Originally posted by aquaangel you mean in case you weren't clear. Your comment is a personal attack on an individual, not the company. There is a distinction and a persons personal life is not open for debate in relation to the company or the game. Also unless you have absolute proof of such an incident you are opening yourself (and the site) up for libel. Btw Trying to post such proof here is probably going to cause more problems then its worth.
I believe KK's earlier rules that GMs were not suppose to use the same screen name as what they used in the overall community as to eliminate recognition which could lead to biased behaviour. Didn't look like that was the case with Danae. If she did, what I already mentioned would never had happen. So, my comments can be construed as to question the company's policies that should have eliminated GM recognition. As for a person's personal life, anyone who used to hang out in certain public chat room a couple of years ago knows all about the problems between Jarod and Danae and what had happened. If people want to keep their personal life personal, they should never talk about it in a public place. I could be no more sued for libel if I said of the MTV couple Nick and Jessica were having problems. I never once said that Danae was biased and would help out long time friends of the NC community. In this case, I just said I wouldn't be suprised if she did. And if this gives you an idea of one GM, it's likely that this does reflect on other GMs and KK's policies.
BTW, I really have nothing against Danae and I promise not to ever mention anything about her personal life again. She had her own reasons for what she did and you are right, that's not debateable.
As for a person's personal life, anyone who used to hang out in certain public chat room a couple of years ago knows all about the problems between Jarod and Danae and what had happened.
So you're making a personal attack on someone due to hearsay from an internet forum? You must be stupider than you seem, if you heard someone talking about one of your best friends online would you automatically believe everything that was said? ...I didn't think so...so basically your talking crap about something you haven't a clue about in order to back up your already weak argument
Originally posted by Melkior So you're making a personal attack on someone due to hearsay from an internet forum? You must be stupider than you seem, if you heard someone talking about one of your best friends online would you automatically believe everything that was said? ...I didn't think so...so basically your talking crap about something you haven't a clue about in order to back up your already weak argument
Not hearsay. I knew and talked to them both. And I didn't mean it to be a personal attack. It's a GM that someone thought did something questionable and that person wanted an apology (please read the previous posts). I was trying to give that person an apology a more of an insight on the person he was expecting an apology from. Now it makes me want to go back and delete the post because like I said before, I have nothing against Danae.
As for a person's personal life, anyone who used to hang out in certain public chat room a couple of years ago knows all about the problems between Jarod and Danae and what had happened.
So you're making a personal attack on someone due to hearsay from an internet forum? You must be stupider than you seem, if you heard someone talking about one of your best friends online would you automatically believe everything that was said? ...I didn't think so...so basically your talking crap about something you haven't a clue about in order to back up your already weak argument
Originally posted by aquaangel Might want to reread what you wrote, and when your finished reading it delete it and get back on topic of the thread.
I didn't delete it for your sake. I was already deleting before I saw your post. And I still hold to what I said that you quoted me with.
I'm not sure what you mean about me logging off early and missing some information when this stuff was happening for quite a long time period (over a few months). And Jarod was a friend of mine, since this concerned him, I don't find the information as second hand. Like I said, for respect of all partied involved, I won't mention any details about the subject. If you think you know me from NC and you think I missed something, email me. I'm sorry that I brought any of this up.
Originally posted by Ravnos80 Kriminal...you are so full of shit man it's not even funny...I can't figure out why you're still in NC, if indeed you are...if you hate the game leave...leave and don't look back...the only reason you post your baseless accusations here is because it is not now or ever allowed in the NC forums...
Posted by Odin, Head of International Support Anyone posting unfounded accusations against mods/GM's or KK staff will receive a one week ban effective immediately. Second offenses will result in posting privileges being revoked. The amount of frivolous, unbased, unfounded, heard from a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend comments has gotten to be too much of an annoyance. These volunteer mods and gm's work anywhere from 6-10 hours of their day on a volunteer status and don't need the bs that comes from those that hold grudges during the course of their work. Any complaints about GM's/mods etc can be filed either through PM with myself or via abuse@neocron.com and will be dealt with internally as it always has been.
And the definition for an xploit has not changed as long as I've been around...it's still using any bug or fault in the system to gain an unfair advantage over other players...that has not changed...You're whole paragraph about xploits is so full of bs...makes me wonder what you've been banned for...there's optimizing and then there's "optimzing" (hacks etc) the latter will get you banned...and should get you banned...using terrain is not going to get you banned...but hiding inside of something that is obviously not supposed to be hid in...like "magically" slipping inside a piece of terrain or something like that ...common sense here...the name thing...gms aren't gonna ban some dude who picks a name that a GM has as long as he doesn't impersonate said GM...but if they dude is acting like he's a GM to gain things from unwitting players...then yes...he will get banned and should get banned...powergamers have never been banned from NC...UNLESS they do something they know to be illegal
--Dade
Actually I left the game 6 months ago and left several times before that for long periods and came back to check. Those accusations are NOT unfounded, that is WHY they are not allowed on their own forums because the people who run that game want to be able to do whatever they want to the customers and not allow them to communicate this and warn each other. So YES that IS why I am posting it here in hopes that people will be forewarned about the rediculousness, and immaturity of the people that run this game.
I had been following the game for a very long time, and once MYSELF had a gm steal top level equipment for a friend of his that attacked me and lost it in a fair pvp match. I have had gms curse me out, transport me to jails, accuse me of cheating and threaten to erase my character and or ban me simply for defeating their friends in fair pvp. Many other people have had similar experiences and it is something that was complained about up until the point that they figured out they could get away with it simply by not allowing people to talk about it... I did not mention these things before because supposedly they have cleaned up a bit, but all they have really done is just made an effort to keep this stuff from being as blatantly obvious as it was before. Even way after the gm issue was supposedly fixed, I had a clan of players all use exploits to repeatedly gank a low level character of mine (poison zoning) and then brag about how I couldn't do anything because their friend the gm wouldn't listen to me. And sure enough the gm tried to stonewall me.
The point that talking about their policies is not allowed IS THE WHOLE point of this thread. If their staff was legitimate they wouldn't have to have a rule like that would they? The vast majority of complaints that were made before this rule WERE legitimate. Their very tone in this post shows their inexperience in customer service and buisness in general... Its not our business weather they pay their staff or not, and weather or not people CHOOSE to work for free. That does not give them the right to ruin the game for paying customers by screwing around and doing whatever the heck they want.
I was never Banned from the game. I left... Exploiting a bug in the game which is what the definition was before does not mean attacking enemies from behind cover like swat team members do. Yet gms banned people for this. It does not mean raiding enemy factions with npcs and killing them, yet people were banned for this. Any tactic which actually allowed you to kill or hide from npcs (which are grossly more powerful then players) other than hugely outnumbering them, people got in trouble for. If you raided a underprotected area that was being used for a player store by someone who was friends with a gm, you could get banned. None of these things have anything to do with "exploiting a bug". THere was nothing about "weakness in the game" until recently.
No they dont fix things they don't like by redesigning the game, they just threaten and ban their paying customers for anything they were not able to think of as a possiblity but didn't want to happen.
You speak out of ignorance regarding powergamers my friend. It is easy to say that "they probably knew they shouldn't do that" until some gm singles you out because you are doing something that is perfectly fair and you always thought was allowed. Which I have seen happen to many many people in the game. Luckily in my case all that happened was gms threatening me simply for winning and backed down when I made it clear I had not done anything wrong. This however opened my eyes and I have been seeing it happen to others ever since. Note that GM's don't even agree on what is fair or not, yet THEY are the ones which decide if something is allowed or not. Which means its IMPOSSIBLE to know what is to be considered fair or not. And many gms do not like things which are completely selfish (claiming something is or is not wrong just to help their friends) and or make no sense to anyone but the gm.
I have never cheated (I don't use hax to try and make myself look good in a video game oO) and have not done either one anything I considered to be unfair or anything the people I actually pay my money to have said to be unfair. I decided never to come back when I saw that they changed exploit to basically mean "anything the gms dont like" Which is how it was being handled before anyways but I always figured if something unfair happened I just figured I could get it fixed by talking to the people I actually pay my money too. The only confrontation I have had with gms was regarding false accusations of speed hacks simply for winning (or because their shoddy network code made it look like I was attached to the ceiling or something which happens quite often) Funny that they seem to have no problem flinging false accusations at PAYING CUSTOMERS even as they yell at them for complaining about all the bs and attitude they get from the games staff (volunteer and otherwise)
Originally posted by aquaangel
What Kriminal99 fails to mention is that he quit the game about 4 months ago. He has actually quit a few times and come back. The game has changed a lot since then. Also you should understand his playstyle. He was a PK'er who like his easy kills. In the beginning of NC it was a bit of a gank-a-thon, now there are more risks involved in the game. Risks that some players don't like. They prefer thier lambs to be easy slaughtered. Like all mmorpgs if you exploit or you are detrimental to the game you get removed from the game. No Refund. I don't know of any other mmorpg that refunds your cash if you have been an ass in game (note: Kriminal99 was not banned afaik so I am not directing this at him). This is clearly mentioned in your terms of service that you agree to before playing. the accusations it is up to you to point them out. Make it recent stuff, and if you claim its on the pay forums sections thats ok because I can read them too.
Again can you cite examples to this? I have never seen any such incident.
A looong time ago. That is certainly not the case now. Only KK staff can spawn items and all items are logged. Normal GMs cannot spawn anything at all, likewise with FCs. You make this sound like "Boo! I'm going to rollback on you!". They only make character rollbacks if there was corrupt character or a problem with the server OR the player requests it (due to bug). Again this is no different then any other mmorpg out there. Some have different data backup procedures and you could certainly argue on that.
There have been accusations, and those found have been banned. But as I mentioned only top level GMs can spawn stuff now.
Part of the rules of the forum is you do not talk about stuff that should be reported to KK. You know this. If you have an issue you should email the exploits or abuse line.
They are not ignored. Prehaps it is only you? If a GM says its an exploit, you stop doing it. Even if it says elsewhere you can do it. GMs rule is law. Quite simple to follow.
Translation: If you are the sort of person who likes to abuse the game mechanics to get ahead in the game you will be banned sooner or later. Which I agree with.
You cannot be banned for ducking behind cover. Prehaps you would like to expand on that? Channel abuse is normally told to stop it. If you stop they leave you alone. Intentionally attempting to pretend to be someone else (normally to steal peoples stuff) like you mention also gets you banned. I am pretty sure this is the same in other games. NC has the most liberal attitude when it comes to killing/thieves however you abuse the game mechanics you get spanked.
This is BS too. As for the CON levelling, it was mentioned it was an exploit for a reason and people were warned not to do it, and are warned when they get caught.
Exception of a Tank, it is easy to cap CON by levelling and is normally one of the first few to cap. PE would be second on the levelling. Which makes me wonder when you quit you didn't voice your opinions about customer service? Your big leaving speech is still in the forums for everyone to read, as well as how you used to play the game. You were not liked for your playstyle. Prehaps a different game would be better suited for you. .. nothing I can say without sounding like a fanboi, but the game is good. People get bored and leave, game isn't for everyone but it is worth looking at.
Yes I quit the game a while ago.... No I am not a pker that goes for "easy kills"... where did that come from? Do you even know my characters in that game? It doesn't really make sense to start out a claim of baselessness with an OBVIOUSLY baseless claim. I have said nothing of who I am in Neocron, how could you possibly know anything about me?
Ill just assume that you heard someone named kriminal99 from the forums was a pker or something in game- This is neither the time or place for a discussion about pvp. No all pvpers are not "newbie gankers". No we don't like easy kills we like pvp to be meaningful something which the game destroyed by putting safeslots and locking quickbelts. What does this have to do with anything?
Anyways it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what is wrong with your statement about people being banned when they are determined to be detrimental to the game. In most societies people have things called "trials" because if they did not people would be lynched every time some mob decided they didn't like something someone did even if the person is in the right and the mob was wrong (Or worse not even a mob just the people in control as is the case in most mmorpgs) - And more importantly weather the person ACTUALLY did anything is not even an issue without a trial because all it takes is the people in control to be irritated.
The point is some games come up with ways to be fair and others do not they just ban or threaten whoever they want to. Neocron falls into the latter category, and "detrimental to society" is not ever an issue because no thought process is utilized to ACCURATELY determine such a thing.
The stuff on the forums I am referring to IS THEIR POLICIES. I am not only talking about their general dealing with forum people. Anyone intelligent can read their policies and realize something is not right... The self contradictions, the propaganda sounding statements etc. Defining an exploit, something which cause a person to lose their investment in the game as vaguely as "a weakness in the game". Talking about how they don't pay their gm staff and because they don't pay them we as paying customers should take it upon ourselves to allow them to walk all over us and do whatever they want so they wont leave... How every statement is worded as if it was an order given by a military superior. Perhaps a younger person or fanboy does not see the problem here but any seasoned consumer or buisnessman either one can see the rediculousness of their attitude.
And I am NOT talking idealistically as in its just screwed up even though there may not be any other way. A consumer knows better because they have gotten better. A good buisnessman knows better because they understand people or have been somewhere where they have seen better tactics of dealing with customers. Unbiasedness and a good attitude are easily aquired when your staff is actually PAID. Honesty and straightforwardness is the best policy. Your customers get pissed at something explain to them you are sorry and that you are doing the best you can to provide a service with the resources you have. Any fool can learn these things working in their local resturaunt or pub for not even a year. These people run their mmorpg with all the charm of a brutal dictators regime...
Specifically every time they introduce a new rule they talk about how "You guys ruined it because you guys did this and YOU GUYS did that" First of all its just plain stupid and unnescessary to place blame on customers for design flaws in the game. Psychologists call this "projection" and most succesful buisnessmen overcome this impulse... Second they are yelling at people not even responsible for what they are yelling about!! Constantly grouping everyone together is equally silly. They get angry and fling their anger at everyone around them equally like a 2 year old throwing a temper tantrum.
