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weak pvp system.
rungard
Member Posts: 1,035
there is something inherently wrong with the way they are setting up the pvp system.
It makes no sense that if you arent the appropiate tier you "simply cannot attack" lower end players in specific areas.
i would like to propose an alternative system that makes sense from a gameplay perspective.
Each side would have "stealthed" roaming npc assasins who are high end npc tracker/killers. The lower the tier of the zone, the higher number of these assasins, who move around the maps like ghosts looking for targets of a specific range. i.e if you didnt want tier 4 players in a tier 3 area, they would only be agressive towards tier 4. They would only attack players they considered a "challenge" and wouldnt bother with appropiate tier players as they provide no challenge. Since these npc's are trackers, anyone coming in expecting to gank.. will probabally end up being ganked by these guys.
this allows for a few things:
1) you dont need hard mechanics to "prevent" players from playing, as the soft mechanics will provide a deturant.
2) this allows lower end players to participate in the killing of these high end guys since they will have help. It will also help players stay on their toes as the threat can be real.
3) from a gameplay perspective you havent prevented anyone from doing what they want, but you have put in a signifigant risk for doing so.
4) it will be more fun for the players who choose this activity as it will provide signifigant challenge for them as well.
personally it just makes sense to solve in game proplems with in game solutions before resorting to "stone wall" rules to protect players. This is a pvp game after all.
Comments
How about if say you enter a level 2 tiered zone as a tier 4, your abilities are locked to tier 2 abilities and below?
Either way, this isn't exactly a deal breaker for me. I'm still very much looking forward to this game.
at all costs i think they should use in game solutions to solve ingame problems. Im not a ganker or twinker either but i can still see that there is some positive gameplay to having a juggernaut in the area for a lower end player.
think about the two following scenarios:
1) current model: theres an invincible tir 4 black orc in the area giving away combat related information to his low end counterparts giving them a relative edge in both tactics and support in pve in case they decide to train mobs into the pvp mix. Basically this is an exploit imo.
2) proposed model: the same black orc enteres the area and the trackers pick him up. They then should around the area that thay are in pursuit of a large black orc alerting players that the orc is in the area. The trackers make it to the orc and begin to combat him, with the aid of some local low end players the orc is taken out, but not before he was able to lay the smackdown on some "newbs"
ill take number 2 anyday because it feels better to me and to the world. I would also be very suprised that GW would allow such a blatant disregard for immersive gameplay as scenario # 1 shows.
but I want to gank lowbies waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
/sarcasm
I just dont understand what is to be gained from killing lowbies They wont have good loot, it wont help with the rvr realm effort and it just frustrates people trying to learn how to play the game.
Say an orc is giving away information - so what that just means there is one less orc where it will matter - Besides, just what "information" will this orc be able to give out that will give the greenskin lowbie players an advantage??
It's this kind of stuff, players wanting to go into lowbie zones and massacre everyone, that brought DK's in WoW and ruined the PvP system. How about you learn how to fight players your own level, and actually learn to PvP.
I liked the idea by whoever said that a friendly officer tells you that you are more needed on the battlfield and doesn't let you answer. Also, didn't someone from Mythic explain the whole Insanity/Fate points thing. Maybe as a compromise, if you need to feel better about sucking in PvP and have to kill lowbies, you get a good deal of insanity points, and have to kill players of your own level to get them back. By doing that, players who suck at PvP and can only beat players 2 tiers below them will pay the price.
Thats just a compromise. For me its fight players your own level or go home.
I don't think that would work well.
What if you need to go into a lower level zone to talk to an NPC for a higher level quest. So now you have XX number of stealthed NPCs trying to attack you at all times?? Doesn't sound fun. Games have people do this all the time. Those lower zones never become completely obsolete. There is always some random NPC you need to go back and talk to later. They did in DAoC and they have done in WoW. Not to say WAR will follow suit, but it is likely.
It's so much easier to just cap PvP levels. Sure, some times lower level players enjoy killing a maxed out toon. However, the majority of the time it's the high level players who get bored and go ganking lowbies. This prevents that from happening. High end players are always going to get bored in any game.
Think of the WAR PvP Scenarios as WoW Battlegrounds. A level 60 can't join a lvl 10-19 WSG. Also the skirmish, battleground PvP can't take place on the entire zone map. Their will be red zones marked off for PvP.
so what happens when this invincible black orc starts following you around ingame.
you cant try to kill him, he cant kill you. you gonna call a gm?
at least with the stalkers there is something to keep him occupied.
Remember this is a WAR - There’s a whole bloody WAR to keep him occupied.
And again, Dont provided scenarios, i mean how much of the game have you actually played? Oh...wait...
Playing - --
Played - AO, CoH/CoV, DDO, Eve, Guildwars, LOTRO, WoW.
Waiting - For WAR, Fury.
