Wow...I'm starting to think us old MUDDERS are in the minority on the intentions of FFA PK/PvP. Most of us only wanted it to police the community or to pound "evils" (the other side of the racewar) into submission. I do understand people's concerns with corpse camping though...it is a nasty problem on MMOs, that we never really had to deal with on MUDs for some reason.
So for those of you against FFA PvP, what is your solution to policing the community and weeding out intolerable, bratty kids? Reporting to GMs is utterly useless and they don't learn squat from it. The only other effective solution is to ban them for breathing wrong, and you KNOW that's not going to happen (money money money).
Do you all really want to deal with the annoying behavior ever-present in WoW, and not be able to do anything about it? This game will be good enough to attract a lot of those sub-humans...
Wow...I'm starting to think us old MUDDERS are in the minority on the intentions of FFA PK/PvP. Most of us only wanted it to police the community or to pound "evils" (the other side of the racewar) into submission. I do understand people's concerns with corpse camping though...it is a nasty problem on MMOs, that we never really had to deal with on MUDs for some reason. So for those of you against FFA PvP, what is your solution to policing the community and weeding out intolerable, bratty kids? Reporting to GMs is utterly useless and they don't learn squat from it. The only other effective solution is to ban them for breathing wrong, and you KNOW that's not going to happen (money money money). Do you all really want to deal with the annoying behavior ever-present in WoW, and not be able to do anything about it? This game will be good enough to attract a lot of those sub-humans...
WoW = Contains BATTLE.NET people. Battle.net people = The worst, disgusting, immature breed on earth. That's what WoW gets for attracting theese sick people.
Anyway, WAR has the potencial to grow a very nasty zit (community) too if it attracts a majority of the WoW people. Thus WAR doesn't have a RTS background (kinda), tabletop shouldn't count cus those who does that are so in-depth in what they do their behaviours are only but fanboyism = only abusive in forums and outside the game.
Time will only tell. Thus you might be a bit wrong about WoW community, about what you can and cannot do. You can actually report every abusive person you see. Though this will get EXTREMELY repetetive very fast since there's so many there's always a chance the devs listen to your opinions. If the person doesn't change and gets too many warnings, then actions will be taken to stop that person.
If mythic cares about their community or not, I don't know deep down inside. But their current passion for the game says they do. If they get all EA over the game and only care about the money, which I am pretty sure they will depending on how strong EA's tongue matters, things could get VERY ugly.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
The real problem isnt that the game has these restrictions. The real problem is that the concept of honour and showing respect for fellow gamers is alien to certain MMO players, hence why we have ended up with such concepts as locked encounters, instanced dungeons and measures to prevent people ganking lowbies in PvP MMOs.
If this subset of the MMO populace was mentally mature enough not to kill steal, loot steal, gank lowbies or perform any other action that causes inappropriate grief to fellow gamers then the MMO developers would never have had to implement such concepts.
To be honest the only sort of gamers that complain about not being able to gank lowbies are quite simply spineless bullies ... the ones that lack the skill or guts to take on someone in a fair fight and therefore have to resort to picking on those unable to defend themselves.
WoW = Contains BATTLE.NET people. Battle.net people = The worst, disgusting, immature breed on earth. That's what WoW gets for attracting theese sick people.
Anyway, WAR has the potencial to grow a very nasty zit (community) too if it attracts a majority of the WoW people. Thus WAR doesn't have a RTS background (kinda), tabletop shouldn't count cus those who does that are so in-depth in what they do their behaviours are only but fanboyism = only abusive in forums and outside the game.
Time will only tell. Thus you might be a bit wrong about WoW community, about what you can and cannot do. You can actually report every abusive person you see. Though this will get EXTREMELY repetetive very fast since there's so many there's always a chance the devs listen to your opinions. If the person doesn't change and gets too many warnings, then actions will be taken to stop that person.
If mythic cares about their community or not, I don't know deep down inside. But their current passion for the game says they do. If they get all EA over the game and only care about the money, which I am pretty sure they will depending on how strong EA's tongue matters, things could get VERY ugly.
I agree with your assessment of the WoW "community". The only community I found worse, was in Vanguard. That game IMHO is a complete mess. In any event, I'll be trying out WAR anyways and hoping for the best in terms of PvP...my concern is that it will attract a lot of the WoW amoebae, and I won't be able to assist in "correcting" their foul mouths.
The real problem isnt that the game has these restrictions. The real problem is that the concept of honour and showing respect for fellow gamers is alien to certain MMO players, hence why we have ended up with such concepts as locked encounters, instanced dungeons and measures to prevent people ganking lowbies in PvP MMOs. If this subset of the MMO populace was mentally mature enough not to kill steal, loot steal, gank lowbies or perform any other action that causes inappropriate grief to fellow gamers then the MMO developers would never have had to implement such concepts. To be honest the only sort of gamers that complain about not being able to gank lowbies are quite simply spineless bullies ... the ones that lack the skill or guts to take on someone in a fair fight and therefore have to resort to picking on those unable to defend themselves.
I followed your logic up until the last paragraph, where you made the over-generalization that all people who want to gank lowbies are "bad news". I will tell you this: corpse camping is easy to manage on low pop servers, if the GMs step in and issue warnings. After all, that's not the true intent of FFA PvP. As for high pop servers, it's obviously more difficult.
