fixed links for you because I could not click on them in the original post. I honestly don't think any of them look bad. The LoTR ones look more artistic as in they look like a painting. I think I prefer that over the more plastic pseudo realism look, but that is just personal preference I suppose. I played EQII for years even though I was not crazy about it's graphics. DAoC characters were the ugliest in history and I played that for years also. I am much more interested in which game provides the most immersion and best game play is in "is it fun". If it ain't fun then all the graphics in the world will not matter. By the way for the poster above me - just cause I cannot paint a master piece does not mean I cannoit tell a Van Gogh from a velvet Elvis painting.
For me AoC looks the best and both LOTRO and AoC have great gfx engines yet the worlds look full and not just made with a landscape generator then devs stuck in a tree here a hut there (im aware all games do this, but its obvious in VG), Aslo VG looks liek plastic, everthing has had a bumpmap and it just makes it all shinny.
But hey you forgot WoW Sure not as fanny gfx engine.. but stunning visuals all the same.
fixed links for you because I could not click on them in the original post. I honestly don't think any of them look bad. The LoTR ones look more artistic as in they look like a painting. I think I prefer that over the more plastic pseudo realism look, but that is just personal preference I suppose. I played EQII for years even though I was not crazy about it's graphics. DAoC characters were the ugliest in history and I played that for years also. I am much more interested in which game provides the most immersion and best game play is in "is it fun". If it ain't fun then all the graphics in the world will not matter. By the way for the poster above me - just cause I cannot paint a master piece does not mean I cannoit tell a Van Gogh from a velvet Elvis painting.
well, I wont argue that vanguard falls way short of Age of Conan as well as Lord of the Rings. The one thing both games seem to be using that (for whatever reason) is disabled in vanguard is "lighting bloom" (aside from a more creative artist)
and I agree vanguard could use this, hopefully this option will be enabled soon *shrugs*. It IS an option in the graphics settings menu, but for whatever reason its disabled currently and doesnt work.
what bloom does is softens edges and gives the world a bit more of a vibrant look. reflections look fantastic, lighting looks incredible but it makes the game look a bit more extraordinary. someone a while back posted on the official VG and edited numerous screenshots to show what the "bloom" effect would do for the game. It looked stunning. it majorly reduces this "plastic" effect that you see in games like Vanguard and EQ2. A lot of MMO's use this, its very predominant in Age of Conan and Lord of the Rings, it makes a huge difference.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
I completely disagree with manveru. I feel like the environment is more alive and real then any game I have ever played. They did a great job with the little things. Like how the light of your torch reflects off of cave walls or how trees actually fall down when harvesting them for wood. The character models aren't anything great but when you compare it to something like WoW that has 3 different faces, 2 or 3 hairstyles, and some facial hairy depending on your race you respect the customibility of Vanguard.
I do enjoy how you bring up CoH which is more plastic then Vanguard and Everquest II in every regard.
Not to bash any of the games but I think the plastic look is a style all its own. Obviously they weren't going for too real because no human has that glossy finish . If you can't appreciate it for what it is then that's your own opinion and you are allowed that. Personally I think WoW looks like a complete mess, especially in areas with alot of people. It doesn't look like an 8 million sub game, it looks like a poorly made f2p Korean game. That's my opinion and you are allowed yours. I think some of Vanguard's models look great, especially my Wood Elf. The problem with the models is that they all look too humanoid. I feel like the used the same model and stuck a different texture on it. It's disappointing because if they put more effort into the models the game might be a little more enjoyable for me.
I completely disagree with manveru. I feel like the environment is more alive and real then any game I have ever played. They did a great job with the little things. Like how the light of your torch reflects off of cave walls or how trees actually fall down when harvesting them for wood. The character models aren't anything great but when you compare it to something like WoW that has 3 different faces, 2 or 3 hairstyles, and some facial hairy depending on your race you respect the customibility of Vanguard. I do enjoy how you bring up CoH which is more plastic then Vanguard and Everquest II in every regard. Not to bash any of the games but I think the plastic look is a style all its own. Obviously they weren't going for too real because no human has that glossy finish . If you can't appreciate it for what it is then that's your own opinion and you are allowed that. Personally I think WoW looks like a complete mess, especially in areas with alot of people. It doesn't look like an 8 million sub game, it looks like a poorly made f2p Korean game. That's my opinion and you are allowed yours. I think some of Vanguard's models look great, especially my Wood Elf. The problem with the models is that they all look too humanoid. I feel like the used the same model and stuck a different texture on it. It's disappointing because if they put more effort into the models the game might be a little more enjoyable for me.