Yes gms can probably no longer spawn items but this isn't really what I meant. I was speaking more along the lines of their position as "judge jury and exectuioner" quite a rediculous position for someone who isn't even paid and is doing the job based on "personal reasons" (meaning they wan't to wipe the grin of the face of those stupid carebears, or pkers, or germans, or americans, or whoever they secretly don't like)
About the character rollbacks I was speaking of the combination of A) adding "taking advantage of a weakness" to the definition of exploit, Giving GM's the power to rollback characters and C) Giving VOLUNTEER gms the unchecked power to determine what are exploits (independent of each others decisions), weather someone is actually guilty of using one, and what to do about it.
Looking back at how gms have handled things in the past, that BOO! rollback scenario is something that is likely to happen to quite a few people.
The forum rules are that way SPECIFICALLY because when they screw up and gms screw over their customers they don't want the customers to be able to tell and warn each other. Anotherwords they are being DISHONEST. Furthermore only the most serious and blatantly obvious complaints (such as gms mass murdering players in invincible mode or camping the highest dungeon with similarly tweaked out characters) are even dealt with when sent in and even then no feedback is given to customers to allow them to know if unfairness is dealt with. Again this is DISHONESTY. They don't tell the customers how they deal with things because they do not want the customers to know when they let things slide that would probably piss the customers off. Obviously if a blatantly cheating GM was fired there would be no reason to let people know the situation has been taken care of.
How do you know complaints are not ignored? They don't tell anyone how anything is dealt with... I know they ARE ignored because I and people I know that have had very screwed up encounters with gms have made complaints and the gms were still there AND with an attitude showing there was no strain on them to act legitimately.
Yes GM's rule is law, THAT is the problem. One day some naive immature person could be verbally sparring with you, the next day they could be a gm banning you. They do not have or use the reasoning capacity to be determining what is fair and is not fair and how it should be dealt with.
Your translation of "powergamer" is EXACTLY my point. The game is based on competion and competition drives peopel for better ways to play the game. Abuse of game mechanics is translated to mean defeating the gms friends fairly. If there is something you think as a developer TRULY unbalances the game you CHANGE it you don't threaten, badger and ban your paying customers.
Yes many people were banned at one point for ducking behind cover by a or more than one gm. They believed that you should have to run out into the open then shoot monsters then run back to heal instead which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard yet they banned people for it. At another time people got in trouble for even doing this in MC5 (the hardest dungeon) because they had not intended for there to be any place to duck behind even to heal. However it turned out that if you went to a certain place the AI could not figure out how to get to you even though it would be obvious and easy to a person. Are players supposed to read the minds of the developers to determine exactly what is and what is not what they intended? Of course not.
I can only imagine what GM's classify as "channel abuse". Also the rules about naming similarities allow GM's to do much more than ban people for item stealing... CON leveling? PLEASE. Where do you draw the line. If you pvp with your friends and take hits is that exploiting? People do this because they need to level their CON. If you Spar with a single friend to level CON is it? Suddenly when you just zap yourself with a friend to heal you this is exploiting? Absolutely rediculous. If they want to change it they DEVISE A MORE INTELLIGENT LEVELING SCHEME. Again badgering your paying customer for your own uninventiveness is absolutely absurd. No Tanks are always going to cap CON last. It takes obscene amounts of exp to cap something that your class specializes in that game and CON just doesn't level that fast normally and there is nothig you can do. I mostly only played the Tank class....
Again you comment on my "playstyle". Assuming you know something about what you are talking about the only thing I can think of is that I always liked to trick people into thinking I had no skills and then completely wiping the floor with them when they least expected it. This is something I have enjoyed doing my entire life specifically BECAUSE it makes people realize that they try and put people down in order to compare to themselves and think better of themselves - That all aggressive acts are done out of fear. Some people don't have the maturity to realize, grow and deal with this as adults and simply try and lie and deny reality and make up bs about me...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Lets get a few things straight, every action a GM performs is logged, for the simple reason that in the past people have abused their power, there have been no cases to my knowledge of what you accuse KK of kriminal99, however im just a player i dont have all the answers.
Gm's are voluntary members of our community, although there is a strict selection process, a few bad eggs can slip through, it's unfair to judge the whole of the Gm community by the actions of a few people who have been removed, the actions you speak of are not difficult to prove should they have actually happened, you realise that no gm has the physical capability to 'steal' items from you? Only members of the KK team 'ie the dev team' have access to your chars, and they are even more closely monitored than Gm's are, i admit i to have made complaints against certain people, more to the point certain clans, i know that there is a large element of mistrust between players and the gm team, but lets remember that the gms are players first and foremost, any and every complaint i ever made has been taken seriously and has been investigated, i've had THE BEST customer services of ANY MMORPG i've ever played, sure the game is a little buggy at times *large understatement i admit*
If your friend had items stolen by a GM, then there are some serious issues, but i can assure you that there is NO WAY a gm has access to a) your characters b) your account info, only KK has that, and kk dont employ assholes.......mostly also gm's are ENTIRELY INCAPABLE OF BANNING YOUR ACCOUNT OR DELETING YOUR CHARS, only kk have access to that and gm's cannot even request it.
If you could prove any of this then please send it to KK im sure Carbonite will deal with it exactly as i know he would, the way he deals with everything else, thoroughly, if you can't then why even bother mentioning it? i realise that you may in fact hate the game, but unless you prove your attacks and allegations then you just look bitter, i for one would love to see these 'rogue gms' brought to justice, but again if you cant prove this, then your just mouthing off trying to dis the game, the point is unless people are willing to turn people in then its a useless system, reading logs of EVERY gm, and EVERY action takes forever, and unless people report things then things can be missed, you may infact speak the truth kriminal99. but unless you can back it up you look as i said, bitter.
I dont mean to make this an attack soley on you, there are many people making unfounded alegations in this thread, and tbh i dont see why the hell im even bothering with some of them, but i thought i'd clear a few things up.
To my knowledge the only way a GM can remove your items from you is they log in on your character (from reading thier in game forums). Only KK employees can do that.
Normal GMs are gimped in what they can do. They aren't even allowed appear visibly to players except under certain conditions.
There have been a large number of incidents where peoples accounts got hacked, HOWEVER most if not all were traced back to people having thier hotmail accounts socially hacked. Prehaps that is what happened to you?
Actually I left the game 6 months ago
which means you are basing your whole arguments on things that happened at least six months ago.
Btw, words are very subjective. One mans powergamer is another mans exploiter.
Hey Oath. The Item stealing event I was speaking of was back in the day long before gms actions were logged. Yes it did happen. A 5 Slot CS I got from a pvp match was taken from me according to the gm because "it may have been duped" Yet not only did the player not get in any type of trouble, but she also had the weapon back and bragged to her friend that the gm gave it back to her.
My problem is with the system. Unlike KK I can see that the weakest link in this messed up chain of events is the system. A better GM system, rule system, and system of communicating with customers needs to be put into place. How do you know that accusations you have made have been investigated properly? They do not tell the players the results, they simply claim they "will look into it", and nothing ever happens to the people responsible. This claim may be enough to reassure you, but I am not so naive especially when I can clearly tell from the gms actions what they know they can get away with and what they cannot.
Where do you get this silliness about gms not having access to characters etc? Whenever I have had a bug problem GM's are the ones to deal with them. They have logged in as my character before to fix problems. They are the ones who SOLELY DETERMINE if you should be banned or not. That is what I mean. GMS can request such action be taken, and HAVE told me to delete my own characters before or else they would do it whatever that meant exactly... (although I bitched him out and made him realize he was wrong)
Oath the main point here is the system in place is crap and could easily be made better.
Originally posted by Fean The original post in this thread is a typical example of a german powergamer. While KK, Neocron, and it's whole german playerbase is probably alike, Kriminal here is the one who carries it outside, because he's a whiner.
Yes, a whiner. The typical german MMO player is a guy whos parents pay the accounts (mostly 2, because they need mules, or whatever) and who plays ALL day. He has no friends, other than ingame people who he needs to level faster. Whenever anything is getting complicated, they blame it on others, mostly on the company that makes the game, or the game itself. And they don't just tell 1 or 2 friends 'Hey, this sucks, im out.' - No, they run around on message boards across the globe, trying to tell everyone their biased bullshit.
Not all germans are that retarded though, I am probably one of the better examples Oh just a little addition because it just popped in my mind - On the german Neocron boards they found my site, which has a game database aswell, they told everyone to vote Neocron 10, and guess what? about 150 people did it.. I don't give a crap because if 150 people think it's 10, then so be it, but it's another typical german thing..
Oo We have a winner!!! Most intelligent post of the day!!! Actually I am American. I moved out of my house at 18 and have paid my way through college up to this point. I post on forums because I like to spread superior ideas. If I am wrong about something I want to know. If I am right then people will deny it on here and then think about it then realize I'm right then have the same ideas I had from that point on. Debating things raises the general knowledge and intelligence of everyone involved...
P.S. To both everyone here arguing with all the people citing instances of gm abuse, what exactly do you mean when you say "baseless acusations" These posts are regarding experiences. People who have experienced these things cannot give their experiences to people who havent. Outside readers can only judge motivations. Why would so many people be complaining about gm abuse if it didn't actually happen? And I don't mean just here I mean all the people who complained about it before it was made so you could not talk about it on the forums? What legitimate reason could KK possibly have for not allowing it to be talked about?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Hey Oath. The Item stealing event I was speaking of was back in the day long before gms actions were logged.
The point you are missing is you are always talking in the past tense.
Yes there have been corrupt GM's, but they have been removed and a large number of changes were put in place to stop people from exploiting thier position again. They learn from thier mistakes and changed it. The fact you fail to know this and cite it as a given suggests that you are hardly a person to give a balanced review on the game.
The game is not the same game you played so long ago.
Yes many people were banned at one point for ducking behind cover by a or more than one gm. They believed that you should have to run out into the open then shoot monsters then run back to heal instead which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard yet they banned people for it. At another time people got in trouble for even doing this in MC5
LOL. Total BS. People were banned from MC5 because they were using a clipping bug so the monsters could not target them. They ended up removing the cover people were using because so many people started exploiting the clipping bug.
The point you are missing is you are always talking in the past tense.
Yes there have been corrupt GM's, but they have been removed and a large number of changes were put in place to stop people from exploiting thier position again. They learn from thier mistakes and changed it. The fact you fail to know this and cite it as a given suggests that you are hardly a person to give a balanced review on the game.
The game is not the same game you played so long ago.
LOL. Total BS. People were banned from MC5 because they were using a clipping bug so the monsters could not target them. They ended up removing the cover people were using because so many people started exploiting the clipping bug.
Yes that happened in the past tense. Nothing they have done has reduced the ability of their volunteer gms to do this kind of thing if they wanted. They do not have to be able to spawn and delete items without being caught to screw up the game for everyone. They are perfectly capable of killing people with weapons even in invisible mode. This would not be logged. They can and do threaten people to get them to do whatever they want. They can lie to KK and twist situations which they do. All in All the ability to spawn items or not is not important to what I am talking about. And btw its not like WE have access to the logs to check if a gm is doing something wrong or not. They just tell us that "they are logged" which could very well just be bs to get people to stop worrying about all the screwed up things they allow their gms to do.
Nothing is in place to stop them from camping mc5 with super characters when noone is on. We have no clue what OTHER kind of powers gms have. Invisible mode? Ability to access other peoples cabinets without making a sound? Ability to buy items from npcs for free? Who knows. Just think about how many unexpected ways players come up with to take advantage of game mechanics, and then think about what could be done with whatever extra powers gms have.
And do not give me this "oh the game has changed in 6 months bs" I played the game for a very long time. I know the attitudes of the people involved. I was there when all signifigant changes were made regarding gms. And I have followed the game since through friends and the forum. Nothing has changed.
By "clipping bug" I suppose you mean using cover. Yes the programmers purposely made it so that they point your weapon fire originates from and the point on your body enemy fire snaps to are not the same. This way you can hide behind cover and not get hit without the enemy repositioning hisself. Sometimes for some reason the enemy will not be able to find away to get around to you because of bad AI. If this is what you mean by "clipping bug" (I fail to see where the bug is) then you are proving my point exactly. Gms go around banning people for this when it was a valid tactic created by the designers of the game. Do you know how easy it would be for them to make weapons fire snap to same point on the body where weapons fire originates from? (thereby eliminating this tactic despite that it is a real tactic used by swat team members and military personnel)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Originally posted by Kriminal99 Yes that happened in the past tense. Nothing they have done has reduced the ability of their volunteer gms to do this kind of thing if they wanted.
So you have changed from they are all using thier powers for corruption to they have no powers but they are still corrupt.
They do not have to be able to spawn and delete items without being caught to screw up the game for everyone. They are perfectly capable of killing people with weapons even in invisible mode. This would not be logged. They can and do threaten people to get them to do whatever they want.
GMs using weapons is in fact logged, as is thier location when using it. Everything a GM does is logged. They could threaten you, but hey thats logged too. Killing a runner visible or not is also logged. Accepting items from runners or picking up stuff and equipping it is logged.
They can lie to KK and twist situations which they do.
Who is they? all of them? some of them? one of them? If they lie then you can send in your logs and also have it examined by an independant group (mainly kk). If you think that KK are all corrupt, well there is nothing more to discuss with you.
And btw its not like WE have access to the logs to check if a gm is doing something wrong or not. They just tell us that "they are logged" which could very well just be bs to get people to stop worrying about all the screwed up things they allow their gms to do.
Certain GMs have been banned for corruption. This we have already said. It goes without saying that others may be in the future. But that does not equate to all are corrupt.
