Originally posted by PlanoMM youre exactly right. wanting to believe in something without proof, doesnt make it so. remind you of anything? btw, werent you the one just complaining about me butting into your convo with someone else? lol, anyway, i didnt actually expect any of you to take me seriously. you just going to have to find your own answers.
I didn't mind you "butting" in one bit. Its just that you assumed an earlier statement of mine reffered to what I thought of your arguments in this thread. No, you and Draenor have not used that cliche argument, and to be honest, its quite refreshing.
Originally posted by PlanoMM
Originally posted by modjoe86Do you even know what Paschal's Wager is? I have absolutely no problem with theists, I just have problems with theists who use Paschal's Wager. To believe in a higher power "just in case" is pitiful.
So no, I don't think I'll need to back out of this one. I think my condescending attitude towards wishy-washy theists is justified.
actually, im not even the one that used the "Paschal's Wager" in the first place. and me faith in God isnt a "just in case" case. but even if it were, if im right, then atheists are in a bad way. if im wrong, then no one is in a bad way. so why the insults? and your condescending attitude towards anyone is completely unfounded, because youre nobody special. you dont rule anything. all it does is prove that you believe yourself better than others, which is what is "pitiful".
I do believe he's making a mistake in judgement here. He is assuming at this point that the only, or at least the primary reason you believe as you do is so that you have all the bases covered. That if you thought that there was no chance of going to hell, you'd walk away without a backwards glance.
I will agree with him on one point, that kind of belief is low. Although, I feel that you and Draenor have more than sufficiently shown the accusations made here false.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Originally posted by PlanoMM youre exactly right. wanting to believe in something without proof, doesnt make it so. remind you of anything? btw, werent you the one just complaining about me butting into your convo with someone else? lol, anyway, i didnt actually expect any of you to take me seriously. you just going to have to find your own answers.
I didn't mind you "butting" in one bit. Its just that you assumed an earlier statement of mine reffered to what I thought of your arguments in this thread. No, you and Draenor have not used that cliche argument, and to be honest, its quite refreshing.
Originally posted by PlanoMM
Originally posted by modjoe86Do you even know what Paschal's Wager is? I have absolutely no problem with theists, I just have problems with theists who use Paschal's Wager. To believe in a higher power "just in case" is pitiful.
So no, I don't think I'll need to back out of this one. I think my condescending attitude towards wishy-washy theists is justified.
actually, im not even the one that used the "Paschal's Wager" in the first place. and me faith in God isnt a "just in case" case. but even if it were, if im right, then atheists are in a bad way. if im wrong, then no one is in a bad way. so why the insults? and your condescending attitude towards anyone is completely unfounded, because youre nobody special. you dont rule anything. all it does is prove that you believe yourself better than others, which is what is "pitiful".
I do believe he's making a mistake in judgement here. He is assuming at this point that the only, or at least the primary reason you believe as you do is so that you have all the bases covered. That if you thought that there was no chance of going to hell, you'd walk away without a backwards glance.
I will agree with him on one point, that kind of belief is low. Although, I feel that you and Draenor have more than sufficiently shown the accusations made here false.
thank you on both accounts. and yes, if that were me only reason for believing, then i might as well walk away. cause guess what, God knows, either way.
Originally posted by Draenor Mount Everest is flat, and then some clams die on it, and then shifts around due to plate techtonics to the point that it becomes the highest mountain in the world, and those fossilized clams remain intact after hundreds of millions of years of geological shifts. Am I the only one that finds this absurd? Absurd how? I am not even going to dignify this with a proper answer...if you can't see why the explanation that evolution provides is utterly rediculous, then you have a lot of searching to do for yourself.
Oh and it's not the only evidence for a global flood...the ice age is evidence in and of itself. Job lived during the Ice Age...and such a time would have easily been brought about by the events of a global flood, and the way that God ended the flood(pulling mountains upwards, hmm, explanation for the Everest clams?) There have been a few huge floods. We have proof of those in the geologic record. But none around the time of Noah.
Job lived during the Ice Age? Can I ask where in the Bible it says this? Only things I can see is it talks about snow and ice sometimes. Well heck then every january here in my home state we have an Ice Age. There are continual references to how cold it is in the book of Job. Obviously it doesn't say in the book of Job "Job lived in the ice-age!" Because they didn't call it that back then. But it's very odd that one book would have numerous references to the temperature, and that book would be following the great flood...you like to talk about how evolutionists draw conclusions based on observation and conjecture, well that's what I'm doing here...and that's what most Biblical scholars and informed creationists do with Job as well...this isn't some theory that I pulled out of my ass. Curiously, the book of Job also makes reference to both a "behemoth" and a "leviathan" Upon reading the descriptions, you'll be forced to wonder just what exactly these animals were. Both come down to faith, but what does your faith have to offer you? Continual conjecture and changing conclusions every couple of years. Our evidence might change, but it still finds a way to fit nicely with 6,000 years...and our conclusion never changes. My faith doesn't change, yours does...why should I accept your faith when I already have one of my own? Why should I accept a faith that my life is a meaningless chance occurance and that the Bible is based on a lie?
I dont believe the Bible is a lie. I trust in both science and the Bible. Yah some of the Bible is not true but it does what it is supposed to do. Sure science has holes but it does what its supposed too. So some of the Bible isn't true, but it's supposed to be God's word...how is this not the same thing as a lie again? So some of it is true, and some of it isn't...and you feel like you can pick and choose which to believe.
I'll take my chances with God, thanks...If I'm wrong, I lose nothing, if I'm right, I gain everything. So your picking that path only because it covers all your bases. Yah I'm sure God will love that. This is nothing more than a cheap jab from you. You know nothing about why I have chosen the faith that I have, and you seem intent on ignoring WHY i believe what I do. Tell me, would God love that you take his word and pick and choose what to believe from it? Don't pull that card with me. If the idea that my faith was just something to fall back on was actually a thought that I had, then I would be struggling with my faith indeed. I said this as food for thought, nothing more...but I think that you should examine your own beliefs before you go attacking mine, in either case.
