but not as big as SWG's. It also helps that EQ2 has a pre-existing MMORPG fan base, which DDO doesn't have.
And no, $50 to $20 isn't reasonable within a 6 month period. On the planet Earth, if the price of an MMORPG drops over the course of the months, it's not a good game. Saying it's good that a MMORPG game prices drops is good is exaggaration on your part and only shows you know little of economics. They've given out 3 trials and putknew content in and their fan-base is still shrinking. The rate of old players leaving is the same rate as the new players coming in, if not higher. Plus, the fact the game contents can be beaten within a week, still has bugs and still has limited gameplay doesn't help to keep players either.
Oh by the way, GW prices didn't fall until after next year and WoW didn't fall for nearly 2 years. This is again a post full of assumptions with actually NOTHING to back up your statement. You say the game drops in price, sure, give me proof that it was because of a low population. You can't. your merely assuming. It could also be that the game sold 200k copies of the game the first 2 months, and only 25k the 2 months after that. Naturaly, the price would go down. However out of the 200k copies the first 2 months, only 20k people quit the game. Do you see where I'm going to? this is what also could have happened.However you say it happened the other way, that DDO sold poorly all those 4 months, with absolutely ZERO evidence. Trial isn't proof either.
Your merely assuming. you don't have any facts to support your arguement.
This is again a post full of assumptions with actually NOTHING to back up your statement.
Actually, no. SWG changes were annnounce on the ATTACK OF THE SHOW on G4 nearly months ago! EQ2 has long since add PvP just to spice thing up, which they've been announce for~~ever. So none of what I said about those games was an assumption.
90k subscribers in the beginning. It got medicore reviews from game analyzist and players. The game has been declining since. The creators of DDO said they weren't going to add Solo (they even made a mpeg about it) and they aren't were going to add PvP. Yet, when the number of players declined, they tried to vamp as another clone MMORPG and it still didn't do anything to bring the people back or help to bring in new fans. Whheeeeeeeee.
And here's were We3 analogy falls apart. We3 believes kids are what bring down an rpg. Well guess what, kids make up the majority of video game market. Turbine created the game for 20 to 25 years old, which didn't help them at all. Moreover, most of the DnD fans are older people. You can't keep using the same system your dad used when he was a kid and expect to get new people.
BTW, your assumption about the subscribers was just idiotic because all games have had many of their players leave/ban and it doesn't hurt the price of the game at all. It's hurts the game if no one buys it. Meet Joe Black made a lot of money even though it sucked and people didn't even stay 5 minutes for the movie. It stayed in the movies for a few months longer. You know why? Because of the Star Wars Episode I movie preview was attached to it.
Somnulus did nothan more than press on rather than admit he was wrong. That was when I realize this argument was pointless. If I contradicted Som, he would just ignore the response and move or he start to give circular answers. (Circular answers is a sign of person whose gone into denial or can't think outside the box.) Most of his info came from 2.0 edition and was bias towards the 2.0 edition info. If you do contradict Som, like with Army and football thing, he'll come with another reason to continue arguing or throwing out the answer you provide him on no grounds whatsoever.
Again, CaptainRPG: Point out EXACTLY where I ignored you or any of your "arguments" (regardless of how opinionated or inaccurate they were). When you find an issue where I did not reply to your points, let me know and I will be happy to debate those points.
I replied to you, point by point. Where possible, I quoted information from both the 2nd Edition and the 3.5 Edition, actual quotes, paraphrases and/or page number.
You introduced a ridiculous argument trying to validate a lifetime of specialization in multiple areas by using the Army and high school football as examples, whereupon I replied to each of your points, again, regardless of how inaccurate they were. I pointed out where your arguments were invalid and you continued to attempt to press them. That is a perfect example of circular reasoning. Rather than just admit that either they were poor examples, or, more specifically, that your original argument was incorrect, you continued throwing out irrelevant information that did nothing to prove your point.
Finally, rather than continue to simply debate, you decide instead to begin insulting me and ultimately, decided to "ignore" me (while still insulting me). That is the last bastion of an individual who realizes either their argument is invalid or they lack any actual data besides their opinion to support their argument, or both.