Nothing is in place to stop them from camping mc5 with super characters when noone is on.
First up, an FC was in fact caught doing that a long time ago. They got seriously spanked for it.
We have no clue what OTHER kind of powers gms have.
Some can shoot laser beams from thier eyes I hear. :roll:
Apart from KK employees GMs in game can only teleport, turn invisible (not allowed become visible unless there is reason to). They can teleport other runners (but not allowed to do so without reason). They cannot spawn items (or make them in game as far as I know), they can certainly play the game to get items but seeing as those actions are logged they will probably be asked to explain themselves.
You sound like you have a persecution complex.
And do not give me this "oh the game has changed in 6 months bs" I played the game for a very long time. I know the attitudes of the people involved. I was there when all signifigant changes were made regarding gms. And I have followed the game since through friends and the forum. Nothing has changed.
A lot has changed. As I said claiming that GMs have super powers now when they don't seems to prove you don't know what is going on in game at the moment. You are not a person who can give a valid review of the current gameplay and I stick by that.
By "clipping bug" I suppose you mean using cover.
That is absolutly nothing to do with why people were banned.
Yes there was cover, it was a glass window that people were jumping onto the top of it which would push thier body out through the roof and stop AI from being able to target them while they could shoot back with full safety. Called a "Clipping bug"
They didn't have to move just shoot. The normal people who used it as cover still got shot at (the mob would walk around the corner).
It was the "powergamers" who whined when the cover was removed because their easy exploit was gone. It had nothing to do with non-LOF based weapons or third person mode.
So you have changed from they are all using thier powers for corruption to they have no powers but they are still corrupt. GMs using weapons is in fact logged, as is thier location when using it. Everything a GM does is logged. They could threaten you, but hey thats logged too. Killing a runner visible or not is also logged. Accepting items from runners or picking up stuff and equipping it is logged.
Who is they? all of them? some of them? one of them? If they lie then you can send in your logs and also have it examined by an independant group (mainly kk). If you think that KK are all corrupt, well there is nothing more to discuss with you. Certain GMs have been banned for corruption. This we have already said. It goes without saying that others may be in the future. But that does not equate to all are corrupt. First up, an FC was in fact caught doing that a long time ago. They got seriously spanked for it. Some can shoot laser beams from thier eyes I hear. :roll: Apart from KK employees GMs in game can only teleport, turn invisible (not allowed become visible unless there is reason to). They can teleport other runners (but not allowed to do so without reason). They cannot spawn items (or make them in game as far as I know), they can certainly play the game to get items but seeing as those actions are logged they will probably be asked to explain themselves. You sound like you have a persecution complex. A lot has changed. As I said claiming that GMs have super powers now when they don't seems to prove you don't know what is going on in game at the moment. You are not a person who can give a valid review of the current gameplay and I stick by that.
By "clipping bug" I suppose you mean using cover.
That is absolutly nothing to do with why people were banned.
Yes there was cover, it was a glass window that people were jumping onto the top of it which would push thier body out through the roof and stop AI from being able to target them while they could shoot back with full safety. Called a "Clipping bug"
They didn't have to move just shoot. The normal people who used it as cover still got shot at (the mob would walk around the corner).
It was the "powergamers" who whined when the cover was removed because their easy exploit was gone. It had nothing to do with non-LOF based weapons or third person mode.
to your first statement- No oO where did you get that from? I said I know that not all gms can spawn stuff that doesn't mean they can't cause everyone trouble.
What the heck are you talking about ALL gms actions are logged. Noone ever said any gms actions other than spawning items, in fact many people have said specifically they are NOT. Not that YOU know even if their item spawning is logged, although I believe it probably is. Only thing is for all we know gms could be allowed to help their friends or steal items as long as they don't do anything to obvious or against the majority of people.
Im saying that gms words are paid attention to much more than players. They means some gms.... was that not obvious... Who said all gms thats as impossible as no gms being perfect.
Yes that FC was not caught by KK mind you, a player just happened to wander in there and complain. I would go so far to say that the only reason he got in trouble was because it became a huge thing on the forum and a ton of people got really mad about it. Now they probably would have just ignored the persons complaints to them about it. If I see something like that in game I sure as hell would want to complain about it on the forums with other players.
What makes you think you have any clue what the gms can do? I know damn well that some of them can spawn items. I know they can log in to other peoples characters maybe with help of kk but they can. We know they can tweak their own stats. They can shoot people in invisible mode and I am pretty sure it is not logged. Most importantly they can say people did things they didn't do and vice versa.
Youve admitted that the gms can and HAVE done some things that are pretty screwed up. I didnt say anything about superpowers. Youve admitted everything that I have said is true about things gms have done. All I am saying is some gms are corrupted as far as not doing what the PLAYERS (not KK) considers right. And with any powers of all that puts the integrity of the game at risk
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
I said I know that not all gms can spawn stuff that doesn't mean they can't cause everyone trouble. ... I know damn well that some of them can spawn items. I know they can log in to other peoples characters maybe with help of kk but they can.
You are starting to contridict yourself. Either you know what GMs can do or you don't. Only KK employees can log into player accounts and spawn items.
What the heck are you talking about ALL gms actions are logged. Noone ever said any gms actions other than spawning items,
If you bothered to read the neocron forums instead of flaming them you would of read that ALL GM actions are NOW logged. Every action they make is logged.
Not that YOU know even if their item spawning is logged, although I believe it probably is.
So I don't know but you believe it is? I fail to follow your logic. KK have said all actions are logged.
Yes that FC was not caught by KK mind you, a player just happened to wander in there and complain.
Yes this was back when actions were not logged. FC's are not allowed do that. If they do they get banned. Just because someone was able to do it what... 6 months ago doesn't mean they can now.
What makes you think you have any clue what the gms can do?
Because they have caught GMs through logging incidents and banned them for thier Actions. In fact you know yourself there is a list of current and past GM's within the NC site that you can check.
They can shoot people in invisible mode and I am pretty sure it is not logged. Most importantly they can say people did things they didn't do and vice versa.
Shooting while invisible (which is needed for some events like the Bat plague one recently) is logged, as is peoples conversations. While a player may be able to doctor their logs a GM can't as they are stored server side.
Youve admitted that the gms can and HAVE done some things that are pretty screwed up.
No I admitted SOME GMs have misbehaved and been banned for it. That does not mean the whole system is corrupted that you are making it out to be. I will repeat again. Your information is dated, so you are hardly a valid source of how the game is currently.
I said I know that not all gms can spawn stuff that doesn't mean they can't cause everyone trouble. ... I know damn well that some of them can spawn items. I know they can log in to other peoples characters maybe with help of kk but they can.
You are starting to contridict yourself. Either you know what GMs can do or you don't. Only KK employees can log into player accounts and spawn items.
What the heck are you talking about ALL gms actions are logged. Noone ever said any gms actions other than spawning items,
If you bothered to read the neocron forums instead of flaming them you would of read that ALL GM actions are NOW logged. Every action they make is logged.
Not that YOU know even if their item spawning is logged, although I believe it probably is.
So I don't know but you believe it is? I fail to follow your logic. KK have said all actions are logged.
Yes that FC was not caught by KK mind you, a player just happened to wander in there and complain.
Yes this was back when actions were not logged. FC's are not allowed do that. If they do they get banned. Just because someone was able to do it what... 6 months ago doesn't mean they can now.
What makes you think you have any clue what the gms can do?
Because they have caught GMs through logging incidents and banned them for thier Actions. In fact you know yourself there is a list of current and past GM's within the NC site that you can check.
They can shoot people in invisible mode and I am pretty sure it is not logged. Most importantly they can say people did things they didn't do and vice versa.
Shooting while invisible (which is needed for some events like the Bat plague one recently) is logged, as is peoples conversations. While a player may be able to doctor their logs a GM can't as they are stored server side.
Youve admitted that the gms can and HAVE done some things that are pretty screwed up.
No I admitted SOME GMs have misbehaved and been banned for it. That does not mean the whole system is corrupted that you are making it out to be. I will repeat again. Your information is dated, so you are hardly a valid source of how the game is currently.
Ok genius heres a lesson in logic for you. If I say Not All A can do B, and then I say Some A can do B, that is not contradicting myself... The higher up gms can STILL spawn items and all gms can log into your account I know this first hand from way after the changes were made (maybe they needed permission maybe not). What even makes you think you have any idea what you are talking about? Have you even played neocron before?
I think I would have heard if all gms actions were now logged perhaps you want to provide a link to the thread about it? In fact this seems very unlikely as I we suggested this at one point and KK specifically said this would take way too many resources. Most likely you are lying about this being said or they were lying about doing it. Not that it really makes a difference. The point is the players are not the ones who decide what is right and wrong as far as punishment goes and the people who do decide are just plain stupid. Maybe they just say they log them or maybe they log them but ALLOW their gms to do all kinds of things some players would be pissed about.
As long as they let their VOLUNTEER GMS (often antiamerican, some carebear some of them hardcore pvpers) act as judge, jury and executioner the game is going to be screwed up. The problem is their system is stupid. Other games may have unworthy people who decide who gets in trouble and what for in their customer service department, but this is nowhere near as bad as having volunteers of the street with no interest in the company and who act only based on their own convaluted ideas in charge of policing the game.
Here we go with the poor logic skills again. First I said how do you KNOW that gms actions are logged. Then I said I believe it PROBABLY is. This is not a contradiction. The point is just because KK said it is doesn't mean it is for sure. I think it probably is because Im sure they want to keep some control over them, even if its not in the interest of the players.
As you yourself have said I believe, KK does not check logs unless they have a reason to. What their reasons might be to check a log we have no idea. I have heard of plenty of times where single people I know have complained about a gm cheating and doing things unfair and nothing was ever done- AFTER they started logging. Just because KK has internal logs and has internal control has nothing to do with the consumers interests. And the only reason I speak of this is because everyone is STILL having screwed up encounters with gms.
What does a list of gms or gms being banned before have to do with what powers gms have? And regarding what gms can get away with, like the site says they handle this INTERNALLY. The only time I know of gms getting banned is when 90% of the forum was extremely pissed about somehting a gm did. And now they have suddenly decided it can't be discussed on the forum. Do you really think they did this to protect gms feelings, or do you think they did this so they don't have to retrain gms when everyone finds out they are corrupt? And regardless which is more important the feelings of the people we PAY to get a service or the integrity of the product we recieve?
For the last time where do you get this information about gms OR players actions being logged? They have said repeatedly that logging every action of ANYONE would take far too many resources, I can probably dig up a link to that. I never said EVERYONE in the game is corrupt. The system can be seriously flawed WHICH IT IS which allows the game to be messed up by the gms who are corrupt.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
I have played Neocron longer then you have. I still play Neocron. So who do you think would know more about Neocron? Me or you?
I think I would have heard if all gms actions were now logged perhaps you want to provide a link to the thread about it?
You think you would of heard? You mean like in your very first post where you say (quote) "The company claims that all gm actions are now logged". Sounds like you heard long before I mentioned it.
In fact this seems very unlikely as I we suggested this at one point and KK specifically said this would take way too many resources.
No I believe what you are referring to is item tracking, which they can't do with the current system they have in place. However they can track GM actions (and from what I heard KK can extend this to trouble players who they can tag to see if they are exploiting). But they cannot track items and whos hands they change to after they leave the logged player.
As long as they let their VOLUNTEER GMS (often antiamerican, some carebear some of them hardcore pvpers) act as judge, jury and executioner the game is going to be screwed up.
Ah, the crux of the argument. It looks like you are taking it personal or you have personal issues in relation to GMs. My guess is you have been reported and investigated by a number of GMs for "powergaming" (which GMs call exploiting). I have never known GMs to be anti-(insert country here). If anything they are reverse. Anti-American is normally used as a rebuff to "They don't agree with me". It really has no base in this discussion.
but this is nowhere near as bad as having volunteers of the street with no interest in the company and who act only based on their own convaluted ideas in charge of policing the game.
GMs work to set rules. In order to be a GM you either have to be a KK employee or a long term player in good standing (speaking more then one language helps afair). I am not aware of KK employing people randomly taken off the street unless your talking about the Venus server which is a third party.
First I said how do you KNOW that gms actions are logged. Then I said I believe it PROBABLY is. This is not a contradiction.
The contridictions are you say you believe it now, but imply in your first post it is a lie, then claim I am lying when I repeat what you basically said to begin with. But if you believe it then how could I be lying?
As you yourself have said I believe, KK does not check logs unless they have a reason to. What their reasons might be to check a log we have no idea.
Oh if someone reported a GM through the proper channels they would check the logs. If GM support staff (the ones that watch the GMs) would probably randomly check logs for customer service evaluations. That is pretty standard operation in most support centers.
I have heard of plenty of times where single people I know have complained about a gm cheating and doing things unfair and nothing was ever done- AFTER they started logging.
But didn't you say they aren't logging? Anyway I call BS on that one. I know of at least one GM who was banned for helping friends who was banned because of the logs and not because they were reported by players.
Just because KK has internal logs and has internal control has nothing to do with the consumers interests.
I would of thought the logging of your support staff would be in the consumers interests? No? Why not?
And the only reason I speak of this is because everyone is STILL having screwed up encounters with gms.
Really? How would you know? You don't play the game anymore. Hearsay isn't as good as actually playing the game.
And regardless which is more important the feelings of the people we PAY to get a service or the integrity of the product we recieve?
I agree, and the GMs are there to ensure that each player gets the product fairly. For example do you think a player Explo...powergaming should get the same treatment as players who are playing by the rules of the game?
For the last time where do you get this information about gms OR players actions being logged?
The same place you did.
They have said repeatedly that logging every action of ANYONE would take far too many resources,
No (and to repeat) they said tracking all the items in game took too much resources. however tracking the actions of a handful of GM's is easy. But I could be wrong, dig up that link.