Kai
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by Nierro Am I going to burn alive and get tortured every day for not doing everything some invisible/deaf/mute man in space wants me to? ohnoes.
not burnt alive, because you'll be dead, not every day, because eternity has no days, and not a invisible/deaf/mute man, because God sees all things, and not in space, because God doesn't reside in space....unless you believe in Mormonism, in which case I think that there might be something about that in their beliefs, but I'm not sure. All I know for sure about their faith as it pertains to space is that they believe that the most devout followers of Joseph Smith will recieve their own planet to populate in their afterlife...I'm not here to judge that belief, but I find it pretty interesting.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by Draenor So some of the Bible isn't true, but it's supposed to be God's word...how is this not the same thing as a lie again? So some of it is true, and some of it isn't...and you feel like you can pick and choose which to believe.
No, it is the word of "god" watered down by the lies of man.
Originally posted by Draenor So some of the Bible isn't true, but it's supposed to be God's word...how is this not the same thing as a lie again? So some of it is true, and some of it isn't...and you feel like you can pick and choose which to believe.
No, it is the word of "god" watered down by the lies of man.
Right, but I don't believe that fallable men have ever changed the language of genesis, to change the meaning from 6 days, to several hundred million. Anyway, origional texts and translations of the Bible still exist, if it had gotten so bad that the origional message was lost, then there would be a problem.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
I will agree with him on one point, that kind of belief is low. Although, I feel that you and Draenor have more than sufficiently shown the accusations made here false.
Indeed, if you couldn't tell by now that Plano and I don't consider our faith to be some sort of fall back mechanism, then you havn't been reading very much of these posts. Obviously that sort of faith is shallow, but accusing either of us of it is quite drastic, and ignorant.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by Draenor Originally posted by Xexima Originally posted by Draenor So some of the Bible isn't true, but it's supposed to be God's word...how is this not the same thing as a lie again? So some of it is true, and some of it isn't...and you feel like you can pick and choose which to believe.
No, it is the word of "god" watered down by the lies of man. Right, but I don't believe that fallable men have ever changed the language of genesis, to change the meaning from 6 days, to several hundred million. Anyway, origional texts and translations of the Bible still exist, if it had gotten so bad that the origional message was lost, then there would be a problem. But it destroys the ability to interpret the bible literally. How do you know that a day in god's time is not billions of years in our time (this is not asking for you to post another ansersingenisis.com thing)? 40 days didn't mean 40 days in the bible, it meant a reasonable amount of time, not something specific. Same thing with 40 years, the writers of the bible didn't know exactly how long it had been so they used the number 40 to represent a long period of time. The same for the number seven. Also, when they talk about people being 800+ years old, they didn't know about the 365 day revolution around the sun, so their years were different.
Either way, with the fallacy of man, you cannot interpret something that is supposed to be the word of god literally.
Originally posted by Draenor Originally posted by kaibigan34 Originally posted by Draenor Mount Everest is flat, and then some clams die on it, and then shifts around due to plate techtonics to the point that it becomes the highest mountain in the world, and those fossilized clams remain intact after hundreds of millions of years of geological shifts. Am I the only one that finds this absurd? Absurd how? I am not even going to dignify this with a proper answer...if you can't see why the explanation that evolution provides is utterly rediculous, then you have a lot of searching to do for yourself.I ask a serious question and this is the answer I get? The last time I heard that answer was when I was watching a political speech and a certain high ranking politician said that samething when he was asked why there hasnt been any weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq. Oh and it's not the only evidence for a global flood...the ice age is evidence in and of itself. Job lived during the Ice Age...and such a time would have easily been brought about by the events of a global flood, and the way that God ended the flood(pulling mountains upwards, hmm, explanation for the Everest clams?) There have been a few huge floods. We have proof of those in the geologic record. But none around the time of Noah. Job lived during the Ice Age? Can I ask where in the Bible it says this? Only things I can see is it talks about snow and ice sometimes. Well heck then every january here in my home state we have an Ice Age. There are continual references to how cold it is in the book of Job. Obviously it doesn't say in the book of Job "Job lived in the ice-age!" Because they didn't call it that back then. But it's very odd that one book would have numerous references to the temperature, and that book would be following the great flood...you like to talk about how evolutionists draw conclusions based on observation and conjecture, well that's what I'm doing here...and that's what most Biblical scholars and informed creationists do with Job as well...this isn't some theory that I pulled out of my ass. Curiously, the book of Job also makes reference to both a "behemoth" and a "leviathan" Upon reading the descriptions, you'll be forced to wonder just what exactly these animals were.I have already said what the behemoth and leviathan were. Behemoth was a brachiasaur and the leviathan was a karnosuar. But thanks for that answer. You have basically said you have no true idea. Your just guessing. But seriously that is cool. Glad you finally said something like that really. Now you know where 90% of everyone's beliefs come from. Maybe next time you wont be so quick so shoot someone else's down just because it differs from your own.And before you retaliate. Yes I am just as guilty of that as you. Both come down to faith, but what does your faith have to offer you? Continual conjecture and changing conclusions every couple of years. Our evidence might change, but it still finds a way to fit nicely with 6,000 years...and our conclusion never changes. My faith doesn't change, yours does...why should I accept your faith when I already have one of my own? Why should I accept a faith that my life is a meaningless chance occurance and that the Bible is based on a lie? I dont believe the Bible is a lie. I trust in both science and the Bible. Yah some of the Bible is not true but it does what it is supposed to do. Sure science has holes but it does what its supposed too. So some of the Bible isn't true, but it's supposed to be God's word...how is this not the same thing as a lie again? So some of it is true, and some of it isn't...and you feel like you can pick and choose which to believe.Some of it is a story. Some of it is facts. Some of it is stories based on facts. The Bible is supposed to teach and guide. It does that quite well. Yes I do not believe somethings happened. But I learned from them. That is what your supposed to do. Learn from them. And that is why I think they are there.I mean if you consider the monumental task it took to write the Bible. This wasnt just some novel. Its alot of work. And some of it was written thousands of years after an event took place or was supposed to take place. Wow. It would be akin to mapping the entire ocean floor with just an underwater writing board and a marker. I'll take my chances with God, thanks...If I'm wrong, I lose nothing, if I'm right, I gain everything. So your picking that path only because it covers all your bases. Yah I'm sure God will love that. This is nothing more than a cheap jab from you. You know nothing about why I have chosen the faith that I have, and you seem intent on ignoring WHY i believe what I do. Tell me, would God love that you take his word and pick and choose what to believe from it? Don't pull that card with me. If the idea that my faith was just something to fall back on was actually a thought that I had, then I would be struggling with my faith indeed. I said this as food for thought, nothing more...but I think that you should examine your own beliefs before you go attacking mine, in either case.I wasnt attacking your beliefs. Your the one who said "If I'm wrong, I lose nothing, if I'm right, I gain everything." not me. If you had more to say about it then you should have said it. This is a forum. Not a mind reading class. Because in all honesty that one line sounds alike your just taking the path of least resistence. As for me. My path is one of discovery. I am constantly learning new things. That is what I feel I was put here to do.
