Originally posted by osc8r Originally posted by Gameloading
oh it offers looting, please forgive me for forgetting that "amazing huge concept"
Do people follow it? yes. Do a lot of people follow it? Heck No. In fact, If the game would be an Everquest clone, it would have more followers.
Scream all you want, but the facts go against you. the only Hardcore PVP game that is still going strong is EVE, and one has to wonder if the fact you lose items is even the main selling point of EVE.
What a moronic post. It sounds to me like you are just angry that this game doesnt cater for your carebear playing style (unlike the other 30 other EQ clones out there). Deal with it.
There are still heaps of people following the game (just look at how active their official forums are!) even though the game has been delayed time and time again! Im sure there are heaps of people like myself who arent really following the game anymore, that is until the beta is announced.
If you really believe the game would be more popular if it was just another EQ clone that brings nothing new to the MMORG scene - but on a smaller budget you really are delusional. See above posts.
Again, I reiterate there were and still are lots of people playing Darktide, UO (free shards, pre trammel), Tibia, Shadowbane, Eve etc There are also a lot of people bored with WOW's pointless PVP who will be looking for something more. In addition to this look at the AOC and Vanguard PVP forums, there is post after post from people requesting a hardcore server that offers FFA and looting.
There is a market for a new hardcore MMORPG, and the market is indeed big enough for Darkfall to be very successful. Obviously if you hang out in the Hello Kitty Online forums you likely wouldnt see this market, but it is there whether YOU see it or not.
Now off you run, back to WOW.
Chow.
Is there "a market" for such games? Of course there is.
Is it anything nearly the size of the market for games that do not feature full loot FFA PvP? Of course not. The market for games that feature (1) optional PvP and (2) PvP that is 'fun" (ie, non-consequential) is much, much, MUCH, larger than the market for full loot FFA PvP. That's what Gameloading is saying, and he's right. The devs are making games that will sell to more people rather than less people (it's called "having a business"). There's a market for FFA PvP games, but it's a small one.
I do hope that the FFA PvP crowd gets a game it likes, but you have to realize that the market for these kinds of games is small relative to the market for games that don't feature this, which means that fewer games of that type will be made.
As for Vanguard, I would find it very odd if that game featured FFA full loot PvP. The designers are 100% EQish. EQ's design (originally) was about hardcore PvE (in other words a "hardcore carebear game", to use the terminology of the hardcore PvP crowd), and everything I've seen from Sigil indicates that this is their focus. I'd be very surprised if the game featured FFA full loot PvP on release.
oh it offers looting, please forgive me for forgetting that "amazing huge concept"
Do people follow it? yes. Do a lot of people follow it? Heck No. In fact, If the game would be an Everquest clone, it would have more followers.
Scream all you want, but the facts go against you. the only Hardcore PVP game that is still going strong is EVE, and one has to wonder if the fact you lose items is even the main selling point of EVE.
What a moronic post. It sounds to me like you are just angry that this game doesnt cater for your carebear playing style (unlike the other 30 other EQ clones out there). Deal with it.
There are still heaps of people following the game (just look at how active their official forums are!) even though the game has been delayed time and time again! Im sure there are heaps of people like myself who arent really following the game anymore, that is until the beta is announced.
If you really believe the game would be more popular if it was just another EQ clone that brings nothing new to the MMORG scene - but on a smaller budget you really are delusional. See above posts.
Again, I reiterate there were and still are lots of people playing Darktide, UO (free shards, pre trammel), Tibia, Shadowbane, Eve etc There are also a lot of people bored with WOW's pointless PVP who will be looking for something more. In addition to this look at the AOC and Vanguard PVP forums, there is post after post from people requesting a hardcore server that offers FFA and looting.
There is a market for a new hardcore MMORPG, and the market is indeed big enough for Darkfall to be very successful. Obviously if you hang out in the Hello Kitty Online forums you likely wouldnt see this market, but it is there whether YOU see it or not.
Now off you run, back to WOW.
Chow.
Here we have a perfect example of a person that live up to the so called "Hardcore Kiddy" stereotype. Everybody that does not agree with his way is a "carebear", and everyone that doesn't support full item looting is a WoW player.
How you use those games as examples is laughable. Darktide is close to empty. Last report I heard from Zaxtor99 was that he was amazed a player base of 200+ was online, Shadowbane, yes, we all know what a big success that game was [/sarcasm] Tibia is popular for the same reason Runescape is popular, its free and has low system requirements. not to mention that the PVP is actually restricted, and you get a nice ban after 12 pk's, and, ofcourse, the server that actually promotes hardcore pvp is the least played of all Tibia servers. you say go look at the forums. count all those posts, you probably won't even find 1000 posts that support that PVP.
Also, the darkfall forums aren't THAT active. if your pointing out to the registered users, mind you the game has been in development since forever, and its forums have been up ever since.
At least I base this on facts, your merely assuming there is a market for it, but the facts go against that.
Its also funny how you try to swap away my comment where I stated that an EQ clone would be more successfull then FFA Hardcore pvp. especialy since World of Warcraft, who brought NOTHING new to the genre and is a polished Everquest clone, holds over 7,5 million players and holds over half of the mmorpg subscriber market. again, facts are facts.
the fact that your flaming me for actually pointing out the facts is amusing, but I suggest you drop that. if don't like it somebody says something negative about your game (which wasn't even about the game directly), then don't come to a forum where people share opinions & FACTS.
Don't go into discussion with me unless you bring some facts to back up your arguement. so far you have picked 2 games that seem to be on the edge of dying (AC and Shadowbane), a game that is partly against hardcore pvp, and has the lowest amount of players on the hardcore pvp server, and a game where it is questionable if the item looting is even the main selling point of the game.
oh it offers looting, please forgive me for forgetting that "amazing huge concept"
Do people follow it? yes. Do a lot of people follow it? Heck No. In fact, If the game would be an Everquest clone, it would have more followers.
Scream all you want, but the facts go against you. the only Hardcore PVP game that is still going strong is EVE, and one has to wonder if the fact you lose items is even the main selling point of EVE.
What a moronic post. It sounds to me like you are just angry that this game doesnt cater for your carebear playing style (unlike the other 30 other EQ clones out there). Deal with it.
There are still heaps of people following the game (just look at how active their official forums are!) even though the game has been delayed time and time again! Im sure there are heaps of people like myself who arent really following the game anymore, that is until the beta is announced.
If you really believe the game would be more popular if it was just another EQ clone that brings nothing new to the MMORG scene - but on a smaller budget you really are delusional. See above posts.
Again, I reiterate there were and still are lots of people playing Darktide, UO (free shards, pre trammel), Tibia, Shadowbane, Eve etc There are also a lot of people bored with WOW's pointless PVP who will be looking for something more. In addition to this look at the AOC and Vanguard PVP forums, there is post after post from people requesting a hardcore server that offers FFA and looting.
There is a market for a new hardcore MMORPG, and the market is indeed big enough for Darkfall to be very successful. Obviously if you hang out in the Hello Kitty Online forums you likely wouldnt see this market, but it is there whether YOU see it or not.
Now off you run, back to WOW.
Chow.
Here we have a perfect example of a person that live up to the so called "Hardcore Kiddy" stereotype. Everybody that does not agree with his way is a "carebear", and everyone that doesn't support full item looting is a WoW player.
How you use those games as examples is laughable. Darktide is close to empty. Last report I heard from Zaxtor99 was that he was amazed a player base of 200+ was online, Shadowbane, yes, we all know what a big success that game was [/sarcasm] Tibia is popular for the same reason Runescape is popular, its free and has low system requirements. not to mention that the PVP is actually restricted, and you get a nice ban after 12 pk's, and, ofcourse, the server that actually promotes hardcore pvp is the least played of all Tibia servers. you say go look at the forums. count all those posts, you probably won't even find 1000 posts that support that PVP.
Also, the darkfall forums aren't THAT active. if your pointing out to the registered users, mind you the game has been in development since forever, and its forums have been up ever since.
At least I base this on facts, your merely assuming there is a market for it, but the facts go against that.