Agree WoW could use a bit more customization, dyes for cloths would solve that.
Originally posted by pb1285n I completely disagree with manveru. I feel like the environment is more alive and real then any game I have ever played. They did a great job with the little things. Like how the light of your torch reflects off of cave walls or how trees actually fall down when harvesting them for wood.
I think the opinions made here are just talking about the images, not animations or those little things your talking about, which as you said, can make a game even more real.
Originally posted by pb1285n I do enjoy how you bring up CoH which is more plastic then Vanguard and Everquest II in every regard.
I supose you talking about conan right? If that's the case, then you should give a better look to those images and tell me where do you see something "plastic", because i dont see any.....
Or you can show me 1 picture, if you find 1 of course.....
Originally posted by pb1285n Not to bash any of the games but I think the plastic look is a style all its own. Obviously they weren't going for too real because no human has that glossy finish .
I'm srry, but i think they've made the game to look real, but unfortunatly they used the bumpmapping in the wrong way, making the character with a glossy look.
I'm not saying that Vanguard is a bad game, i'm just saying it could have better graphics, that's all.
Originally posted by Rattrap There is very easy workaround. Put normal mapping to 0% (yes for some reason they labeled bump mapping - normal mapping ?!)
"Normal mapping is sometimes referred to as "Dot3 bump mapping". While bump mapping perturbs the existing normal (the way the surface is facing) of a model, normal mapping replaces the normal entirely. Like bump mapping, it is used to add details to shading without using more polygons. But where a bump map is usually calculated based on a single-channel (interpreted as grayscale) image, the source for the normals in normal mapping is usually a multichannel image (that is, channels for "red", "green" and "blue" as opposed to just a single color) derived from a set of more detailed versions of the objects."
From wikipedia. Click here to see more about the subject.
Thanks for making this topic, I can totally vent in it about how I feel about these badly done graphics and help people understand why thier computers run this game like shit.
Models
The Models simply are not optimized for an mmo. Infact they probably wouldn't cut it in a single player game except Gears of War. Actually modeling for an mmo should never have such high polies. With current technology, the models should be about how you can get a box to look good. Such as a single cylindrical post can easily be faked with a 4 poly box by rotating its logical facing angle by 45 degrees. Instead in this game they decided to waste double, even triple that amount for a simple straight post. Also you would see things modeled on the roof that simply would be done with textures. Like Oriental Style Shingling fully modeled out. Even in Oblivion they used a texture. Ontop of this, in order to give them that rounded end look, they chamfered the poly adding in 4 more triangles, per row of shingles which adds up. What should have been 2 polies is now over 1000. I also saw modeled out small cracks on the ground in this game. I even looked in hard to see places, like a whole in the cieling that showed the space inbetween it and the roof to see the actual structure modeled out, and modeled badly.
Ontop of the bad optimizations, the models also weren't built with going inside it in mind. They were built to scale, which inturn creates a cramped feel. When I was playing with a diplomat running around town I always dreaded going to an NPC on the second floor because it was done to scale and very hard to navigate well so cramped. Usually the roof is actually raised a little bit. A typical 8 foot high cieling would probably be around 12 in a game. You can see this done well in Oblivion, EQ2, and WoW. Most of the time in a 1 story building, they would just remove the cieling and let you see the bottom of the roof because the cieling would be uncomfortable.
Textures
For actual use of the textures, it was very well done with an mmo in mind. I think there were around 100 textures used on the entire environment in the Half-Elf Island Chain. Re-using the same texture across multiple models is just a good idea for optimization since it lowers the ram taken by the textures, usually the biggest hit. However, they were mapped badly. You would see Seams, and overstretched textures. It also lacked Vertex Painting and other shaders to help make 2 textures fit.
The models also lacked dirt which can be simple alpha planes that are then pre-fabed with models. Then the actual texture painting itself was very generic and lacked basic principles of painting realistic textures. Some textures are the first images you come up with when you google search it looking for large images. Like a few of the bark textures I have seen in the first 3 pages after searching for bark. As far as the painting goes. The unique diffuse maps also weren't painted very well. They looked like a grayscale image with a color flooded over it. It ends up looking fake and cartoony. Real painting involves adding in hints of those simple life colors like blues and reds. Also having a good eye for the actual saturation. The textures in Vanguard had alot more saturation to them then what I would expect for a game advertised as realistic. The saturation as almost to the point that is in WoW's. What really concretes realistic textures are the low saturation. Most real-life colors are in the bottom saturation 50% of saturation levels.