actually the Hebrew day was from the evening of one day to the evening of the next. and the Bible is specific about the fact that the waters were on the Earth for about 150 days. thats not conjecture, thats exactly what the Bible says. the number 7? where do you see that as an example? and the 40 year thing, Moses was(according to scripture) 40 years old when he left Egypt, 80 years old when he returned and led the people out and 120 when he died. that doesnt sound like saying a "good amount of time passed" to me. that sounds like an exact accounting of a mans age.
Originally posted by Draenor Mount Everest is flat, and then some clams die on it, and then shifts around due to plate techtonics to the point that it becomes the highest mountain in the world, and those fossilized clams remain intact after hundreds of millions of years of geological shifts. Am I the only one that finds this absurd? Absurd how? I am not even going to dignify this with a proper answer...if you can't see why the explanation that evolution provides is utterly rediculous, then you have a lot of searching to do for yourself. I ask a serious question and this is the answer I get? The last time I heard that answer was when I was watching a political speech and a certain high ranking politician said that samething when he was asked why there hasnt been any weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq. I honestly don't see how anyone can believe the definition that evolution gives for Everest...but if that's what you choose to believe, then I guess I'm not going to change your mind, I just find it absolutely preposterous that they give such a humorous explanation for it.
Oh and it's not the only evidence for a global flood...the ice age is evidence in and of itself. Job lived during the Ice Age...and such a time would have easily been brought about by the events of a global flood, and the way that God ended the flood(pulling mountains upwards, hmm, explanation for the Everest clams?) There have been a few huge floods. We have proof of those in the geologic record. But none around the time of Noah.
Job lived during the Ice Age? Can I ask where in the Bible it says this? Only things I can see is it talks about snow and ice sometimes. Well heck then every january here in my home state we have an Ice Age. There are continual references to how cold it is in the book of Job. Obviously it doesn't say in the book of Job "Job lived in the ice-age!" Because they didn't call it that back then. But it's very odd that one book would have numerous references to the temperature, and that book would be following the great flood...you like to talk about how evolutionists draw conclusions based on observation and conjecture, well that's what I'm doing here...and that's what most Biblical scholars and informed creationists do with Job as well...this isn't some theory that I pulled out of my ass. Curiously, the book of Job also makes reference to both a "behemoth" and a "leviathan" Upon reading the descriptions, you'll be forced to wonder just what exactly these animals were. I have already said what the behemoth and leviathan were. Behemoth was a brachiasaur and the leviathan was a karnosuar. k?
But thanks for that answer. You have basically said you have no true idea. Your just guessing. But seriously that is cool. Glad you finally said something like that really. Now you know where 90% of everyone's beliefs come from. Maybe next time you wont be so quick so shoot someone else's down just because it differs from your own. I basically said that I have no true idea? I gave you a reason why, and you simply reject it by saying that I actually have no idea? wow. And before you go talking about my shooting down people's ideas, know that I used to be an evolutionist, and thought that stories such as the great flood were an absolute joke. And before you retaliate. Yes I am just as guilty of that as you.
Both come down to faith, but what does your faith have to offer you? Continual conjecture and changing conclusions every couple of years. Our evidence might change, but it still finds a way to fit nicely with 6,000 years...and our conclusion never changes. My faith doesn't change, yours does...why should I accept your faith when I already have one of my own? Why should I accept a faith that my life is a meaningless chance occurance and that the Bible is based on a lie?
I dont believe the Bible is a lie. I trust in both science and the Bible. Yah some of the Bible is not true but it does what it is supposed to do. Sure science has holes but it does what its supposed too. So some of the Bible isn't true, but it's supposed to be God's word...how is this not the same thing as a lie again? So some of it is true, and some of it isn't...and you feel like you can pick and choose which to believe. Some of it is a story. Some of it is facts. Some of it is stories based on facts. The Bible is supposed to teach and guide. It does that quite well. Yes I do not believe somethings happened. But I learned from them. That is what your supposed to do. Learn from them. And that is why I think they are there. I think you should talk to some Biblical scholars about how the Bible should be interpreted, it's not something that we are free to just make up our own interpretations of, because that leads to moral relativity, which is a huge problem in my opinion. I mean if you consider the monumental task it took to write the Bible. This wasnt just some novel. Its alot of work. And some of it was written thousands of years after an event took place or was supposed to take place. Wow. It would be akin to mapping the entire ocean floor with just an underwater writing board and a marker. Pretty amazing huh?
I'll take my chances with God, thanks...If I'm wrong, I lose nothing, if I'm right, I gain everything. So your picking that path only because it covers all your bases. Yah I'm sure God will love that. This is nothing more than a cheap jab from you. You know nothing about why I have chosen the faith that I have, and you seem intent on ignoring WHY i believe what I do. Tell me, would God love that you take his word and pick and choose what to believe from it? Don't pull that card with me. If the idea that my faith was just something to fall back on was actually a thought that I had, then I would be struggling with my faith indeed. I said this as food for thought, nothing more...but I think that you should examine your own beliefs before you go attacking mine, in either case. I wasnt attacking your beliefs. Your the one who said "If I'm wrong, I lose nothing, if I'm right, I gain everything." not me. If you had more to say about it then you should have said it. This is a forum. Not a mind reading class. Because in all honesty that one line sounds alike your just taking the path of least resistence. As I said, it was food for thought, and I didn't think that my little snippet of food for thought would be taken like that, if you can't discern that my faith isn't based on a fallback system, then you should read more of my posts.
As for me. My path is one of discovery. I am constantly learning new things. That is what I feel I was put here to do. I like learning too...today I learned that a man named Dewey is responsible for saving my love life...true story.
