Oh the irony. Your whole arguement is PURE speculation, According to you, people after 8 months left because of Trammel. this is speculation, you have nothing to back it up.You say "But hey look, it stopped growing! If you actually open your eyes and look at that same chart you keep refering to, then you see that EVERY mmorpg at some point stopped growing after a certain amount of time, WITHOUT an expansion killing it.
Did Asherons Call released a "klling" expansion around january 2001? No it didn't.
Did Everquest did at around july 2003? Nope.
Final Fantasy XI between January 2005 and January 2006? Nope.
Everquest 2 at January 2005? Nope.
If the gamer shortly after trammel started to LOSE players, then you would at least have a tiny arguement to stand it on. but it didn't, UO's subscriber base kept growing. Not as fast, which is natural, since the game AGED. it was OLD.
I don't know about all those games you listed... but Dark Age of Camelot released the game killing TOA expansion.. so at least one game has to go on the list.....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Aquakitty WOW is very challenging, to get to the top. it requires diplomacy, good relations with others, as well as ability to play.
lol If by challenging you mean time, then yes. If by diplomacy you mean time, then yes.
I don't know about all those games you listed... but Dark Age of Camelot released the game killing TOA expansion.. so at least one game has to go on the list.....
Tell me more about your opinion of TOA, Kyleran.
As for Gameloading, apparently things need to be repeated many times before he understands. This graph is not an opinion or speculation, it's based on facts, subscription numbers plotted over time. The only opinion is mine in green, supported by the facts. Where are your facts to back up the claim that Trammel did not change UO drastically enough to cause the loss and lack of growth. Don't forget the fact that the "3d" expansion was announced after Trammel failed to show much growth - that is the short spike in subscriptions following Trammel. However UO 3d was also a disaster. And where are your facts to support your claim that Trammel was more successful than pre-Trammel? You have presented lots of opinions, but no facts to back them up.
If you have to argue about a fictitious online world and the people that play it to cool off after a day of work, you are just plain PATHETIC. No really, Western Civilization collapases because of these people, it's just a damn GAME for God's sake. Now, stop being an elitist, who constantly have to resort to such childish means to give themselves the illusion that they are somehow better. Ah, virtual Hitlerism, it's an irony within an irony.
And oh sempiternal, such a cast iron head I have never seen before, dueling with gameloading, who is far out of your league, if only Kiamde was still active...
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
If you have to argue about a fictitious online world and the people that play it to cool off after a day of work, you are just plain PATHETIC. No really, Western Civilization collapases because of these people, it's just a damn GAME for God's sake. Now, stop being an elitist, who constantly have to resort to such childish means to give themselves the illusion that they are somehow better. Ah, virtual Hitlerism, it's an irony within an irony.
And oh sempiternal, such a cast iron head I have never seen before, dueling with gameloading, who is far out of your league, if only Kiamde was still active...
Just wanted to quote you, for the humor of it. And so you can't change it. That's all.
I don't know about all those games you listed... but Dark Age of Camelot released the game killing TOA expansion.. so at least one game has to go on the list.....
Tell me more about your opinion of TOA, Kyleran.
As for Gameloading, apparently things need to be repeated many times before he understands. This graph is not an opinion or speculation, it's based on facts, subscription numbers plotted over time. The only opinion is mine in green, supported by the facts. Where are your facts to back up the claim that Trammel did not change UO drastically enough to cause the loss and lack of growth. Don't forget the fact that the "3d" expansion was announced after Trammel failed to show much growth - that is the short spike in subscriptions following Trammel. However UO 3d was also a disaster. And where are your facts to support your claim that Trammel was more successful than pre-Trammel? You have presented lots of opinions, but no facts to back them up.
Likewise, I'll point it out one more time:
it IS speculation, it is NOT fact.
Your post summed up: " Trammel is the cause of the lack of growth after its release".
Your facts to back it up? None.
As I have said numberous time, My point is speculation as well, I merely point out that the theory the growth slowed down because of UO's age makes a lot more sense then the theory its all because of Trammel, because others games also drop down in numbers after a certain amount of time.
Gameloading, you don't even understand the posts you are replying to. Give me some facts to back up what you believe. I have given you all kinds of facts and each and every time you have responded with nothing but your opinion, what's the point of that?
Gameloading, you don't even understand the posts you are replying to. Give me some facts to back up what you believe. I have given you all kinds of facts and each and every time you have responded with nothing but your opinion, what's the point of that?
Please read my post again.
You gave some facts, but none that support your arguement, and thats the issue here.