They didn't use specular maps very well and had them at extremes. If you see white and your going for a realistic look, you did something wrong. Like when I see shiney trees, its just a bad specular map job. Its not even hard work, you can easily take the same texture used for diffuse, desaturate it; the do a brightness contrast, increase contrast by 75% and decrease brightness by 50%, and bam awesome specular levels for realistic textures.
The Normal Maps looked like they badly used the Nvidia plugin for photoshop. In places they just didn't pop enough. To get a good quality Normal map using a simple grayscale hieghtmap, you should take it into max or maya, use a displacement map with a high poly plane, then adjust the intensity until it looks how it normally would, and take a quick snapshot of that normal. Then when you apply the normal to a flat plane it would fake the look of the high version. Most of the textures used in this game are actually tilable textures repeated across geometry. You can tell the Nvidia plugin was used because they are very flat, the bump is unpronounced alot of times which is synonomous with the plugin since the plugin really doesn't have anything to relate to. There were also a few over bumped areas. I admit through. I did see like 4 normal maps that were magnifecent. The Bark on the tree's in Ccia'diel or whatever its called looked pretty good when it wasn't badly mapped. Also in Tanvu; the dirt folds on the sloping terrain was very well done, its also the only instance when I thought the architecture was done well. Then a few of the distant mountains looked great.
Level/Environment Design
The actual environment design to me didn't really make any sense. Things just looked stuck ontop of terrain and for good reason. In reality; half the towns I ran across shoulda been in the water within a couple years. They just didn't have basics of architecture behind them like foundations, or even building on a level surface. Also when you build a tall object and its supported by a sheer wall on all sides. Its gonna fall. Some examples of this are the pyramids, Roman Domes, and Cathedrals; they are actually around because they take into account the outward force a building exerts at higher levels, The entire human capital shoulda fell off that hill for this very reason. Also around any building no matter how old, there is still a few signs of wear and tear on the ground, like a simple path made to the door of a building; or a path made slightly off a building from patrols.
It only took me 15 minutes when entering the game to find an object I can see through. Once in the actual Half-Elf area there were trees growin in the middle of the road. It actually isn't that hard to move a tree off such a linear road, even with deco-layers which is what they were using since you can run through tree most trees.
They also didn't really repeat geometry too much which is a major benefit in Unreal and can be done well using prefabs. Like you take the walls for a house and prefab it with different roofs; or if you have obvious repeated elements in a model, you can prefab it together which will make it run better in unreal. Unreal can really repeat geometry well way beyond what it can with unique models. I think it was something like a 5k poly model in an empty universe could be repeated 800 times to get 30 fps on an average system built in 2004 using GeForce 5 Video Card, 512 mb ram, and a 2.4 ghz processor.
Lastly, on actual design; they didn't really address the vertical too well. Most of the areas were a basin surrounded by mountains (Alot of areas should have been flooded; especially in the half elf area since it rains so much there). Flats boring and they had a real opportunity to exploit the vertical with flying mounts and such.
Also don't give me that you haven't played far enough. In truth I wanted to put it down ASAP, but I always had at the back of my head that if I don't play for a while then people will scoff off this criticism as someone who didn't actually try the game. I got through the combat, the exploration, the diplomacy (BTW, finding ways to level your diplomacy was a real pain, but it is fun.), and the crafting. I even got passed the 40 hour hurdle. And don't give any of that its a beta nonsense. They will have thier hands full optimizing for its release in 2 weeks. There is no way they can redo 90% of the models in that time-frame.
I do enjoy how you bring up CoH which is more plastic then Vanguard and Everquest II in every regard.
I supose you talking about conan right? If that's the case, then you should give a better look to those images and tell me where do you see something "plastic", because i dont see any.....