Kai
Kai
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Talking with Plano in PMs. Decided what I said marks being said in here. To you and everyone. Man we are all on different paths but the destination is the same. Instead of all us (myself included) arguing about whose path is right we should be sharing our experiances on those paths.
My mates and I all ride. We have this little semi-tradition we do called a D-Go. We all pick a direction and go. And its not the same direction for each of us. Its different ones. We just ride for about 3 to 6 hours then ride back and talk about what we saw or did. We dont sit around arguing "Hey my path is the best because its got a lake." I mean that is pretty foolish.
What you believe is right. For you. What I believe is right. For me. Yah you dont agree with it. Fine. But I agree with yours. Because its yours. So you know what? Have fun man. Go nuts. Believe what you want. Does it feel right and make you feel all warm and fuzzy? Then its right. We are all different. Inside and out. I dont think that is by accident. God, Allah, Jehovah, the Super Computer, or whatever you want to call It didnt just throw us down here to be alike did He? No. We all have something to offer.
I got so damned wrapped up in the answers the past few months I forgot what the questions were. And I shouldnt have done that. I took offense to things and instead of asking why I was answering "I right your wrong and I am talking my barbies and going home!" How foolish is that? Anyway mate lets chill. No more whose right and whose wrong.
If you feel that the destination is the same, that's your belief...obviously niether of us are going to convince eachother, but that's why forums are like one big huge game of planetside...you might gain some ground somewhere along the lines, but as soon as you do, you're just going to lose that ground because there are just so many players out there trying to shoot you in the face
I got all excited when you said that we should share experiences though, because today I had one, and it was pretty friggen amazing, I almost made a thread about it, but I decided to spare you all
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Originally posted by Draenor Originally posted by Aelfinn
I will agree with him on one point, that kind of belief is low. Although, I feel that you and Draenor have more than sufficiently shown the accusations made here false.
Indeed, if you couldn't tell by now that Plano and I don't consider our faith to be some sort of fall back mechanism, then you havn't been reading very much of these posts. Obviously that sort of faith is shallow, but accusing either of us of it is quite drastic, and ignorant. Plano's use of the phrase "better safe then sorry" is what I based 100% of my accusation on. And if he is the one that said that, I stand by my statement. If he said this, then he feels that his belief in God is a safety net on one level or another.
If you didn't say this Plano, and I misread a quote or something, my apologies.
I will agree with him on one point, that kind of belief is low. Although, I feel that you and Draenor have more than sufficiently shown the accusations made here false.
Indeed, if you couldn't tell by now that Plano and I don't consider our faith to be some sort of fall back mechanism, then you havn't been reading very much of these posts. Obviously that sort of faith is shallow, but accusing either of us of it is quite drastic, and ignorant. Plano's use of the phrase "better safe then sorry" is what I based 100% of my accusation on. And if he is the one that said that, I stand by my statement. If he said this, then he feels that his belief in God is a safety net on one level or another.
If you didn't say this Plano, and I misread a quote or something, my apologies.
You didn't misread, I just think that you need to put it into context with prior posts.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
modjoe86, if i based me whole opinion of you or your views on 4 words, id be treated like a complete jerk and retard. examine your motives, please.
even people that believe like you do are saying that thats a stupid way to pass judgement on someone. especially out of context.
also, as far as the sharing of experiences, im all for it. i honestly believe that if we were talking about other issues we could and prolly would be friends. Kai and I have been talking, and while we dont agree on some things, we still find a way to respect one another.
also, i have shared a personal experience of mine. read back a few posts or pages, not sure which, lol. some one elses turn. share why or why not you believe or disbelieve in the Bible or God. and to the flamers, please dont. we want this to be a turning point in this thread, a positive turn. if you dont have anything nice to say, say it aloud to yourself. thank you.
Originally posted by PlanoMM share why or why not you believe or disbelieve in the Bible or God.
I'm an agnostic.
"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure - that is all that agnosticism means." - Clarence Darrow
He sums it up pretty well for me. Humans don't know nearly enough about the world around us to be theists or atheists. If I can't even fathom eternity, how can I fathom a God?
share why or why not you believe or disbelieve in the Bible or God.
I'm an agnostic.
"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure - that is all that agnosticism means." - Clarence Darrow
He sums it up pretty well for me. Humans don't know nearly enough about the world around us to be theists or atheists. If I can't even fathom eternity, how can I fathom a God?
share why or why not you believe or disbelieve in the Bible or God.
I'm an agnostic.
"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure - that is all that agnosticism means." - Clarence Darrow
He sums it up pretty well for me. Humans don't know nearly enough about the world around us to be theists or atheists. If I can't even fathom eternity, how can I fathom a God?
I' m an atheist
Basically i would say that i m an atheist much like religious people believe in God, I feel it, well more than that really (not trying to be arrogant just stating what i feel) I know there is no God, no afterlife, no heaven, no hell, no great mystery.... for me heaven or hell is what you make them in here, and i m pretty sure that if someone is good and do good, he will have a much happier life than someone who dont and is just hollow, and well we only get one life.
People who knows me have a hard time believing i m an atheist, because i m positive and happy going, they seem to think that if people dont believe in God, they will be too afraid of dying to move on with their life, well that's a myth, I m not afraid of death or dying, death is part of life, and after we die, there is nothing to worry about, there will be no thoughts, no nothing, nothing to worry, nothing to be happy or to be sad of.
At this time of my life i must say that i m happy, and i believe it's in part because of my views on the world, and lot's of introspection, by knowing myself, i know what to believe without falsewoods, I have seen lot's of unhappy people who believes in God, and some of them are unhappy because of their believes.... so when someone said ealier, he believes in God just as a safety measure because he got nothing to loose, it's false, he looses something... integrity, and actually he twists the truth about himself, but if his God exists, will he be cheated by such a trick? and then wont he be at the loosing end anyway? not living his life to the fullest from fear of eternal damnation (living in hell) and blasphemy (going to hell)?
Well, sorry about that but as i was writting my thoughts kept on flowing out hehe, it isnt much on topic but it feels somewhat goot to write it lol
(when i say "i know God doesnt exists", it doesnt mean i disrespect true believers, we are just followers of what we feel and believe in, and for the "safety" believers try not to burn yourselves heh)
All People are born with sin, and a desire to sin.