We've had this little run around before, CaptainRPG, back in this thread;
You lacked information then, you made statements with no factual data, you failed to understand or outright ignored the factual data provided to you, you changed the argument when your point was proven invalid and you resorted to insults when you failed to prove your points. Exactly as you have done in this thread.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq Adnihilo Beorn Judge's Edge Somnulus Perfect Black ---------------------- Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2 Everquest / Everquest 2 Anarchy Online Shadowbane Dark Age of Camelot Star Wars Galaxies Matrix Online World of Warcraft Guild Wars City of Heroes
Wow the topic's name has really come and bitten the original poster in the arse. My experience with the OC in NWN 2 was one ot total frustration: Trying to keep my moronic companions from doing idiotic things all the time...Or fighting the camera. The Multiplayer part will take a while th make but it seem Obsidian gave the modders a flawed product to work with. On the other hand i tried a month in D&D Online and while I won't extend I have to say it wasa very decent game indeed. NO GRIND FOLKS NO GRIND.
I've been reading this thread for a while and I feel the need to opine. I've played 2nd ed a bit a long while back but have been playing 3.5 ed in the Eberron campaign for about a year now. Also, I play a BARD of all things, so here is my take on them, CaptainRPG.
Yes, I have a lot of skillpoints and skills, and can do pretty much damn everything. I am a generalist, variety is the spice of life, etc. However I'm also a very important member of my party. The song Inspire Courage along with the 1st level spel Inspirational Boost (found in complete adventurer) gives everyone in my party a +3 to attack and +3 to damage,(THAT STACKS WITH MOST THINGS) immediately, for as long as they can hear me and for 5 rounds after i bite the dust or stop. I'm able, with some other feats, to cast bard spells, use wands, activate magic items, etc, while singing, and because i specifically chose Performance[Singing] I can fight while doing so (no instrument to keep in my hands, etc)
As for spells, our wizard is restricted from casting illusion and some enchantment spells as per focussing on Evocation school, so i'm the fall guy if you want invisibility, etc.
Also note at my communication skills. I am the party's 'face'. If they want to discuss business whether it be with the King or some thug, I'm the right guy for the job with my skills in diplomacy, bluff, and intimidation. Also, because of my race and my playstyle, I'm able to infiltrate many places unseen, acting as a spy for the party. I can technically look like any major race, male or female.
While it's true that I'm a general class character and can do many things half-assed, I really shine in a lot of areas. Also, in the party I'm in, i'm the 2nd rank melee (1st is monk) 2nd rank healer (first is druid) and 3rd class spellcaster. My attack bonus is about half that of the fighter that used to be in the party, but i'm tops at ranged combat with a whopping +10 to hit when singing.
Furthermore, you'l notice i'm multiclassing in the prestige class Chameleon found in Races of Destiny supplement. This AUGMENTS my abilities even more, even while relegating me to an extreme jack of all trades.
With this class, in addition to my bardic abilities, I can spend one hour a day shifting "aptitude focuses". Combat, Arcane, Divine, Stealth, or Wild. They each add some small abilities to my skills as well as the ability to technically be any class in the game, literally.
With arcane focus, i gain a +2 to spellcraft and knowledge[arcana] as well as +2 to my willsave. But, I also gain the ability to cast *ANY* arcane based spells as a wizard with a level 2x my chameleon level (this means i need a spellbook, components, and knowledge of the spells, however) Divine focus, fairly the same thing, but i can cast any divine spell (cleric, druid, ranger, shujenga, blackguard, what have you) spells as per a cleric 2x my chameleon level.
With combat i gain an additional +2 +2 tohit/damage (increasing up to +4). In other levels i gain the ability to have a "feat slot" that i can substitute in any one feat i meat the prereqs for, once per day. So I can act like a fighter with Cleave, or a ranger with rapid shot, etc. and the next day cast spells as a wizard with empowered spell metamagic.
Later on i have the ability to add 2/4/6 to any one stat, and the ability to emulate class features a number of times per day (clerics turn undead, paladin's smite, thief sneak attack, etc)
I become the ultimate jack of all trades, a character that can be anyone or do anything (within reason). The disadvantages?
I have a relatively poor skill progression per level. I have a smaller hit die then most classes i can emulate.
A dedicated spellcaster can easily outclass me in spells, seeing as i can only cast spells up to level 6, and not many (fewer than a sorceror) and a barbarian or fighter could mop the floor with me. Most of the abilities rely on surprise and subterfuge (you don't expect some guy in a robe to suddenly bring out his longsword and crossbow and be able to hit you! a spelcaster would have shat his robes) since i regain my bard fighting ability, etc while in forms.