I can guarantee you this though...if I start seeing a lot of the same behavior in WAR that I encountered in WoW, I will start off by reporting ad nauseum. After all, if I can't PK the idiot loudmouth, then I will use the only method at my disposal to retaliate. And, assuming it becomes as pervasive a problem as in WoW, you will see a gradual exodus of the mature player base.
Wow...I'm starting to think us old MUDDERS are in the minority on the intentions of FFA PK/PvP. Most of us only wanted it to police the community or to pound "evils" (the other side of the racewar) into submission. I do understand people's concerns with corpse camping though...it is a nasty problem on MMOs, that we never really had to deal with on MUDs for some reason. So for those of you against FFA PvP, what is your solution to policing the community and weeding out intolerable, bratty kids? Reporting to GMs is utterly useless and they don't learn squat from it. The only other effective solution is to ban them for breathing wrong, and you KNOW that's not going to happen (money money money). Do you all really want to deal with the annoying behavior ever-present in WoW, and not be able to do anything about it? This game will be good enough to attract a lot of those sub-humans...
Sorry, but I distinctly remember encountering people in PvP MUDs that did exactly those sorts of things. The difference is that MUDs are much much smaller scale and therefore it was fairly easy for the GMs to deal with those that didnt play fairly or within the rules.
Most MMOs have /ignore style commands so you can avoid comments from such lowlife, but in order to prevent more direct forms of interference the MMO developers have had to take more drastic steps like looting rights, instanced dungeons, locked encounters, various measures to limit grey ganking (BGs, level difference restrictions on who can be attacked, etc).
Banning is never an effective solution with MMOs, as it is too easy to get around it ... ban their credit card they just get a new one or use gamecards ... ban their address they just use a fake one ... ban/delete their account they just get a new one ... and banning IPs isnt a viable option as a lot of ISPs dont allocate fixed IPs. At the end of the day such bans probably boost the income of the MMO producer through additional game sales, banning certainly hasnt had much effect on the gold farmers!
In the early days of MMOs there were less restrictions, but it soon became apparent that in order for the MMO experience to be enjoyable for most of their subscribers they had to start introducing more and more restrictions, the first of these being Trammel in UO and the consensual PvP system in EQ. Pure PvP MMOs/servers have tended to fail once one side gets ahead, or it becomes impossible to level up due to gankers, i.e. DAoC PvP servers, Shadowbane, RF Online, and many others. Normal DAoC servers and WoW got around this by having areas where you could level safely away from gankers, like instances and areas with PvP restrictions.
WoW = Contains BATTLE.NET people. Battle.net people = The worst, disgusting, immature breed on earth. That's what WoW gets for attracting theese sick people.
if it's BATTLE.NET people what is in question, don't you think that WAR has more potential in atracting them than WoW. WAR is an all out PVP enviroment with no risk areas and instanced PVP for "balanced" PVP, world PVP for ganking and lower tier areas protected from the big bad lvls. THAT is true paradise for spineless, soulless, immature and generally shitty people, beacuse those people do not ask for danger, excitment or challenge, they ask for safe, sterile world with clear boundaries and clear rules where they don't need to think or decide...
I followed your logic up until the last paragraph, where you made the over-generalization that all people who want to gank lowbies are "bad news". I will tell you this: corpse camping is easy to manage on low pop servers, if the GMs step in and issue warnings. After all, that's not the true intent of FFA PvP. As for high pop servers, it's obviously more difficult. I can guarantee you this though...if I start seeing a lot of the same behavior in WAR that I encountered in WoW, I will start off by reporting ad nauseum. After all, if I can't PK the idiot loudmouth, then I will use the only method at my disposal to retaliate. And, assuming it becomes as pervasive a problem as in WoW, you will see a gradual exodus of the mature player base.
Its not an over-generalisation at all, grey ganking is quite simply bullying, there is nothing to be gained from it other than getting one over on that particular person and by the nature of it there is nothing they can do about it. I have seen it in the majority of PvP MMOs I have played and for the most part it goes unpunished. In fact on most of them it is seen by the GM staff as part of the game, its only later when the player numbers start to dwindle and the remaining players begin whining about a lack of targets that they try and do something about it but by then it is too late.
Do you honestly think killing the loudmouth's toon will solve the problem? In my experience it has zero effect, they just come back and continue, the only effective solution is to ignore them, afterall those sorts of idiots are just hoping you react to them much like the flamers you get on forums. Ignore them, they get bored soon enough and move on ... normally to WoW
WoW = Contains BATTLE.NET people. Battle.net people = The worst, disgusting, immature breed on earth. That's what WoW gets for attracting theese sick people.
if it's BATTLE.NET people what is in question, don't you think that WAR has more potential in atracting them than WoW. WAR is an all out PVP enviroment with no risk areas and instanced PVP for "balanced" PVP, world PVP for ganking and lower tier areas protected from the big bad lvls. THAT is true paradise for spineless, soulless, immature and generally shitty people, beacuse those people do not ask for danger, excitment or challenge, they ask for safe, sterile world with clear boundaries and clear rules where they don't need to think or decide... ... I really don't think WAR should be a paradise for such people. WAR world seem to become VERY organized to visit. The chance of being in a unbalanced team seems smaller than most other games (don't count GW here).