This is one of those gray area topics. There is not current mechanic that can govern this problem. WoW tried but inevitably griping attained record levels which led to the brain child known as "civilian NPCs"; which beget DKs and much much more griping. For those that don't know how this evovled. In WoW, initially, it was supposed to be setup such that upper level players COULD NOT attack LOWER LEVEL players that were gray, but it really wasn't a game mechanic intact that actually stopped it. The thinking behind it was that the only way to get honor was if the lower level player started combat. Needless to say there were several situations where this just didn't work, the most paramount of these being that people didn't much care about honor, so much as killing the opposite faction.
ANYWAY, back to the topic of WAR. I'd like it if there was some truly creative way to handle this that didn't violate the laws of logic. I mean if a Lieutenant runs into a pissant Private of the opposite faction; he doesn't simply let him pass. Bad analogy I know, but the point remains the same. I think it's plain stupid/pathetic that an upper tier player absolutely can not attack a lower tier player. On the other hand I think it's extremely irritating to have griefing/ganking be the norm.
While I haven't thoroughly read through the whole "tracker," idea proposed in previous posts - I can say that from past game experience, whenever you involve NPCs in PvP the enjoyment factor seems to decline more and more. World PvP in WoW became sooo NPC saturated (the more you attacked a town the more NPCs spawned) that people just stopped doing PvP raids all together regardless of the DK debackle. So while I can't truly speak on your NPC ideda, I'm against ANYTHING that promotes NPC involvement in Player based PvP.
i didnt make up the trackers. Mythic did.
Except that back in the day these invisible assasins were played by players who cheated and used radar. And yes they were ultimately invisible. Maybe you remember them better as nightshades, rangers, shadowblades, hunters and infiltrators. Not that they all cheated, but the ones that did were very effective.
i thought it would be ironic to use the most hated cheaters in daoc of all time for the cause of something good.
and no. your wow experience wont prepare you for a mythic pvp game. dont bother trying to compare them. its not even close.
If I need heals Im not killing fast enough
Frankly I prefer the mechanics now implemented than the proposed change.
First, no player can stealth or become invisible so how invisble pvp npcs would be justified?
second, why these gods are bothering with the low level areas when they should be killing big enemies in capital assault?
Third, do we really need such a complex system, that can possibly be exploited, instead of the simple You higher tier = you can't do much there. The orc giving out info would not be bothered by the trackers, he can sit comfortably in the PVE area and give all the advice the newbies needs without even entering the pvp area, so making the trackers worthless (this assuming there is some sort of general zone chats or even /yell will work).
If the big bad ass tier 4 orc start following you around like an idiot, so be it. if he start to be annoying, like blocking your visuals or doing negative things, that is called "harassment" and most EULA consider it a bannable offense, so just report the sucker that likes to lose time in tier 1 areas.
So at the end, it seems to me the tracker idea doesn't help much. In principle you should not want high level guys coming stomping trough the low level areas if you can avoid it.
But well, the invincible, can't do anything, model is not necessarily perfect, so if you have other ideas, bring them on.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I'm of two minds on people that gank lowbies.
1) They are the inevitable downfall of pvp servers. Most pvp servers have horrid populations relative to the "blue" servers. Why, because anyone the sets foot on a pvp server, after deciding to try it out, is immediately set upon by these bottom feedind jackasses, and sent scurrying back to safety, where they promptly tell everyone and their mother of the depravity to be found in pvp land. Then the same bottom feeding jackasses lament how devs don't pay attention to pvp servers, and the pvp community at large, because their aren't enough players. Way to eat your own young, putzes.
2) Do I really want to be playing in a pvp environment with people that can't hack a bit of griefing? Is that numbskull lvl 10 bard that cried when I killed him really the person I want guarding my back? Perhaps a bit of ganking is required as a rite of passage, to weed out the weakwilled? God knows I endured my fair share, and then some on RZ, and SZ back in EQ, and I still made it. Either adapt and overcome, or gtfo.
Usually, I fall somewhere in between. Actually, I don't care so much about those that kill some random lowbie once, and move on. It's the ones that sit around and corpse camp indivuals, or groups, that cheese me off. They're the ones in #1 above. The occasional random death from a high level builds character, and truth be told, helps teach some pretty helpfull survival skills. Being run out of the game by some retard does not.