Originally posted by sempiternal Originally posted by Gamewize If you have to argue about a fictitious online world and the people that play it to cool off after a day of work, you are just plain PATHETIC. No really, Western Civilization collapases because of these people, it's just a damn GAME for God's sake. Now, stop being an elitist, who constantly have to resort to such childish means to give themselves the illusion that they are somehow better. Ah, virtual Hitlerism, it's an irony within an irony.
And oh sempiternal, such a cast iron head I have never seen before, dueling with gameloading, who is far out of your league, if only Kiamde was still active...
Just wanted to quote you, for the humor of it. And so you can't change it. That's all.
What's humorous is you actually THINK im kidding; and change my post? Im actually quite proud of my statements and content with them.
Im being quite serious, if you have to argue about a game and insult the people who play it, it is incredibly pathetic, I could argue virtual politics all day long but I neither want to argue a point that is moot for all sides involved, nor wish to invoke Game Choice War 7 (or is it 8? 9? 17?).
Games and MMOGs currently exist for a single reason, entertainment. If you can't deal with the way some people entertain themselves, guess you'll just have to kick and scream your lungs out since few are still listening at this point.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
When you have a steadily growing service and suddenly you drastically change that service, don't expect your existing customers to be happy; you gained them as customers because they appreciated the service you were already offering.
The facts do support my argument. And here is how. When we look at the graph of UO customers and the drastic change of Trammel coincides with a loss in growth (six months after the release of Trammel UO had only grown by 15k) and then begins losing customers shortly after the spike surrounding another failed release (3d), it's more likely than not that these drastic changes had something to do with the losses, especially in an expanding market.
Of course, the other factor is simply that the Ultima Online service was not kept competitive. But, this was also compounded by the same drastic Trammel change, in that it made Ultima Online compete more specifically in the consensual sector of the market. When UO was a non-consensual virtual world it was offering something different from the other MMOGs. When UO went consensual it started competing directly with the other consensual games, but with outdated technology. Electronic Arts did try to "fix" their technology by releasing a semi "3d" version, but they did a terrible job on that too.
So, while the consensual Everquest kept growing, the consensual 2d UO did not. If you enjoy consensual games why play the old 2d UO when you have an attracitve 3d consensual EQ. UO's problems got worse when the non-consensual DAoC picked up the reigns and filled the gap with a real 3d non-consensual game.
What is ironic is that players like me that enjoyed the original UO virtual world are the types that could care less about the latest graphics and would still be playing, even in 2d.
People want to like Ultima Online, but it's being terribly mismanaged by Electronic Arts, they are just keeping it alive to milk current customers and maintain the value of the IP until they can finally get another MMOG going.
Originally posted by ginfress01 Originally posted by Ulujain
Originally posted by sempiternal Oh great, another worthless post from Gameloading...
That's why I have him on ignore. Do the same and enjoy the decrease in noise/signal ratio. He always makes sure he backup's his posts with value, you and your other friends are just meaningless trolls so yes /block indeed.
I wouldnt say meaningless trolls, they do also backup their posts, but for the most part, I applaud you.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Gameloading, Gamewize, please stop feeding this troll.
I know I don't have any moral high ground when it comes to agitating trolls, but this little flame war got boring about 4 pages back. While Zaxtor and Rentantilius were general pains in the ass, they were never boring. This guy is a broken record and blind to boot. Sorry Semp, but the visual aid you employ in this debate contradicts your thesis. The fact that you can't see that is sad on many levels, but I'm not going to belabor the point. A good pissing contest is fun to watch. Seeing someone beat their heads against a wall of ad nauseum fueled by willful ignorance is boring as hell.
Gameloading, Gamewize, please stop feeding this troll.
I know I don't have any moral high ground when it comes to agitating trolls, but this little flame war got boring about 4 pages back. While Zaxtor and Rentantilius were general pains in the ass, they were never boring. This guy is a broken record and blind to boot. Sorry Semp, but the visual aid you employ in this debate contradicts your thesis. The fact that you can't see that is sad on many levels, but I'm not going to belabor the point. A good pissing contest is fun to watch. Seeing someone beat their heads against a wall of ad nauseum fueled by willful ignorance is boring as hell.
Jimmy_Scythe, please stop trolling about "trolling."
For a post worthless to the discussion, insulting, complete opinion, no visual aids, no "thesis", nothing on the topic at all...
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe Gameloading, Gamewize, please stop feeding this troll.I know I don't have any moral high ground when it comes to agitating trolls, but this little flame war got boring about 4 pages back. While Zaxtor and Rentantilius were general pains in the ass, they were never boring. This guy is a broken record and blind to boot. Sorry Semp, but the visual aid you employ in this debate contradicts your thesis. The fact that you can't see that is sad on many levels, but I'm not going to belabor the point. A good pissing contest is fun to watch. Seeing someone beat their heads against a wall of ad nauseum fueled by willful ignorance is boring as hell.