But thats not what my character is supposed to be. He 'fills in the gaps' in my party. I can take the illusionist spells that the wizard is forbidden to cast. I can supplement the healing of the party. If the party needs an extra fighter, I'm there. We have no rogues, and in stealth focus i gain trapsence and can disarm traps like a rogue can. So while i'm the ultimate generalist, i'm extremely "useful" to the party.
I was very excited about NWN2...then I bought it and played with some friends for about an hour.
If only you could return a faulty game like you could a faulty TV.
Which brings me to this point: If I hand the nice man at Best Buy a receipt and the product on the receipt and said, "This product was not as advertised and I am completely unsatisfied. I would like my money back." He would say one of two things: 1) I'm sorry to hear about that. I'll take the TV and give you your money back." or 2) "I'm sorry to hear about that but because it is a PC game we are unable to give your money back."
How long do we have to bend over and let gaming companies screw us? I should be able to get my money back from NWN2.
After logging several hours in NWN2, I'm not really that impressed. It feels like a game that was built solely to encourage players to build their own modules.
Originally posted by Gila-Man After logging several hours in NWN2, I'm not really that impressed. It feels like a game that was built solely to encourage players to build their own modules.
I have purchased NWN2 and can say after having played for at least 14 hours of the campaign, that is horribly slow.
I do not understand how Obsidian could justify slow load times vs. better graphics. The slow load times completely kills the immersion factor. These load times are a reminder of one of the other awful things about DDO. After thinking about it some more, I feel that the load times do hurt both games quite a bit. It's strange how for EQ2, the load times don't bother me as much.
And has anyone else noticed that the whole map/travel system kind of wrecks the immersion of the game? This is a game with no sense of geography. The single-player campaign just feels like a series of map modules linked together rather than an actual coherent story. And while the whole tooset may be a big selling point, if that's all there is, then this is decidedly a disappointment. I really, really wanted to love this game, but ever since I loaded it up, I've felt let down. There's a lot I like about it, but it's far from the leap forward I was hoping for this series.
Originally posted by Gila-Man And has anyone else noticed that the whole map/travel system kind of wrecks the immersion of the game? This is a game with no sense of geography. The single-player campaign just feels like a series of map modules linked together rather than an actual coherent story. And while the whole tooset may be a big selling point, if that's all there is, then this is decidedly a disappointment. I really, really wanted to love this game, but ever since I loaded it up, I've felt let down. There's a lot I like about it, but it's far from the leap forward I was hoping for this series.
Baldur's gate had a map travel system too. I really miss that game.
They didn't reinvent the wheel nor did they have to. It's a solid follow up, given time to grow it shall be a good game. There already are some decent PWs around.
"I agree Somnulus talked a lot of 2.0; however, your knowledge of 3.5 and DDO is suspect,"
CaptainRPG wrote:
"Page 25, Krusk is smiling at you like an idiot on the same page where they explain how the barbarian class work. Now please shut up."
I didn't mention barbarians. I mentioned rogues and rangers.
You claim to know all about 3.5; so much so that you rewrote half the rules for your home game, yet you say things such as rangers can disable traps just like rogues can -- an incredibly basic rule. I bring it up, and you, as usual, disregard it and pretend your lack of 3.5 knowledge is not in question, which it most certainly is.
You don't know 3.5 rules, and you talk of DDO from the point of view of someone who has been powerleveled to 10 via the same quests over and over. You are also arrogant and rude. It is you who should shut up.
Comments
Actually, I think its better if you actually do A bit of research before you open your mouth.
from 50$ to 30$ in 4 to 5 months is perfectly reasonable. It happened to Everquest 2 & SWG as well (In fact, Everquest 2 Even gave the game away for free on fileplanet), and those game are doing just fine. so maybe you should "shut up" and actually provide FACTS to support your arguement. you have nothing but assumptions to provide. If you can't provide any facts and evidence, then do NOT go into debate with me. You do not have access to D&DO's financial pages. Also, since when does price drops has ANYTHING to do with quality?
Actually, I think its better if you actually do A bit of research before you open your mouth.
from
50$ to 30$ in 4 to 5 months is perfectly reasonable. It happened to
Everquest 2 & SWG as well (In fact, Everquest 2 Even gave the game
away for free on fileplanet), and those game are doing just fine. so
maybe you should "shut up" and actually provide FACTS to support your
arguement. you have nothing but assumptions to provide. If you can't
provide any facts and evidence, then do NOT go into debate with me. You
do not have access to D&DO's financial pages. Also, since when does
price drops has ANYTHING to do with quality?