I never said EVERYONE in the game is corrupt. The system can be seriously flawed WHICH IT IS which allows the game to be messed up by the gms who are corrupt.
Again you say "to be messed up by the gms who are corrupt." which implys all GMs. Or if we look at your first post you say " GM's have been known throughout the course of the game to spawn items for their friends and give them unfair advantages etc.". Again you imply all GMs you don't say "Some GMs". You make it out as if every GM is totally screwing the game up when that accusation is not even based on reality.
I also noticed you changed your first post. Obviously to try and prove a point. A few rebuttals.
There will be no rollback for character values lost during events, official or otherwise. It is the player's responsibility to ensure that only valid targets are selected. If in doubt the player should not take offensive action against NPCs or other runners"
What this means (and was said directly here up until recently) Is that a gm can arbitrarilly rollback your character destroying your effort put into the game simply because you piss him off.
Unless the whole concept of English has changed it actually means they cannot rollback your character.
They only rollback if there are server issues or a bugged player. They used to roll back due to bugs in players but a lot of "powergamers" used that method to dupe their items by handing them off to their friends. What you quoted was a warning to the players to avoid loosing items.
Intentionally misleading or deceiving Reakktor Media GmbH or a member of the support staff in any way will result in a temporary, or in extreme cases, permanent ban of the game account or accounts."
If this doesn't make it crystal clear that they feel they have the right to ban their customers for just about anything then go ahead and play but don't say I didn't warn you.
Again your grasp of the English language never ceases to amaze me. What they said was you intentionally lie to a KK employee or GM and you get banned. Name me any other MMORPG were they don't have this rule.
Spamming = saying anything gms don't like
No spamming is posting the same stuff over and over in a channel or not using the channel as intended when there are others trying to use it. Every incident I have seen where a GM has asked them to stop it is normally the ones that tell the GM to "stfu" (sic) that get banned.
Turrets: Nevermind that some turrets like artillary turrets were DESIGNED to go on top of outpost walls. SHows that the head doesn't know what the tail is doing
The turrets were never designed to go up on top of the outpost walls. I don't know where you got that idea from? Apart from the fact that the walls are too thin (if you want to maintain a RP context). Sounds like you got caught doing it.
Copying NAMEs: If you have a similar name to someone else by coincidence or even if they copied your name and a gm is friends or likes the other person you will be made to change your name.
The general rule is the older player gets preference. 99% of the time the copied name is something like "player " or "player." who people then use to steal stuff from others. What you would call "powergaming" I guess.
Or you died and are waiting for a LE friend to ressurect you. etc...
Refusing to leave a dungeon so it will respawn is a banning offense. If the person is harrassing you to get you killed while LE'ed then you should report them. The only reason it is an issue with LE players is because the other players can't kill you for being a dickhead (not you personally the LE player).
And again you are showing how little you know about the game since you left. They long since removed the exploit where dead LE players could stop a dungeon from respawning.
Copbots + NPC's: If you attack an Npc you could be banned even though they are all over the place in the way and much stronger than players in terms of damage done and taken.
I love how you misquote it. They are talking about levelling your CON the easy way (exploiting, whoops powergaming). They say nothing about banning people for killing NPCs and only guards are actually stronger then most players. All other NPCs are easy to kill.
I have played Neocron longer then you have. I still play Neocron. So who do you think would know more about Neocron? Me or you? You think you would of heard? You mean like in your very first post where you say (quote) "The company claims that all gm actions are now logged". Sounds like you heard long before I mentioned it.
No I believe what you are referring to is item tracking, which they can't do with the current system they have in place. However they can track GM actions (and from what I heard KK can extend this to trouble players who they can tag to see if they are exploiting). But they cannot track items and whos hands they change to after they leave the logged player.
Ah, the crux of the argument. It looks like you are taking it personal or you have personal issues in relation to GMs. My guess is you have been reported and investigated by a number of GMs for "powergaming" (which GMs call exploiting). I have never known GMs to be anti-(insert country here). If anything they are reverse. Anti-American is normally used as a rebuff to "They don't agree with me". It really has no base in this discussion.
GMs work to set rules. In order to be a GM you either have to be a KK employee or a long term player in good standing (speaking more then one language helps afair). I am not aware of KK employing people randomly taken off the street unless your talking about the Venus server which is a third party. The contridictions are you say you believe it now, but imply in your first post it is a lie, then claim I am lying when I repeat what you basically said to begin with. But if you believe it then how could I be lying?
Oh if someone reported a GM through the proper channels they would check the logs. If GM support staff (the ones that watch the GMs) would probably randomly check logs for customer service evaluations. That is pretty standard operation in most support centers.
But didn't you say they aren't logging? Anyway I call BS on that one. I know of at least one GM who was banned for helping friends who was banned because of the logs and not because they were reported by players.
I would of thought the logging of your support staff would be in the consumers interests? No? Why not?
Really? How would you know? You don't play the game anymore. Hearsay isn't as good as actually playing the game.
I agree, and the GMs are there to ensure that each player gets the product fairly. For example do you think a player Explo...powergaming should get the same treatment as players who are playing by the rules of the game?
The same place you did.
No (and to repeat) they said tracking all the items in game took too much resources. however tracking the actions of a handful of GM's is easy. But I could be wrong, dig up that link.
Again you say "to be messed up by the gms who are corrupt." which implys all GMs. Or if we look at your first post you say " GM's have been known throughout the course of the game to spawn items for their friends and give them unfair advantages etc.". Again you imply all GMs you don't say "Some GMs". You make it out as if every GM is totally screwing the game up when that accusation is not even based on reality. I also noticed you changed your first post. Obviously to try and prove a point. A few rebuttals.
Unless the whole concept of English has changed it actually means they cannot rollback your character. They only rollback if there are server issues or a bugged player. They used to roll back due to bugs in players but a lot of "powergamers" used that method to dupe their items by handing them off to their friends. What you quoted was a warning to the players to avoid loosing items.
Again your grasp of the English language never ceases to amaze me. What they said was you intentionally lie to a KK employee or GM and you get banned. Name me any other MMORPG were they don't have this rule.
No spamming is posting the same stuff over and over in a channel or not using the channel as intended when there are others trying to use it. Every incident I have seen where a GM has asked them to stop it is normally the ones that tell the GM to "stfu" (sic) that get banned.
The turrets were never designed to go up on top of the outpost walls. I don't know where you got that idea from? Apart from the fact that the walls are too thin (if you want to maintain a RP context). Sounds like you got caught doing it.
The general rule is the older player gets preference. 99% of the time the copied name is something like "player " or "player." who people then use to steal stuff from others. What you would call "powergaming" I guess.
Refusing to leave a dungeon so it will respawn is a banning offense. If the person is harrassing you to get you killed while LE'ed then you should report them. The only reason it is an issue with LE players is because the other players can't kill you for being a dickhead (not you personally the LE player). And again you are showing how little you know about the game since you left. They long since removed the exploit where dead LE players could stop a dungeon from respawning.
I love how you misquote it. They are talking about levelling your CON the easy way (exploiting, whoops powergaming). They say nothing about banning people for killing NPCs and only guards are actually stronger then most players. All other NPCs are easy to kill.
Uh no you havent played neocron longer than I... When did I even say how long I played neocron for? Anyways this is irrelevant because you obviously have bias and your methods of arguing show that you do not put them aside in favor of coming to a correct conclusion.
I was referring to their GM actions like spawning items. Killing someone is not a GM action. Obviously you did not take this to mean that them walking from point a to b was logged somehow? The only action that gms say is logged on the forums is spawning items.
LOL no I wasn't talking about tracking items. I was talking about something a company rep said in response to the issue of tracking gm movements and shooting players on the forum a little while back. But you make a good point in my favor, if they could track everything gms did then how the hell could they be unable to deal with item loss... Unless they just didn't give a shit. Either way my point is made. If they are unable to track items, then whats to stop a gm from creating all kinds of items normally with tweaked construction values etc. They are going to get a gm just based on him futzing around with his skill values?
The crux of my argument is everything here. Someones motivation for an argument is a different story. I could of told you that my reason for being irritated at them is that they treat customers like crap and don't want other people to have to deal with it. Its up to people to read the information I present and determine if they will likely encounter the same problems.
No I have never gotten in trouble. I have been threatened several times by gms for rediculous reasons. Once I got teleported to darkmetal, threatened, and the gm attempted to intimidate me into deleting my character simlpy because I killed one of his friends and then ran away from the rest who were much higher level before they could get me. He claimed he saw my charcater warp, a common occurence due to lag and the poor nature of the network code at the time, so I MUST have been using a speed hack Then I was cursed out in Private messages from other gms because I was complaining about how rediculous that was. Then a company rep insulted me on the forum in order to keep his gms from quitting for not getting their immature vindication. All of this for just playing the game.
As far as antiamerican, carebear and hardcore pvper gms, of course it has a place in this discussion . They have absolutely NO motivation to remain objective and have way to much power. Which means whatever convaluted ideas, predjudices whatever they have are institutionalized against the customer. And yes these ideas have been demonstrated among their gms before at least once each or I wouldn't have mentioned them.
The GM's I am speaking of are not the company reps I mean the volunteers from the game populace. They each have their own ideas about how things should be and when you put them in power yet do not force them to be objective their power becomes a way for them to enforce their silly ideas.
ok aqua... here we go... I am not claiming you are lying that gm actions are logged, I am claiming you are lying that you know gm actions are logged. I didn't say in my first post that I thoguht they were lying, I was implying that they do it for their own purposes not the benefit of the customer.
How do you know they would check the logs if someone complained through their rediculous channels? What makes you think they would take action against gms for things that the player would consider unfair instead of just themselves not liking it? A reason why I am here is because people have made legitimate comlpaints against gms through proper channels were gms have done very unfair things and nothing has happened.
No I didn't ever say they weren't really logging I was saying they are doing it for their own reasons. If you are telling the truth about the gm being banned by logs all that says is they have things they themselves don't want gms doing. who was this gm btw? Anyways the point is they never come out and say "we think its ok if our gms do this or that so we arent going to punish them" They completely leave the customers out of the loop. Thats probably because they know damn well that some of the things tehy allow their gms to do would piss off players and scare of new players.
Internal logs are not in the consumer interest unless they are used to further the consumers interest. If they are only used to further the companies interest then they are of no benefit to the consumer...
Whats wrong with heresay? This isn't a freaking courtroom... I can tell if someone is telling the truth about an experience with a gm by the way they tell it. If I tell you there is no difference weather I claim to have experienced it myself (which I did when I still played not that long ago) or if someone else told me and I concluded by the way they said it they were telling the truth(also the case). Either way readers still have to read what I say and determine if it is likely true for themselves...
To the question regarding powergamers- Powergamers ARE playing by the rules of the game, they just analyze the boundaries of the game to find the fastest way. Punishing powergamers is the equivalent of beating people up for being smarter than you.. (something germans have a history of doing...ok sorry cheap shot)
The line between exploiting and powergaming is a thin one, and imo even in the case of exploiting it is the companies own damn fault for not designing the game better. If I ever found an mmorpg there will be no such thing as exploiting, although whatever measures necesarry for damage control will be taken. Hacking is another story... But the point here is KK punishes people simply for doing what is clearly powergaming.
Ok you got info that gms actions are logged at the same place I did so the next question is how do you know they aren't lying for sure? Im just making a point that you take everything KK says as straight from the mouth of god. They might not give a crap at all what customers think about what is fair or not fair...
No I wasn't implying All gms.. Perhaps if I had highlighted "are" you would get what I meant? As in "I never said EVERYONE in the game is corrupt. The system can be seriously flawed WHICH IT IS which allows the game to be messed up by the gms who ->ARE<- corrupt. " Sorry a little ambiguity there I guess...
OMG LOL... No that quote is not talking about Items lost in events due to server instability. Its saying that if you shoot a gm or participant in an event a gm will roll back your "character values" so that you can no longer do damage... Read it again... "Its up to a player to select valid targets" What does that have to do with item loss??
This is exactly my point when I keep saying "how do you know?", you didn't even understand what that was saying and you started popping off about gms only doing fair things!! What makes you think you have any clue what you are talking about? Or do you not care and are only trying to create an illusion?
My translation of the misleading employees bit was made to point out that they can interpret this rule to allow them to ban anyone they feel like by claiming you were lying about something and probably do given their disposition. I HOPE other companies with similar rules stipulate that it means if you lie with the intention of gaining an unfair advantage or harming another customer....
I know what the textbook definition of spamming is, my point is this rule allows the gms to ban anyone if they want to. WHICH YOU POINT OUT BY SAYING THAT TELLING A GM TO STFU IS MORE LIKELY TO GET YOU BANNED THEN REPEATEDLY SPAMMING ON ITS OWN. Gms are volunteers, for crying out loud we have this problem in real life with police because they aren't paid ENOUGH. Gms aren't paid at all. Wheres their motivation to remain objective? Not a complicated argument here...
I got that the artillary turrets were made to go on walls from a discussion when they were implented with kk people involved on the forum. What you thought artillary turrets were supposed to sit on the floor inside the base and hit stuff on the way arcing up words? They were always placed on the walls back when they were first implemented, thats the only intellegent place TO put artillery turrets....
The name thing isn't limited to tradeskillers. Yes that is an example of somehting they should devise a way to fix rather than punish customers. I would never do it but they specifically say on the forums its up to the player to be careful who they give their items to. The name rule goes with their own poorly devised idea of how the system should go. Rather than devise a better plan they just try and destroy anything that doesn't allow it to work. But this isn't the only application of the name rule.