Well, since nothing gets through Semp, your pretty much right, still, his/her insults are pretty hilarious, It's just so fun to poke and prod, but I desist, best not to let counter-arguements become flames themselves.
So long, Sempi, I shall never forget the giggles until tommorow.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
I believe what you should be asking yourself is "Shouldn't game developers be ashamed of the MMO's they have falsed us to embrace" 2006 was a terrible year for MMO's, 2007 will be better, there are 6-10 titles coming out that are anticipated.
Most of us have settled for the WOW grind while we wait, But soon as a 2007 mmorpg comes out, Im leaving wow, and so will others, no questions asked.
Well, since nothing gets through Semp, your pretty much right, still, his/her insults are pretty hilarious, It's just so fun to poke and prod, but I desist, best not to let counter-arguements become flames themselves. So long, Sempi, I shall never forget the giggles until tommorow.
Originally posted by sempiternal
Originally posted by Gamewize So now we're name calling? Sempi, now surely we're more mature than that? And you say it's pathetic for me becuase I only spend the time posting about these specific people, well honestly your the only ones who need this kind of attention because you can't get it through your heads. And yes, your doign little more than a kick-and-scream, and only gameloading and I are really taking the time to humor ourselves at your tantrum. Ah insults, how quickly they are used.
So, let's see how moronic you really are being, just within a few posts;
1. You complain about name calling as if it's not mature, while at the same time you call people pathetic. By your own standards you are not mature.
2. You are still wasting your time only posting about the people that are posting about games and the people that play them, calling them pathetic. You never answered me, so what does that make you, Gamewize? Since you may not get it, you are even more pathetic, by your own standards.
3. Now you admit that the way you spend your time is following around these specific "pathetic" people posting about them, trying to get it through their heads that they are pathetic.
Can you dig your hole any deeper? And the answer is...
...yes. The answer is yes. Gamewize is still here following around the "pathetic" and posting about how pathetic they are posting about about others.
By his own standards, Gamewize must be the most "pathetic" person here. He can't even help himself and leave.
Streets of Rage Remake All the characters and levels from all 4 SoR games in one massive remake, tied together with a single storyline, and featuring a number of graphics tweaks.
Super Columbine Massacre TBH, I haven't gotten to play this yet. I feel kind of morally conflicted about this one. Thus far, it's been installed on my HD.... mocking me.....
Mutant League Hockey While I still love ML Football, this game had a much faster pace and a lot more content.
It seems to me that the current crop of mmorpg's are like a long series of books in which the only thing that changes from one book to the next are the names of the characters and illustrations. The illustrations get prettier as you go along but the story is always the same, as such the series grows stagnant and consumers get annoyed. I do not think that we as gamers are being shallow for embracing the games of the genre that we love to play, we have to work with what we have been offered. Just as one would not starve themselves if they were not offered their favorite food every night, we do not let the imperfections of mmo's keep us from playing....
The only computer games I would even consider playing are MMOGs.
If that's really the way you feel, then maybe it's time that you tried making one. At the very least you could put together a MUD. Here are a few tools to help you on your way...
RPG Toolkit You'll have to write your own server and plugin for this, but it's easily as powerful as the Infinity Engine that was used in the Baldur's Gate series.
Anyway, that should cover everything you would need to set up a small MMO (1500 concurrent players, 5000 population total) of the same quality of UO or EQ1.
Let's face it, playing or making games is more fun that bitching about them.
Leave it to old Jimmy_Scythe to put down a flame war. You should get a mediator award.
Anyway, with words said and done, im sure all of us, including sempi, can once again forgive each other and totally a reverse an otherwise unproductive topic into a wealth of information, or something like that.
Edit:
Let's face it, playing or making games is more fun that bitching about them.
Quoted for absolute truth.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Quote that for absolute truth may be fraught with danger - there's been occasions where having a good whine about a game has been more fun than playing it. The Sims Online is one example I can personally cite.
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
lol
If by challenging you mean time, then yes.
If by diplomacy you mean time, then yes.
Tell me more about your opinion of TOA, Kyleran.