If you're a relentless, immature and ignorant person you'd want a free world with NO boundries where you can attack low-level people and do /spit at them afterwards. You'd seek the most vicious game ever just so that you can act out your vileness upon the weaker.
In WAR, I don't see any element of this that can satisfy theese people. Instead, I see focused team work, not soloing/ganking. Not in such an extended perspective as "normal" MMORPG's has.
So no, I don't think it will attract them.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
WoW = Contains BATTLE.NET people. Battle.net people = The worst, disgusting, immature breed on earth. That's what WoW gets for attracting theese sick people.
if it's BATTLE.NET people what is in question, don't you think that WAR has more potential in atracting them than WoW. WAR is an all out PVP enviroment with no risk areas and instanced PVP for "balanced" PVP, world PVP for ganking and lower tier areas protected from the big bad lvls. THAT is true paradise for spineless, soulless, immature and generally shitty people, beacuse those people do not ask for danger, excitment or challenge, they ask for safe, sterile world with clear boundaries and clear rules where they don't need to think or decide... ... I really don't think WAR should be a paradise for such people. WAR world seem to become VERY organized to visit. The chance of being in a unbalanced team seems smaller than most other games (don't count GW here).
If you're a relentless, immature and ignorant person you'd want a free world with NO boundries where you can attack low-level people and do /spit at them afterwards. You'd seek the most vicious game ever just so that you can act out your vileness upon the weaker.
In WAR, I don't see any element of this that can satisfy theese people. Instead, I see focused team work, not soloing/ganking. Not in such an extended perspective as "normal" MMORPG's has.
So no, I don't think it will attract them. What is this opinion based on? What if they suck at teamwork? Then ganking would be the only way to make them feel better about their poor play skills. The bottom line is that there are always going to be people who will harass weaker players. The only question is how to shut them out of your game. The goal is to keep them from getting their thrill of being a pain in someone else's butt. I actually *Liked* the idea of bounty hunters spawning for people that were too high level for a zone. If you have to go into a lowbie zone for a quest, it would make it MORE fun to me to know that I'll have to dodge some opposition rather than just a timesink as I travel to the quest point.
... I really don't think WAR should be a paradise for such people. WAR world seem to become VERY organized to visit. The chance of being in a unbalanced team seems smaller than most other games (don't count GW here).
If you're a relentless, immature and ignorant person you'd want a free world with NO boundries where you can attack low-level people and do /spit at them afterwards. You'd seek the most vicious game ever just so that you can act out your vileness upon the weaker.
In WAR, I don't see any element of this that can satisfy theese people. Instead, I see focused team work, not soloing/ganking. Not in such an extended perspective as "normal" MMORPG's has.
So no, I don't think it will attract them.
What is this opinion based on? What if they suck at teamwork? Then ganking would be the only way to make them feel better about their poor play skills. The bottom line is that there are always going to be people who will harass weaker players. The only question is how to shut them out of your game. The goal is to keep them from getting their thrill of being a pain in someone else's butt. I actually *Liked* the idea of bounty hunters spawning for people that were too high level for a zone. If you have to go into a lowbie zone for a quest, it would make it MORE fun to me to know that I'll have to dodge some opposition rather than just a timesink as I travel to the quest point. From what I've understood so far:
"Ganking" will only be possible in the PvP zones in the Tier zones. People of the opposite side of WAR cannot enter your PvE zone.
A person cannot travel to the lower tier zones (and even if he could he just wouldn't be able to join the PvP zones).
So you'll never be able to encounter lower leveled players since they'll be locked away from you in one way or another.
I dunno about the Bounty Hunter idea, sound a bit odd to me but if you like it it might work. Thus I'm doubtful something like it will be in the game.
And the part about locking the "kiddies" from the game, well, we are just going to be hopeful that mythic listens to our /report transmissions we send and that they deal with them.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Why for gods sake would we need ganking in a game?
It's not even like the OPs solution is making it FFA it's just adding the possibility of ganking.
Of course it doesn't make sense that you wouldn't help your comrades in a fight you could win within seconds, but if you could help them you'd have the High levels all over the place and nowhere for the lowbies to go. Having high level assasins that kill high level players but not low level players doesn't make any sense to me too.
And I fail to see how enabling higher tier players to kill lower tier players in WAR helps with anything - they could only harm your enemy anyways. But if there's harassment going on it's more likely that, since you won't understand your enemys, it's coming from your own side whom they can't harm.
About corpse camping - did they even say they'd have that kind of death system?
Your enemy killed you because he's a twink with great equipment and you wan't to call some big guy to kill him back - that's even worse!
And come on the great challenge of evading your hunters ... go to the tier 4 zones you'll be hunted just as much without ganking anyone.
The whole FFA discussion is pointless anyways.
1. WAR is RVR not FFA - its not going to happen.
2. You'll have morons in your game, no matter what. Some will find a way to bother people and get away with it.
3. There are lot's of other ways to keep most of them from bothering you without FFA PVP. The first step would be an ignore function that lets you ignore whole accounts and visibly marks these players for you so that you don't invite any of their other toons into your group ever. That would shut down verbal harassment instantly - for you.
Tell their guild leaders. If there are enough complaints they're likely to get thrown out of their guild. Most guilds won't have a bad light cast on them. The best way is - have a close community which is hard on big servers - but once reputation matters most people will cut the crap.