LE in dungeon thing- You might have an excuse for punishing a customer rather than just devising a better system if they had some way to detect that a player was purposely sabotaging a dungeon from respawning by not leaving. But they have no way to detect if that is the players intention. You could just be finishing off the last mob and people could be lie about it because they want the viper king to respawn or whatever. This is a rediculous rule. Yes I know they made it so dead players dont keep it from being respawned a few months ago, I just forgot. It doesn't make a difference to my point.
You level your con anytime you are shot. that means if you attack a guard you could be accused of leveling your con. And YES ITS FREAKING REDICULOUS THAT THIS IS A RULE, ITS NOT EXPLOITING ITS POWERGAMING. You die when you attack copbots and guards and it doesn't let you level that fast Ive done it before... Do you realize how many things can get you banned between all these rules now? Can you say heavy foot of KK?
The point is the rules give gms many many tools to inflict their views on other players and nothing is in place to make them remain objective. My description of each rule is to point out the worst case scenario that each rule allows that have probably all happened before, many of which I KNOW has happened before
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
First up if you are going to reply, don't just quote the whole previous post. It makes your posts harder to read and just clutters up the whole post.
Uh no you havent played neocron longer than I... When did I even say how long I played neocron for?
Easy. In the NC forums. Considering I started around the same time as you and I haven't quit in all that time (where as you have quit a number of times and come back) I have been playing longer then you. The fact that you quit the game and I still play means I am also still playing longer then you are.
Not entirely sure where you are coming with the bias comment. If you mean I am bias against exploiters (who call themselves powergamers) or people who have no clue about the game then yes I suppose I do. Of course I didn't come into this argument totally blind. I did read up a lot on what you have gotten up to (again the NC forums. Aren't they great).
I was referring to their GM actions like spawning items. Killing someone is not a GM action. Obviously you did not take this to mean that them walking from point a to b was logged somehow? The only action that gms say is logged on the forums is spawning items.
As has been said numerous times all GM actions are logged.
LOL no I wasn't talking about tracking items. I was talking about something a company rep said in response to the issue of tracking gm movements and shooting players on the forum a little while back. But you make a good point in my favor, if they could track everything gms did then how the hell could they be unable to deal with item loss...
Well I am getting a bit bored repeating myself over and over for you. Either you aren't reading anything or your just skipping over the parts which seem to point you out as wrong.
So again for you... 1. They track GMs actions because there are few of them. They can see what items they made but not where the items go after they are handed over (but they can see who got them handed to them). 2. They cannot track all items in game. 3. They do not replace lost items, not because it is not possible but because some "powergamers" were using it to dupe and they totally screwed it over for the people who are playing the game. 4. The part you commented earlier (which this piece is about) relates to KK explaining how to avoid loosing items.
They care, but when they have tossers.. sorry "powergamers" cheating in the game to get items it is not KKs fault when they have to stop it. It is the fault of the people who ruined it for others.
Oh and when a GM spawns a item it is not GM quality. I am sure you will have a rebuttal for that but the explanation has been made pages ago (read). They could construct one with skill values but then it won't be any better then a capped constructor and it would have their name plastered all over the item (top quality items are tagged with the constructors name).
I could of told you that my reason for being irritated at them is that they treat customers like crap and don't want other people to have to deal with it. Its up to people to read the information I present and determine if they will likely encounter the same problems.
They don't treat customers like crap. They treat their customers very well, however they may of treated you like crap but anyone joining the game can just do a search on the NC forums to get a feel to why that is.
He claimed he saw my charcater warp, a common occurence due to lag and the poor nature of the network code at the time, so I MUST have been using a speed hack
However there is an exploit that certain powergamers use to warp. I am sure you would know about this as the bug has been in the game since beta. Anyone caught doing it is normally warned then banned. Your whole "the GMs are out to get me" sounds like a one sided baseless argument. Some of the stories posted before (again on the NC forums) where such players as yourself quote such a thing KK would give indepth details as well as logs as to what happened. They only delete/lock the posts now as the person is supposed to report it through the proper channels and 99% of the complaints were completly baseless.
As for insulting you.. must go look for that post. I am sure you aren't telling the whole story either on that. Post a link.
As far as ...
Anti-Americanism has nothing whatsoever to do with this. I never said anything about the others. KK staff have never shown any racism and stamp extremly hard on it both in game and in the forums. Just recently an American player complained he was treated like crap by the French Players on Venus server (french speaking server) because he couldn't speak French. He was asked by KK to give them names and the people in question were warned not to do it again. You would be very hard pressed to point out that KK are racists.
The only Anti they might be is Anti-you.
They each have their own ideas about how things should be and when you put them in power yet do not force them to be objective their power becomes a way for them to enforce their silly ideas.
GMs (all kinds) have to play the game by strict rules. It may of not been the case six or seven months ago but it is most certainly the case now.
I was implying that they do it for their own purposes not the benefit of the customer.
But anything that improves the game is better for the customer is it not?
How do you know they would check the logs if someone complained through their rediculous channels? What makes you think they would take action against gms for things that the player would consider unfair instead of just themselves not liking it? A reason why I am here is because people have made legitimate comlpaints against gms through proper channels were gms have done very unfair things and nothing has happened.
Because they have said they would. Because it is a business and a business doesn't try to intentionally loose its customers despite what some people think. They might get rid of disruptive customers who are causing problems either to their servers or to other players. But what MMORPG out there doesn't do this?
If you are telling the truth about the gm being banned by logs all that says is they have things they themselves don't want gms doing. who was this gm btw?
I am not at liberty to say who the GM was. I am sure they show up in the GMs list though. As for things they don't want them doing? Of course they don't want GM's ruining the game, thats why they have rules in place and do random spot checks.
Internal logs are not in the consumer interest unless they are used to further the consumers interest.
Which in fact they are used to. They check the logs to see how their customers are being treated, how to handle situations, how to train in new employees. All standard help desk stuff.
Whats wrong with heresay?
My friend in game overheard from someone that you routinely cheated and exploited your way through the game and were a general pest to the majority of the players in the game and he said the day you quit no one cared. Of course this is all hearsay.
Powergamers ARE playing by the rules of the game, they just analyze the boundaries of the game to find the fastest way.
Sorry but from what I have read here (and the NC forums) your defination of "powergaming" is exploiting the game mechanics to get a one up on other people in the game. KK don't punish what I call powergamers (those that play within the context of the game). They do stamp down hard on exploiters who do things like use a clipping bug to farm MC5 zone then claim they were only using cover as per the rules of the game.
and imo even in the case of exploiting it is the companies own damn fault for not designing the game better. If I ever found an mmorpg there will be no such thing as exploiting, although whatever measures necesarry for damage control will be taken.
Designing a better game? I do not know of any game out there that doesn't have its issue with exploiters. It has nothing to do with design, as there is nothing a group of people can't think of that can't combat 400-500 people. So you say KK don't do damage control? Like changing the game or rules to stop exploiters (which you then berate them for doing).
Hacking is another story... But the point here is KK punishes people simply for doing what is clearly powergaming.
Give me 3 examples. Heck just give me 1 if you can't get three.
how do you know they aren't lying for sure?
So your whole basis to the argument is you believe they are lying? I don't follow your logic.
No that quote is not talking about Items lost in events due to server instability. Its saying that if you shoot a gm or participant in an event a gm will roll back your "character values" so that you can no longer do damage... Read it again... "Its up to a player to select valid targets" What does that have to do with item loss??
No you read it again. They are saying in the event you totally screw your character up by say going red at an event and having your stuff looted they will not roll back your character. It has absolutly nothing to do with them disabling your character at the event (which a GM can't do and normally teleports you to darkmetal if you are being a total ass).
My translation of the misleading employees bit was made to point out that they can interpret this rule to allow them to ban anyone they feel like by claiming you were lying about something and probably do given their disposition. I HOPE other companies with similar rules stipulate that it means if you lie with the intention of gaining an unfair advantage or harming another customer....
All other MMORPGs have the exact same stipulation. You lie to a game employee or pretend to be one you get banned.
WHICH YOU POINT OUT BY SAYING THAT TELLING A GM TO STFU IS MORE LIKELY TO GET YOU BANNED THEN REPEATEDLY SPAMMING ON ITS OWN.
I love the way you misquote me. I said that after being warned, it is normally the players who then say stfu to the GM get banned. They do not ban players for spamming, they warn them to stop first and normally more then once. Simple enough for you?
I got that the artillary turrets were made to go on walls from a discussion when they were implented with kk people involved on the forum. What you thought artillary turrets were supposed to sit on the floor inside the base and hit stuff on the way arcing up words? They were always placed on the walls back when they were first implemented, thats the only intellegent place TO put artillery turrets....
Again they were never intended to be put on walls. Anyone with an ounce of sense could look at the Outpost walls and say they shouldn't go there. And don't try to twist the argument about putting them into rooms. Outposts are various sizes and most if not all allow placement of turrets out in the open so they can attack people as they come in or are at a high point. Just because you think it is doesn't make it so.
The name thing isn't limited to tradeskillers. Yes that is an example of somehting they should devise a way to fix rather than punish customers. I would never do it but they specifically say on the forums its up to the player to be careful who they give their items to. The name rule goes with their own poorly devised idea of how the system should go. Rather than devise a better plan they just try and destroy anything that doesn't allow it to work. But this isn't the only application of the name rule.
Again. Abusing the name system (ie. exploiting the game mechanics) you are no longer a customer for doing that. You are in fact destroying the game. Again you try to twist with another allowed issue, but as I said your defination of what is allowed is called exploiting.
LE in dungeon thing- You might have an excuse for punishing a customer rather than just devising a better system if they had some way to detect that a player was purposely sabotaging a dungeon from respawning by not leaving. But they have no way to detect if that is the players intention.
Yes they have. Its called the "Page GM" option in the top right of the screen. Boss dungeons do not respawn until people leave (to make them harder to get the items). Your story to claim you were not sabotaging is total BS and a GM would know within 2 minutes of turning up that the person was being disruptive.
You level your con anytime you are shot. that means if you attack a guard you could be accused of leveling your con.
*sigh* I am sure you know the full reasons so this is for other people. Attacking a guard is not exploiting. You will die. If you are low level you will probably gain CON.
Attacking and respawning over and over to level CON by attacking a guard is exploiting as it causes serious problems in the zone you are doing it in to other people in the game. Some spots people do this is at Medicare (heavy player spot) or Outzone station. So please don't go on as if they ban people for attacking guards, far from it.
Do you realize how many things can get you banned between all these rules now? Can you say heavy foot of KK?
and that is so strange considering I have never had any problems with GMs, as have many others. Yourself seems to have had some run ins with GMs yet you were not banned, you quit the game.
For the last time, you quit a long time ago. you are hardly a good reviewer for the game. You can post a reply if you want but you have made it quite clear what kind of player you are and to be honest the game is better without you.
Comments
Your coments have nothing to do with the game.
Self-Deletion.
Edited as offending post was removed.
Edited.
If i didnt then i'd be in violation of MMORPG.com 's rules, some of us follow rules, while others try to be as childish as possible.
BTW, I really have nothing against Danae and I promise not to ever mention anything about her personal life again. She had her own reasons for what she did and you are right, that's not debateable.
Edited as offending post was removed.
word.
I'm not sure what you mean about me logging off early and missing some information when this stuff was happening for quite a long time period (over a few months). And Jarod was a friend of mine, since this concerned him, I don't find the information as second hand. Like I said, for respect of all partied involved, I won't mention any details about the subject. If you think you know me from NC and you think I missed something, email me. I'm sorry that I brought any of this up.
oops
And the definition for an xploit has not changed as long as I've been around...it's still using any bug or fault in the system to gain an unfair advantage over other players...that has not changed...You're whole paragraph about xploits is so full of bs...makes me wonder what you've been banned for...there's optimizing and then there's "optimzing" (hacks etc) the latter will get you banned...and should get you banned...using terrain is not going to get you banned...but hiding inside of something that is obviously not supposed to be hid in...like "magically" slipping inside a piece of terrain or something like that ...common sense here...the name thing...gms aren't gonna ban some dude who picks a name that a GM has as long as he doesn't impersonate said GM...but if they dude is acting like he's a GM to gain things from unwitting players...then yes...he will get banned and should get banned...powergamers have never been banned from NC...UNLESS they do something they know to be illegal
--Dade
Actually I left the game 6 months ago and left several times before that for long periods and came back to check. Those accusations are NOT unfounded, that is WHY they are not allowed on their own forums because the people who run that game want to be able to do whatever they want to the customers and not allow them to communicate this and warn each other. So YES that IS why I am posting it here in hopes that people will be forewarned about the rediculousness, and immaturity of the people that run this game.
I had been following the game for a very long time, and once MYSELF had a gm steal top level equipment for a friend of his that attacked me and lost it in a fair pvp match. I have had gms curse me out, transport me to jails, accuse me of cheating and threaten to erase my character and or ban me simply for defeating their friends in fair pvp. Many other people have had similar experiences and it is something that was complained about up until the point that they figured out they could get away with it simply by not allowing people to talk about it... I did not mention these things before because
supposedly they have cleaned up a bit, but all they have really done is just made an effort to keep this stuff from being as blatantly obvious as it was before. Even way after the gm issue was supposedly fixed, I had a clan of players all use exploits to repeatedly gank a low level character of mine (poison zoning) and then brag about how I couldn't do anything because their friend the gm wouldn't listen to me. And sure enough the gm tried to stonewall me.
The point that talking about their policies is not allowed IS THE WHOLE point of this thread. If their staff was legitimate they wouldn't have to have a rule like that would they? The vast majority of complaints that were made before this rule WERE legitimate. Their very tone in this post shows their inexperience in customer service and buisness in general... Its not our business weather they pay their staff or not, and weather or not people CHOOSE to work for free. That does not give them the right to ruin the game for paying customers by screwing around and doing whatever the heck they want.