Its also funny how you try to swap away my comment where I stated that an EQ clone would be more successfull then FFA Hardcore pvp. especialy since World of Warcraft, who brought NOTHING new to the genre and is a polished Everquest clone, holds over 7,5 million players and holds over half of the mmorpg subscriber market. again, facts are facts.
the fact that your flaming me for actually pointing out the facts is amusing, but I suggest you drop that. if don't like it somebody says something negative about your game (which wasn't even about the game directly), then don't come to a forum where people share opinions.
Meh, Shadowbane failed cause it had a million bugs at release, the servers couldn't handle all the people it was so packed initially.
WoW grabbed customers with the Warcraft name, it continued to succeed due to lack of bugs and the "friendly to all gamer types" atmosphere. It was alos the first MMORPG for a LOT of people, again, due to the brand name. Most veteran PvPers started leaving, but many of come back due to simple lack of options.
I do agree games like WoW, where multiple gaming styles are targeted, are and will be more successful than games like Darkfall. However, Darkfall is the only game aside from possibly AoC with the the potential to monopolize the heavy PvP crowd. Even if that is the only crowd, it's significant amount.
So there's a basic arguement for your basic arguement, though next time let's just go back a few pages and copy/paste our comments, heh.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
I won't quote, or else I will get more quotion complains but this post is directed at Awakened's post
Shadowbane indeed had a lot of bugs, but a lot of them got fixed, and it now has a reasonable amount of bugs. yet even now, with the game fully free, the amount of players are minimum.
I'm sure the Warcraft name pulled a lot of players, but thats not the full reason it became a success. above all, its also an excellent game. if it was only based on name recognition, then FFXI and SWG would be up there right with WoW. but thats not really the point I'm trying to make, because quality game or not, its still an Everquest clone that holds millions of players, where "Hardcore" pvp MMO's are in the vast minority.
I know Darkfall is trying to gather the hardcore pvp market, which is not the point I was trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is the size of that market, which is, according to MMORPG's, very small. as I said, hardcore pvp servers are the least played servers, and even UO changed its pvp ways.
I'm not argueing that the PvP market is much smaller than the "typical" player market, I'm only argueing that it's large enough to support a MMORPG. Shadowbane's playerbase is still small, but let's face it, it STILL has a ton of bugs, it's not noob friendly at all (it's biggest killer IMO), and it's just plain old now.
You like asian games yeah? I think the fact that L2 is still up and running is a good example of how PvP is still attactive to a lot of people.
I think you and I agree for the most part on these issues, but I personally feel the PvP market is larger than people give it credit for - due largely in part to the fact I personally know roughly 100 or so players that are currently not playing anything until another good PvP game is released.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
It's amazing how many rationalizations people come up with to account for WoW's unprecedented success. Yes, WoW had the WC and Blizzard names, which helped a lot. But that doesn't sustain a game for 2 years, and neither does the lack of bugs. WoW is a very well made, fun game for most people, and significantly less fun for the hardcore gamer crowd. It wasn't aimed at the latter audience. That doesn't make it a bad game ... it's a great game aimed at a more generalist, casual, mass market audience.
If you read the smart stuff coming from dev mouths about this, you'll see it there as well. Read what the Vanguard folks (who are unabashedly designing a game for the hardcore crowd, which they refer to as "core MMO players") have said about the market for their game as compared with some other existing games. They've said it's a question of target audience and WoW and EQ2 were aimed at a broader audience as the target, while accepting "core" gamers ... whereas Vanguard is aimed at "core gamers" while accepting people from the broader market.
Vanguard will never be as successful commercially as WoW because of this. Does that mean it will fail? Of course not. EVE is a success with ~170k accounts. But what some of us are saying is that because there is this big disparity in market size, you are always going to have far fewer games being produced that cater to the smaller market. There will always be more WoWs with more subs than there will be EVE's (and EVE accounts). It's just a difference in the size of the market.
Originally posted by Signe Originally posted by nikoa Personally I am waiting for Vanguard which will have looting as well.
Vanguard has looting? Where did you see that? I'm curious because I haven't seen anything on it. For some reason I didn't think the PvP was going to be very intense in Vanguard.
Edit: I thought I should mention that I've seen looting discussed among fans and all, I just haven't seen it mentioned by a dev of staffer that it was an actual feature.
Crap, I went to find it so I can send you a link but either a) The website changed and I cannot find it b) I was thinking about a different game and that is why the website is different. Sorry for not being able to support my statement.
Current Games: EVE, WoW Have Played: EQ1, EQ2, CoH, CoX, MXO, GW, Silk Road, WAR, AoC, Anarchy Online, UO, DDO
When Darkfall comes out I will buy it and give it a go, and here is why:
"These guys are hardcore guild-oriented PVPers...consequently, the MMO they're developing is designed for players like them. The difference between playing other mass-market MMOs and Darkfall will be like having a 'McDonald's meal vs the special burger' explains Grovdal."
"For example, you will be able to PVP anywhere on the map. As I've seen in other MMOs, this concept can be a scary one for those who get frustrated when "ganked" or attacked unexpectedly. To add to your fears, when you die your body can be completelylooted by your opponent."
"With a very sophisticated notoriety system. Darkfall might just generate an elf quest rewarding the person who kills the most notorious elf killer....there would be some sort of a bounty system in place to get back at offenders."
"You won't need to worry about portal or zone camping since there is no zoning between areas in Darkfall."
"There are also no levels in this game."
"And unlike certain MMOs where you can find platemail on a rat, Darkfall will have none of that. What you see is what you get. On that same note, if you fight an orc that's using an axe but then switches to a club, when he dies you will be able to loot both the axe and club off of his body, as well as his armor and the contents of his entire inventory."
"Helland explained that the AI in the game would be far more advanced than what gamers are used to seeing in other MMOs. 'The AI mimicks players as much as possible,' he said, 'like Quake bots.' The AI is also smart enough to notice when people are camping spawns. In-game events can be triggered to stir things up, encouraging parties to continue exploration rather than stay in one spot."
"Darkfall features naval combat in a fantasy MMO."
"As for how the combat looks, you can see physical bleeding and armor decay as you beat someone down. "We do have decapitation and skull crushing in this game," says Oren smiling."
"Although the game draws much inspiration from Ultima Online and Shadowbane, unlike both of those MMOs, they don't plan on releasing it until they are content that it's a finished product.They are making the game that they have always wanted to play and they will not compromise. They know they're catering to a niche market and they're content doing so. And if they don't get a publisher, they are prepared to self-publish to see this vision become a reality."
Originally posted by sempiternal When Darkfall comes out I will buy it and give it a go, and here is why: "These guys are hardcore guild-oriented PVPers...consequently, the MMO they're developing is designed for players like them. The difference between playing other mass-market MMOs and Darkfall will be like having a 'McDonald's meal vs the special burger' explains Grovdal." "For example, you will be able to PVP anywhere on the map. As I've seen in other MMOs, this concept can be a scary one for those who get frustrated when "ganked" or attacked unexpectedly. To add to your fears, when you die your body can be completelylooted by your opponent." "With a very sophisticated notoriety system. Darkfall might just generate an elf quest rewarding the person who kills the most notorious elf killer....there would be some sort of a bounty system in place to get back at offenders." "You won't need to worry about portal or zone camping since there is no zoning between areas in Darkfall." "There are also no levels in this game." "And unlike certain MMOs where you can find platemail on a rat, Darkfall will have none of that. What you see is what you get. On that same note, if you fight an orc that's using an axe but then switches to a club, when he dies you will be able to loot both the axe and club off of his body, as well as his armor and the contents of his entire inventory." "Helland explained that the AI in the game would be far more advanced than what gamers are used to seeing in other MMOs. 'The AI mimicks players as much as possible,' he said, 'like Quake bots.' The AI is also smart enough to notice when people are camping spawns. In-game events can be triggered to stir things up, encouraging parties to continue exploration rather than stay in one spot." "Darkfall features naval combat in a fantasy MMO." "As for how the combat looks, you can see physical bleeding and armor decay as you beat someone down. "We do have decapitation and skull crushing in this game," says Oren smiling." "Although the game draws much inspiration from Ultima Online and Shadowbane, unlike both of those MMOs, they don't plan on releasing it until they are content that it's a finished product.They are making the game that they have always wanted to play and they will not compromise. They know they're catering to a niche market and they're content doing so. And if they don't get a publisher, they are prepared to self-publish to see this vision become a reality."
Wow that sounds amazing!