FFA PVP should not be a way to deal with idiots in your game it's a gameplay style for people who like it.
By opening up the possibility to settle your disputes via PVP fights you also make it possible to harass people within game rules by killing them.
It all boils down to how much freedom you want in a game.
More Freedom means you have to take care of things on your own. Some people like that some people don't.
I don't think some idiot who tries to harass me is worth even a second of my time. I want to /report <name> <reason> /ignore <name> and be done with it.
And why would I want to give someone the pleasure of a pvp fight just for beeing an asshole.
Oh, yes I am a Carebear and I'm proud of it
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." ~J. Krishnamurti
Well we are both fighting for a FAIR PvP system, that doesn't sound anywhere near carebear to me More like "BRING IT ON!"
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Sorry, but I distinctly remember encountering people in PvP MUDs that did exactly those sorts of things. The difference is that MUDs are much much smaller scale and therefore it was fairly easy for the GMs to deal with those that didnt play fairly or within the rules. Most MMOs have /ignore style commands so you can avoid comments from such lowlife, but in order to prevent more direct forms of interference the MMO developers have had to take more drastic steps like looting rights, instanced dungeons, locked encounters, various measures to limit grey ganking (BGs, level difference restrictions on who can be attacked, etc). Banning is never an effective solution with MMOs, as it is too easy to get around it ... ban their credit card they just get a new one or use gamecards ... ban their address they just use a fake one ... ban/delete their account they just get a new one ... and banning IPs isnt a viable option as a lot of ISPs dont allocate fixed IPs. At the end of the day such bans probably boost the income of the MMO producer through additional game sales, banning certainly hasnt had much effect on the gold farmers! In the early days of MMOs there were less restrictions, but it soon became apparent that in order for the MMO experience to be enjoyable for most of their subscribers they had to start introducing more and more restrictions, the first of these being Trammel in UO and the consensual PvP system in EQ. Pure PvP MMOs/servers have tended to fail once one side gets ahead, or it becomes impossible to level up due to gankers, i.e. DAoC PvP servers, Shadowbane, RF Online, and many others. Normal DAoC servers and WoW got around this by having areas where you could level safely away from gankers, like instances and areas with PvP restrictions.
Then you and I have different experiences on MUDs, because I'm telling you, I have played several DIKU PK MUDs, and not one of them had issues with FFA PK. But as I said, they had lower pop and were therefore easier to manage.
The /ignore commands only work if you don't put a limit on how many people you can ignore...WoW seriously limited you in this regard. In fact, I had reached my limit in the first week and was having to clear space for new additions.
As for banning, obviously you can't ban an entire subnet without it seriously hampering sales/potential sales. But banning someone and deleting their accounts is somewhat effective. People have to reroll and regain all their lost eq, and that is not fun...even if they have to pay a gold farmer to do so, it costs time/money, and /played can be monitored along with game logs to monitor power lvling.
It's no excuse to not ban someone because it isn't a 100% effective solution. And I will tell you this, if the mature players aren't able to pound the annoying brats around like pinballs in FFA PvP, and if reporting doesn't result in bans, then a lot of the mature playerbase will be long gone. Mark my words, THIS is the major reason the WoW PvP servers are primarily kids...we adults left a long time ago.
Its not an over-generalisation at all, grey ganking is quite simply bullying, there is nothing to be gained from it other than getting one over on that particular person and by the nature of it there is nothing they can do about it. I have seen it in the majority of PvP MMOs I have played and for the most part it goes unpunished. In fact on most of them it is seen by the GM staff as part of the game, its only later when the player numbers start to dwindle and the remaining players begin whining about a lack of targets that they try and do something about it but by then it is too late. Do you honestly think killing the loudmouth's toon will solve the problem? In my experience it has zero effect, they just come back and continue, the only effective solution is to ignore them, afterall those sorts of idiots are just hoping you react to them much like the flamers you get on forums. Ignore them, they get bored soon enough and move on ... normally to WoW
It IS over-generalization...it is false logic pure and simple, ruling completely from the specific to the general. You can't say ALL people that want "gray ganking" to be bullies. A lot of us (not ALL I realize) want it to allow for community policing. Sorry, but I'm not playing a game to raise your kids. If one doesn't know how to teach their snot-nosed idiot right from wrong, I want to be able to make the game so miserable for them, that they won't come back and bother others. And yes, destroying little brats IS effective, and at least makes them think twice about their actions.
I realize there are those that simply want to pick on innocent low lvls. So why can't you enable a lot of the low lvl areas with tons of high lvl guards, that aggro? Guards are there for a reason anyways, how about using them?
... I really don't think WAR should be a paradise for such people. WAR world seem to become VERY organized to visit. The chance of being in a unbalanced team seems smaller than most other games (don't count GW here).
If you're a relentless, immature and ignorant person you'd want a free world with NO boundries where you can attack low-level people and do /spit at them afterwards. You'd seek the most vicious game ever just so that you can act out your vileness upon the weaker.
In WAR, I don't see any element of this that can satisfy theese people. Instead, I see focused team work, not soloing/ganking. Not in such an extended perspective as "normal" MMORPG's has.
So no, I don't think it will attract them.