As for Gameloading, apparently things need to be repeated many times before he understands. This graph is not an opinion or speculation, it's based on facts, subscription numbers plotted over time. The only opinion is mine in green, supported by the facts. Where are your facts to back up the claim that Trammel did not change UO drastically enough to cause the loss and lack of growth. Don't forget the fact that the "3d" expansion was announced after Trammel failed to show much growth - that is the short spike in subscriptions following Trammel. However UO 3d was also a disaster. And where are your facts to support your claim that Trammel was more successful than pre-Trammel? You have presented lots of opinions, but no facts to back them up.
If you have to argue about a fictitious online world and the people that play it to cool off after a day of work, you are just plain PATHETIC. No really, Western Civilization collapases because of these people, it's just a damn GAME for God's sake. Now, stop being an elitist, who constantly have to resort to such childish means to give themselves the illusion that they are somehow better. Ah, virtual Hitlerism, it's an irony within an irony.
And oh sempiternal, such a cast iron head I have never seen before, dueling with gameloading, who is far out of your league, if only Kiamde was still active...
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Just wanted to quote you, for the humor of it. And so you can't change it. That's all.
That's why I have him on ignore. Do the same and enjoy the decrease in noise/signal ratio.
Tell me more about your opinion of TOA, Kyleran.
As for Gameloading, apparently things need to be repeated many times before he understands. This graph is not an opinion or speculation, it's based on facts, subscription numbers plotted over time. The only opinion is mine in green, supported by the facts. Where are your facts to back up the claim that Trammel did not change UO drastically enough to cause the loss and lack of growth. Don't forget the fact that the "3d" expansion was announced after Trammel failed to show much growth - that is the short spike in subscriptions following Trammel. However UO 3d was also a disaster. And where are your facts to support your claim that Trammel was more successful than pre-Trammel? You have presented lots of opinions, but no facts to back them up.
Likewise, I'll point it out one more time:it IS speculation, it is NOT fact.
Your post summed up: " Trammel is the cause of the lack of growth after its release".
Your facts to back it up? None.
As I have said numberous time, My point is speculation as well, I merely point out that the theory the growth slowed down because of UO's age makes a lot more sense then the theory its all because of Trammel, because others games also drop down in numbers after a certain amount of time.
You gave some facts, but none that support your arguement, and thats the issue here.
Just wanted to quote you, for the humor of it. And so you can't change it. That's all.
What's humorous is you actually THINK im kidding; and change my post? Im actually quite proud of my statements and content with them.
Im being quite serious, if you have to argue about a game and insult the people who play it, it is incredibly pathetic, I could argue virtual politics all day long but I neither want to argue a point that is moot for all sides involved, nor wish to invoke Game Choice War 7 (or is it 8? 9? 17?).
Games and MMOGs currently exist for a single reason, entertainment. If you can't deal with the way some people entertain themselves, guess you'll just have to kick and scream your lungs out since few are still listening at this point.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
When you have a steadily growing service and suddenly you drastically change that service, don't expect your existing customers to be happy; you gained them as customers because they appreciated the service you were already offering.
The facts do support my argument. And here is how. When we look at the graph of UO customers and the drastic change of Trammel coincides with a loss in growth (six months after the release of Trammel UO had only grown by 15k) and then begins losing customers shortly after the spike surrounding another failed release (3d), it's more likely than not that these drastic changes had something to do with the losses, especially in an expanding market.
Of course, the other factor is simply that the Ultima Online service was not kept competitive. But, this was also compounded by the same drastic Trammel change, in that it made Ultima Online compete more specifically in the consensual sector of the market. When UO was a non-consensual virtual world it was offering something different from the other MMOGs. When UO went consensual it started competing directly with the other consensual games, but with outdated technology. Electronic Arts did try to "fix" their technology by releasing a semi "3d" version, but they did a terrible job on that too.
So, while the consensual Everquest kept growing, the consensual 2d UO did not. If you enjoy consensual games why play the old 2d UO when you have an attracitve 3d consensual EQ. UO's problems got worse when the non-consensual DAoC picked up the reigns and filled the gap with a real 3d non-consensual game.
What is ironic is that players like me that enjoyed the original UO virtual world are the types that could care less about the latest graphics and would still be playing, even in 2d.
People want to like Ultima Online, but it's being terribly mismanaged by Electronic Arts, they are just keeping it alive to milk current customers and maintain the value of the IP until they can finally get another MMOG going.
That's why I have him on ignore. Do the same and enjoy the decrease in noise/signal ratio.
He always makes sure he backup's his posts with value, you and your other friends are just meaningless trolls so yes /block indeed.
That's why I have him on ignore. Do the same and enjoy the decrease in noise/signal ratio.
He always makes sure he backup's his posts with value, you and your other friends are just meaningless trolls so yes /block indeed.