I was never Banned from the game. I left... Exploiting a bug in the game which is what the definition was before does not mean attacking enemies from behind cover like swat team members do. Yet gms banned people for this. It does not mean raiding enemy factions with npcs and killing them, yet people were banned for this. Any tactic which actually allowed you to kill or hide from npcs (which are grossly more powerful then players) other than hugely outnumbering them, people got in trouble for. If you raided a underprotected area that was being used for a player store by someone who was friends with a gm, you could get banned. None of these things have anything to do with "exploiting a bug". THere was nothing about "weakness in the game" until recently.
No they dont fix things they don't like by redesigning the game, they just threaten and ban their paying customers for anything they were not able to think of as a possiblity but didn't want to happen.
You speak out of ignorance regarding powergamers my friend. It is easy to say that "they probably knew they shouldn't do that" until some gm singles you out because you are doing something that is perfectly fair and you always thought was allowed. Which I have seen happen to many many people in the game. Luckily in my case all that happened was gms threatening me simply for winning and backed down when I made it clear I had not done anything wrong. This however opened my eyes and I have been seeing it happen to others ever since. Note that GM's don't even agree on what is fair or not, yet THEY are the ones which decide if something is allowed or not. Which means its IMPOSSIBLE to know what is to be considered fair or not. And many gms do not like things which are completely selfish (claiming something is or is not wrong just to help their friends) and or make no sense to anyone but the gm.
I have never cheated (I don't use hax to try and make myself look good in a video game oO) and have not done either one anything I considered to be unfair or anything the people I actually pay my money to have said to be unfair. I decided never to come back when I saw that they changed exploit to basically mean "anything the gms dont like" Which is how it was being handled before anyways but I always figured if something unfair happened I just figured I could get it fixed by talking to the people I actually pay my money too. The only confrontation I have had with gms was regarding false accusations of speed hacks simply for winning (or because their shoddy network code made it look like I was attached to the ceiling or something which happens quite often) Funny that they seem to have no problem flinging false accusations at PAYING CUSTOMERS even as they yell at them for complaining about all the bs and attitude they get from the games staff (volunteer and otherwise)
Yes I quit the game a while ago.... No I am not a pker that goes for "easy kills"... where did that come from? Do you even know my characters in that game? It doesn't really make sense to start out a claim of baselessness with an OBVIOUSLY baseless claim. I have said nothing of who I am in Neocron, how could you possibly know anything about me?
Ill just assume that you heard someone named kriminal99 from the forums was a pker or something in game- This is neither the time or place for a discussion about pvp. No all pvpers are not "newbie gankers". No we don't like easy kills we like pvp to be meaningful something which the game destroyed by putting safeslots and locking quickbelts. What does this have to do with anything?
Anyways it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what is wrong with your statement about people being banned when they are determined to be detrimental to the game. In most societies people have things called "trials" because if they did not people would be lynched every time some mob decided they didn't like something someone did even if the person is in the right and the mob was wrong (Or worse not even a mob just the people in control as is the case in most mmorpgs) - And more importantly weather the person ACTUALLY did anything is not even an issue without a trial because all it takes is the people in control to be irritated.
The point is some games come up with ways to be fair and others do not they just ban or threaten whoever they want to. Neocron falls into the latter category, and "detrimental to society" is not ever an issue because no thought process is utilized to ACCURATELY determine such a thing.
The stuff on the forums I am referring to IS THEIR POLICIES. I am not only talking about their general dealing with forum people. Anyone intelligent can read their policies and realize something is not right... The self contradictions, the propaganda sounding statements etc. Defining an exploit, something which cause a person to lose their investment in the game as vaguely as "a weakness in the game". Talking about how they don't pay their gm staff and because they don't pay them we as paying customers should take it upon ourselves to allow them to walk all over us and do whatever they want so they wont leave... How every statement is worded as if it was an order given by a military superior. Perhaps a younger person or fanboy does not see the problem here but any seasoned consumer or buisnessman either one can see the rediculousness of their attitude.
And I am NOT talking idealistically as in its just screwed up even though there may not be any other way. A consumer knows better because they have gotten better. A good buisnessman knows better because they understand people or have been somewhere where they have seen better tactics of dealing with customers. Unbiasedness and a good attitude are easily aquired when your staff is actually PAID. Honesty and straightforwardness is the best policy. Your customers get pissed at something explain to them you are sorry and that you are doing the best you can to provide a service with the resources you have. Any fool can learn these things working in their local resturaunt or pub for not even a year. These people run their mmorpg with all the charm of a brutal dictators regime...
Specifically every time they introduce a new rule they talk about how "You guys ruined it because you guys did this and YOU GUYS did that" First of all its just plain stupid and unnescessary to place blame on customers for design flaws in the game. Psychologists call this "projection" and most succesful buisnessmen overcome this impulse... Second they are yelling at people not even responsible for what they are yelling about!! Constantly grouping everyone together is equally silly. They get angry and fling their anger at everyone around them equally like a 2 year old throwing a temper tantrum.
Yes gms can probably no longer spawn items but this isn't really what I meant. I was speaking more along the lines of their position as "judge jury and exectuioner" quite a rediculous position for someone who isn't even paid and is doing the job based on "personal reasons" (meaning they wan't to wipe the grin of the face of those stupid carebears, or pkers, or germans, or americans, or whoever they secretly don't like)
About the character rollbacks I was speaking of the combination of A) adding "taking advantage of a weakness" to the definition of exploit,
Giving GM's the power to rollback characters and C) Giving VOLUNTEER gms the unchecked power to determine what are exploits (independent of each others decisions), weather someone is actually guilty of using one, and what to do about it.
Looking back at how gms have handled things in the past, that BOO! rollback scenario is something that is likely to happen to quite a few people.
The forum rules are that way SPECIFICALLY because when they screw up and gms screw over their customers they don't want the customers to be able to tell and warn each other. Anotherwords they are being DISHONEST. Furthermore only the most serious and blatantly obvious complaints (such as gms mass murdering players in invincible mode or camping the highest dungeon with similarly tweaked out characters) are even dealt with when sent in and even then no feedback is given to customers to allow them to know if unfairness is dealt with. Again this is DISHONESTY. They don't tell the customers how they deal with things because they do not want the customers to know when they let things slide that would probably piss the customers off. Obviously if a blatantly cheating GM was fired there would be no reason to let people know the situation has been taken care of.
How do you know complaints are not ignored? They don't tell anyone how anything is dealt with... I know they ARE ignored because I and people I know that have had very screwed up encounters with gms have made complaints and the gms were still there AND with an attitude showing there was no strain on them to act legitimately.
Yes GM's rule is law, THAT is the problem. One day some naive immature person could be verbally sparring with you, the next day they could be a gm banning you. They do not have or use the reasoning capacity to be determining what is fair and is not fair and how it should be dealt with.
Your translation of "powergamer" is EXACTLY my point. The game is based on competion and competition drives peopel for better ways to play the game. Abuse of game mechanics is translated to mean defeating the gms friends fairly. If there is something you think as a developer TRULY unbalances the game you CHANGE it you don't threaten, badger and ban your paying customers.
Yes many people were banned at one point for ducking behind cover by a or more than one gm. They believed that you should have to run out into the open then shoot monsters then run back to heal instead which is the stupidest thing I have ever heard yet they banned people for it. At another time people got in trouble for even doing this in MC5 (the hardest dungeon) because they had not intended for there to be any place to duck behind even to heal. However it turned out that if you went to a certain place the AI could not figure out how to get to you even though it would be obvious and easy to a person. Are players supposed to read the minds of the developers to determine exactly what is and what is not what they intended? Of course not.
I can only imagine what GM's classify as "channel abuse". Also the rules about naming similarities allow GM's to do much more than ban people for item stealing... CON leveling? PLEASE. Where do you draw the line. If you pvp with your friends and take hits is that exploiting? People do this because they need to level their CON. If you Spar with a single friend to level CON is it? Suddenly when you just zap yourself with a friend to heal you this is exploiting? Absolutely rediculous. If they want to change it they DEVISE A MORE INTELLIGENT LEVELING SCHEME. Again badgering your paying customer for your own uninventiveness is absolutely absurd. No Tanks are always going to cap CON last. It takes obscene amounts of exp to cap something that your class specializes in that game and CON just doesn't level that fast normally and there is nothig you can do. I mostly only played the Tank class....
Again you comment on my "playstyle". Assuming you know something about what you are talking about the only thing I can think of is that I always liked to trick people into thinking I had no skills and then completely wiping the floor with them when they least expected it. This is something I have enjoyed doing my entire life specifically BECAUSE it makes people realize that they try and put people down in order to compare to themselves and think better of themselves - That all aggressive acts are done out of fear. Some people don't have the maturity to realize, grow and deal with this as adults and simply try and lie and deny reality and make up bs about me...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Lets get a few things straight, every action a GM performs is logged, for the simple reason that in the past people have abused their power, there have been no cases to my knowledge of what you accuse KK of kriminal99, however im just a player i dont have all the answers.
Gm's are voluntary members of our community, although there is a strict selection process, a few bad eggs can slip through, it's unfair to judge the whole of the Gm community by the actions of a few people who have been removed, the actions you speak of are not difficult to prove should they have actually happened, you realise that no gm has the physical capability to 'steal' items from you? Only members of the KK team 'ie the dev team' have access to your chars, and they are even more closely monitored than Gm's are, i admit i to have made complaints against certain people, more to the point certain clans, i know that there is a large element of mistrust between players and the gm team, but lets remember that the gms are players first and foremost, any and every complaint i ever made has been taken seriously and has been investigated, i've had THE BEST customer services of ANY MMORPG i've ever played, sure the game is a little buggy at times *large understatement i admit*
If your friend had items stolen by a GM, then there are some serious issues, but i can assure you that there is NO WAY a gm has access to a) your characters b) your account info, only KK has that, and kk dont employ assholes.......mostly
also gm's are ENTIRELY INCAPABLE OF BANNING YOUR ACCOUNT OR DELETING YOUR CHARS, only kk have access to that and gm's cannot even request it.
If you could prove any of this then please send it to KK im sure Carbonite will deal with it exactly as i know he would, the way he deals with everything else, thoroughly, if you can't then why even bother mentioning it? i realise that you may in fact hate the game, but unless you prove your attacks and allegations then you just look bitter, i for one would love to see these 'rogue gms' brought to justice, but again if you cant prove this, then your just mouthing off trying to dis the game, the point is unless people are willing to turn people in then its a useless system, reading logs of EVERY gm, and EVERY action takes forever, and unless people report things then things can be missed, you may infact speak the truth kriminal99. but unless you can back it up you look as i said, bitter.
I dont mean to make this an attack soley on you, there are many people making unfounded alegations in this thread, and tbh i dont see why the hell im even bothering with some of them, but i thought i'd clear a few things up.
Peace out homies.
Oath.
To my knowledge the only way a GM can remove your items from you is they log in on your character (from reading thier in game forums). Only KK employees can do that.
Normal GMs are gimped in what they can do. They aren't even allowed appear visibly to players except under certain conditions.
There have been a large number of incidents where peoples accounts got hacked, HOWEVER most if not all were traced back to people having thier hotmail accounts socially hacked. Prehaps that is what happened to you?
which means you are basing your whole arguments on things that happened at least six months ago.
Btw, words are very subjective. One mans powergamer is another mans exploiter.
Hey Oath. The Item stealing event I was speaking of was back in the day long before gms actions were logged. Yes it did happen. A 5 Slot CS I got from a pvp match was taken from me according to the gm because "it may have been duped" Yet not only did the player not get in any type of trouble, but she also had the weapon back and bragged to her friend that the gm gave it back to her.
My problem is with the system. Unlike KK I can see that the weakest link in this messed up chain of events is the system. A better GM system, rule system, and system of communicating with customers needs to be put into place. How do you know that accusations you have made have been investigated properly? They do not tell the players the results, they simply claim they "will look into it", and nothing ever happens to the people responsible. This claim may be enough to reassure you, but I am not so naive especially when I can clearly tell from the gms actions what they know they can get away with and what they cannot.
Where do you get this silliness about gms not having access to characters etc? Whenever I have had a bug problem GM's are the ones to deal with them. They have logged in as my character before to fix problems. They are the ones who SOLELY DETERMINE if you should be banned or not. That is what I mean. GMS can request such action be taken, and HAVE told me to delete my own characters before or else they would do it whatever that meant exactly... (although I bitched him out and made him realize he was wrong)
Oath the main point here is the system in place is crap and could easily be made better.
Oo We have a winner!!! Most intelligent post of the day!!! Actually I am American. I moved out of my house at 18 and have paid my way through college up to this point. I post on forums because I like to spread superior ideas. If I am wrong about something I want to know. If I am right then people will deny it on here and then think about it then realize I'm right then have the same ideas I had from that point on. Debating things raises the general knowledge and intelligence of everyone involved...
P.S. To both everyone here arguing with all the people citing instances of gm abuse, what exactly do you mean when you say "baseless acusations" These posts are regarding experiences. People who have experienced these things cannot give their experiences to people who havent. Outside readers can only judge motivations. Why would so many people be complaining about gm abuse if it didn't actually happen? And I don't mean just here I mean all the people who complained about it before it was made so you could not talk about it on the forums? What legitimate reason could KK possibly have for not allowing it to be talked about?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
The point you are missing is you are always talking in the past tense.
Yes there have been corrupt GM's, but they have been removed and a large number of changes were put in place to stop people from exploiting thier position again. They learn from thier mistakes and changed it. The fact you fail to know this and cite it as a given suggests that you are hardly a person to give a balanced review on the game.
The game is not the same game you played so long ago.
LOL. Total BS. People were banned from MC5 because they were using a clipping bug so the monsters could not target them. They ended up removing the cover people were using because so many people started exploiting the clipping bug.