Hehe I wish we knew each other IRL, because I'd bet $100 with you that you'll be wrong. There is NOTHING more friendly to vile players than carebear PvP. Now I'm not saying there should be all-out FFA PvP, rather I think there should be PvP with some minimal ruleset. For instance, guards should do their stinkin' jobs.
I'm telling you, this game is going to sell well. And it will attract a LOT of the WoW fanbase...and you will see a lot of the same behavior in-game, that you see on WoW PvP servers.
Like the previous poster said, it all comes down to whether or not you feel the community should do most of the policing. I do, because every system I've ever been where the policing is solely left to the GM, has been a total or partial failure. It's like when you centralize govt. too much...nothing gets accomplished in a reasonable amount of time, and too much power in the hands of potential morons (we all know that some GMs are indeed morons) is bad. So what happens if you disagree with a poor decision made by a GM? I've seen racist comments go unpunished for instance...it's not the norm, but it *does* happen.
I have no problems with carebears, provided they don't force their beliefs on everyone else. In other words, let the PvPers have their own FFA server and live in peace. That way, we can deal with situations the way we deem necessary.
It is better to encourage people to level to experience fun and meaningful PvP... Opposed to encouraging people to level so they can "gank" or avoid being "ganked."
Historically beeing a carebear is just that - wanting only fair fights - opposed to wanting all kinds of fights.
Nothing wrong with either side, but of course there are people who think there's always one right way of doing stuff - namely their own way.
So since you can't make "wanting only fair fights" sound bad, these people started to call it beeing a carebear to add some insult.
Now anytime I read "You're a Carebear" I translate it to "You only want fair fights" and I say "YES I AM A CAREBEAR".
It's hardly a fight when it's 3 vs 1 (equally), or a level 40000 vs a level 2 xD
And I refuse calling it a carebear, I am just an ordinary FAIRBEAR! I could try to gank somebody, thus I won't feel proud of it. I would only pick fights I feel pride of winning otherwise it's boring. I wanna be skilled for real.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
I agree that they shouldent give PvP awards(armor/weapons) with an over whelming amount of stats that will soon lead to an unfair advantage on the battlefield. Although, i still think they should give u equipment with that will enhance ur PvP/RvR.
For Example: I think that they should give u a certain amount of "award points" when u kill a specific amount of people, and u can gather those points together to buy Trophies/Trinkets. These Trinkets/Trophies will attach to ur armor and make it better, but u can only attach a certain amount of them on at once. For example, say i have a nice chest piece and i have 4 slots to put what ever trinkets i want on it, so i choose to put +2defense,+5attack,+2%attack speed,+15HP. After i put those on my armor i cant put anymore on since all 4 slots are filled. Say later on say i want to exchange one out, i can go to a "blacksmith/armor merchant"(or w/e you want to call it) to remove the trinkets/Trophies for a certain price based on the lvl of the Armor and how good the Trinket/Trophie is. You might be thinking "hey that still makes it un-even" . Those examples i was giving above where random stats and buffs, they could make the real ones a little bit more minor to stop over-powering in PvP/RvR. sure! the player still has an advantage but not a huge one. You have to think of it this way, the more u do something the better u get, so the more people fight the more experience they get out of it. And this experience can be shown in Trinkets/Trophies in the game.
Also abilites from RvR/PvP ::
Abilities in PvP/RvR sound great, but the struggle is having them balanced out, and not making one class rise above the rest and own. I think they should make it so the amount of Trophies/Trinkets u get on ur armor gives u "Specialization points" and each class has unique abilities,(to even it out) they can spec with those points to get thier unique abilities. For example say i have 6 Pieces of armor and each piece has 3 slots. 6x3=18 , then divide by 2 = 6 ( i divided by 2 to make it so u dont get an overwhelming amount of points) there for giving you 1 point ever 2 slots you fill. You take those points and put them in a skill. But theres a catch, each skill should have a rank, kinda like u spec once in it, it goes to lvl 1, then u spec again in it and now its lvl2 , blah blah blah. There for increasing the skill the more u spec in it, but also costing u more points to spec in it.
So in all:
So in all i think that they should make it so u pvp and get "award points" for a certain amount of players u kill, then u spend those points on Trinkets/Trophies and attach them to ur armor(which can only hold a certain amount)you can also remove them by going to a Armorer/Blacksmith and paying them a certain amount based on the lvl of ur armor and how good ur Trinket/Trophie is. The more Trophies you attach the more "Specialization points" you get letting you spec in ur specific class PvP/RvR abilities. u can increase these abilities by the more u spec in them but, that costs u more points each time. Although these sound over whelming and look like u can over power the other classes, they should set these Abilities andTrophies/Trinkets to minor amount, so that over-powering Pawnage wont arise when ur playing this game. Lastly the more u do something the better u get at it, i think this would be a great way to show ur experience in the game.
P.S.~They also shouldent make these abilities and Trinkets/Trophies impossible to get, they should be easy(for low lvls). As u gain more experience and get stronger ur trinkets should start costing more but also be better. For example: i am lvl 10 and my trinket gives me +1 armor and costs me 2 "award points". Then when i get to lvl 20 i get the same trinket but better, it adds +3 armor but costs 5 "arward points"
Comments
Wow...I'm starting to think us old MUDDERS are in the minority on the intentions of FFA PK/PvP. Most of us only wanted it to police the community or to pound "evils" (the other side of the racewar) into submission. I do understand people's concerns with corpse camping though...it is a nasty problem on MMOs, that we never really had to deal with on MUDs for some reason.