Good point. I made this point one time in another forum I think - that we're all born with sin and must cope with different challenges in our lives depending on the situation. Those who are homosexual must also cope with their urge to commit sodomy by resisting it.
By the way, did I miss the Turkey threads yet? I was home for the long weekend, so I couldn't get on this site.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Originally posted by PlanoMM Originally posted by Babbuun PlanoMM. Please stop saying I want you to believe in evolution. Please stop saying I'm advocating evolution. And please stop "lol"ing your own text(it's not constructive).sorry, lol, didnt know it bothered you, lol, so much, lol, i wont do it anymore, lol. and you have responded over and over trying to convince me why the Bible is wrong and evolution is right, what else could i have gathered from your posts, pal.In the science books I've had during my high-school era, and in the medical books I'm currently reading the assumption is always that evolution is one of many theories. In most books other theories are stated as well. I have NEVER said evolution is right. You paint things black and white. You create hyperboles. I, like most other posters in this thread, am telling you religion is not based on modern factual knowledge. The medicine example is to tell you how wrong man has been. The same with the flat earth hypothesis. I'll give you an example of what your loling is like, hahahahaha. It's, hahahaha, like this, hahahaha. Please stop it. It's not necessary. You say religion was never in question? How do you explain this? Do you have thorough scans of the thoughts of every person that has ever existed? Do you realize that religion was the only alternative in many societies? People were not taught anything else explaining the nature of our existence, and since it was such an abstract concept, people believed in what the guys in charge said ("I am the king, put on my throne by God, now go and listen to your pastor and believe in him"). isnt this the case now, with the evolution taught in schools? i think that since, Draenor and i are treated like were the stupid ones for believing other than what you believe, that falls right inline with your theory there.Like I said. My text books have always mentioned creationism, panspermia, and mentioned that theories differing from these also have some evidence. It's not like you're a minority either, anywhere else than on this forum. 66% of the people of Finland believe in creationism of some kind instead of evolution. Once again I'll tell you. My mind is not set on the subject. I am closely attached to the issue because I study anatomy and biochemistry, and I do believe something as "complex" as life COULD HAVE appeared out of "nowhere" in ideal conditions. Until the last few centuries, there were only a very limited amount of empirical methods to prove anything at all.what i said was, that for 1000s of years, no one even doubted that the creation model was accurate. they never had reason to. study up on the men and women that first started the evolutionary thinking in the first place, and i think that youll see why most creationists disregard these scientists. You're using a hyperbole again. All people who defy the teachings of creation are wrong to begin with? Everyone blindly believed the bible? Most people didn't even have time to think about these things since they were too busy trying to survive to that glorious average life span of ~30 due to being exploited by the government(which was closely tied to the church back in the day). Please give me examples, I'd love to hear them. Evolution is a theory based on the physics, chemistry and biology of today. The natural sciences. Whether evolution is true or not does not matter because im just going to believe anything other than the Bible. fixed. It's an assumption <--key word made by scientists and it is constantly being changed until it somewhat makes sense. fixed. Guess what? Scientists bring out new models about the nature of our existence as well. The only thing is these theories are also based upon the natural sciences, not a compilation of contradicting man-made texts <--funniest statement in this, who are the texts written by for evolution then, if not by fallable man. lol.from thousands of years ago. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's good. contradiction, much? some of the "evidence" used by evolution is "man-made" texts written thousands of years ago, lol.Hahahaha, that's cool, hahahaha. I'm not denouncing the bible, hahahha, altogether, hahahah. I just trust things, hahahah, with a factual, hahahah, basis, hahaha, more. TRUST MORE =! believe. TRUST MORE =! think is 100% right. Please get this into your head.
Earlier on I said "go read some science books". By this I didn't mean anything of or relating to evolution. all of the "science books" that you speak of, treat evolution as fact. so of course, there going to support evolution in practice. I meant basic empirical science. You can go test most the stuff by yourself. You'll have a far better understanding of your surroundings by reading basic empirical science than the holy book of yours (the best understanding would be by doing things, of course ). hmmm.....good point, maybe by living by Biblicial principles, ive learned something. then of course there is the fact that alot of basic science facts are in the Bible in the first place. read it, and youll find out. im not going to hold your hand and quote it all out for you, if you really wanna know, youll read it yourself. i read up on everything you guys post up here.Read it and you'll find out? Read the modern biology books I've been reading and say they treat evolution as a fact afterwards. Also, please quote some of your scientific basics from the bible and I'll tell you how accurate or misinterpretable they are.
If you get hurt, a doctor will treat you based on empirical science, not on faith (we all know what happened when faith was a major part of medicine, fatality rates were in the clouds and the average age of a human being was ~30).but by treating you, a doctor isnt going to use trial and error, is he/she? nuff said. and again, i dont have a problem with science.What the doctor is doing is based around trial and error. A doctor practices surgery with corpses, perhaps fails, perhaps doesn't(but his skills get better). The doctor learns about the things others have learned through trial and error and trusts the empirical statements of others. If the doctor fails at treating you with this knowledge, he can go on to write about it in his patient review and perhaps alter the way the treatment is done. Medicine is all about trial and error. You make your hypothesis about the patient, if your treatment works most of the time, you'll know you're doing the right thing, if it doesn't you'll know you have to find a different way. In times before clinical medicinal science the doctor didn't take the blame, he just said the case was in God's hands and forgot about it, treating consequetive patients in the same way. Draenor. The empirical science = religion arguement was just pulled off the top of your head. Just tell me how empirical science = religion if I think about it? Religion isn't empirical (to me: empirical = observable trial & error in controlled conditions). Please think before you type.
You doubt plate tectonics. How do you explain earthquakes? How do you explain Iceland and the mountainous islands forming near it? Why do you think the Appalachians are covered by vegetation and the Rocky Mountains are as rocky as ever?he never said that he doubted plate tectonics. think before you type, lol. I believe his exact words were:Mount Everest is flat, and then some clams die on it, and then shifts around due to plate techtonics to the point that it becomes the highest mountain in the world, and those fossilized clams remain intact after hundreds of millions of years of geological shifts. Am I the only one that finds this absurd?He doubts plate tectonics are capable of doing such "grand" things in such a "delicate" fashion. It's "absurd". Sentimental connotation in scientific context.