Current Games: EVE, WoW Have Played: EQ1, EQ2, CoH, CoX, MXO, GW, Silk Road, WAR, AoC, Anarchy Online, UO, DDO
Here we have a perfect example of a person that live up to the so called "Hardcore Kiddy" stereotype. Everybody that does not agree with his way is a "carebear", and everyone that doesn't support full item looting is a WoW player.
How you use those games as examples is laughable. Darktide is close to empty. Last report I heard from Zaxtor99 was that he was amazed a player base of 200+ was online, Shadowbane, yes, we all know what a big success that game was [/sarcasm] Tibia is popular for the same reason Runescape is popular, its free and has low system requirements. not to mention that the PVP is actually restricted, and you get a nice ban after 12 pk's, and, ofcourse, the server that actually promotes hardcore pvp is the least played of all Tibia servers. you say go look at the forums. count all those posts, you probably won't even find 1000 posts that support that PVP.
Also, the darkfall forums aren't THAT active. if your pointing out to the registered users, mind you the game has been in development since forever, and its forums have been up ever since.
At least I base this on facts, your merely assuming there is a market for it, but the facts go against that.
Its also funny how you try to swap away my comment where I stated that an EQ clone would be more successfull then FFA Hardcore pvp. especialy since World of Warcraft, who brought NOTHING new to the genre and is a polished Everquest clone, holds over 7,5 million players and holds over half of the mmorpg subscriber market. again, facts are facts.
the fact that your flaming me for actually pointing out the facts is amusing, but I suggest you drop that. if don't like it somebody says something negative about your game (which wasn't even about the game directly), then don't come to a forum where people share opinions & FACTS.
Don't go into discussion with me unless you bring some facts to back up your arguement. so far you have picked 2 games that seem to be on the edge of dying (AC and Shadowbane), a game that is partly against hardcore pvp, and has the lowest amount of players on the hardcore pvp server, and a game where it is questionable if the item looting is even the main selling point of the game.
Again, you are just regurgitating that same crap over and over. Your so called facts just merely show that PVE / carebear servers are more popular. No one is arguing against that fact and you seem to be the only one who fails to understand this.
If there were no market for the hardcore crowd these hardcore servers wouldnt exist. The fact is where they do exist they are populated and even more so when the game was fresh / modern. There have being no games recently that have catered for this hardcore crowd and there is a business opportunity right there.
And unless you can bring something of relevance to this discussion Im going to leave you to it.
Originally posted by sempiternal When Darkfall comes out I will buy it and give it a go, and here is why: "These guys are hardcore guild-oriented PVPers...consequently, the MMO they're developing is designed for players like them. The difference between playing other mass-market MMOs and Darkfall will be like having a 'McDonald's meal vs the special burger' explains Grovdal." "For example, you will be able to PVP anywhere on the map. As I've seen in other MMOs, this concept can be a scary one for those who get frustrated when "ganked" or attacked unexpectedly. To add to your fears, when you die your body can be completelylooted by your opponent." "With a very sophisticated notoriety system. Darkfall might just generate an elf quest rewarding the person who kills the most notorious elf killer....there would be some sort of a bounty system in place to get back at offenders." "You won't need to worry about portal or zone camping since there is no zoning between areas in Darkfall." "There are also no levels in this game." "And unlike certain MMOs where you can find platemail on a rat, Darkfall will have none of that. What you see is what you get. On that same note, if you fight an orc that's using an axe but then switches to a club, when he dies you will be able to loot both the axe and club off of his body, as well as his armor and the contents of his entire inventory." "Helland explained that the AI in the game would be far more advanced than what gamers are used to seeing in other MMOs. 'The AI mimicks players as much as possible,' he said, 'like Quake bots.' The AI is also smart enough to notice when people are camping spawns. In-game events can be triggered to stir things up, encouraging parties to continue exploration rather than stay in one spot." "Darkfall features naval combat in a fantasy MMO." "As for how the combat looks, you can see physical bleeding and armor decay as you beat someone down. "We do have decapitation and skull crushing in this game," says Oren smiling." "Although the game draws much inspiration from Ultima Online and Shadowbane, unlike both of those MMOs, they don't plan on releasing it until they are content that it's a finished product.They are making the game that they have always wanted to play and they will not compromise. They know they're catering to a niche market and they're content doing so. And if they don't get a publisher, they are prepared to self-publish to see this vision become a reality."
Wow that sounds amazing!
QUOTED FOR TRUTH
if they have what they promise to have there is ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER GAME THAT COMPARES, at least a PVP game (AOC WAR any of them, say they have an awesome feature and DF will have it and more)
GAMELOADING: it is very possible that this game will not have massive numbers (like games in WOW's era). for 35.000 registered people on the forums without even a beta date there are much much more that are calling it vaporware but would gladly play it if it went into beta and is in decent shape. I would not be astonished if DF releases in good shape and most features in that it will have around 100-150k subscribers.
Thats not alot i know, but its enough to keep the game up there and give the small dev team in Greece a nice chunk of change for their efforts for so many years, so it's worth it to them and definetly worth it for us, the old gamers tired of the same old........
Originally posted by osc8r Again, you are just regurgitating that same crap over and over. Your so called facts just merely show that PVE / carebear servers are more popular. No one is arguing against that fact and you seem to be the only one who fails to understand this.
If there were no market for the hardcore crowd these hardcore servers wouldnt exist. The fact is where they do exist they are populated and even more so when the game was fresh / modern. There have being no games recently that have catered for this hardcore crowd and there is a business opportunity right there.
And unless you can bring something of relevance to this discussion Im going to leave you to it.
OK so we can all agree that there is a subset of the MMORPG population that does support FFA full looting. The question now is, "Is this population large enough to support a game?" Lets look at some other games:
UO - we can safely say no. They had to implement less FFA to stay afloat.
Shadowbane - No. Now gone free and still low pops
Eve - hmm maybe. What is the draw? pvp? sandbox? space? some combination of the above? Are the people that play playing it because of the pvp or some other option?
There could be but it will be kinda close. Personally I don't believe that there is a big enough market. Thats certainly not why I am looking at Darkfall, I am interested in some of the other features (I really hope that have flight at some time). FFA does not really appeal to me most of the time, but the gameplay looks more free and so I will probably try it. We need to get some hard numbers. What we need is some enterprising person to have a massive survey filled and published by all the major gaming companies:
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
^ unfortunatly they decided to leave flight out of the game
i believe in the early stages there were plans for flying mounts, but that just imbalances things in the PVP and game overall. Why have walls in your guild's city when you can fly over them? why have mounts when you can fly? why have pirate ships when you can just fly?
it's logical and thats another reason i hope for the best for the developers: they are logical with the way they explain their reasoning, from chainmail on the rat issue to housing destruction to flying.
Originally posted by osc8r Originally posted by Gameloading
Here we have a perfect example of a person that live up to the so called "Hardcore Kiddy" stereotype. Everybody that does not agree with his way is a "carebear", and everyone that doesn't support full item looting is a WoW player.
How you use those games as examples is laughable. Darktide is close to empty. Last report I heard from Zaxtor99 was that he was amazed a player base of 200+ was online, Shadowbane, yes, we all know what a big success that game was [/sarcasm] Tibia is popular for the same reason Runescape is popular, its free and has low system requirements. not to mention that the PVP is actually restricted, and you get a nice ban after 12 pk's, and, ofcourse, the server that actually promotes hardcore pvp is the least played of all Tibia servers. you say go look at the forums. count all those posts, you probably won't even find 1000 posts that support that PVP.
Also, the darkfall forums aren't THAT active. if your pointing out to the registered users, mind you the game has been in development since forever, and its forums have been up ever since.
At least I base this on facts, your merely assuming there is a market for it, but the facts go against that.
Its also funny how you try to swap away my comment where I stated that an EQ clone would be more successfull then FFA Hardcore pvp. especialy since World of Warcraft, who brought NOTHING new to the genre and is a polished Everquest clone, holds over 7,5 million players and holds over half of the mmorpg subscriber market. again, facts are facts.
the fact that your flaming me for actually pointing out the facts is amusing, but I suggest you drop that. if don't like it somebody says something negative about your game (which wasn't even about the game directly), then don't come to a forum where people share opinions & FACTS.
