I think one reason WoW elicits such viceral hatred from some people on MMORPG.com is because this website is essentially geared towards the non-WoW niche MMORPGs.
I think you are completely wrong there, WoW gets more than its fair share of coverage from MMORPG.com. The main reason there is more varied discussion on here is because a lot of the users of this site have been around playing MMO long before WoW came on the scene. The vast majority of WoW subscribers are first time MMO players and therefore WoW seems all new and shiny to them, whereas the longer term MMO players have seen all the features in WoW before and therefore aren't so impressed.
WoW is a perfectly good introductory MMO, and it has enough content to keep the casual players busy for a fairly long time. I quite enjoyed my time playing it, I only stopped when I realised that all there was left to do in the game was mindless faction and raid grinds whilst waiting for the next expansion, so I quit and moved onto something else a little more challenging and enjoyable than the WoW endgame. Again, thats not a dig at WoW, some people like that sort of thing, but it was not for me.
My only real gripe with WoW is actually with certain types of players, i.e. the ones that feel its their duty to log onto other MMOs and preach how great WoW is. I will also never forget how childish the conversations in the broadcast channels were, I have never seen so many pathetic responses to people asking for a bit of help, e.g. 'Can someone tell me where mob X is?' questions followed by countless 'RTFM', 'Noob', 'U suck' type replies.
Another problem with WoWs success is that most MMO producers are only in it for the money, therefore when they see how much money WoW is making they try to emulate it to get a slice of that pie, which has IMO resulted in less innovation in the newer MMOs than we saw in the years preceeding WoW.
I think one reason WoW elicits such viceral hatred from some people on MMORPG.com is because this website is essentially geared towards the non-WoW niche MMORPGs.
I think you are completely wrong there, WoW gets more than its fair share of coverage from MMORPG.com. The main reason there is more varied discussion on here is because a lot of the users of this site have been around playing MMO long before WoW came on the scene. The vast majority of WoW subscribers are first time MMO players and therefore WoW seems all new and shiny to them, whereas the longer term MMO players have seen all the features in WoW before and therefore aren't so impressed.
I agree somewhat. I agree that WoW is great for people who are new to MMORPG genre and that MMO vets dislike WoW (in general) because it is not what theyd expect from a MMORPG. Old school MMORPGs were mostly grind-intensive. Meaning a person would have to spend 5-8 hours a day to get to the high end. And that still took them months of months of camping same spot to grind to higher levels. This meant that top level players were hardcore players, and they were the 90-95% of the MMORPG population, casuals were usualy left behind and eventualy quit becuase they could not compete in a game where RL time was the prime means to get exp.
When WoW arrived, there was a major shift in balance. Now casuals had a real chance to get to the juicy high end part. Hardcore peeps still had better chances of being "better" at highend game becuase of the time invested into raiding, but the casuals now posed serious competition. This prompted the outcry from the vets, they are not happy that others can be as good as they are with less effort. Hence the "WoW is simple and easy to play" and "WoW is for kids" comments. Which is understandable, but they forget to consider that WoW was not created for the hardcore type. It wasnt designed to be finished in 2 weeks.
WoW is a perfectly good introductory MMO, and it has enough content to keep the casual players busy for a fairly long time. I quite enjoyed my time playing it, I only stopped when I realised that all there was left to do in the game was mindless faction and raid grinds whilst waiting for the next expansion, so I quit and moved onto something else a little more challenging and enjoyable than the WoW endgame. Again, thats not a dig at WoW, some people like that sort of thing, but it was not for me.
My only real gripe with WoW is actually with certain types of players, i.e. the ones that feel its their duty to log onto other MMOs and preach how great WoW is. I will also never forget how childish the conversations in the broadcast channels were, I have never seen so many pathetic responses to people asking for a bit of help, e.g. 'Can someone tell me where mob X is?' questions followed by countless 'RTFM', 'Noob', 'U suck' type replies.
Another problem with WoWs success is that most MMO producers are only in it for the money, therefore when they see how much money WoW is making they try to emulate it to get a slice of that pie, which has IMO resulted in less innovation in the newer MMOs than we saw in the years preceeding WoW.
Since no game is like another game, each one is innovative in a way. Some are less, others are more. But its good that WoW is very popular because casuals are a much larger playerbase then hardcore gamers.
Well it seems some people are "fudging" numbers a bit. I was commenting on the posted numbers in the release and stating an opinion.
It was posted that actually closer to 75% bought the expansion. Althought they may eventually get up there that is not true right now. The release said "over 4 million copies" sent to stores. So, at most you would be about 50% of subscibers bought the expansion. That is assuming that virtually every copy made initially sold out, which isn't the case. I was at a Gamestop 2 days after TBC to pick up a game card for another game and they had several copies sitting on the shelf. So it sold well but didn't sell out.