It's happened to Christianity before, most famously when we dug in our heels over Galileo's challenge to the biblical view that the Earth, rather than the sun, was at the center of our solar system.
That was a Biblical view? Could anyone list a passage for me?
For many, especially in the scientific community, Christianity never recovered.
Uh huh?
The point is this: Without choice, there can be no moral culpability.
First off, I'm not even certain if homosexuality = a sin is a scriptural or even biblical concept. I believe homosexuality is a sinful nature, but it's not like it, itself, is a sin because you may not be able to choose whether or not you are homosexual. Some people may be born as homosexuals (I'm uncertain of this) while others choose to be homosexual or bisexual.
So, why are so many church leaders (not to mention Orthodox Jewish and Muslim leaders) persisting in their view that homosexuality is wrong despite a growing stream of scientific evidence that is likely to become a torrent in the coming years? The answer is found in Leviticus 18. "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination."
I still believe it to be wrong, but having a sinful nature and acting on that nature to sin are two different things. And that passage in Leviticus illustrates Sodomy. It does not reprimand someone for being homosexual but for acting on their homosexual desires.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather "Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Originally posted by Adreal It's happened to Christianity before, most famously when we dug in our heels over Galileo's challenge to the biblical view that the Earth, rather than the sun, was at the center of our solar system. That was a Biblical view? Could anyone list a passage for me? For many, especially in the scientific community, Christianity never recovered. Uh huh? The point is this: Without choice, there can be no moral culpability. First off, I'm not even certain if homosexuality = a sin is a scriptural or even biblical concept. I believe homosexuality is a sinful nature, but it's not like it, itself, is a sin because you may not be able to choose whether or not you are homosexual. Some people may be born as homosexuals (I'm uncertain of this) while others choose to be homosexual or bisexual. So, why are so many church leaders (not to mention Orthodox Jewish and Muslim leaders) persisting in their view that homosexuality is wrong despite a growing stream of scientific evidence that is likely to become a torrent in the coming years? The answer is found in Leviticus 18. "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination." I still believe it to be wrong, but having a sinful nature and acting on that nature to sin are two different things. And that passage in Leviticus illustrates Sodomy. It does not reprimand someone for being homosexual but for acting on their homosexual desires.
Leviticus should be taken as read. There is alot of stuff in there that doesnt make sense. And if homosexuality is a sin because of that one passage then men who touch the bed of a woman who is menstrating should be put to death. If a man has relations with an animal then that man should be put to death...and also the animal. What? Was the sheep coming on to him?
In the science books I've had during my high-school era, and in the medical books I'm currently reading the assumption is always that evolution is one of many theories. In most books other theories are stated as well. I have NEVER said evolution is right. You paint things black and white. You create hyperboles. I, like most other posters in this thread, am telling you religion is not based on modern factual knowledge. The medicine example is to tell you how wrong man has been. The same with the flat earth hypothesis.
I'll give you an example of what your loling is like, hahahahaha. It's, hahahaha, like this, hahahaha. Please stop it. It's not necessary. actually, from grade school all the way up through high school and college, evolution was indeed taught as fact where i live. i dont know how it is for you, but i believe most would agree with me on this one. and once again, (/sigh), creationism is just as much based on the facts that real science provide as evolution. and the flat earth deal wasnt and isnt Bible at all. read it. its in psalms. im not your sunday school teacher. im sure you have a Bible, whether you believe in it or not. im sure you know how to find Psalms and start reading in it. Oo, and lolollololololllolloloooolllolollllooloololllollool, VANGUARDS GONNA RULE!!!!!! YAHOOOOOOO!!!!!! hehe........lollolollollol, is that better, lol. by the way, youre the best at making me laugh, forgive me if i express that fact in me posts. like the fact that youre getting so pissy over something so small and stupid as typing lol too much.
Like I said. My text books have always mentioned creationism, panspermia, and mentioned that theories differing from these also have some evidence. It's not like you're a minority either, anywhere else than on this forum. 66% of the people of Finland believe in creationism of some kind instead of evolution. Once again I'll tell you. My mind is not set on the subject. I am closely attached to the issue because I study anatomy and biochemistry, and I do believe something as "complex" as life COULD HAVE appeared out of "nowhere" in ideal conditions. and like i said, the only place that creationism was ever taught where i lived is in sunday school and through AIG. thank you for saying that were not in the minority, but i do believe that we are in the minority. but Oo well. you might be right, idk. You're using a hyperbole again. All people who defy the teachings of creation are wrong to begin with? Everyone blindly believed the bible? Most people didn't even have time to think about these things since they were too busy trying to survive to that glorious average life span of ~30 due to being exploited by the government(which was closely tied to the church back in the day). Please give me examples, I'd love to hear them. well, if you really wanna play that average life span card, then what are our scientists doing wrong. Adam and several generations after lived for more than 800 years each. hmm.....wonder what kind of scientists they had? btw, your beloved science was also tied closely to the church and government. in fact, that flat earth example that you mentioned earlier. it was the scientists that rejected a round world model. the Bible in Psalms and Genesis both support a round earth. Hahahaha, that's cool, hahahaha. I'm not denouncing the bible, hahahha, altogether, hahahah. I just trust things, hahahah, with a factual, hahahah, basis, hahaha, more. TRUST MORE =! believe. TRUST MORE =! think is 100% right. Please get this into your head. as soon as you get this through your head. belief in the Bible and creationism =! stupidity. there are numberous scientific facts found in the Bible. and belief in science =! more inteligence. especially when some of it is based on assumptions that arent proven.
Read it and you'll find out? Read the modern biology books I've been reading and say they treat evolution as a fact afterwards. Also, please quote some of your scientific basics from the bible and I'll tell you how accurate or misinterpretable they are. you mean you want me to read a modern biology book that teaches all of its truths based on an assumption that evolution is fact? because every modern biology book ive ever read or studied did. and ive already told you, im not going to hold your hand, its in there. if you wanna know, read the Bible. your statement of "please quote some of your scientific basics from the Bible and ill tell you how accurate or misinterpretable they are." is the equivalent of me telling you to quote entire articles from biology and chemistry and ill tell you how factual they are. care to put forth the effort? me either, i dont care if you believe me. im posting in this forum for the sake and fun of discussing this issue. not to make converts, lol. what you decide to do with the info in this post/thread/topic is your business.