I didn't think it was possible to contradict oneself in the same post,
but you proved me wrong, Game. The fact that EQ2 and SWG had to go to
such extreme measure only show that they were doing poorly.
SWG and Everquest 2 had a price drop, but in order to save their game
from doing poorly they had to revamp their game. In the process, SWG
revamped cause old players to leave and they ended up acquiring new
players. (Which was both good and bad) Everquest 2 is still stuck
around 200k to 300k players. They've had a slight revamp, but not as
big as SWG's. It also helps that EQ2 has a pre-existing MMORPG fan
base, which DDO doesn't have.
And no, $50 to $20 isn't
reasonable within a 6 month period. On the planet Earth, if the price
of an MMORPG drops over the course of the months, it's not a good game.
Saying it's good that a MMORPG game prices drops is good is
exaggaration on your part and only shows you know little of economics.
They've given out 3 trials and putknew content in and their fan-base is
still shrinking. The rate of old players leaving is the same rate as
the new players coming in, if not higher. Plus, the fact the game
contents can be beaten within a week, still has bugs and still has
limited gameplay doesn't help to keep players either.
Oh by the way, GW prices didn't fall until after next year and WoW didn't fall for nearly 2 years.
Actually, I think its better if you actually do A bit of research before you open your mouth.
from 50$ to 30$ in 4 to 5 months is perfectly reasonable. It happened to Everquest 2 & SWG as well (In fact, Everquest 2 Even gave the game away for free on fileplanet), and those game are doing just fine. so maybe you should "shut up" and actually provide FACTS to support your arguement. you have nothing but assumptions to provide. If you can't provide any facts and evidence, then do NOT go into debate with me. You do not have access to D&DO's financial pages. Also, since when does price drops has ANYTHING to do with quality?
I didn't think it was possible to contradict oneself in the same post, but you proved me wrong, Game. The fact that EQ2 and SWG had to go to such extreme measure only show that they were doing poorly.
SWG and Everquest 2 had a price drop, but in order to save their game from doing poorly they had to revamp their game. In the process, SWG revamped cause old players to leave and they ended up acquiring new players. (Which was both good and bad) Everquest 2 is still stuck around 200k to 300k players. They've had a slight revamp, but not as big as SWG's. It also helps that EQ2 has a pre-existing MMORPG fan base, which DDO doesn't have.
And no, $50 to $20 isn't reasonable within a 6 month period. On the planet Earth, if the price of an MMORPG drops over the course of the months, it's not a good game. Saying it's good that a MMORPG game prices drops is good is exaggaration on your part and only shows you know little of economics. They've given out 3 trials and putknew content in and their fan-base is still shrinking. The rate of old players leaving is the same rate as the new players coming in, if not higher. Plus, the fact the game contents can be beaten within a week, still has bugs and still has limited gameplay doesn't help to keep players either.
Oh by the way, GW prices didn't fall until after next year and WoW didn't fall for nearly 2 years.
This is again a post full of assumptions with actually NOTHING to back up your statement. You say the game drops in price, sure, give me proof that it was because of a low population. You can't. your merely assuming. It could also be that the game sold 200k copies of the game the first 2 months, and only 25k the 2 months after that. Naturaly, the price would go down. However out of the 200k copies the first 2 months, only 20k people quit the game. Do you see where I'm going to? this is what also could have happened.However you say it happened the other way, that DDO sold poorly all those 4 months, with absolutely ZERO evidence. Trial isn't proof either.
Your merely assuming. you don't have any facts to support your arguement.
Actually, no. SWG changes were annnounce on the ATTACK OF THE SHOW on
G4 nearly months ago! EQ2 has long since add PvP just to spice thing
up, which they've been announce for~~ever. So none of what I said about
those games was an assumption.
As for DDO...
http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
90k subscribers in the beginning. It got medicore reviews from game
analyzist and players. The game has been declining since. The creators
of DDO said they weren't going to add Solo (they even made a mpeg about
it) and they aren't were going to add PvP. Yet, when the number of
players declined, they tried to vamp as another clone MMORPG and it
still didn't do anything to bring the people back or help to bring in
new fans. Whheeeeeeeee.