CoX does that however for some reason they let your enhancements still give level 50s the edge over the newbs in the lowbie zones. additionally tyhis encourages ppl to min/max builds for a lowbie zone. lastly, it encourages ppl to PvP in a lowbie zone too rather than the higher ones just because there's more ppl in the lowbie zone
yeah doesnt work so well for CoX. I'd rather be able to gank the lowbies. if they designed a good system then it would be skill based giving lowbies a chance to fight backl. for instance in BF2142 / Rainbow 6 a newb (private) can still kill a General even though the high ranked soldier has more abilities. Hoping an MMO developer will learn something from the true PvP multiplayer games out there. Darkfall is supposedly implementing this I hoped WAR would too but the interview here on this site troubles me greatly
but on the good side there will be no PvE end game raiding. Yay!!!! Take that fluffy carebears
Personally, I don't want to be playing in a game at all with people who enjoy griefing, and who get their jollies by killing some character who has no chance, then imagining the player crying about what they did. Unlike a lot of MMORPG players, I actually play games to have fun, not to walk in and have an utterly one-sided fight (win or lose). I also don't play to disrupt other people's fun like the 'hardcore' PVPers love so much, I'd rather other people enjoy their play too so that there's more people in the game.
I find all of the tough talk really amusing when you think deeper about what people are really complaining about. The game is still going to have PVP areas, where you can ambush and gang up on people, it's not going to be something like a WOW PVE server. There's just a mechanic that keeps high tier players from shutting down gameplay of lower tier players. It doesn't stop a player from engaging in any real PVP at all, just in messing with people who don't have a chance.
Do I really want to be playing in a pvp environment with people that can't hack real fights? Is that numbskull who's best skill is ganking lowbies and who cries when a game doesn't let him do it really the person I want guarding my back?
much easier to design challenge into the behavior than to cut a drop everything at the first sign that someone will cry.
giving them a controlled avenue is much better than them finding another way to do it.
It's better to think as a strategy game that you are one of the soldiers in great, endless armies, instead of thinking about yourself in a world where there are few people around.
Weak armies attack weak armies (tier 1 vs tier 1, etc...) and strong armies attack strong armies, that's their duty. To attack and fight the ones who are as strong as you are!
It's RvR, mates! Hail RvR!
Personally, I don't want to be playing in a game at all with people who enjoy griefing, and who get their jollies by killing some character who has no chance, then imagining the player crying about what they did. Unlike a lot of MMORPG players, I actually play games to have fun, not to walk in and have an utterly one-sided fight (win or lose). I also don't play to disrupt other people's fun like the 'hardcore' PVPers love so much, I'd rather other people enjoy their play too so that there's more people in the game.
I find all of the tough talk really amusing when you think deeper about what people are really complaining about. The game is still going to have PVP areas, where you can ambush and gang up on people, it's not going to be something like a WOW PVE server. There's just a mechanic that keeps high tier players from shutting down gameplay of lower tier players. It doesn't stop a player from engaging in any real PVP at all, just in messing with people who don't have a chance.
Do I really want to be playing in a pvp environment with people that can't hack real fights? Is that numbskull who's best skill is ganking lowbies and who cries when a game doesn't let him do it really the person I want guarding my back?
I'd have to agree with you man. I never understood the people who grief lowbies. I don't see how it is fun. All I can imagine it doing is making the griefer feel better about themselves in some sad, sad way. All griefing does is frustrate new players who just want to have fun and not put up with the crap some of the jerk higher level players subject to them. I wouldn't call a system that discourages lowbie ganking "weak" I'd call it smart. Either ante up and face the challenge of equal level players or pack up and head over to WoW and enjoy your lowbie ganking.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Metallica8589/videos?view=0
Great decision here, and I wanna send a big Boooo Hooo to you scrubs that are crying about not being able to gank lowbies.
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You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
I agree! The ones who wants to gank, go to World of Warcraft or whatever. Warhammer shows skill, not gank... and I dislike the ones who even don't know who Mythic is, since they know how RvR and PvP should be! Too bad many kiddies are crazy after WoW for geargrinding and ganking, when they don't have anything to do... ammusing for the ganker, but not for the low level player.
Shoo the ones who want to gank lowbies! You are a part of the strong armies, not a coward ganker!
well i did play daoc for 2 years. How many of you guys have actually played daoc? From the sounds of it, none.
You really want to gank lowbies and let them be frustrated? As we all says, if you want to gank, go play World of Warcraft. Now that's a game for you to go ganking. If you really want to gank, play that game, instead of this one. The game is not even ready, and if it will be like it's told now, then you can go and play World of Warcraft. We don't want gankers who doesn't have anything to do. Play Warhammer Online in the right and mainpointy way, and that is to go and fight other people who are as skilled as you are, not the other way that you've spend too much time playing Warhammer and doesn't have a thing to do after mass fighting. Go ganking? Go and read a book or something in real life.
If the game will be like this, then it's okay for me and many other people who are anti-gankers. If you fight and fight the skilled ones, it'll be fun. And if you ever get a bit tired of it, take a break from the game or something and do anything in real life.
Ganking =
well why stop there..
lets make it so you cant be outnumbered.
crowd control isnt fair either.. lets eliminate that too.
That guy is way better equipped than me.. make items worthless...
wait.. that guy has 2 more strength than me..
eliminate him too.
its not fair and i might get frustrated.
lol...