So for those of you against FFA PvP, what is your solution to policing the community and weeding out intolerable, bratty kids? Reporting to GMs is utterly useless and they don't learn squat from it. The only other effective solution is to ban them for breathing wrong, and you KNOW that's not going to happen (money money money).
Do you all really want to deal with the annoying behavior ever-present in WoW, and not be able to do anything about it? This game will be good enough to attract a lot of those sub-humans...
Anyway, WAR has the potencial to grow a very nasty zit (community) too if it attracts a majority of the WoW people. Thus WAR doesn't have a RTS background (kinda), tabletop shouldn't count cus those who does that are so in-depth in what they do their behaviours are only but fanboyism = only abusive in forums and outside the game.
Time will only tell. Thus you might be a bit wrong about WoW community, about what you can and cannot do. You can actually report every abusive person you see. Though this will get EXTREMELY repetetive very fast since there's so many there's always a chance the devs listen to your opinions. If the person doesn't change and gets too many warnings, then actions will be taken to stop that person.
If mythic cares about their community or not, I don't know deep down inside. But their current passion for the game says they do. If they get all EA over the game and only care about the money, which I am pretty sure they will depending on how strong EA's tongue matters, things could get VERY ugly.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
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And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
The real problem isnt that the game has these restrictions. The real problem is that the concept of honour and showing respect for fellow gamers is alien to certain MMO players, hence why we have ended up with such concepts as locked encounters, instanced dungeons and measures to prevent people ganking lowbies in PvP MMOs.
If this subset of the MMO populace was mentally mature enough not to kill steal, loot steal, gank lowbies or perform any other action that causes inappropriate grief to fellow gamers then the MMO developers would never have had to implement such concepts.
To be honest the only sort of gamers that complain about not being able to gank lowbies are quite simply spineless bullies ... the ones that lack the skill or guts to take on someone in a fair fight and therefore have to resort to picking on those unable to defend themselves.
I followed your logic up until the last paragraph, where you made the over-generalization that all people who want to gank lowbies are "bad news". I will tell you this: corpse camping is easy to manage on low pop servers, if the GMs step in and issue warnings. After all, that's not the true intent of FFA PvP. As for high pop servers, it's obviously more difficult.
I can guarantee you this though...if I start seeing a lot of the same behavior in WAR that I encountered in WoW, I will start off by reporting ad nauseum. After all, if I can't PK the idiot loudmouth, then I will use the only method at my disposal to retaliate. And, assuming it becomes as pervasive a problem as in WoW, you will see a gradual exodus of the mature player base.
Sorry, but I distinctly remember encountering people in PvP MUDs that did exactly those sorts of things. The difference is that MUDs are much much smaller scale and therefore it was fairly easy for the GMs to deal with those that didnt play fairly or within the rules.
Most MMOs have /ignore style commands so you can avoid comments from such lowlife, but in order to prevent more direct forms of interference the MMO developers have had to take more drastic steps like looting rights, instanced dungeons, locked encounters, various measures to limit grey ganking (BGs, level difference restrictions on who can be attacked, etc).
Banning is never an effective solution with MMOs, as it is too easy to get around it ... ban their credit card they just get a new one or use gamecards ... ban their address they just use a fake one ... ban/delete their account they just get a new one ... and banning IPs isnt a viable option as a lot of ISPs dont allocate fixed IPs. At the end of the day such bans probably boost the income of the MMO producer through additional game sales, banning certainly hasnt had much effect on the gold farmers!
In the early days of MMOs there were less restrictions, but it soon became apparent that in order for the MMO experience to be enjoyable for most of their subscribers they had to start introducing more and more restrictions, the first of these being Trammel in UO and the consensual PvP system in EQ. Pure PvP MMOs/servers have tended to fail once one side gets ahead, or it becomes impossible to level up due to gankers, i.e. DAoC PvP servers, Shadowbane, RF Online, and many others. Normal DAoC servers and WoW got around this by having areas where you could level safely away from gankers, like instances and areas with PvP restrictions.
Its not an over-generalisation at all, grey ganking is quite simply bullying, there is nothing to be gained from it other than getting one over on that particular person and by the nature of it there is nothing they can do about it. I have seen it in the majority of PvP MMOs I have played and for the most part it goes unpunished. In fact on most of them it is seen by the GM staff as part of the game, its only later when the player numbers start to dwindle and the remaining players begin whining about a lack of targets that they try and do something about it but by then it is too late.
Do you honestly think killing the loudmouth's toon will solve the problem? In my experience it has zero effect, they just come back and continue, the only effective solution is to ignore them, afterall those sorts of idiots are just hoping you react to them much like the flamers you get on forums. Ignore them, they get bored soon enough and move on ... normally to WoW
If you're a relentless, immature and ignorant person you'd want a free world with NO boundries where you can attack low-level people and do /spit at them afterwards. You'd seek the most vicious game ever just so that you can act out your vileness upon the weaker.
In WAR, I don't see any element of this that can satisfy theese people. Instead, I see focused team work, not soloing/ganking. Not in such an extended perspective as "normal" MMORPG's has.