Skawlra Rock. Remember this place. Awsome gear, great experience and when you get inside the rock... Absolutely crazy fun! This rock also has some great casual playing experience also. Grab a buddy and head through the tunnel on the left side of the rock (You'll swim up on the edge where this picture is taken). I believe it is for the level range of 18 - 22. North-eastern end of Qalia. Take note!
i hope it's not like everquest 2, like if you don't have a good computer it looks like utter shit, but if you do have it looks amazing. I think thats why alot of people like world of warcrafts graphics, they look pretty good on mediocore computers which in a way i say is a win. But like i have experienced with a good computer vanguard seems to have great graphics, although i did like what i saw in that LOTRO screenshot
I never had the opportunity to see such wonderful grafix on my screen. I am afraid that i can't experience such quality with the card i have.
And this is the problem with all these games. They design and test them on high end PC's ignoring the average configuration of the regular user which is about 1 or 2 generations back (AGP).
I am really interested in Vanguard but i read many complains about the perfomance of this game from many people that test it. Elite graphics are not a sign of gameplay and quality.
There are games who support all configurations, without the need of purchasing a several hundred Graphics card and have amazing graphics. Especially now that windows vista come to the market a purchase of a new pc just to play games is not wise.
I hope that people who beta test vanguard now will read this post and advise the programmers of this game to just test it on a "regular" pc because many people claim that even if you use the lowest configuration from the ini files and game settings the game is still unplayable.
The graphics are good, but if you look at ones without that 3d tree stuff they remind me alot of SWG. I Love how the terrain view distance goes rearly far though - in terms of graphics i think that is the most important factor My favorite games are operation flashpoint, and armedassault cause of that factor, but unlike those where you can see mobs as far as the terrain goes -(10,000m!) in armedassault. In vanguard the mobs spawn rearly rearly close to you, if your moving they spawn inside your cast range so little heads up time. i think this rearly detracts from the percieved immersion that screenshots give, compared to in game, where you never have to focus in the distance, as the only mobs or whatever are at your feet.
The entire world looks like poorly textured plastic. Like the whole world is one big slab and everything is just dropped on top of it. There is no "earthy" feeling to soil, rock, grass, etc... The worst part is the transition between different textures. Nothing to show that trees, rocks, mountains, buildings, ruins, etc, aren't just dropped there.
I agree entirely with Manveru. The way they modeled the world is fine, also is the shadowing system or the effect of the water. Sublime, very nice.
But the problem is the textures, they're not "warm", "lifeless", "real", etc... Very similar to what they've done with Everquest 2.
Now to support my argument, I've chosen to compare several screenshots from different games (but similar in terms of graphics), 2 screenshot per game, 1 with landscape, the other with players:
I hope the screenshots speaks for themselfs. From those 3, I prefer the Conan screenshots, and I'm a Middle-earth freak, believe me. I'm quite ashamed that LOTR isn't my favourite anymore.
That's a nice selection of screens and they do in fact speak for themselves.
Like you and Manveru, there is not much about Vanguard that I liked. The graphics were dull and boring in the majority of locations, and I couldn't stand yet another MMO based on "Kill 10 Woozits and 15 Whatsits and bring back 8 Thingamabobs".
That's the same style of gameplay that I can get in a free Asian grind fest. I don't see why I should pony up a monthly subscription for it.
Im new to these forums so guys im not asking for a flaming but i have some questions about the graphics in all 3 games in question (aoc vg and lotro)
How much bigger is the vanguard world (in size not content) than the other two games? from what ive read one of VG's selling points is its sheer size, so if it is soooo much bigger would that mean it would be harder fill in areas with life etc? (i really want to try out all 3 games for a few months before i make a decission on how the next two years of my gaming life will be spent lol)
And from what ive seen all 3 games look comparable as far as eye candy is concerned (i accept that each developer has gone different ways and used different tricks to get the style there looking for), but to me i think all look great in there own way...that being said are we going to see similar problems with system specs and performance from all three games and are all three games going to weigh in at the 20gig mark?
Please know im equally excited about all 3 games and intend to try all of them out....i own a great computer so id say that none of the problems people have found with these game will apply to me, (fingers crossed lol) but i am just interested to see what the answers are to my questions.....
I've said this in another thread, but I'll repeat it here. A big problem with the graphics is that they don't blend well together at all. As you look around your environment, there are things textured as well as any game currently out there, things that as textured look like they belong in the original EQ and a lot of textures in between.
If you look at the three screenshot post comparing Vanguard, LotR and AoC you can clearly see that the latter two have a very consistent graphics quality and perfect blending, while Vanguard shows a lot of incongruities.