The release said 1.2 mil in North America and 1.1 mil in Europe sold. By the end of the day it said 1.7 mil activating their BC accounts. So that would be 2.3 mil sold, or about 58% of units made already sold. Still impressive numbers sales-wise, I was just commenting in relation to 8 mil subscribers.
However, arguing numbers is rather silly as we do not have any hard data to go by. Only a press release by Blizzard.
I think one reason WoW elicits such viceral hatred from some people on MMORPG.com is because this website is essentially geared towards the non-WoW niche MMORPGs. The players of these niche games recognize that WoW has mass market appeal, a large subscription base and a very large, and loyal, global community. I think to many of these people WoW's success is fundamentally threatening to them. The wide, seemingly unbridled popularity of WoW, not their game of choice, directly challenges their value sets. It tells them that the world favors something which they shun, it makes them question their judgement, their worldview and values. People don't like to have their values threatened or have the things they like passively, yet publicly, rebuked.
MMORPG.com is advertised as the forum for those seeking alternatives to WoW. This website specializes in 'other than WoW' content. That is a good thing. If not for MMORPG.com the market dominance of WoW would likely quash discussion of alternative games or relegate such discussion to small boards here and there run on fansites, nothing like what we see here. MMORPG.com in my opinion levels the playing field, a bit, by brining exposure to games in development, niche games, and the global MMORPG scene. Kudos to those who brought us MMORPG.com!
Having said that though, the MMORPG.com forums also provide a vehicle and forum for niche gamers, who feel threatened by WoW's success, to vent their emotions and to find mutual support from other niche gamers. This is essential to them. The ability to commune with others who share their dislike (or worse) for WoW diminishes their feelings of isolation and proves, to them, that their values are not aberrant, that they are the 'intelligent minority' of gamers out there who actually know the 'truth' about why WoW is so popular (vice their game(s) of choice) and why WoW is so bad for the genre... "It's too easy.... It's designed to be soloed... It's a grind fest... It's cartoonish... It can run on even average rigs... It's not a sandbox..." You've heard all the arguments, you've seen them throughout these forums, seemingly irregardless of which game's forum they appear in.
Unfortunately such discussions on these forums usually manifest themselves in the form of flaming. The post purposely designed to attack or otherwise assault another poster who may enjoy WoW or have posted something not condemning WoW. It seems that even posting statements not condemning WoW will get you branded a noob these days and flamed to the point of questioning the existence of forum moderators. People on these forums often say "live and let live" or "game and let game" when people start complaining about the games they are testing or eagerly awaiting to play like VGSoH or PotBS or AoC... When confronted with a challenge that the game is going to somehow not measure up to expectations they respond with, "Well maybe it doesn't appeal to you, so just don't play it and leave it to those of us who want to/like to play." I've seen this a bit on the VG forums as a response to a rash of negative comments from the most recent Beta phase. Well you know what, there's some truth to the "game and let game" philosophy. Let's try to apply that equally to all games, including WoW. We may not all agree on what is good or what is entertaining, as we are all individuals with specialized tastes and interests, but we should all be able to recognize what is can be considered fair play and civil when it comes to posts. Furthermore, if you really so dislike WoW, for whatever reasons, just be considerate of others who may enjoy the experience.
Show the maturity that some claim is lacking from the WoW player base and that is required to enjoy non-WoW games.
This could not be said better.
Oh my golly gosh.
My jaw has dropped...
Who wrote that? SUMB44. That is the most self contradicting, arrogant post. Yes writen like you know what you are on about, but all you are doing is putting on papper (computer screen) I your fictionalised ideas of other peoples thoughts.
what I mean buy this is, you have written 'WoW holds better public view, anyone who doesnt like it, is having thoughts of self-doubt. My MMO is better then yours. In your face WoW haters.".
I dont normally get into the whole my MMO is better then yours rants, but geez.
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I think one reason WoW elicits such viceral hatred from some people on MMORPG.com is because this website is essentially geared towards the non-WoW niche MMORPGs. The players of these niche games recognize that WoW has mass market appeal, a large subscription base and a very large, and loyal, global community. I think to many of these people WoW's success is fundamentally threatening to them. The wide, seemingly unbridled popularity of WoW, not their game of choice, directly challenges their value sets. It tells them that the world favors something which they shun, it makes them question their judgement, their worldview and values. People don't like to have their values threatened or have the things they like passively, yet publicly, rebuked.
MMORPG.com is advertised as the forum for those seeking alternatives to WoW. This website specializes in 'other than WoW' content. That is a good thing. If not for MMORPG.com the market dominance of WoW would likely quash discussion of alternative games or relegate such discussion to small boards here and there run on fansites, nothing like what we see here. MMORPG.com in my opinion levels the playing field, a bit, by brining exposure to games in development, niche games, and the global MMORPG scene. Kudos to those who brought us MMORPG.com!