So no, I don't think it will attract them.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
If you're a relentless, immature and ignorant person you'd want a free world with NO boundries where you can attack low-level people and do /spit at them afterwards. You'd seek the most vicious game ever just so that you can act out your vileness upon the weaker.
In WAR, I don't see any element of this that can satisfy theese people. Instead, I see focused team work, not soloing/ganking. Not in such an extended perspective as "normal" MMORPG's has.
So no, I don't think it will attract them. What is this opinion based on? What if they suck at teamwork? Then ganking would be the only way to make them feel better about their poor play skills. The bottom line is that there are always going to be people who will harass weaker players. The only question is how to shut them out of your game. The goal is to keep them from getting their thrill of being a pain in someone else's butt. I actually *Liked* the idea of bounty hunters spawning for people that were too high level for a zone. If you have to go into a lowbie zone for a quest, it would make it MORE fun to me to know that I'll have to dodge some opposition rather than just a timesink as I travel to the quest point.
"Ganking" will only be possible in the PvP zones in the Tier zones. People of the opposite side of WAR cannot enter your PvE zone.
A person cannot travel to the lower tier zones (and even if he could he just wouldn't be able to join the PvP zones).
So you'll never be able to encounter lower leveled players since they'll be locked away from you in one way or another.
I dunno about the Bounty Hunter idea, sound a bit odd to me but if you like it it might work. Thus I'm doubtful something like it will be in the game.
And the part about locking the "kiddies" from the game, well, we are just going to be hopeful that mythic listens to our /report transmissions we send and that they deal with them.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
It's not even like the OPs solution is making it FFA it's just adding the possibility of ganking.
Of course it doesn't make sense that you wouldn't help your comrades in a fight you could win within seconds, but if you could help them you'd have the High levels all over the place and nowhere for the lowbies to go. Having high level assasins that kill high level players but not low level players doesn't make any sense to me too.
And I fail to see how enabling higher tier players to kill lower tier players in WAR helps with anything - they could only harm your enemy anyways. But if there's harassment going on it's more likely that, since you won't understand your enemys, it's coming from your own side whom they can't harm.
About corpse camping - did they even say they'd have that kind of death system?
Your enemy killed you because he's a twink with great equipment and you wan't to call some big guy to kill him back - that's even worse!
And come on the great challenge of evading your hunters ... go to the tier 4 zones you'll be hunted just as much without ganking anyone.
The whole FFA discussion is pointless anyways.
1. WAR is RVR not FFA - its not going to happen.
2. You'll have morons in your game, no matter what. Some will find a way to bother people and get away with it.
3. There are lot's of other ways to keep most of them from bothering you without FFA PVP. The first step would be an ignore function that lets you ignore whole accounts and visibly marks these players for you so that you don't invite any of their other toons into your group ever. That would shut down verbal harassment instantly - for you.
Tell their guild leaders. If there are enough complaints they're likely to get thrown out of their guild. Most guilds won't have a bad light cast on them. The best way is - have a close community which is hard on big servers - but once reputation matters most people will cut the crap.
FFA PVP should not be a way to deal with idiots in your game it's a gameplay style for people who like it.
By opening up the possibility to settle your disputes via PVP fights you also make it possible to harass people within game rules by killing them.
It all boils down to how much freedom you want in a game.
More Freedom means you have to take care of things on your own. Some people like that some people don't.
I don't think some idiot who tries to harass me is worth even a second of my time. I want to /report <name> <reason> /ignore <name> and be done with it.
And why would I want to give someone the pleasure of a pvp fight just for beeing an asshole.
Oh, yes I am a Carebear and I'm proud of it
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
~J. Krishnamurti
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
Then you and I have different experiences on MUDs, because I'm telling you, I have played several DIKU PK MUDs, and not one of them had issues with FFA PK. But as I said, they had lower pop and were therefore easier to manage.
The /ignore commands only work if you don't put a limit on how many people you can ignore...WoW seriously limited you in this regard. In fact, I had reached my limit in the first week and was having to clear space for new additions.
As for banning, obviously you can't ban an entire subnet without it seriously hampering sales/potential sales. But banning someone and deleting their accounts is somewhat effective. People have to reroll and regain all their lost eq, and that is not fun...even if they have to pay a gold farmer to do so, it costs time/money, and /played can be monitored along with game logs to monitor power lvling.
It's no excuse to not ban someone because it isn't a 100% effective solution. And I will tell you this, if the mature players aren't able to pound the annoying brats around like pinballs in FFA PvP, and if reporting doesn't result in bans, then a lot of the mature playerbase will be long gone. Mark my words, THIS is the major reason the WoW PvP servers are primarily kids...we adults left a long time ago.
It IS over-generalization...it is false logic pure and simple, ruling completely from the specific to the general. You can't say ALL people that want "gray ganking" to be bullies. A lot of us (not ALL I realize) want it to allow for community policing. Sorry, but I'm not playing a game to raise your kids. If one doesn't know how to teach their snot-nosed idiot right from wrong, I want to be able to make the game so miserable for them, that they won't come back and bother others. And yes, destroying little brats IS effective, and at least makes them think twice about their actions.
I realize there are those that simply want to pick on innocent low lvls. So why can't you enable a lot of the low lvl areas with tons of high lvl guards, that aggro? Guards are there for a reason anyways, how about using them?