Don't go into discussion with me unless you bring some facts to back up your arguement. so far you have picked 2 games that seem to be on the edge of dying (AC and Shadowbane), a game that is partly against hardcore pvp, and has the lowest amount of players on the hardcore pvp server, and a game where it is questionable if the item looting is even the main selling point of the game.
Again, you are just regurgitating that same crap over and over. Your so called facts just merely show that PVE / carebear servers are more popular. No one is arguing against that fact and you seem to be the only one who fails to understand this.
If there were no market for the hardcore crowd these hardcore servers wouldnt exist. The fact is where they do exist they are populated and even more so when the game was fresh / modern. There have being no games recently that have catered for this hardcore crowd and there is a business opportunity right there.
And unless you can bring something of relevance to this discussion Im going to leave you to it.
And this is why no one takes your post seriously. You can't go one post without using the word "carebear". Makes your post sound as retarded as the southern white people that think all black people are lazy. When they know maybe all of about zero black people. No one here has even tried to argue that there is no market for FFA PvP. People here are arguing that it's not a lucrative market, hence why you don't see publisher, and developers alike. Trying to create FFA PvP games.
Honestly at this point. I seriously doubt Darkfall will live up to 1/4th of the features they claim to be implimenting. That's if it actually ever makes it out the door.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
And this is why no one takes your post seriously. You can't go one post without using the word "carebear". Makes your post sound as retarded as the southern white people that think all black people are lazy. When they know maybe all of about zero black people. No one here has even tried to argue that there is no market for FFA PvP. People here are arguing that it's not a lucrative market, hence why you don't see publisher, and developers alike. Trying to create FFA PvP games.
Honestly at this point. I seriously doubt Darkfall will live up to 1/4th of the features they claim to be implimenting. That's if it actually ever makes it out the door. You know what, the term carebear pretty much means people who dont enjoy player vs player or death penalties. I dont mean it in a derogatory term, but it is widely used and helps convey the point I am making. If it offends you, I am terribly terribly sorry.
And you do see publishers and developers trying to make FFA PVP games, well, we do know.
Why are you people whining that there isn't market for FFA PvP game? Theres what, 15 million MMORPG players in the world? Maybe alot more. A MMORPG needs something like 100-150k to be succesful, right? With the feature list of Darkfall that shouldn't be anykind of problem. And how is there bigger chance of succes if you make another PvE/concensual PvP game? You think it would be easy to compete with WoW, VG, WAR, Conan etc.? Think again. Darkfall definetly fills a large hole in the MMORPG market. If they improve their PR (and finish their game) they will do just fine.
Originally posted by sacred_band "Open pvp games never ever last." Tibia has been around since 1997 with kill anyone anywhere pvp and is still growing, a game with good open pvp system can have gameboy graphics and still show up on top ten subscriber lists for 10 years
so peeps are suckers if something is free
try getting a 10 dollar monthly fee on tibia the game world would be empty in a month
Originally posted by sacred_band "Open pvp games never ever last." Tibia has been around since 1997 with kill anyone anywhere pvp and is still growing, a game with good open pvp system can have gameboy graphics and still show up on top ten subscriber lists for 10 years
Well ... an open PvP game *can* last if it has something that makes the fighting worth it. EVE is an example of this: it's FFA zone is open PvP with large death consequences, but what keeps it interesting is the concept of fighting over territories, shifting alliances and politics, and the fact that on one server, you really can make a name for yourself in the entire game if you really want to. If you don't have anything built up around the open PvP, it becomes a lot less compelling for players.
If a open pvp game gets regulated to the point you can't call it a reall open pvp game anymore sure it may work. But basic open pvp withouth any way to prevent or discouragement of griefing won't work.
Basically with EvE you have area where you can and ereas where you can't really PvP(yeah you can but conseqeunces are pretty drastic). So basically if you call this a open PvP game you can call DAoC an open PvP game. He you can hit someone in the enemies zone just hard to get passed the freaking gate.
Originally posted by holythough Open pvp games never ever last. Originally posted by holythough Loosing all loot on death gives too much change on griefing this never ever worked in any mmorpg.
Well, it's a good thing EVE and UO didn't last huh? Both have FFA PVP and Item Loss.
I don't consider EvE to be an open PvP game with the whole concorde and reputation construction. Actaully that just makes my point. Whithouth a lot of regulating mechanismes open pvp just doesn't work.
As for UO you might be right about that, one of the few games thats open pvp and has a fee on it to keep the kiddies away. It must be like open pvp fan fest heaven or something they have to go somewhere
**wipes forhead** *Whew* I'm glad nobody plays those games anymore. What were they thinking? Ppl musta got bored after 8yrs of UO.
All those 200,000(or so) accounts on each game are just trials.
Ppl's ignorance is amazing. Go back and play your Paladin WoW Carebear.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar But did you lose ALL you loot? I've never played UO or eve so I don't know. If you do then is point is invalid. If however you only lose 1 item, then your point is invalid. Venge Sunsoar
No in UO you do not lose your loot. To keep their customer base from the mass exodus they were experiencing early in the game UO developed another zone where looting bodies was not permitted. Within a month every player was in the new "no looting" zone and wouldnt leave. To get people to actually travel to the "body looting" zone they had to implement a system called insurance, in addition to other incentives like double loot, gold, minerals, ...... Which essentially allows the player to keep all of thier best items from being looted on death. So now even in the "body looting" zone (which is still unpopular compared to the "no looting" zone) a person never loses anything valuable.
Dont know about Eve but UO cannot be counted in the lose your loot on death MMO.
And eve has insurance too.
Another good point made
another proof that open pvp concept just doesn't work
in uo they created a zone where the looting was possible and 90% of the peeps never ever left it anymore how suprising
Originally posted by Gameloading oh it offers looting, please forgive me for forgetting that "amazing huge concept" Do people follow it? yes. Do a lot of people follow it? Heck No. In fact, If the game would be an Everquest clone, it would have more followers. Scream all you want, but the facts go against you. the only Hardcore PVP game that is still going strong is EVE, and one has to wonder if the fact you lose items is even the main selling point of EVE.
It's not the main focus in EVE, but it is a pretty big focus. Looting players is much better than looting mobs.
Plus, Darkfall and EVE will be mainly focused on the same thing: Community and Warfare.
In Darkfall, (so the devs say) you will be able to build cities from scratch and hire NPC guards and vendors to run your city. Cities will help control territory and that territory is defended for the materials it contains for crafting. The world is supposed to be very expansive, giving alot of movement freedom w/o stepping on someone elses toes.
Shadowbane again
Shadowbane had the same story you can actaully play that game for free now, most bugs are gone it's a pretty enjoyable game if your into open PvP
I actaully think EvE proves that withouth a lot of regulating factors on the PvPing open pvp doesn't work. People can be assholes in game killing the fun of another person so there must be regulating factors to make it work. EvE succes is largely because the revised an succesfull system to regulate pvp but because of this you can't really call it open pvp anymore
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar UO - we can safely say no. They had to implement less FFA to stay afloat.
That is not factual at all. UO was doing very well without a carebear land. UO steadilty grew to 185,000 subscribers over a span of two and a half years while it was completely open PvP and full loot - no consensual PvP whatsoever.
Six months after the consensual only Trammel was piggybacked on to the open PvP full loot world, the game had only grown by 15,000 more subscriptions. 15k is very little next to 185k.
The highest subscriptions since the consensual only Trammel was added were only 65,000 more and it was a very short lived peak surrounding the Age of Shadows release. For most of the time since the consensual Trammel was introduced, the game has not grown.
Since Trammel was added to the open PvP full loot game, UO has actually lost 55,000 subscribers overall and now sits around 130,000. The game stopped growing and is dying now. Many say the consensual only game world piggyback onto the open PvP full loot game, killed the "game."
Here we have a perfect example of a person that live up to the so called "Hardcore Kiddy" stereotype. Everybody that does not agree with his way is a "carebear", and everyone that doesn't support full item looting is a WoW player.
How you use those games as examples is laughable. Darktide is close to empty. Last report I heard from Zaxtor99 was that he was amazed a player base of 200+ was online, Shadowbane, yes, we all know what a big success that game was [/sarcasm] Tibia is popular for the same reason Runescape is popular, its free and has low system requirements. not to mention that the PVP is actually restricted, and you get a nice ban after 12 pk's, and, ofcourse, the server that actually promotes hardcore pvp is the least played of all Tibia servers. you say go look at the forums. count all those posts, you probably won't even find 1000 posts that support that PVP.