Yes that happened in the past tense. Nothing they have done has reduced the ability of their volunteer gms to do this kind of thing if they wanted. They do not have to be able to spawn and delete items without being caught to screw up the game for everyone. They are perfectly capable of killing people with weapons even in invisible mode. This would not be logged. They can and do threaten people to get them to do whatever they want. They can lie to KK and twist situations which they do. All in All the ability to spawn items or not is not important to what I am talking about. And btw its not like WE have access to the logs to check if a gm is doing something wrong or not. They just tell us that "they are logged" which could very well just be bs to get people to stop worrying about all the screwed up things they allow their gms to do.
Nothing is in place to stop them from camping mc5 with super characters when noone is on. We have no clue what OTHER kind of powers gms have. Invisible mode? Ability to access other peoples cabinets without making a sound? Ability to buy items from npcs for free? Who knows. Just think about how many unexpected ways players come up with to take advantage of game mechanics, and then think about what could be done with whatever extra powers gms have.
And do not give me this "oh the game has changed in 6 months bs" I played the game for a very long time. I know the attitudes of the people involved. I was there when all signifigant changes were made regarding gms. And I have followed the game since through friends and the forum. Nothing has changed.
By "clipping bug" I suppose you mean using cover. Yes the programmers purposely made it so that they point your weapon fire originates from and the point on your body enemy fire snaps to are not the same. This way you can hide behind cover and not get hit without the enemy repositioning hisself. Sometimes for some reason the enemy will not be able to find away to get around to you because of bad AI. If this is what you mean by "clipping bug" (I fail to see where the bug is) then you are proving my point exactly. Gms go around banning people for this when it was a valid tactic created by the designers of the game. Do you know how easy it would be for them to make weapons fire snap to same point on the body where weapons fire originates from? (thereby eliminating this tactic despite that it is a real tactic used by swat team members and military personnel)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
So you have changed from they are all using thier powers for corruption to they have no powers but they are still corrupt.
GMs using weapons is in fact logged, as is thier location when using it. Everything a GM does is logged. They could threaten you, but hey thats logged too. Killing a runner visible or not is also logged. Accepting items from runners or picking up stuff and equipping it is logged.
Who is they? all of them? some of them? one of them? If they lie then you can send in your logs and also have it examined by an independant group (mainly kk). If you think that KK are all corrupt, well there is nothing more to discuss with you.
Certain GMs have been banned for corruption. This we have already said. It goes without saying that others may be in the future. But that does not equate to all are corrupt.
First up, an FC was in fact caught doing that a long time ago. They got seriously spanked for it.
Some can shoot laser beams from thier eyes I hear. :roll:
Apart from KK employees GMs in game can only teleport, turn invisible (not allowed become visible unless there is reason to). They can teleport other runners (but not allowed to do so without reason). They cannot spawn items (or make them in game as far as I know), they can certainly play the game to get items but seeing as those actions are logged they will probably be asked to explain themselves.
You sound like you have a persecution complex.
A lot has changed. As I said claiming that GMs have super powers now when they don't seems to prove you don't know what is going on in game at the moment. You are not a person who can give a valid review of the current gameplay and I stick by that.
That is absolutly nothing to do with why people were banned.
Yes there was cover, it was a glass window that people were jumping onto the top of it which would push thier body out through the roof and stop AI from being able to target them while they could shoot back with full safety. Called a "Clipping bug"
They didn't have to move just shoot. The normal people who used it as cover still got shot at (the mob would walk around the corner).
It was the "powergamers" who whined when the cover was removed because their easy exploit was gone. It had nothing to do with non-LOF based weapons or third person mode.
That is absolutly nothing to do with why people were banned.
Yes there was cover, it was a glass window that people were jumping onto the top of it which would push thier body out through the roof and stop AI from being able to target them while they could shoot back with full safety. Called a "Clipping bug"
They didn't have to move just shoot. The normal people who used it as cover still got shot at (the mob would walk around the corner).
It was the "powergamers" who whined when the cover was removed because their easy exploit was gone. It had nothing to do with non-LOF based weapons or third person mode.
to your first statement- No oO where did you get that from? I said I know that not all gms can spawn stuff that doesn't mean they can't cause everyone trouble.
What the heck are you talking about ALL gms actions are logged. Noone ever said any gms actions other than spawning items, in fact many people have said specifically they are NOT. Not that YOU know even if their item spawning is logged, although I believe it probably is. Only thing is for all we know gms could be allowed to help their friends or steal items as long as they don't do anything to obvious or against the majority of people.
Im saying that gms words are paid attention to much more than players. They means some gms.... was that not obvious... Who said all gms thats as impossible as no gms being perfect.
Yes that FC was not caught by KK mind you, a player just happened to wander in there and complain. I would go so far to say that the only reason he got in trouble was because it became a huge thing on the forum and a ton of people got really mad about it. Now they probably would have just ignored the persons complaints to them about it. If I see something like that in game I sure as hell would want to complain about it on the forums with other players.
What makes you think you have any clue what the gms can do? I know damn well that some of them can spawn items. I know they can log in to other peoples characters maybe with help of kk but they can. We know they can tweak their own stats. They can shoot people in invisible mode and I am pretty sure it is not logged. Most importantly they can say people did things they didn't do and vice versa.
Youve admitted that the gms can and HAVE done some things that are pretty screwed up. I didnt say anything about superpowers. Youve admitted everything that I have said is true about things gms have done. All I am saying is some gms are corrupted as far as not doing what the PLAYERS (not KK) considers right. And with any powers of all that puts the integrity of the game at risk
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
You are starting to contridict yourself. Either you know what GMs can do or you don't. Only KK employees can log into player accounts and spawn items.
If you bothered to read the neocron forums instead of flaming them you would of read that ALL GM actions are NOW logged. Every action they make is logged. So I don't know but you believe it is? I fail to follow your logic. KK have said all actions are logged. Yes this was back when actions were not logged. FC's are not allowed do that. If they do they get banned. Just because someone was able to do it what... 6 months ago doesn't mean they can now. Because they have caught GMs through logging incidents and banned them for thier Actions. In fact you know yourself there is a list of current and past GM's within the NC site that you can check. Shooting while invisible (which is needed for some events like the Bat plague one recently) is logged, as is peoples conversations. While a player may be able to doctor their logs a GM can't as they are stored server side. No I admitted SOME GMs have misbehaved and been banned for it. That does not mean the whole system is corrupted that you are making it out to be.I will repeat again. Your information is dated, so you are hardly a valid source of how the game is currently.
You are starting to contridict yourself. Either you know what GMs can do or you don't. Only KK employees can log into player accounts and spawn items.
If you bothered to read the neocron forums instead of flaming them you would of read that ALL GM actions are NOW logged. Every action they make is logged. So I don't know but you believe it is? I fail to follow your logic. KK have said all actions are logged. Yes this was back when actions were not logged. FC's are not allowed do that. If they do they get banned. Just because someone was able to do it what... 6 months ago doesn't mean they can now. Because they have caught GMs through logging incidents and banned them for thier Actions. In fact you know yourself there is a list of current and past GM's within the NC site that you can check. Shooting while invisible (which is needed for some events like the Bat plague one recently) is logged, as is peoples conversations. While a player may be able to doctor their logs a GM can't as they are stored server side. No I admitted SOME GMs have misbehaved and been banned for it. That does not mean the whole system is corrupted that you are making it out to be.I will repeat again. Your information is dated, so you are hardly a valid source of how the game is currently.
Ok genius heres a lesson in logic for you. If I say Not All A can do B, and then I say Some A can do B, that is not contradicting myself... The higher up gms can STILL spawn items and all gms can log into your account I know this first hand from way after the changes were made (maybe they needed permission maybe not). What even makes you think you have any idea what you are talking about? Have you even played neocron before?
I think I would have heard if all gms actions were now logged perhaps you want to provide a link to the thread about it? In fact this seems very unlikely as I we suggested this at one point and KK specifically said this would take way too many resources. Most likely you are lying about this being said or they were lying about doing it. Not that it really makes a difference. The point is the players are not the ones who decide what is right and wrong as far as punishment goes and the people who do decide are just plain stupid. Maybe they just say they log them or maybe they log them but ALLOW their gms to do all kinds of things some players would be pissed about.
As long as they let their VOLUNTEER GMS (often antiamerican, some carebear some of them hardcore pvpers) act as judge, jury and executioner the game is going to be screwed up. The problem is their system is stupid. Other games may have unworthy people who decide who gets in trouble and what for in their customer service department, but this is nowhere near as bad as having volunteers of the street with no interest in the company and who act only based on their own convaluted ideas in charge of policing the game.
Here we go with the poor logic skills again. First I said how do you KNOW that gms actions are logged. Then I said I believe it PROBABLY is. This is not a contradiction. The point is just because KK said it is doesn't mean it is for sure. I think it probably is because Im sure they want to keep some control over them, even if its not in the interest of the players.
As you yourself have said I believe, KK does not check logs unless they have a reason to. What their reasons might be to check a log we have no idea. I have heard of plenty of times where single people I know have complained about a gm cheating and doing things unfair and nothing was ever done- AFTER they started logging. Just because KK has internal logs and has internal control has nothing to do with the consumers interests. And the only reason I speak of this is because everyone is STILL having screwed up encounters with gms.
What does a list of gms or gms being banned before have to do with what powers gms have? And regarding what gms can get away with, like the site says they handle this INTERNALLY. The only time I know of gms getting banned is when 90% of the forum was extremely pissed about somehting a gm did. And now they have suddenly decided it can't be discussed on the forum. Do you really think they did this to protect gms feelings, or do you think they did this so they don't have to retrain gms when everyone finds out they are corrupt? And regardless which is more important the feelings of the people we PAY to get a service or the integrity of the product we recieve?
For the last time where do you get this information about gms OR players actions being logged? They have said repeatedly that logging every action of ANYONE would take far too many resources, I can probably dig up a link to that. I never said EVERYONE in the game is corrupt. The system can be seriously flawed WHICH IT IS which allows the game to be messed up by the gms who are corrupt.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
I have played Neocron longer then you have. I still play Neocron. So who do you think would know more about Neocron? Me or you?
You think you would of heard? You mean like in your very first post where you say (quote) "The company claims that all gm actions are now logged". Sounds like you heard long before I mentioned it.
No I believe what you are referring to is item tracking, which they can't do with the current system they have in place. However they can track GM actions (and from what I heard KK can extend this to trouble players who they can tag to see if they are exploiting). But they cannot track items and whos hands they change to after they leave the logged player.
Ah, the crux of the argument. It looks like you are taking it personal or you have personal issues in relation to GMs. My guess is you have been reported and investigated by a number of GMs for "powergaming" (which GMs call exploiting). I have never known GMs to be anti-(insert country here). If anything they are reverse. Anti-American is normally used as a rebuff to "They don't agree with me". It really has no base in this discussion.
GMs work to set rules. In order to be a GM you either have to be a KK employee or a long term player in good standing (speaking more then one language helps afair). I am not aware of KK employing people randomly taken off the street unless your talking about the Venus server which is a third party.
The contridictions are you say you believe it now, but imply in your first post it is a lie, then claim I am lying when I repeat what you basically said to begin with. But if you believe it then how could I be lying?
Oh if someone reported a GM through the proper channels they would check the logs. If GM support staff (the ones that watch the GMs) would probably randomly check logs for customer service evaluations. That is pretty standard operation in most support centers.
But didn't you say they aren't logging?
Anyway I call BS on that one. I know of at least one GM who was banned for helping friends who was banned because of the logs and not because they were reported by players.
I would of thought the logging of your support staff would be in the consumers interests? No? Why not?
Really? How would you know? You don't play the game anymore. Hearsay isn't as good as actually playing the game.
I agree, and the GMs are there to ensure that each player gets the product fairly. For example do you think a player Explo...powergaming should get the same treatment as players who are playing by the rules of the game?
The same place you did.
No (and to repeat) they said tracking all the items in game took too much resources. however tracking the actions of a handful of GM's is easy. But I could be wrong, dig up that link.
Again you say "to be messed up by the gms who are corrupt." which implys all GMs. Or if we look at your first post you say " GM's have been known throughout the course of the game to spawn items for their friends and give them unfair advantages etc.". Again you imply all GMs you don't say "Some GMs". You make it out as if every GM is totally screwing the game up when that accusation is not even based on reality.
I also noticed you changed your first post. Obviously to try and prove a point. A few rebuttals.
Unless the whole concept of English has changed it actually means they cannot rollback your character.
They only rollback if there are server issues or a bugged player. They used to roll back due to bugs in players but a lot of "powergamers" used that method to dupe their items by handing them off to their friends. What you quoted was a warning to the players to avoid loosing items.
Again your grasp of the English language never ceases to amaze me. What they said was you intentionally lie to a KK employee or GM and you get banned. Name me any other MMORPG were they don't have this rule.
No spamming is posting the same stuff over and over in a channel or not using the channel as intended when there are others trying to use it. Every incident I have seen where a GM has asked them to stop it is normally the ones that tell the GM to "stfu" (sic) that get banned.
The turrets were never designed to go up on top of the outpost walls. I don't know where you got that idea from? Apart from the fact that the walls are too thin (if you want to maintain a RP context). Sounds like you got caught doing it.
The general rule is the older player gets preference. 99% of the time the copied name is something like "player " or "player." who people then use to steal stuff from others. What you would call "powergaming" I guess.
Refusing to leave a dungeon so it will respawn is a banning offense. If the person is harrassing you to get you killed while LE'ed then you should report them. The only reason it is an issue with LE players is because the other players can't kill you for being a dickhead (not you personally the LE player).
And again you are showing how little you know about the game since you left. They long since removed the exploit where dead LE players could stop a dungeon from respawning.
I love how you misquote it. They are talking about levelling your CON the easy way (exploiting, whoops powergaming). They say nothing about banning people for killing NPCs and only guards are actually stronger then most players. All other NPCs are easy to kill.