Can you cherry pick very selective screenshots from Vanguard that look great? Yes, you can. However, in real time, the flaws become extremely obvious and completely kill any sense of immersion in the game. People coming from EQ or some other early generation MMORPG might have no problem with it, but if you've played anything fairly recent, it's clear that this game is a huge step backward on the graphics front.
I also agree with the poster who highlighted the problem with a lot of the bump maps for the game. When bump mapping is turned up to high, it can make an otherwise good texture look horrible. That is frequently the case with Vanguard.
Vanguard suffers from the same problems as EQ2 as far as graphics, impressive engine but horrible art direction and texture continuity. It's the same plastic look and has the same immersion breaking incongruities in graphics quality between objects, creatures and terrain that make up any given scene.
Add in the horrendous animations and spell effects and any sense of immersion for most people will be completely impossible.
The game graphics engine is draws heavily on your machines performance and doesn't supply anything much better then EQ2, thats pathetic. This whole game is nothing but EQ2 packaged differently then the other EQ2, totally sucktastic.
What I'm saying is that as long as you can't match or surpass what has been done, you have no authority on the subject.. It's like with music, there is good music and bad music, it's not a matter of personal preference, it's a fact, most bands can't play properly, they suck! But it takes a real musician to be able to tell wether or not someone can play..
Theres no use trusting the general consensus, because most people are idiots and they don't know anything about anything, anyway. And that goes for most things in the world.
Skawlra Rock. Remember this place. Awsome gear, great experience and when you get inside the rock... Absolutely crazy fun! This rock also has some great casual playing experience also. Grab a buddy and head through the tunnel on the left side of the rock (You'll swim up on the edge where this picture is taken). I believe it is for the level range of 18 - 22. North-eastern end of Qalia. Take note!
Comments
this is a very... narrow-minded statement.
Game developers make games so that they can put in on the market to sell, they have to meet the costumers requirments for gameplay, graphics etc. etc.
They have to be stronger than their competitors, not their costumers.
But hey you forgot WoW
Landscape screenshot
WoW: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/burningcrusade/images/screenshots/ss184.jpg
Players screenshots:
WoW: http://worldofwarcraft.com/burningcrusade/images/screenshots/ss221.jpg
well, I wont argue that vanguard falls way short of Age of Conan as well as Lord of the Rings. The one thing both games seem to be using that (for whatever reason) is disabled in vanguard is "lighting bloom" (aside from a more creative artist)
and I agree vanguard could use this, hopefully this option will be enabled soon *shrugs*. It IS an option in the graphics settings menu, but for whatever reason its disabled currently and doesnt work.
what bloom does is softens edges and gives the world a bit more of a vibrant look. reflections look fantastic, lighting looks incredible but it makes the game look a bit more extraordinary. someone a while back posted on the official VG and edited numerous screenshots to show what the "bloom" effect would do for the game. It looked stunning. it majorly reduces this "plastic" effect that you see in games like Vanguard and EQ2. A lot of MMO's use this, its very predominant in Age of Conan and Lord of the Rings, it makes a huge difference.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
<-- There. Done. And with the same free material packs that Vanguard use. Cant even design their own object maps, kinda amateurish.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
I completely disagree with manveru. I feel like the environment is more alive and real then any game I have ever played. They did a great job with the little things. Like how the light of your torch reflects off of cave walls or how trees actually fall down when harvesting them for wood. The character models aren't anything great but when you compare it to something like WoW that has 3 different faces, 2 or 3 hairstyles, and some facial hairy depending on your race you respect the customibility of Vanguard.
I do enjoy how you bring up CoH which is more plastic then Vanguard and Everquest II in every regard.
Not to bash any of the games but I think the plastic look is a style all its own. Obviously they weren't going for too real because no human has that glossy finish
. If you can't appreciate it for what it is then that's your own opinion and you are allowed that. Personally I think WoW looks like a complete mess, especially in areas with alot of people. It doesn't look like an 8 million sub game, it looks like a poorly made f2p Korean game. That's my opinion and you are allowed yours. I think some of Vanguard's models look great, especially my Wood Elf. The problem with the models is that they all look too humanoid. I feel like the used the same model and stuck a different texture on it. It's disappointing because if they put more effort into the models the game might be a little more enjoyable for me.
After a huge PvP fight is can look like a mess:
http://www.blizzard.com/wow/ssotd/images/screenoftheday/ss0852.jpg
But normaly look super:
http://www.blizzard.com/wow/ssotd/images/screenoftheday/ss0839.jpg
But if you like the plastic look, great, I love WoW graphics.. lets be friends.