Also, the darkfall forums aren't THAT active. if your pointing out to the registered users, mind you the game has been in development since forever, and its forums have been up ever since.
At least I base this on facts, your merely assuming there is a market for it, but the facts go against that.
Its also funny how you try to swap away my comment where I stated that an EQ clone would be more successfull then FFA Hardcore pvp. especialy since World of Warcraft, who brought NOTHING new to the genre and is a polished Everquest clone, holds over 7,5 million players and holds over half of the mmorpg subscriber market. again, facts are facts.
the fact that your flaming me for actually pointing out the facts is amusing, but I suggest you drop that. if don't like it somebody says something negative about your game (which wasn't even about the game directly), then don't come to a forum where people share opinions & FACTS.
Don't go into discussion with me unless you bring some facts to back up your arguement. so far you have picked 2 games that seem to be on the edge of dying (AC and Shadowbane), a game that is partly against hardcore pvp, and has the lowest amount of players on the hardcore pvp server, and a game where it is questionable if the item looting is even the main selling point of the game.
Again, you are just regurgitating that same crap over and over. Your so called facts just merely show that PVE / carebear servers are more popular. No one is arguing against that fact and you seem to be the only one who fails to understand this.
If there were no market for the hardcore crowd these hardcore servers wouldnt exist. The fact is where they do exist they are populated and even more so when the game was fresh / modern. There have being no games recently that have catered for this hardcore crowd and there is a business opportunity right there.
The fact that for most games have at least one "hardcore" server where there's open PvP is the reason why developing a independent ffa open pvp game is not commercial viable. The whole hardcore open pvp gamming community is already segmented over numerrous games that are grapihically appealing. The only reall change darkfall is going to bring is looting. I suriously doubt if the whole segmented hardcore ffa open pvp community is going over to darkfall
It's not just a qeustion if there's enough player base to support an ffs open pvp game. The reall qeustion is if you can make it commercial viable to make suchs a good ffa open pvp game to attrackt enough of that market. The answer is NO. This is not because lack of people but mainly because of the attitude of the people that want open pvp in general. Wanting looting and open PvP is just saying you want a game where you can irretate people and there no obstakels doing this, don't say this isn't treu because if it wheren't treu you would go for an consentual pvp game where there are PvP erea's like WoW or DAoC etc.
You would have your PvP and a erea where the people who like to PvP come together. All other arguments are just centered around the frustration of certain people that the can't grief people in game when they want too.
And unless you can bring something of relevance to this discussion Im going to leave you to it.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar UO - we can safely say no. They had to implement less FFA to stay afloat.
That is not factual at all. UO was doing very well without a carebear land. UO steadilty grew to 185,000 subscribers over a span of two and a half years while it was completely open PvP and full loot - no consensual PvP whatsoever.
Six months after the consensual only Trammel was piggybacked on to the open PvP full loot world, the game had only grown by 15,000 more subscriptions. 15k is very little next to 185k.
The highest subscriptions since the consensual only Trammel was added were only 65,000 more and it was a very short lived peak surrounding the Age of Shadows release. For most of the time since the consensual Trammel was introduced, the game has not grown.
Since Trammel was added to the open PvP full loot game, UO has actually lost 55,000 subscribers overall and now sits around 130,000. The game stopped growing and is dying now. Many say the consensual only game world piggyback onto the open PvP full loot game, killed the "game."
UO only did well with open pvp till the point there where actaully games out there that offert a surious competition
Comments
oh it offers looting, please forgive me for forgetting that "amazing huge concept"
Do people follow it? yes. Do a lot of people follow it? Heck No. In fact, If the game would be an Everquest clone, it would have more followers.
Scream all you want, but the facts go against you. the only Hardcore PVP game that is still going strong is EVE, and one has to wonder if the fact you lose items is even the main selling point of EVE.
What a moronic post. It sounds to me like you are just angry that this game doesnt cater for your carebear playing style (unlike the other 30 other EQ clones out there). Deal with it.
There are still heaps of people following the game (just look at how active their official forums are!) even though the game has been delayed time and time again! Im sure there are heaps of people like myself who arent really following the game anymore, that is until the beta is announced.
If you really believe the game would be more popular if it was just another EQ clone that brings nothing new to the MMORG scene - but on a smaller budget you really are delusional. See above posts.
Again, I reiterate there were and still are lots of people playing Darktide, UO (free shards, pre trammel), Tibia, Shadowbane, Eve etc There are also a lot of people bored with WOW's pointless PVP who will be looking for something more. In addition to this look at the AOC and Vanguard PVP forums, there is post after post from people requesting a hardcore server that offers FFA and looting.
There is a market for a new hardcore MMORPG, and the market is indeed big enough for Darkfall to be very successful. Obviously if you hang out in the Hello Kitty Online forums you likely wouldnt see this market, but it is there whether YOU see it or not.
Now off you run, back to WOW.
Chow.
Is there "a market" for such games? Of course there is.
Is it anything nearly the size of the market for games that do not feature full loot FFA PvP? Of course not. The market for games that feature (1) optional PvP and (2) PvP that is 'fun" (ie, non-consequential) is much, much, MUCH, larger than the market for full loot FFA PvP. That's what Gameloading is saying, and he's right. The devs are making games that will sell to more people rather than less people (it's called "having a business"). There's a market for FFA PvP games, but it's a small one.
I do hope that the FFA PvP crowd gets a game it likes, but you have to realize that the market for these kinds of games is small relative to the market for games that don't feature this, which means that fewer games of that type will be made.
As for Vanguard, I would find it very odd if that game featured FFA full loot PvP. The designers are 100% EQish. EQ's design (originally) was about hardcore PvE (in other words a "hardcore carebear game", to use the terminology of the hardcore PvP crowd), and everything I've seen from Sigil indicates that this is their focus. I'd be very surprised if the game featured FFA full loot PvP on release.
oh it offers looting, please forgive me for forgetting that "amazing huge concept"
Do people follow it? yes. Do a lot of people follow it? Heck No. In fact, If the game would be an Everquest clone, it would have more followers.
Scream all you want, but the facts go against you. the only Hardcore PVP game that is still going strong is EVE, and one has to wonder if the fact you lose items is even the main selling point of EVE.
What a moronic post. It sounds to me like you are just angry that this game doesnt cater for your carebear playing style (unlike the other 30 other EQ clones out there). Deal with it.
There are still heaps of people following the game (just look at how active their official forums are!) even though the game has been delayed time and time again! Im sure there are heaps of people like myself who arent really following the game anymore, that is until the beta is announced.
If you really believe the game would be more popular if it was just another EQ clone that brings nothing new to the MMORG scene - but on a smaller budget you really are delusional. See above posts.
Again, I reiterate there were and still are lots of people playing Darktide, UO (free shards, pre trammel), Tibia, Shadowbane, Eve etc There are also a lot of people bored with WOW's pointless PVP who will be looking for something more. In addition to this look at the AOC and Vanguard PVP forums, there is post after post from people requesting a hardcore server that offers FFA and looting.
There is a market for a new hardcore MMORPG, and the market is indeed big enough for Darkfall to be very successful. Obviously if you hang out in the Hello Kitty Online forums you likely wouldnt see this market, but it is there whether YOU see it or not.
Now off you run, back to WOW.
Chow.
Here we have a perfect example of a person that live up to the so called "Hardcore Kiddy" stereotype. Everybody that does not agree with his way is a "carebear", and everyone that doesn't support full item looting is a WoW player.
How you use those games as examples is laughable. Darktide is close to empty. Last report I heard from Zaxtor99 was that he was amazed a player base of 200+ was online, Shadowbane, yes, we all know what a big success that game was [/sarcasm] Tibia is popular for the same reason Runescape is popular, its free and has low system requirements. not to mention that the PVP is actually restricted, and you get a nice ban after 12 pk's, and, ofcourse, the server that actually promotes hardcore pvp is the least played of all Tibia servers. you say go look at the forums. count all those posts, you probably won't even find 1000 posts that support that PVP.