Uh no you havent played neocron longer than I... When did I even say how long I played neocron for? Anyways this is irrelevant because you obviously have bias and your methods of arguing show that you do not put them aside in favor of coming to a correct conclusion.
I was referring to their GM actions like spawning items. Killing someone is not a GM action. Obviously you did not take this to mean that them walking from point a to b was logged somehow? The only action that gms say is logged on the forums is spawning items.
LOL no I wasn't talking about tracking items. I was talking about something a company rep said in response to the issue of tracking gm movements and shooting players on the forum a little while back. But you make a good point in my favor, if they could track everything gms did then how the hell could they be unable to deal with item loss... Unless they just didn't give a shit. Either way my point is made. If they are unable to track items, then whats to stop a gm from creating all kinds of items normally with tweaked construction values etc. They are going to get a gm just based on him futzing around with his skill values?
The crux of my argument is everything here. Someones motivation for an argument is a different story. I could of told you that my reason for being irritated at them is that they treat customers like crap and don't want other people to have to deal with it. Its up to people to read the information I present and determine if they will likely encounter the same problems.
No I have never gotten in trouble. I have been threatened several times by gms for rediculous reasons. Once I got teleported to darkmetal, threatened, and the gm attempted to intimidate me into deleting my character simlpy because I killed one of his friends and then ran away from the rest who were much higher level before they could get me. He claimed he saw my charcater warp, a common occurence due to lag and the poor nature of the network code at the time, so I MUST have been using a speed hack
Then I was cursed out in Private messages from other gms because I was complaining about how rediculous that was. Then a company rep insulted me on the forum in order to keep his gms from quitting for not getting their immature vindication. All of this for just playing the game.
As far as antiamerican, carebear and hardcore pvper gms, of course it has a place in this discussion . They have absolutely NO motivation to remain objective and have way to much power. Which means whatever convaluted ideas, predjudices whatever they have are institutionalized against the customer. And yes these ideas have been demonstrated among their gms before at least once each or I wouldn't have mentioned them.
The GM's I am speaking of are not the company reps I mean the volunteers from the game populace. They each have their own ideas about how things should be and when you put them in power yet do not force them to be objective their power becomes a way for them to enforce their silly ideas.
ok aqua... here we go... I am not claiming you are lying that gm actions are logged, I am claiming you are lying that you know gm actions are logged. I didn't say in my first post that I thoguht they were lying, I was implying that they do it for their own purposes not the benefit of the customer.
How do you know they would check the logs if someone complained through their rediculous channels? What makes you think they would take action against gms for things that the player would consider unfair instead of just themselves not liking it? A reason why I am here is because people have made legitimate comlpaints against gms through proper channels were gms have done very unfair things and nothing has happened.
No I didn't ever say they weren't really logging I was saying they are doing it for their own reasons. If you are telling the truth about the gm being banned by logs all that says is they have things they themselves don't want gms doing. who was this gm btw? Anyways the point is they never come out and say "we think its ok if our gms do this or that so we arent going to punish them" They completely leave the customers out of the loop. Thats probably because they know damn well that some of the things tehy allow their gms to do would piss off players and scare of new players.
Internal logs are not in the consumer interest unless they are used to further the consumers interest. If they are only used to further the companies interest then they are of no benefit to the consumer...
Whats wrong with heresay? This isn't a freaking courtroom... I can tell if someone is telling the truth about an experience with a gm by the way they tell it. If I tell you there is no difference weather I claim to have experienced it myself (which I did when I still played not that long ago) or if someone else told me and I concluded by the way they said it they were telling the truth(also the case). Either way readers still have to read what I say and determine if it is likely true for themselves...
To the question regarding powergamers- Powergamers ARE playing by the rules of the game, they just analyze the boundaries of the game to find the fastest way. Punishing powergamers is the equivalent of beating people up for being smarter than you.. (something germans have a history of doing...ok sorry cheap shot)
The line between exploiting and powergaming is a thin one, and imo even in the case of exploiting it is the companies own damn fault for not designing the game better. If I ever found an mmorpg there will be no such thing as exploiting, although whatever measures necesarry for damage control will be taken. Hacking is another story... But the point here is KK punishes people simply for doing what is clearly powergaming.
Ok you got info that gms actions are logged at the same place I did so the next question is how do you know they aren't lying for sure? Im just making a point that you take everything KK says as straight from the mouth of god. They might not give a crap at all what customers think about what is fair or not fair...
No I wasn't implying All gms.. Perhaps if I had highlighted "are" you would get what I meant? As in "I never said EVERYONE in the game is corrupt. The system can be seriously flawed WHICH IT IS which allows the game to be messed up by the gms who ->ARE<- corrupt. " Sorry a little ambiguity there I guess...
OMG LOL... No that quote is not talking about Items lost in events due to server instability. Its saying that if you shoot a gm or participant in an event a gm will roll back your "character values" so that you can no longer do damage... Read it again... "Its up to a player to select valid targets" What does that have to do with item loss??
This is exactly my point when I keep saying "how do you know?", you didn't even understand what that was saying and you started popping off about gms only doing fair things!! What makes you think you have any clue what you are talking about? Or do you not care and are only trying to create an illusion?
My translation of the misleading employees bit was made to point out that they can interpret this rule to allow them to ban anyone they feel like by claiming you were lying about something and probably do given their disposition. I HOPE other companies with similar rules stipulate that it means if you lie with the intention of gaining an unfair advantage or harming another customer....
I know what the textbook definition of spamming is, my point is this rule allows the gms to ban anyone if they want to. WHICH YOU POINT OUT BY SAYING THAT TELLING A GM TO STFU IS MORE LIKELY TO GET YOU BANNED THEN REPEATEDLY SPAMMING ON ITS OWN. Gms are volunteers, for crying out loud we have this problem in real life with police because they aren't paid ENOUGH. Gms aren't paid at all. Wheres their motivation to remain objective? Not a complicated argument here...
I got that the artillary turrets were made to go on walls from a discussion when they were implented with kk people involved on the forum. What you thought artillary turrets were supposed to sit on the floor inside the base and hit stuff on the way arcing up words? They were always placed on the walls back when they were first implemented, thats the only intellegent place TO put artillery turrets....
The name thing isn't limited to tradeskillers. Yes that is an example of somehting they should devise a way to fix rather than punish customers. I would never do it but they specifically say on the forums its up to the player to be careful who they give their items to. The name rule goes with their own poorly devised idea of how the system should go. Rather than devise a better plan they just try and destroy anything that doesn't allow it to work. But this isn't the only application of the name rule.
LE in dungeon thing- You might have an excuse for punishing a customer rather than just devising a better system if they had some way to detect that a player was purposely sabotaging a dungeon from respawning by not leaving. But they have no way to detect if that is the players intention. You could just be finishing off the last mob and people could be lie about it because they want the viper king to respawn or whatever. This is a rediculous rule. Yes I know they made it so dead players dont keep it from being respawned a few months ago, I just forgot. It doesn't make a difference to my point.
You level your con anytime you are shot. that means if you attack a guard you could be accused of leveling your con. And YES ITS FREAKING REDICULOUS THAT THIS IS A RULE, ITS NOT EXPLOITING ITS POWERGAMING. You die when you attack copbots and guards and it doesn't let you level that fast Ive done it before... Do you realize how many things can get you banned between all these rules now? Can you say heavy foot of KK?
The point is the rules give gms many many tools to inflict their views on other players and nothing is in place to make them remain objective. My description of each rule is to point out the worst case scenario that each rule allows that have probably all happened before, many of which I KNOW has happened before
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
First up if you are going to reply, don't just quote the whole previous post. It makes your posts harder to read and just clutters up the whole post.
Easy. In the NC forums. Considering I started around the same time as you and I haven't quit in all that time (where as you have quit a number of times and come back) I have been playing longer then you. The fact that you quit the game and I still play means I am also still playing longer then you are.
Not entirely sure where you are coming with the bias comment. If you mean I am bias against exploiters (who call themselves powergamers) or people who have no clue about the game then yes I suppose I do. Of course I didn't come into this argument totally blind. I did read up a lot on what you have gotten up to (again the NC forums. Aren't they great).
As has been said numerous times all GM actions are logged.
Well I am getting a bit bored repeating myself over and over for you. Either you aren't reading anything or your just skipping over the parts which seem to point you out as wrong.
So again for you...
1. They track GMs actions because there are few of them. They can see what items they made but not where the items go after they are handed over (but they can see who got them handed to them).
2. They cannot track all items in game.
3. They do not replace lost items, not because it is not possible but because some "powergamers" were using it to dupe and they totally screwed it over for the people who are playing the game.
4. The part you commented earlier (which this piece is about) relates to KK explaining how to avoid loosing items.
They care, but when they have tossers.. sorry "powergamers" cheating in the game to get items it is not KKs fault when they have to stop it. It is the fault of the people who ruined it for others.
Oh and when a GM spawns a item it is not GM quality. I am sure you will have a rebuttal for that but the explanation has been made pages ago (read). They could construct one with skill values but then it won't be any better then a capped constructor and it would have their name plastered all over the item (top quality items are tagged with the constructors name).
They don't treat customers like crap. They treat their customers very well, however they may of treated you like crap but anyone joining the game can just do a search on the NC forums to get a feel to why that is.
However there is an exploit that certain powergamers use to warp. I am sure you would know about this as the bug has been in the game since beta. Anyone caught doing it is normally warned then banned. Your whole "the GMs are out to get me" sounds like a one sided baseless argument. Some of the stories posted before (again on the NC forums) where such players as yourself quote such a thing KK would give indepth details as well as logs as to what happened. They only delete/lock the posts now as the person is supposed to report it through the proper channels and 99% of the complaints were completly baseless.
As for insulting you.. must go look for that post. I am sure you aren't telling the whole story either on that. Post a link.
Anti-Americanism has nothing whatsoever to do with this. I never said anything about the others. KK staff have never shown any racism and stamp extremly hard on it both in game and in the forums. Just recently an American player complained he was treated like crap by the French Players on Venus server (french speaking server) because he couldn't speak French. He was asked by KK to give them names and the people in question were warned not to do it again. You would be very hard pressed to point out that KK are racists.
The only Anti they might be is Anti-you.
GMs (all kinds) have to play the game by strict rules. It may of not been the case six or seven months ago but it is most certainly the case now.
But anything that improves the game is better for the customer is it not?
Because they have said they would. Because it is a business and a business doesn't try to intentionally loose its customers despite what some people think. They might get rid of disruptive customers who are causing problems either to their servers or to other players. But what MMORPG out there doesn't do this?
I am not at liberty to say who the GM was. I am sure they show up in the GMs list though. As for things they don't want them doing? Of course they don't want GM's ruining the game, thats why they have rules in place and do random spot checks.
Which in fact they are used to. They check the logs to see how their customers are being treated, how to handle situations, how to train in new employees. All standard help desk stuff.
My friend in game overheard from someone that you routinely cheated and exploited your way through the game and were a general pest to the majority of the players in the game and he said the day you quit no one cared. Of course this is all hearsay.
Sorry but from what I have read here (and the NC forums) your defination of "powergaming" is exploiting the game mechanics to get a one up on other people in the game. KK don't punish what I call powergamers (those that play within the context of the game). They do stamp down hard on exploiters who do things like use a clipping bug to farm MC5 zone then claim they were only using cover as per the rules of the game.
Designing a better game? I do not know of any game out there that doesn't have its issue with exploiters. It has nothing to do with design, as there is nothing a group of people can't think of that can't combat 400-500 people. So you say KK don't do damage control? Like changing the game or rules to stop exploiters (which you then berate them for doing).
Give me 3 examples. Heck just give me 1 if you can't get three.
So your whole basis to the argument is you believe they are lying? I don't follow your logic.
No you read it again. They are saying in the event you totally screw your character up by say going red at an event and having your stuff looted they will not roll back your character. It has absolutly nothing to do with them disabling your character at the event (which a GM can't do and normally teleports you to darkmetal if you are being a total ass).
All other MMORPGs have the exact same stipulation. You lie to a game employee or pretend to be one you get banned.
I love the way you misquote me. I said that after being warned, it is normally the players who then say stfu to the GM get banned. They do not ban players for spamming, they warn them to stop first and normally more then once. Simple enough for you?
Again they were never intended to be put on walls. Anyone with an ounce of sense could look at the Outpost walls and say they shouldn't go there. And don't try to twist the argument about putting them into rooms. Outposts are various sizes and most if not all allow placement of turrets out in the open so they can attack people as they come in or are at a high point. Just because you think it is doesn't make it so.
Again. Abusing the name system (ie. exploiting the game mechanics) you are no longer a customer for doing that. You are in fact destroying the game. Again you try to twist with another allowed issue, but as I said your defination of what is allowed is called exploiting.
Yes they have. Its called the "Page GM" option in the top right of the screen. Boss dungeons do not respawn until people leave (to make them harder to get the items). Your story to claim you were not sabotaging is total BS and a GM would know within 2 minutes of turning up that the person was being disruptive.
*sigh* I am sure you know the full reasons so this is for other people. Attacking a guard is not exploiting. You will die. If you are low level you will probably gain CON.
Attacking and respawning over and over to level CON by attacking a guard is exploiting as it causes serious problems in the zone you are doing it in to other people in the game. Some spots people do this is at Medicare (heavy player spot) or Outzone station. So please don't go on as if they ban people for attacking guards, far from it.
and that is so strange considering I have never had any problems with GMs, as have many others. Yourself seems to have had some run ins with GMs yet you were not banned, you quit the game.
For the last time, you quit a long time ago. you are hardly a good reviewer for the game. You can post a reply if you want but you have made it quite clear what kind of player you are and to be honest the game is better without you.