It is the way they overuse and abuse bump mapping. Same thing EQ2 did (until EOF)
There is very easy workaround. Put normal mapping to 0% (yes for some reason they labeled bump mapping - normal mapping ?!)
This will give you the smooth look , similar to wow (but realistic) And you will finnaly see the textures. And get big performance boost too!
There is just one problem. For some reason faraway textures on landscape are not displaying (but bump mapping is)
Hope they fix that.
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
I think the opinions made here are just talking about the images, not animations or those little things your talking about, which as you said, can make a game even more real.
I supose you talking about conan right? If that's the case, then you should give a better look to those images and tell me where do you see something "plastic", because i dont see any.....
http://community.ageofconan.com/conan/frontend/files/CONTENT/screen7.jpg
http://community.ageofconan.com/conan/frontend/files/CONTENT/ruins3.jpg
http://community.ageofconan.com/conan/frontend/files/CONTENT/tortage_screen_1.jpg
Or you can show me 1 picture, if you find 1 of course.....
I'm srry, but i think they've made the game to look real, but unfortunatly they used the bumpmapping in the wrong way, making the character with a glossy look.
I'm not saying that Vanguard is a bad game, i'm just saying it could have better graphics, that's all.
"Normal mapping is sometimes referred to as "Dot3 bump mapping". While bump mapping perturbs the existing normal (the way the surface is facing) of a model, normal mapping replaces the normal entirely. Like bump mapping, it is used to add details to shading without using more polygons. But where a bump map is usually calculated based on a single-channel (interpreted as grayscale) image, the source for the normals in normal mapping is usually a multichannel image (that is, channels for "red", "green" and "blue" as opposed to just a single color) derived from a set of more detailed versions of the objects."
From wikipedia. Click here to see more about the subject.
Thanks for making this topic, I can totally vent in it about how I feel about these badly done graphics and help people understand why thier computers run this game like shit.
Models
The Models simply are not optimized for an mmo. Infact they probably wouldn't cut it in a single player game except Gears of War. Actually modeling for an mmo should never have such high polies. With current technology, the models should be about how you can get a box to look good. Such as a single cylindrical post can easily be faked with a 4 poly box by rotating its logical facing angle by 45 degrees. Instead in this game they decided to waste double, even triple that amount for a simple straight post. Also you would see things modeled on the roof that simply would be done with textures. Like Oriental Style Shingling fully modeled out. Even in Oblivion they used a texture. Ontop of this, in order to give them that rounded end look, they chamfered the poly adding in 4 more triangles, per row of shingles which adds up. What should have been 2 polies is now over 1000. I also saw modeled out small cracks on the ground in this game. I even looked in hard to see places, like a whole in the cieling that showed the space inbetween it and the roof to see the actual structure modeled out, and modeled badly.
Ontop of the bad optimizations, the models also weren't built with going inside it in mind. They were built to scale, which inturn creates a cramped feel. When I was playing with a diplomat running around town I always dreaded going to an NPC on the second floor because it was done to scale and very hard to navigate well so cramped. Usually the roof is actually raised a little bit. A typical 8 foot high cieling would probably be around 12 in a game. You can see this done well in Oblivion, EQ2, and WoW. Most of the time in a 1 story building, they would just remove the cieling and let you see the bottom of the roof because the cieling would be uncomfortable.
Textures
For actual use of the textures, it was very well done with an mmo in mind. I think there were around 100 textures used on the entire environment in the Half-Elf Island Chain. Re-using the same texture across multiple models is just a good idea for optimization since it lowers the ram taken by the textures, usually the biggest hit. However, they were mapped badly. You would see Seams, and overstretched textures. It also lacked Vertex Painting and other shaders to help make 2 textures fit.
The models also lacked dirt which can be simple alpha planes that are then pre-fabed with models. Then the actual texture painting itself was very generic and lacked basic principles of painting realistic textures. Some textures are the first images you come up with when you google search it looking for large images. Like a few of the bark textures I have seen in the first 3 pages after searching for bark. As far as the painting goes. The unique diffuse maps also weren't painted very well. They looked like a grayscale image with a color flooded over it. It ends up looking fake and cartoony. Real painting involves adding in hints of those simple life colors like blues and reds. Also having a good eye for the actual saturation. The textures in Vanguard had alot more saturation to them then what I would expect for a game advertised as realistic. The saturation as almost to the point that is in WoW's. What really concretes realistic textures are the low saturation. Most real-life colors are in the bottom saturation 50% of saturation levels.