Also, the darkfall forums aren't THAT active. if your pointing out to the registered users, mind you the game has been in development since forever, and its forums have been up ever since.
At least I base this on facts, your merely assuming there is a market for it, but the facts go against that.
Its also funny how you try to swap away my comment where I stated that an EQ clone would be more successfull then FFA Hardcore pvp. especialy since World of Warcraft, who brought NOTHING new to the genre and is a polished Everquest clone, holds over 7,5 million players and holds over half of the mmorpg subscriber market. again, facts are facts.
the fact that your flaming me for actually pointing out the facts is amusing, but I suggest you drop that. if don't like it somebody says something negative about your game (which wasn't even about the game directly), then don't come to a forum where people share opinions & FACTS.
Don't go into discussion with me unless you bring some facts to back up your arguement. so far you have picked 2 games that seem to be on the edge of dying (AC and Shadowbane), a game that is partly against hardcore pvp, and has the lowest amount of players on the hardcore pvp server, and a game where it is questionable if the item looting is even the main selling point of the game.
oh it offers looting, please forgive me for forgetting that "amazing huge concept"
Do people follow it? yes. Do a lot of people follow it? Heck No. In fact, If the game would be an Everquest clone, it would have more followers.
Scream all you want, but the facts go against you. the only Hardcore PVP game that is still going strong is EVE, and one has to wonder if the fact you lose items is even the main selling point of EVE.
What a moronic post. It sounds to me like you are just angry that this game doesnt cater for your carebear playing style (unlike the other 30 other EQ clones out there). Deal with it.
There are still heaps of people following the game (just look at how active their official forums are!) even though the game has been delayed time and time again! Im sure there are heaps of people like myself who arent really following the game anymore, that is until the beta is announced.
If you really believe the game would be more popular if it was just another EQ clone that brings nothing new to the MMORG scene - but on a smaller budget you really are delusional. See above posts.
Again, I reiterate there were and still are lots of people playing Darktide, UO (free shards, pre trammel), Tibia, Shadowbane, Eve etc There are also a lot of people bored with WOW's pointless PVP who will be looking for something more. In addition to this look at the AOC and Vanguard PVP forums, there is post after post from people requesting a hardcore server that offers FFA and looting.
There is a market for a new hardcore MMORPG, and the market is indeed big enough for Darkfall to be very successful. Obviously if you hang out in the Hello Kitty Online forums you likely wouldnt see this market, but it is there whether YOU see it or not.
Now off you run, back to WOW.
Chow.
Here we have a perfect example of a person that live up to the so called "Hardcore Kiddy" stereotype. Everybody that does not agree with his way is a "carebear", and everyone that doesn't support full item looting is a WoW player.
How you use those games as examples is laughable. Darktide is close to empty. Last report I heard from Zaxtor99 was that he was amazed a player base of 200+ was online, Shadowbane, yes, we all know what a big success that game was [/sarcasm] Tibia is popular for the same reason Runescape is popular, its free and has low system requirements. not to mention that the PVP is actually restricted, and you get a nice ban after 12 pk's, and, ofcourse, the server that actually promotes hardcore pvp is the least played of all Tibia servers. you say go look at the forums. count all those posts, you probably won't even find 1000 posts that support that PVP.
Also, the darkfall forums aren't THAT active. if your pointing out to the registered users, mind you the game has been in development since forever, and its forums have been up ever since.
At least I base this on facts, your merely assuming there is a market for it, but the facts go against that.
Its also funny how you try to swap away my comment where I stated that an EQ clone would be more successfull then FFA Hardcore pvp. especialy since World of Warcraft, who brought NOTHING new to the genre and is a polished Everquest clone, holds over 7,5 million players and holds over half of the mmorpg subscriber market. again, facts are facts.
the fact that your flaming me for actually pointing out the facts is amusing, but I suggest you drop that. if don't like it somebody says something negative about your game (which wasn't even about the game directly), then don't come to a forum where people share opinions.
Meh, Shadowbane failed cause it had a million bugs at release, the servers couldn't handle all the people it was so packed initially.
WoW grabbed customers with the Warcraft name, it continued to succeed due to lack of bugs and the "friendly to all gamer types" atmosphere. It was alos the first MMORPG for a LOT of people, again, due to the brand name. Most veteran PvPers started leaving, but many of come back due to simple lack of options.
I do agree games like WoW, where multiple gaming styles are targeted, are and will be more successful than games like Darkfall. However, Darkfall is the only game aside from possibly AoC with the the potential to monopolize the heavy PvP crowd. Even if that is the only crowd, it's significant amount.
So there's a basic arguement for your basic arguement, though next time let's just go back a few pages and copy/paste our comments, heh.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
I won't quote, or else I will get more quotion complains
but this post is directed at Awakened's post
Shadowbane indeed had a lot of bugs, but a lot of them got fixed, and it now has a reasonable amount of bugs. yet even now, with the game fully free, the amount of players are minimum.
I'm sure the Warcraft name pulled a lot of players, but thats not the full reason it became a success. above all, its also an excellent game. if it was only based on name recognition, then FFXI and SWG would be up there right with WoW. but thats not really the point I'm trying to make, because quality game or not, its still an Everquest clone that holds millions of players, where "Hardcore" pvp MMO's are in the vast minority.
I know Darkfall is trying to gather the hardcore pvp market, which is not the point I was trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is the size of that market, which is, according to MMORPG's, very small. as I said, hardcore pvp servers are the least played servers, and even UO changed its pvp ways.
I'm not argueing that the PvP market is much smaller than the "typical" player market, I'm only argueing that it's large enough to support a MMORPG. Shadowbane's playerbase is still small, but let's face it, it STILL has a ton of bugs, it's not noob friendly at all (it's biggest killer IMO), and it's just plain old now.
You like asian games yeah? I think the fact that L2 is still up and running is a good example of how PvP is still attactive to a lot of people.
I think you and I agree for the most part on these issues, but I personally feel the PvP market is larger than people give it credit for - due largely in part to the fact I personally know roughly 100 or so players that are currently not playing anything until another good PvP game is released.
What greater tribute to free will than the power to question the highest of authority? What greater display of loyalty than blind faith? What greater gift than free will? What greater love than loyalty?
It's amazing how many rationalizations people come up with to account for WoW's unprecedented success. Yes, WoW had the WC and Blizzard names, which helped a lot. But that doesn't sustain a game for 2 years, and neither does the lack of bugs. WoW is a very well made, fun game for most people, and significantly less fun for the hardcore gamer crowd. It wasn't aimed at the latter audience. That doesn't make it a bad game ... it's a great game aimed at a more generalist, casual, mass market audience.
If you read the smart stuff coming from dev mouths about this, you'll see it there as well. Read what the Vanguard folks (who are unabashedly designing a game for the hardcore crowd, which they refer to as "core MMO players") have said about the market for their game as compared with some other existing games. They've said it's a question of target audience and WoW and EQ2 were aimed at a broader audience as the target, while accepting "core" gamers ... whereas Vanguard is aimed at "core gamers" while accepting people from the broader market.
Vanguard will never be as successful commercially as WoW because of this. Does that mean it will fail? Of course not. EVE is a success with ~170k accounts. But what some of us are saying is that because there is this big disparity in market size, you are always going to have far fewer games being produced that cater to the smaller market. There will always be more WoWs with more subs than there will be EVE's (and EVE accounts). It's just a difference in the size of the market.
Edit: I thought I should mention that I've seen looting discussed among fans and all, I just haven't seen it mentioned by a dev of staffer that it was an actual feature.
Crap, I went to find it so I can send you a link but either a) The website changed and I cannot find it b) I was thinking about a different game and that is why the website is different. Sorry for not being able to support my statement.
When Darkfall comes out I will buy it and give it a go, and here is why:
"These guys are hardcore guild-oriented PVPers...consequently, the MMO they're developing is designed for players like them. The difference between playing other mass-market MMOs and Darkfall will be like having a 'McDonald's meal vs the special burger' explains Grovdal."
"For example, you will be able to PVP anywhere on the map. As I've seen in other MMOs, this concept can be a scary one for those who get frustrated when "ganked" or attacked unexpectedly. To add to your fears, when you die your body can be completely looted by your opponent."
"With a very sophisticated notoriety system. Darkfall might just generate an elf quest rewarding the person who kills the most notorious elf killer....there would be some sort of a bounty system in place to get back at offenders."