And here's were We3 analogy falls apart. We3 believes kids are what
bring down an rpg. Well guess what, kids make up the majority of video
game market. Turbine created the game for 20 to 25 years old, which
didn't help them at all. Moreover, most of the DnD fans are older
people. You can't keep using the same system your dad used when he was
a kid and expect to get new people.
BTW, your assumption
about the subscribers was just idiotic because all games have had many
of their players leave/ban and it doesn't hurt the price of the game at
all. It's hurts the game if no one buys it. Meet Joe Black made a lot
of money even though it sucked and people didn't even stay 5 minutes
for the movie. It stayed in the movies for a few months longer. You
know why? Because of the Star Wars Episode I movie preview was attached
to it.
Again, CaptainRPG: Point out EXACTLY where I ignored you or any of your "arguments" (regardless of how opinionated or inaccurate they were). When you find an issue where I did not reply to your points, let me know and I will be happy to debate those points.
I replied to you, point by point. Where possible, I quoted information from both the 2nd Edition and the 3.5 Edition, actual quotes, paraphrases and/or page number.
You introduced a ridiculous argument trying to validate a lifetime of specialization in multiple areas by using the Army and high school football as examples, whereupon I replied to each of your points, again, regardless of how inaccurate they were. I pointed out where your arguments were invalid and you continued to attempt to press them. That is a perfect example of circular reasoning. Rather than just admit that either they were poor examples, or, more specifically, that your original argument was incorrect, you continued throwing out irrelevant information that did nothing to prove your point.
Finally, rather than continue to simply debate, you decide instead to begin insulting me and ultimately, decided to "ignore" me (while still insulting me). That is the last bastion of an individual who realizes either their argument is invalid or they lack any actual data besides their opinion to support their argument, or both.
We've had this little run around before, CaptainRPG, back in this thread;
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/73232
You lacked information then, you made statements with no factual data, you failed to understand or outright ignored the factual data provided to you, you changed the argument when your point was proven invalid and you resorted to insults when you failed to prove your points. Exactly as you have done in this thread.
Abbatoir / Abbatoir Cinq
Adnihilo
Beorn Judge's Edge
Somnulus
Perfect Black
----------------------
Asheron's Call / Asheron's Call 2
Everquest / Everquest 2
Anarchy Online
Shadowbane
Dark Age of Camelot
Star Wars Galaxies
Matrix Online
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
City of Heroes
opine. I've played 2nd ed a bit a long while back but have been
playing 3.5 ed in the Eberron campaign for about a year now.
Also, I play a BARD of all things, so here is my take on them, CaptainRPG.
Here is my character sheet (needs a little updating but mostly current)
Yes, I have a lot of skillpoints and skills, and can do pretty much
damn everything. I am a generalist, variety is the spice of life,
etc. However I'm also a very important member of my party.
The song Inspire Courage along with the 1st level spel Inspirational
Boost (found in complete adventurer) gives everyone in my party a +3 to
attack and +3 to damage,(THAT STACKS WITH MOST THINGS)
immediately, for as long as they can hear me and for 5 rounds after i
bite the dust or stop. I'm able, with some other feats, to cast
bard spells, use wands, activate magic items, etc, while singing, and
because i specifically chose Performance[Singing] I can fight while
doing so (no instrument to keep in my hands, etc)
As for spells, our wizard is restricted from casting illusion and some
enchantment spells as per focussing on Evocation school, so i'm the
fall guy if you want invisibility, etc.
Also note at my communication skills. I am the party's 'face'. If they
want to discuss business whether it be with the King or some thug, I'm
the right guy for the job with my skills in diplomacy, bluff, and
intimidation. Also, because of my race and my playstyle, I'm able
to infiltrate many places unseen, acting as a spy for the party. I can
technically look like any major race, male or female.
While it's true that I'm a general class character and can do many
things half-assed, I really shine in a lot of areas. Also, in the
party I'm in, i'm the 2nd rank melee (1st is monk) 2nd rank healer
(first is druid) and 3rd class spellcaster. My attack bonus is
about half that of the fighter that used to be in the party, but i'm
tops at ranged combat with a whopping +10 to hit when singing.
Furthermore, you'l notice i'm multiclassing in the prestige class
Chameleon found in Races of Destiny supplement. This AUGMENTS my
abilities even more, even while relegating me to an extreme jack of all
trades.