They didn't use specular maps very well and had them at extremes. If you see white and your going for a realistic look, you did something wrong. Like when I see shiney trees, its just a bad specular map job. Its not even hard work, you can easily take the same texture used for diffuse, desaturate it; the do a brightness contrast, increase contrast by 75% and decrease brightness by 50%, and bam awesome specular levels for realistic textures.
The Normal Maps looked like they badly used the Nvidia plugin for photoshop. In places they just didn't pop enough. To get a good quality Normal map using a simple grayscale hieghtmap, you should take it into max or maya, use a displacement map with a high poly plane, then adjust the intensity until it looks how it normally would, and take a quick snapshot of that normal. Then when you apply the normal to a flat plane it would fake the look of the high version. Most of the textures used in this game are actually tilable textures repeated across geometry. You can tell the Nvidia plugin was used because they are very flat, the bump is unpronounced alot of times which is synonomous with the plugin since the plugin really doesn't have anything to relate to. There were also a few over bumped areas. I admit through. I did see like 4 normal maps that were magnifecent. The Bark on the tree's in Ccia'diel or whatever its called looked pretty good when it wasn't badly mapped. Also in Tanvu; the dirt folds on the sloping terrain was very well done, its also the only instance when I thought the architecture was done well. Then a few of the distant mountains looked great.
Level/Environment Design
The actual environment design to me didn't really make any sense. Things just looked stuck ontop of terrain and for good reason. In reality; half the towns I ran across shoulda been in the water within a couple years. They just didn't have basics of architecture behind them like foundations, or even building on a level surface. Also when you build a tall object and its supported by a sheer wall on all sides. Its gonna fall. Some examples of this are the pyramids, Roman Domes, and Cathedrals; they are actually around because they take into account the outward force a building exerts at higher levels, The entire human capital shoulda fell off that hill for this very reason. Also around any building no matter how old, there is still a few signs of wear and tear on the ground, like a simple path made to the door of a building; or a path made slightly off a building from patrols.
It only took me 15 minutes when entering the game to find an object I can see through. Once in the actual Half-Elf area there were trees growin in the middle of the road. It actually isn't that hard to move a tree off such a linear road, even with deco-layers which is what they were using since you can run through tree most trees.
They also didn't really repeat geometry too much which is a major benefit in Unreal and can be done well using prefabs. Like you take the walls for a house and prefab it with different roofs; or if you have obvious repeated elements in a model, you can prefab it together which will make it run better in unreal. Unreal can really repeat geometry well way beyond what it can with unique models. I think it was something like a 5k poly model in an empty universe could be repeated 800 times to get 30 fps on an average system built in 2004 using GeForce 5 Video Card, 512 mb ram, and a 2.4 ghz processor.
Lastly, on actual design; they didn't really address the vertical too well. Most of the areas were a basin surrounded by mountains (Alot of areas should have been flooded; especially in the half elf area since it rains so much there). Flats boring and they had a real opportunity to exploit the vertical with flying mounts and such.
Also don't give me that you haven't played far enough. In truth I wanted to put it down ASAP, but I always had at the back of my head that if I don't play for a while then people will scoff off this criticism as someone who didn't actually try the game. I got through the combat, the exploration, the diplomacy (BTW, finding ways to level your diplomacy was a real pain, but it is fun.), and the crafting. I even got passed the 40 hour hurdle. And don't give any of that its a beta nonsense. They will have thier hands full optimizing for its release in 2 weeks. There is no way they can redo 90% of the models in that time-frame.
I supose you talking about conan right? If that's the case, then you should give a better look to those images and tell me where do you see something "plastic", because i dont see any.....
http://community.ageofconan.com/conan/frontend/files/CONTENT/screen7.jpg
http://community.ageofconan.com/conan/frontend/files/CONTENT/ruins3.jpg
http://community.ageofconan.com/conan/frontend/files/CONTENT/tortage_screen_1.jpg
Or you can show me 1 picture, if you find 1 of course.....
CoH means City of Heroes
Regards,
http://twitter.com/xmcgraw
I never had the opportunity to see such wonderful grafix on my screen. I am afraid that i can't experience such quality with the card i have.
And this is the problem with all these games. They design and test them on high end PC's ignoring the average configuration of the regular user which is about 1 or 2 generations back (AGP).