What the doctor is doing is based around trial and error. A doctor practices surgery with corpses, perhaps fails, perhaps doesn't(but his skills get better). The doctor learns about the things others have learned through trial and error and trusts the empirical statements of others. If the doctor fails at treating you with this knowledge, he can go on to write about it in his patient review and perhaps alter the way the treatment is done. Medicine is all about trial and error. You make your hypothesis about the patient, if your treatment works most of the time, you'll know you're doing the right thing, if it doesn't you'll know you have to find a different way. In times before clinical medicinal science the doctor didn't take the blame, he just said the case was in God's hands and forgot about it, treating consequetive patients in the same way. if a doctor told me, "im going to use trial and error on you," i think that id be finding a new doctor. i get your point, but still......
he never said that he doubted plate tectonics. think before you type, lol.
I believe his exact words were: Mount Everest is flat, and then some clams die on it, and then shifts around due to plate techtonics to the point that it becomes the highest mountain in the world, and those fossilized clams remain intact after hundreds of millions of years of geological shifts. Am I the only one that finds this absurd? He doubts plate tectonics are capable of doing such "grand" things in such a "delicate" fashion. It's "absurd". Sentimental connotation in scientific context. wrong, he doesnt doubt plate tectonics at all. all he was saying is that it didnt happen the same way that evolution says it did. maybe he didnt word it quite right, but thats not what he was trying to convey.
Comments
I didn't mind you "butting" in one bit. Its just that you assumed an earlier statement of mine reffered to what I thought of your arguments in this thread. No, you and Draenor have not used that cliche argument, and to be honest, its quite refreshing.
actually, im not even the one that used the "Paschal's Wager" in the first place. and me faith in God isnt a "just in case" case. but even if it were, if im right, then atheists are in a bad way. if im wrong, then no one is in a bad way. so why the insults? and your condescending attitude towards anyone is completely unfounded, because youre nobody special. you dont rule anything. all it does is prove that you believe yourself better than others, which is what is "pitiful".
I do believe he's making a mistake in judgement here. He is assuming at this point that the only, or at least the primary reason you believe as you do is so that you have all the bases covered. That if you thought that there was no chance of going to hell, you'd walk away without a backwards glance.
I will agree with him on one point, that kind of belief is low. Although, I feel that you and Draenor have more than sufficiently shown the accusations made here false.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
I didn't mind you "butting" in one bit. Its just that you assumed an earlier statement of mine reffered to what I thought of your arguments in this thread. No, you and Draenor have not used that cliche argument, and to be honest, its quite refreshing.
actually, im not even the one that used the "Paschal's Wager" in the first place. and me faith in God isnt a "just in case" case. but even if it were, if im right, then atheists are in a bad way. if im wrong, then no one is in a bad way. so why the insults? and your condescending attitude towards anyone is completely unfounded, because youre nobody special. you dont rule anything. all it does is prove that you believe yourself better than others, which is what is "pitiful".
I do believe he's making a mistake in judgement here. He is assuming at this point that the only, or at least the primary reason you believe as you do is so that you have all the bases covered. That if you thought that there was no chance of going to hell, you'd walk away without a backwards glance.
I will agree with him on one point, that kind of belief is low. Although, I feel that you and Draenor have more than sufficiently shown the accusations made here false.
thank you on both accounts. and yes, if that were me only reason for believing, then i might as well walk away. cause guess what, God knows, either way.
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Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
No, it is the word of "god" watered down by the lies of man.
No, it is the word of "god" watered down by the lies of man.
Right, but I don't believe that fallable men have ever changed the language of genesis, to change the meaning from 6 days, to several hundred million. Anyway, origional texts and translations of the Bible still exist, if it had gotten so bad that the origional message was lost, then there would be a problem.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Indeed, if you couldn't tell by now that Plano and I don't consider our faith to be some sort of fall back mechanism, then you havn't been reading very much of these posts. Obviously that sort of faith is shallow, but accusing either of us of it is quite drastic, and ignorant.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
No, it is the word of "god" watered down by the lies of man.
Right, but I don't believe that fallable men have ever changed the language of genesis, to change the meaning from 6 days, to several hundred million. Anyway, origional texts and translations of the Bible still exist, if it had gotten so bad that the origional message was lost, then there would be a problem.
But it destroys the ability to interpret the bible literally. How do you know that a day in god's time is not billions of years in our time (this is not asking for you to post another ansersingenisis.com thing)? 40 days didn't mean 40 days in the bible, it meant a reasonable amount of time, not something specific. Same thing with 40 years, the writers of the bible didn't know exactly how long it had been so they used the number 40 to represent a long period of time. The same for the number seven. Also, when they talk about people being 800+ years old, they didn't know about the 365 day revolution around the sun, so their years were different.
Either way, with the fallacy of man, you cannot interpret something that is supposed to be the word of god literally.
Kai
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Kai
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Talking with Plano in PMs. Decided what I said marks being said in here. To you and everyone. Man we are all on different paths but the destination is the same. Instead of all us (myself included) arguing about whose path is right we should be sharing our experiances on those paths.
My mates and I all ride. We have this little semi-tradition we do called a D-Go. We all pick a direction and go. And its not the same direction for each of us. Its different ones. We just ride for about 3 to 6 hours then ride back and talk about what we saw or did. We dont sit around arguing "Hey my path is the best because its got a lake." I mean that is pretty foolish.
What you believe is right. For you. What I believe is right. For me. Yah you dont agree with it. Fine. But I agree with yours. Because its yours. So you know what? Have fun man. Go nuts. Believe what you want. Does it feel right and make you feel all warm and fuzzy? Then its right. We are all different. Inside and out. I dont think that is by accident. God, Allah, Jehovah, the Super Computer, or whatever you want to call It didnt just throw us down here to be alike did He? No. We all have something to offer.
I got so damned wrapped up in the answers the past few months I forgot what the questions were. And I shouldnt have done that. I took offense to things and instead of asking why I was answering "I right your wrong and I am talking my barbies and going home!" How foolish is that? Anyway mate lets chill. No more whose right and whose wrong.