I wouldnt say meaningless trolls, they do also backup their posts, but for the most part, I applaud you.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
I know I don't have any moral high ground when it comes to agitating trolls, but this little flame war got boring about 4 pages back. While Zaxtor and Rentantilius were general pains in the ass, they were never boring. This guy is a broken record and blind to boot. Sorry Semp, but the visual aid you employ in this debate contradicts your thesis. The fact that you can't see that is sad on many levels, but I'm not going to belabor the point. A good pissing contest is fun to watch. Seeing someone beat their heads against a wall of ad nauseum fueled by willful ignorance is boring as hell.
Jimmy_Scythe, please stop trolling about "trolling."
For a post worthless to the discussion, insulting, complete opinion, no visual aids, no "thesis", nothing on the topic at all...
...you can count on Jimmy_Scythe, Troll Lord
Back on topic though, you are one of those that still plays UO, aren't you Jimmy?
Well, since nothing gets through Semp, your pretty much right, still, his/her insults are pretty hilarious, It's just so fun to poke and prod, but I desist, best not to let counter-arguements become flames themselves.
So long, Sempi, I shall never forget the giggles until tommorow.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Most of us have settled for the WOW grind while we wait, But soon as a 2007 mmorpg comes out, Im leaving wow, and so will others, no questions asked.
So, let's see how moronic you really are being, just within a few posts;
1. You complain about name calling as if it's not mature, while at the same time you call people pathetic. By your own standards you are not mature.
2. You are still wasting your time only posting about the people that are posting about games and the people that play them, calling them pathetic. You never answered me, so what does that make you, Gamewize? Since you may not get it, you are even more pathetic, by your own standards.
3. Now you admit that the way you spend your time is following around these specific "pathetic" people posting about them, trying to get it through their heads that they are pathetic.
Can you dig your hole any deeper? And the answer is...
...yes. The answer is yes. Gamewize is still here following around the "pathetic" and posting about how pathetic they are posting about about others.
By his own standards, Gamewize must be the most "pathetic" person here. He can't even help himself and leave.
Nope, I've backed away from MMORPGs in order to get back to my gaming roots.
Currently I'm playing:
Titanion because Kenta Cho is a living God!!
Worlds of Ultima: Savage Empire I missed this one the first time around and I heard this one was awesome.
Frontier: Elite 2 Before there was Eve Online, this was the space sim to play. And it's infinitely replayable.
Ancient Domains of Mystery If you only play one Rogue-like in your life, it should be this one.
FastCrawl Raid a dungeon in 30 minutes or less.
Streets of Rage Remake All the characters and levels from all 4 SoR games in one massive remake, tied together with a single storyline, and featuring a number of graphics tweaks.
Super Columbine Massacre TBH, I haven't gotten to play this yet. I feel kind of morally conflicted about this one. Thus far, it's been installed on my HD.... mocking me.....
Mutant League Hockey While I still love ML Football, this game had a much faster pace and a lot more content.
Abuse You have got to try this!!!
Aside from that I've also been playing around with the Torque Game Builder and trying to put together olde skool games that I would enjoy playing.
Maybe when they make an MMO that I think is worth playing.....
And yes, I play Guild Wars, but I don't want to get into the "GW isn't an MMO" thing again.
sempiternal wrote:
The only computer games I would even consider playing are MMOGs.
If that's really the way you feel, then maybe it's time that you tried making one. At the very least you could put together a MUD. Here are a few tools to help you on your way...
Torque Shader Engine Solid 3D engine with a good community behind it.
Titas This is a straight port of MMOKit to the TSE. MMOKit is for the original Torque Game engine.
If 3D game content is too rough, and it is for most traditional artists and non-artists, then you could use some of these fine 2D engines.
VBGore
Elysium Blue and Greentail These are both the same project. Don't ask
RPG Toolkit You'll have to write your own server and plugin for this, but it's easily as powerful as the Infinity Engine that was used in the Baldur's Gate series.
Anyway, that should cover everything you would need to set up a small MMO (1500 concurrent players, 5000 population total) of the same quality of UO or EQ1.
Let's face it, playing or making games is more fun that bitching about them.
Leave it to old Jimmy_Scythe to put down a flame war.
You should get a mediator award.
Anyway, with words said and done, im sure all of us, including sempi, can once again forgive each other and totally a reverse an otherwise unproductive topic into a wealth of information, or something like that.
Edit:
Quoted for absolute truth.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Quote that for absolute truth may be fraught with danger - there's been occasions where having a good whine about a game has been more fun than playing it. The Sims Online is one example I can personally cite.
But, in the main, you're spot on.