I am really interested in Vanguard but i read many complains about the perfomance of this game from many people that test it. Elite graphics are not a sign of gameplay and quality.
There are games who support all configurations, without the need of purchasing a several hundred Graphics card and have amazing graphics. Especially now that windows vista come to the market a purchase of a new pc just to play games is not wise.
I hope that people who beta test vanguard now will read this post and advise the programmers of this game to just test it on a "regular" pc because many people claim that even if you use the lowest configuration from the ini files and game settings the game is still unplayable.
don't be stupid its too populer.
I agree entirely with Manveru. The way they modeled the world is fine, also is the shadowing system or the effect of the water. Sublime, very nice.
But the problem is the textures, they're not "warm", "lifeless", "real", etc... Very similar to what they've done with Everquest 2.
Now to support my argument, I've chosen to compare several screenshots from different games (but similar in terms of graphics), 2 screenshot per game, 1 with landscape, the other with players:
Landscape screenshots:
Vanguard: http://www.vanguardsoh.com/e3-2006-ss/Horses-2.jpg
LOTR Online: http://lorimages.turbine.com/files/38/41/98/88/796.jpg
Age of Conan: http://community.ageofconan.com/conan/frontend/files/CONTENT/ConallsValley_6.jpg
Players screenshots:
Vanguard: http://images.mmorpg.com/images/screenshots/062006/7502.jpg
LOTR Online: http://lorimages.turbine.com/files/31/75/15/01/954.jpg
Age of Conan: http://community.ageofconan.com/conan/frontend/files/CONTENT/screen2.jpg
I hope the screenshots speaks for themselfs. From those 3, I prefer the Conan screenshots, and I'm a Middle-earth freak, believe me. I'm quite ashamed that LOTR isn't my favourite anymore.
That's a nice selection of screens and they do in fact speak for themselves.
Like you and Manveru, there is not much about Vanguard that I liked. The graphics were dull and boring in the majority of locations, and I couldn't stand yet another MMO based on "Kill 10 Woozits and 15 Whatsits and bring back 8 Thingamabobs".
That's the same style of gameplay that I can get in a free Asian grind fest. I don't see why I should pony up a monthly subscription for it.
Though granted, the diplomacy was way cool IMO.
~Mysk
How much bigger is the vanguard world (in size not content) than the other two games? from what ive read one of VG's selling points is its sheer size, so if it is soooo much bigger would that mean it would be harder fill in areas with life etc? (i really want to try out all 3 games for a few months before i make a decission on how the next two years of my gaming life will be spent lol)
And from what ive seen all 3 games look comparable as far as eye candy is concerned (i accept that each developer has gone different ways and used different tricks to get the style there looking for), but to me i think all look great in there own way...that being said are we going to see similar problems with system specs and performance from all three games and are all three games going to weigh in at the 20gig mark?
Please know im equally excited about all 3 games and intend to try all of them out....i own a great computer so id say that none of the problems people have found with these game will apply to me, (fingers crossed lol) but i am just interested to see what the answers are to my questions.....
Thanks in advance for any answers.
If you look at the three screenshot post comparing Vanguard, LotR and AoC you can clearly see that the latter two have a very consistent graphics quality and perfect blending, while Vanguard shows a lot of incongruities.
Can you cherry pick very selective screenshots from Vanguard that look great? Yes, you can. However, in real time, the flaws become extremely obvious and completely kill any sense of immersion in the game. People coming from EQ or some other early generation MMORPG might have no problem with it, but if you've played anything fairly recent, it's clear that this game is a huge step backward on the graphics front.
I also agree with the poster who highlighted the problem with a lot of the bump maps for the game. When bump mapping is turned up to high, it can make an otherwise good texture look horrible. That is frequently the case with Vanguard.
Vanguard suffers from the same problems as EQ2 as far as graphics, impressive engine but horrible art direction and texture continuity. It's the same plastic look and has the same immersion breaking incongruities in graphics quality between objects, creatures and terrain that make up any given scene.
Add in the horrendous animations and spell effects and any sense of immersion for most people will be completely impossible.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Theres no use trusting the general consensus, because most people are idiots and they don't know anything about anything, anyway.
And that goes for most things in the world.
Regards,
OMG you can visit Skawlra Rock in WoW:TBC too =D
heres one of my psi in astral form.
i think i just kicked a fieldgoal or something.