Anyway I gott jet. Work early
Kai
If you feel that the destination is the same, that's your belief...obviously niether of us are going to convince eachother, but that's why forums are like one big huge game of planetside...you might gain some ground somewhere along the lines, but as soon as you do, you're just going to lose that ground because there are just so many players out there trying to shoot you in the face
I got all excited when you said that we should share experiences though, because today I had one, and it was pretty friggen amazing, I almost made a thread about it, but I decided to spare you all
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Indeed, if you couldn't tell by now that Plano and I don't consider our faith to be some sort of fall back mechanism, then you havn't been reading very much of these posts. Obviously that sort of faith is shallow, but accusing either of us of it is quite drastic, and ignorant.
Plano's use of the phrase "better safe then sorry" is what I based 100% of my accusation on. And if he is the one that said that, I stand by my statement. If he said this, then he feels that his belief in God is a safety net on one level or another.
If you didn't say this Plano, and I misread a quote or something, my apologies.
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Indeed, if you couldn't tell by now that Plano and I don't consider our faith to be some sort of fall back mechanism, then you havn't been reading very much of these posts. Obviously that sort of faith is shallow, but accusing either of us of it is quite drastic, and ignorant.
Plano's use of the phrase "better safe then sorry" is what I based 100% of my accusation on. And if he is the one that said that, I stand by my statement. If he said this, then he feels that his belief in God is a safety net on one level or another.
If you didn't say this Plano, and I misread a quote or something, my apologies.
You didn't misread, I just think that you need to put it into context with prior posts.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
modjoe86, if i based me whole opinion of you or your views on 4 words, id be treated like a complete jerk and retard. examine your motives, please.
even people that believe like you do are saying that thats a stupid way to pass judgement on someone. especially out of context.
also, as far as the sharing of experiences, im all for it. i honestly believe that if we were talking about other issues we could and prolly would be friends. Kai and I have been talking, and while we dont agree on some things, we still find a way to respect one another.
also, i have shared a personal experience of mine. read back a few posts or pages, not sure which, lol. some one elses turn. share why or why not you believe or disbelieve in the Bible or God. and to the flamers, please dont. we want this to be a turning point in this thread, a positive turn. if you dont have anything nice to say, say it aloud to yourself. thank you.
/pulls his flame retardent cloak over his head
Ok, im ready.
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"I
do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an
agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure -
that is all that agnosticism means." - Clarence Darrow
He sums it up pretty well for me. Humans don't know nearly enough about the world around us to be theists or atheists. If I can't even fathom eternity, how can I fathom a God?
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"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure - that is all that agnosticism means." - Clarence Darrow
He sums it up pretty well for me. Humans don't know nearly enough about the world around us to be theists or atheists. If I can't even fathom eternity, how can I fathom a God?
very strong point.
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"I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure - that is all that agnosticism means." - Clarence Darrow
He sums it up pretty well for me. Humans don't know nearly enough about the world around us to be theists or atheists. If I can't even fathom eternity, how can I fathom a God?
I' m an atheist
Basically i would say that i m an atheist much like religious people believe in God, I feel it, well more than that really (not trying to be arrogant just stating what i feel) I know there is no God, no afterlife, no heaven, no hell, no great mystery.... for me heaven or hell is what you make them in here, and i m pretty sure that if someone is good and do good, he will have a much happier life than someone who dont and is just hollow, and well we only get one life.
People who knows me have a hard time believing i m an atheist, because i m positive and happy going, they seem to think that if people dont believe in God, they will be too afraid of dying to move on with their life, well that's a myth, I m not afraid of death or dying, death is part of life, and after we die, there is nothing to worry about, there will be no thoughts, no nothing, nothing to worry, nothing to be happy or to be sad of.
At this time of my life i must say that i m happy, and i believe it's in part because of my views on the world, and lot's of introspection, by knowing myself, i know what to believe without falsewoods, I have seen lot's of unhappy people who believes in God, and some of them are unhappy because of their believes.... so when someone said ealier, he believes in God just as a safety measure because he got nothing to loose, it's false, he looses something... integrity, and actually he twists the truth about himself, but if his God exists, will he be cheated by such a trick? and then wont he be at the loosing end anyway? not living his life to the fullest from fear of eternal damnation (living in hell) and blasphemy (going to hell)?
Well, sorry about that but as i was writting my thoughts kept on flowing out hehe, it isnt much on topic but it feels somewhat goot to write it lol
(when i say "i know God doesnt exists", it doesnt mean i disrespect true believers, we are just followers of what we feel and believe in, and for the "safety" believers try not to burn yourselves heh)
All People are born with sin, and a desire to sin.
Good point. I made this point one time in another forum I think - that we're all born with sin and must cope with different challenges in our lives depending on the situation. Those who are homosexual must also cope with their urge to commit sodomy by resisting it.
By the way, did I miss the Turkey threads yet? I was home for the long weekend, so I couldn't get on this site.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
It's happened to Christianity before, most famously when we dug in our heels over Galileo's challenge to the biblical view that the Earth, rather than the sun, was at the center of our solar system.
That was a Biblical view? Could anyone list a passage for me?
For many, especially in the scientific community, Christianity never recovered.
Uh huh?
The point is this: Without choice, there can be no moral culpability.
First off, I'm not even certain if homosexuality = a sin is a scriptural or even biblical concept. I believe homosexuality is a sinful nature, but it's not like it, itself, is a sin because you may not be able to choose whether or not you are homosexual. Some people may be born as homosexuals (I'm uncertain of this) while others choose to be homosexual or bisexual.
So, why are so many church leaders (not to mention Orthodox Jewish and Muslim leaders) persisting in their view that homosexuality is wrong despite a growing stream of scientific evidence that is likely to become a torrent in the coming years? The answer is found in Leviticus 18. "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination."
I still believe it to be wrong, but having a sinful nature and acting on that nature to sin are two different things. And that passage in Leviticus illustrates Sodomy. It does not reprimand someone for being homosexual but for acting on their homosexual desires.
"Put your foot where your mouth is." - Wisdom from my grandfather
"Paper or plastic? ... because I'm afraid I'll have to suffocate you unless you put this bag on your head..." - Ethnitrek
AC1: Wierding from Harvestgain
Kai
actually, Kai, if a man is "lying" with animals, IMO, he should be put to death, lol.
me 2 gps worth.
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