Hehe I wish we knew each other IRL, because I'd bet $100 with you that you'll be wrong. There is NOTHING more friendly to vile players than carebear PvP. Now I'm not saying there should be all-out FFA PvP, rather I think there should be PvP with some minimal ruleset. For instance, guards should do their stinkin' jobs.
I'm telling you, this game is going to sell well. And it will attract a LOT of the WoW fanbase...and you will see a lot of the same behavior in-game, that you see on WoW PvP servers.
Like the previous poster said, it all comes down to whether or not you feel the community should do most of the policing. I do, because every system I've ever been where the policing is solely left to the GM, has been a total or partial failure. It's like when you centralize govt. too much...nothing gets accomplished in a reasonable amount of time, and too much power in the hands of potential morons (we all know that some GMs are indeed morons) is bad. So what happens if you disagree with a poor decision made by a GM? I've seen racist comments go unpunished for instance...it's not the norm, but it *does* happen.
I have no problems with carebears, provided they don't force their beliefs on everyone else. In other words, let the PvPers have their own FFA server and live in peace. That way, we can deal with situations the way we deem necessary.
If not: Nevermind
@Durahell
Historically beeing a carebear is just that - wanting only fair fights - opposed to wanting all kinds of fights.
Nothing wrong with either side, but of course there are people who think there's always one right way of doing stuff - namely their own way.
So since you can't make "wanting only fair fights" sound bad, these people started to call it beeing a carebear to add some insult.
Now anytime I read "You're a Carebear" I translate it to "You only want fair fights" and I say "YES I AM A CAREBEAR".
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
~J. Krishnamurti
It's hardly a fight when it's 3 vs 1 (equally), or a level 40000 vs a level 2 xD
And I refuse calling it a carebear, I am just an ordinary FAIRBEAR! I could try to gank somebody, thus I won't feel proud of it. I would only pick fights I feel pride of winning otherwise it's boring. I wanna be skilled for real.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
I agree that they shouldent give PvP awards(armor/weapons) with an over whelming amount of stats that will soon lead to an unfair advantage on the battlefield. Although, i still think they should give u equipment with that will enhance ur PvP/RvR.
For Example: I think that they should give u a certain amount of "award points" when u kill a specific amount of people, and u can gather those points together to buy Trophies/Trinkets. These Trinkets/Trophies will attach to ur armor and make it better, but u can only attach a certain amount of them on at once. For example, say i have a nice chest piece and i have 4 slots to put what ever trinkets i want on it, so i choose to put +2defense,+5attack,+2%attack speed,+15HP. After i put those on my armor i cant put anymore on since all 4 slots are filled. Say later on say i want to exchange one out, i can go to a "blacksmith/armor merchant"(or w/e you want to call it) to remove the trinkets/Trophies for a certain price based on the lvl of the Armor and how good the Trinket/Trophie is. You might be thinking "hey that still makes it un-even" . Those examples i was giving above where random stats and buffs, they could make the real ones a little bit more minor to stop over-powering in PvP/RvR. sure! the player still has an advantage but not a huge one. You have to think of it this way, the more u do something the better u get, so the more people fight the more experience they get out of it. And this experience can be shown in Trinkets/Trophies in the game.
Also abilites from RvR/PvP ::
Abilities in PvP/RvR sound great, but the struggle is having them balanced out, and not making one class rise above the rest and own. I think they should make it so the amount of Trophies/Trinkets u get on ur armor gives u "Specialization points" and each class has unique abilities,(to even it out) they can spec with those points to get thier unique abilities. For example say i have 6 Pieces of armor and each piece has 3 slots. 6x3=18 , then divide by 2 = 6 ( i divided by 2 to make it so u dont get an overwhelming amount of points) there for giving you 1 point ever 2 slots you fill. You take those points and put them in a skill. But theres a catch, each skill should have a rank, kinda like u spec once in it, it goes to lvl 1, then u spec again in it and now its lvl2 , blah blah blah. There for increasing the skill the more u spec in it, but also costing u more points to spec in it.
So in all:
So in all i think that they should make it so u pvp and get "award points" for a certain amount of players u kill, then u spend those points on Trinkets/Trophies and attach them to ur armor(which can only hold a certain amount)you can also remove them by going to a Armorer/Blacksmith and paying them a certain amount based on the lvl of ur armor and how good ur Trinket/Trophie is. The more Trophies you attach the more "Specialization points" you get letting you spec in ur specific class PvP/RvR abilities. u can increase these abilities by the more u spec in them but, that costs u more points each time. Although these sound over whelming and look like u can over power the other classes, they should set these Abilities andTrophies/Trinkets to minor amount, so that over-powering Pawnage wont arise when ur playing this game. Lastly the more u do something the better u get at it, i think this would be a great way to show ur experience in the game.
P.S.~They also shouldent make these abilities and Trinkets/Trophies impossible to get, they should be easy(for low lvls). As u gain more experience and get stronger ur trinkets should start costing more but also be better. For example: i am lvl 10 and my trinket gives me +1 armor and costs me 2 "award points". Then when i get to lvl 20 i get the same trinket but better, it adds +3 armor but costs 5 "arward points"
Comments on this would be gladly accepted
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lvl50Hero~RR4
lvl50Minstrel~RR6
lvl60Pally
This doesn't make any sense here stop spamming for postcount.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
~J. Krishnamurti