"You won't need to worry about portal or zone camping since there is no zoning between areas in Darkfall."
"There are also no levels in this game."
"And unlike certain MMOs where you can find platemail on a rat, Darkfall will have none of that. What you see is what you get. On that same note, if you fight an orc that's using an axe but then switches to a club, when he dies you will be able to loot both the axe and club off of his body, as well as his armor and the contents of his entire inventory."
"Helland explained that the AI in the game would be far more advanced than what gamers are used to seeing in other MMOs. 'The AI mimicks players as much as possible,' he said, 'like Quake bots.' The AI is also smart enough to notice when people are camping spawns. In-game events can be triggered to stir things up, encouraging parties to continue exploration rather than stay in one spot."
"Darkfall features naval combat in a fantasy MMO."
"As for how the combat looks, you can see physical bleeding and armor decay as you beat someone down. "We do have decapitation and skull crushing in this game," says Oren smiling."
"Although the game draws much inspiration from Ultima Online and Shadowbane, unlike both of those MMOs, they don't plan on releasing it until they are content that it's a finished product.They are making the game that they have always wanted to play and they will not compromise. They know they're catering to a niche market and they're content doing so. And if they don't get a publisher, they are prepared to self-publish to see this vision become a reality."
Here we have a perfect example of a person that live up to the so called "Hardcore Kiddy" stereotype. Everybody that does not agree with his way is a "carebear", and everyone that doesn't support full item looting is a WoW player.
How you use those games as examples is laughable. Darktide is close to empty. Last report I heard from Zaxtor99 was that he was amazed a player base of 200+ was online, Shadowbane, yes, we all know what a big success that game was [/sarcasm] Tibia is popular for the same reason Runescape is popular, its free and has low system requirements. not to mention that the PVP is actually restricted, and you get a nice ban after 12 pk's, and, ofcourse, the server that actually promotes hardcore pvp is the least played of all Tibia servers. you say go look at the forums. count all those posts, you probably won't even find 1000 posts that support that PVP.
Also, the darkfall forums aren't THAT active. if your pointing out to the registered users, mind you the game has been in development since forever, and its forums have been up ever since.
At least I base this on facts, your merely assuming there is a market for it, but the facts go against that.
Its also funny how you try to swap away my comment where I stated that an EQ clone would be more successfull then FFA Hardcore pvp. especialy since World of Warcraft, who brought NOTHING new to the genre and is a polished Everquest clone, holds over 7,5 million players and holds over half of the mmorpg subscriber market. again, facts are facts.
the fact that your flaming me for actually pointing out the facts is amusing, but I suggest you drop that. if don't like it somebody says something negative about your game (which wasn't even about the game directly), then don't come to a forum where people share opinions & FACTS.
Don't go into discussion with me unless you bring some facts to back up your arguement. so far you have picked 2 games that seem to be on the edge of dying (AC and Shadowbane), a game that is partly against hardcore pvp, and has the lowest amount of players on the hardcore pvp server, and a game where it is questionable if the item looting is even the main selling point of the game.
Again, you are just regurgitating that same crap over and over. Your so called facts just merely show that PVE / carebear servers are more popular. No one is arguing against that fact and you seem to be the only one who fails to understand this.
If there were no market for the hardcore crowd these hardcore servers wouldnt exist. The fact is where they do exist they are populated and even more so when the game was fresh / modern. There have being no games recently that have catered for this hardcore crowd and there is a business opportunity right there.
And unless you can bring something of relevance to this discussion Im going to leave you to it.
QUOTED FOR TRUTH
if they have what they promise to have there is ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER GAME THAT COMPARES, at least a PVP game (AOC WAR any of them, say they have an awesome feature and DF will have it and more)
GAMELOADING: it is very possible that this game will not have massive numbers (like games in WOW's era). for 35.000 registered people on the forums without even a beta date there are much much more that are calling it vaporware but would gladly play it if it went into beta and is in decent shape. I would not be astonished if DF releases in good shape and most features in that it will have around 100-150k subscribers.
Thats not alot i know, but its enough to keep the game up there and give the small dev team in Greece a nice chunk of change for their efforts for so many years, so it's worth it to them and definetly worth it for us, the old gamers tired of the same old........
OK so we can all agree that there is a subset of the MMORPG population that does support FFA full looting. The question now is, "Is this population large enough to support a game?" Lets look at some other games:
UO - we can safely say no. They had to implement less FFA to stay afloat.
Shadowbane - No. Now gone free and still low pops
Eve - hmm maybe. What is the draw? pvp? sandbox? space? some combination of the above? Are the people that play playing it because of the pvp or some other option?
There could be but it will be kinda close. Personally I don't believe that there is a big enough market. Thats certainly not why I am looking at Darkfall, I am interested in some of the other features (I really hope that have flight at some time). FFA does not really appeal to me most of the time, but the gameplay looks more free and so I will probably try it. We need to get some hard numbers. What we need is some enterprising person to have a massive survey filled and published by all the major gaming companies:
Venge Sunsoar
^ unfortunatly they decided to leave flight out of the game
i believe in the early stages there were plans for flying mounts, but that just imbalances things in the PVP and game overall. Why have walls in your guild's city when you can fly over them? why have mounts when you can fly? why have pirate ships when you can just fly?
it's logical and thats another reason i hope for the best for the developers: they are logical with the way they explain their reasoning, from chainmail on the rat issue to housing destruction to flying.
Here we have a perfect example of a person that live up to the so called "Hardcore Kiddy" stereotype. Everybody that does not agree with his way is a "carebear", and everyone that doesn't support full item looting is a WoW player.
How you use those games as examples is laughable. Darktide is close to empty. Last report I heard from Zaxtor99 was that he was amazed a player base of 200+ was online, Shadowbane, yes, we all know what a big success that game was [/sarcasm] Tibia is popular for the same reason Runescape is popular, its free and has low system requirements. not to mention that the PVP is actually restricted, and you get a nice ban after 12 pk's, and, ofcourse, the server that actually promotes hardcore pvp is the least played of all Tibia servers. you say go look at the forums. count all those posts, you probably won't even find 1000 posts that support that PVP.
Also, the darkfall forums aren't THAT active. if your pointing out to the registered users, mind you the game has been in development since forever, and its forums have been up ever since.
At least I base this on facts, your merely assuming there is a market for it, but the facts go against that.
Its also funny how you try to swap away my comment where I stated that an EQ clone would be more successfull then FFA Hardcore pvp. especialy since World of Warcraft, who brought NOTHING new to the genre and is a polished Everquest clone, holds over 7,5 million players and holds over half of the mmorpg subscriber market. again, facts are facts.
the fact that your flaming me for actually pointing out the facts is amusing, but I suggest you drop that. if don't like it somebody says something negative about your game (which wasn't even about the game directly), then don't come to a forum where people share opinions & FACTS.
Don't go into discussion with me unless you bring some facts to back up your arguement. so far you have picked 2 games that seem to be on the edge of dying (AC and Shadowbane), a game that is partly against hardcore pvp, and has the lowest amount of players on the hardcore pvp server, and a game where it is questionable if the item looting is even the main selling point of the game.
Again, you are just regurgitating that same crap over and over. Your so called facts just merely show that PVE / carebear servers are more popular. No one is arguing against that fact and you seem to be the only one who fails to understand this.
If there were no market for the hardcore crowd these hardcore servers wouldnt exist. The fact is where they do exist they are populated and even more so when the game was fresh / modern. There have being no games recently that have catered for this hardcore crowd and there is a business opportunity right there.
And unless you can bring something of relevance to this discussion Im going to leave you to it.
And this is why no one takes your post seriously. You can't go one post without using the word "carebear". Makes your post sound as retarded as the southern white people that think all black people are lazy. When they know maybe all of about zero black people. No one here has even tried to argue that there is no market for FFA PvP. People here are arguing that it's not a lucrative market, hence why you don't see publisher, and developers alike. Trying to create FFA PvP games.
Honestly at this point. I seriously doubt Darkfall will live up to 1/4th of the features they claim to be implimenting. That's if it actually ever makes it out the door.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Honestly at this point. I seriously doubt Darkfall will live up to 1/4th of the features they claim to be implimenting. That's if it actually ever makes it out the door.