With this class, in addition to my bardic abilities, I can spend one
hour a day shifting "aptitude focuses". Combat, Arcane, Divine,
Stealth, or Wild. They each add some small abilities to my skills
as well as the ability to technically be any class in the game,
literally.
With arcane focus, i gain a +2 to spellcraft and knowledge[arcana] as
well as +2 to my willsave. But, I also gain the ability to cast
*ANY* arcane based spells as a wizard with a level 2x my chameleon
level (this means i need a spellbook, components, and knowledge of the
spells, however) Divine focus, fairly the same thing, but i can
cast any divine spell (cleric, druid, ranger, shujenga, blackguard,
what have you) spells as per a cleric 2x my chameleon level.
With combat i gain an additional +2 +2 tohit/damage (increasing up to
+4). In other levels i gain the ability to have a "feat slot"
that i can substitute in any one feat i meat the prereqs for, once per
day. So I can act like a fighter with Cleave, or a ranger with rapid
shot, etc. and the next day cast spells as a wizard with empowered
spell metamagic.
Later on i have the ability to add 2/4/6 to any one stat, and the
ability to emulate class features a number of times per day (clerics
turn undead, paladin's smite, thief sneak attack, etc)
I become the ultimate jack of all trades, a character that can be
anyone or do anything (within reason). The disadvantages?
I have a relatively poor skill progression per level. I have a smaller hit die then most classes i can emulate.
A dedicated spellcaster can easily outclass me in spells, seeing as i
can only cast spells up to level 6, and not many (fewer than a
sorceror) and a barbarian or fighter could mop the floor with me.
Most of the abilities rely on surprise and subterfuge (you don't expect
some guy in a robe to suddenly bring out his longsword and crossbow and
be able to hit you! a spelcaster would have shat his robes) since i
regain my bard fighting ability, etc while in forms.
But thats not what my character is supposed to be. He 'fills in
the gaps' in my party. I can take the illusionist spells that the
wizard is forbidden to cast. I can supplement the healing of the
party. If the party needs an extra fighter, I'm there. We
have no rogues, and in stealth focus i gain trapsence and can disarm
traps like a rogue can. So while i'm the ultimate generalist, i'm
extremely "useful" to the party.
I was very excited about NWN2...then I bought it and played with some friends for about an hour.
If only you could return a faulty game like you could a faulty TV.
Which brings me to this point: If I hand the nice man at Best Buy a receipt and the product on the receipt and said, "This product was not as advertised and I am completely unsatisfied. I would like my money back." He would say one of two things: 1) I'm sorry to hear about that. I'll take the TV and give you your money back." or 2) "I'm sorry to hear about that but because it is a PC game we are unable to give your money back."
How long do we have to bend over and let gaming companies screw us? I should be able to get my money back from NWN2.
I have purchased NWN2 and can say after having played for at least 14 hours of the campaign, that is horribly slow.
I do not understand how Obsidian could justify slow load times vs. better graphics. The slow load times completely kills the immersion factor. These load times are a reminder of one of the other awful things about DDO. After thinking about it some more, I feel that the load times do hurt both games quite a bit. It's strange how for EQ2, the load times don't bother me as much.
And has anyone else noticed that the whole map/travel system kind of wrecks the immersion of the game? This is a game with no sense of geography. The single-player campaign just feels like a series of map modules linked together rather than an actual coherent story. And while the whole tooset may be a big selling point, if that's all there is, then this is decidedly a disappointment. I really, really wanted to love this game, but ever since I loaded it up, I've felt let down. There's a lot I like about it, but it's far from the leap forward I was hoping for this series.
TheFranchise wrote:
"I agree Somnulus talked a lot of 2.0; however, your knowledge of 3.5 and DDO is suspect,"
CaptainRPG wrote:
"Page 25, Krusk is smiling at you like an idiot on the same page where they explain how the barbarian class work. Now please shut up."
I didn't mention barbarians. I mentioned rogues and rangers.
You claim to know all about 3.5; so much so that you rewrote half the rules for your home game, yet you say things such as rangers can disable traps just like rogues can -- an incredibly basic rule. I bring it up, and you, as usual, disregard it and pretend your lack of 3.5 knowledge is not in question, which it most certainly is.
You don't know 3.5 rules, and you talk of DDO from the point of view of someone who has been powerleveled to 10 via the same quests over and over. You are also arrogant and rude. It is you who should shut up.
Signed,
An RPGA-certified GM