You know what, the term carebear pretty much means people who dont enjoy player vs player or death penalties. I dont mean it in a derogatory term, but it is widely used and helps convey the point I am making. If it offends you, I am terribly terribly sorry.
And you do see publishers and developers trying to make FFA PVP games, well, we do know.
And how is there bigger chance of succes if you make another PvE/concensual PvP game? You think it would be easy to compete with WoW, VG, WAR, Conan etc.? Think again. Darkfall definetly fills a large hole in the MMORPG market. If they improve their PR (and finish their game) they will do just fine.
so peeps are suckers if something is free
try getting a 10 dollar monthly fee on tibia the game world would be empty in a month
If a open pvp game gets regulated to the point you can't call it a reall open pvp game anymore sure it may work. But basic open pvp withouth any way to prevent or discouragement of griefing won't work.
Basically with EvE you have area where you can and ereas where you can't really PvP(yeah you can but conseqeunces are pretty drastic). So basically if you call this a open PvP game you can call DAoC an open PvP game. He you can hit someone in the enemies zone just hard to get passed the freaking gate.
Well, it's a good thing EVE and UO didn't last huh? Both have FFA PVP and Item Loss.
I don't consider EvE to be an open PvP game with the whole concorde and reputation construction. Actaully that just makes my point. Whithouth a lot of regulating mechanismes open pvp just doesn't work.
As for UO you might be right about that, one of the few games thats open pvp and has a fee on it to keep the kiddies away. It must be like open pvp fan fest heaven or something they have to go somewhere
**wipes forhead**
*Whew*
I'm glad nobody plays those games anymore. What were they thinking? Ppl musta got bored after 8yrs of UO.
All those 200,000(or so) accounts on each game are just trials.
Ppl's ignorance is amazing. Go back and play your Paladin WoW Carebear.
No in UO you do not lose your loot. To keep their customer base from the mass exodus they were experiencing early in the game UO developed another zone where looting bodies was not permitted. Within a month every player was in the new "no looting" zone and wouldnt leave. To get people to actually travel to the "body looting" zone they had to implement a system called insurance, in addition to other incentives like double loot, gold, minerals, ...... Which essentially allows the player to keep all of thier best items from being looted on death. So now even in the "body looting" zone (which is still unpopular compared to the "no looting" zone) a person never loses anything valuable.
Dont know about Eve but UO cannot be counted in the lose your loot on death MMO.
And eve has insurance too.
Another good point made
another proof that open pvp concept just doesn't work
in uo they created a zone where the looting was possible and 90% of the peeps never ever left it anymore how suprising
It's not the main focus in EVE, but it is a pretty big focus. Looting players is much better than looting mobs.
Plus, Darkfall and EVE will be mainly focused on the same thing: Community and Warfare.
In Darkfall, (so the devs say) you will be able to build cities from scratch and hire NPC guards and vendors to run your city. Cities will help control territory and that territory is defended for the materials it contains for crafting. The world is supposed to be very expansive, giving alot of movement freedom w/o stepping on someone elses toes.
Shadowbane again
Shadowbane had the same story you can actaully play that game for free now, most bugs are gone it's a pretty enjoyable game if your into open PvP
I actaully think EvE proves that withouth a lot of regulating factors on the PvPing open pvp doesn't work. People can be assholes in game killing the fun of another person so there must be regulating factors to make it work. EvE succes is largely because the revised an succesfull system to regulate pvp but because of this you can't really call it open pvp anymore
That is not factual at all. UO was doing very well without a carebear land. UO steadilty grew to 185,000 subscribers over a span of two and a half years while it was completely open PvP and full loot - no consensual PvP whatsoever.
Six months after the consensual only Trammel was piggybacked on to the open PvP full loot world, the game had only grown by 15,000 more subscriptions. 15k is very little next to 185k.
The highest subscriptions since the consensual only Trammel was added were only 65,000 more and it was a very short lived peak surrounding the Age of Shadows release. For most of the time since the consensual Trammel was introduced, the game has not grown.
Since Trammel was added to the open PvP full loot game, UO has actually lost 55,000 subscribers overall and now sits around 130,000. The game stopped growing and is dying now. Many say the consensual only game world piggyback onto the open PvP full loot game, killed the "game."
Here we have a perfect example of a person that live up to the so called "Hardcore Kiddy" stereotype. Everybody that does not agree with his way is a "carebear", and everyone that doesn't support full item looting is a WoW player.
How you use those games as examples is laughable. Darktide is close to empty. Last report I heard from Zaxtor99 was that he was amazed a player base of 200+ was online, Shadowbane, yes, we all know what a big success that game was [/sarcasm] Tibia is popular for the same reason Runescape is popular, its free and has low system requirements. not to mention that the PVP is actually restricted, and you get a nice ban after 12 pk's, and, ofcourse, the server that actually promotes hardcore pvp is the least played of all Tibia servers. you say go look at the forums. count all those posts, you probably won't even find 1000 posts that support that PVP.
Also, the darkfall forums aren't THAT active. if your pointing out to the registered users, mind you the game has been in development since forever, and its forums have been up ever since.
At least I base this on facts, your merely assuming there is a market for it, but the facts go against that.
Its also funny how you try to swap away my comment where I stated that an EQ clone would be more successfull then FFA Hardcore pvp. especialy since World of Warcraft, who brought NOTHING new to the genre and is a polished Everquest clone, holds over 7,5 million players and holds over half of the mmorpg subscriber market. again, facts are facts.
the fact that your flaming me for actually pointing out the facts is amusing, but I suggest you drop that. if don't like it somebody says something negative about your game (which wasn't even about the game directly), then don't come to a forum where people share opinions & FACTS.
Don't go into discussion with me unless you bring some facts to back up your arguement. so far you have picked 2 games that seem to be on the edge of dying (AC and Shadowbane), a game that is partly against hardcore pvp, and has the lowest amount of players on the hardcore pvp server, and a game where it is questionable if the item looting is even the main selling point of the game.
Again, you are just regurgitating that same crap over and over. Your so called facts just merely show that PVE / carebear servers are more popular. No one is arguing against that fact and you seem to be the only one who fails to understand this.
If there were no market for the hardcore crowd these hardcore servers wouldnt exist. The fact is where they do exist they are populated and even more so when the game was fresh / modern. There have being no games recently that have catered for this hardcore crowd and there is a business opportunity right there.
The fact that for most games have at least one "hardcore" server where there's open PvP is the reason why developing a independent ffa open pvp game is not commercial viable. The whole hardcore open pvp gamming community is already segmented over numerrous games that are grapihically appealing. The only reall change darkfall is going to bring is looting. I suriously doubt if the whole segmented hardcore ffa open pvp community is going over to darkfall
It's not just a qeustion if there's enough player base to support an ffs open pvp game. The reall qeustion is if you can make it commercial viable to make suchs a good ffa open pvp game to attrackt enough of that market. The answer is NO. This is not because lack of people but mainly because of the attitude of the people that want open pvp in general. Wanting looting and open PvP is just saying you want a game where you can irretate people and there no obstakels doing this, don't say this isn't treu because if it wheren't treu you would go for an consentual pvp game where there are PvP erea's like WoW or DAoC etc.
You would have your PvP and a erea where the people who like to PvP come together. All other arguments are just centered around the frustration of certain people that the can't grief people in game when they want too.
And unless you can bring something of relevance to this discussion Im going to leave you to it.
That is not factual at all. UO was doing very well without a carebear land. UO steadilty grew to 185,000 subscribers over a span of two and a half years while it was completely open PvP and full loot - no consensual PvP whatsoever.
Six months after the consensual only Trammel was piggybacked on to the open PvP full loot world, the game had only grown by 15,000 more subscriptions. 15k is very little next to 185k.
The highest subscriptions since the consensual only Trammel was added were only 65,000 more and it was a very short lived peak surrounding the Age of Shadows release. For most of the time since the consensual Trammel was introduced, the game has not grown.
Since Trammel was added to the open PvP full loot game, UO has actually lost 55,000 subscribers overall and now sits around 130,000. The game stopped growing and is dying now. Many say the consensual only game world piggyback onto the open PvP full loot game, killed the "game."
UO only did well with open pvp till the point there where actaully games out there that offert a surious competition