Having said that though, the MMORPG.com forums also provide a vehicle and forum for niche gamers, who feel threatened by WoW's success, to vent their emotions and to find mutual support from other niche gamers. This is essential to them. The ability to commune with others who share their dislike (or worse) for WoW diminishes their feelings of isolation and proves, to them, that their values are not aberrant, that they are the 'intelligent minority' of gamers out there who actually know the 'truth' about why WoW is so popular (vice their game(s) of choice) and why WoW is so bad for the genre... "It's too easy.... It's designed to be soloed... It's a grind fest... It's cartoonish... It can run on even average rigs... It's not a sandbox..." You've heard all the arguments, you've seen them throughout these forums, seemingly irregardless of which game's forum they appear in.
Unfortunately such discussions on these forums usually manifest themselves in the form of flaming. The post purposely designed to attack or otherwise assault another poster who may enjoy WoW or have posted something not condemning WoW. It seems that even posting statements not condemning WoW will get you branded a noob these days and flamed to the point of questioning the existence of forum moderators. People on these forums often say "live and let live" or "game and let game" when people start complaining about the games they are testing or eagerly awaiting to play like VGSoH or PotBS or AoC... When confronted with a challenge that the game is going to somehow not measure up to expectations they respond with, "Well maybe it doesn't appeal to you, so just don't play it and leave it to those of us who want to/like to play." I've seen this a bit on the VG forums as a response to a rash of negative comments from the most recent Beta phase. Well you know what, there's some truth to the "game and let game" philosophy. Let's try to apply that equally to all games, including WoW. We may not all agree on what is good or what is entertaining, as we are all individuals with specialized tastes and interests, but we should all be able to recognize what is can be considered fair play and civil when it comes to posts. Furthermore, if you really so dislike WoW, for whatever reasons, just be considerate of others who may enjoy the experience.
Show the maturity that some claim is lacking from the WoW player base and that is required to enjoy non-WoW games.
34 released games, 21 Games in development and lots of other pages on this website, you might have missed them ( i personaly have no idea how you come up with "MMORPG.com is avertised as the forum for those seeking alternatives to WoW" ???
I fully understand what you mean by the rest of your text but you really have to keep in mind this is a forum for thousends and thousends of individual, everyone with his/her own personality, and not everyone can express her/himself in perfect english, now not saying that flaming other people is a good thing but then again it a thing we need to accept that it can happen, nothing we can do about it (moderators can) Remember people of all ages do come here so that alone should be enough to realise what things might be said on forums like this
Let people be people, let them speak their mind, you don't like it you are free to leave or react, thats the whole meaning of forums you agree or don't agree with something and that can become a discussion and for that you can have a opinion wich you can write on forums like this.
34 released games, 21 Games in development and lots of other pages on this website, you might have missed them ( i personaly have no idea how you come up with "MMORPG.com is avertised as the forum for those seeking alternatives to WoW" ??? I fully understand what you mean by the rest of your text but you really have to keep in mind this is a forum for thousends and thousends of individual, everyone with his/her own personality, and not everyone can express her/himself in perfect english, now not saying that flaming other people is a good thing but then again it a thing we need to accept that it can happen, nothing we can do about it (moderators can) Remember people of all ages do come here so that alone should be enough to realise what things might be said on forums like this Let people be people, let them speak their mind, you don't like it you are free to leave or react, thats the whole meaning of forums you agree or don't agree with something and that can become a discussion and for that you can have a opinion wich you can write on forums like this.
I agree. However, there is a differrence between constructive arguments like "I disagree because..." and "You got ganked in a hardcore PvP game? Stop whining and go back to WoW you p**sy carebear". Any derogatory and/or unconstructive comment will not help anyone except the poster himself (to vent off emotions). People forget however that this is not a place to vent off steam.
Comments
I think you are completely wrong there, WoW gets more than its fair share of coverage from MMORPG.com. The main reason there is more varied discussion on here is because a lot of the users of this site have been around playing MMO long before WoW came on the scene. The vast majority of WoW subscribers are first time MMO players and therefore WoW seems all new and shiny to them, whereas the longer term MMO players have seen all the features in WoW before and therefore aren't so impressed.
WoW is a perfectly good introductory MMO, and it has enough content to keep the casual players busy for a fairly long time. I quite enjoyed my time playing it, I only stopped when I realised that all there was left to do in the game was mindless faction and raid grinds whilst waiting for the next expansion, so I quit and moved onto something else a little more challenging and enjoyable than the WoW endgame. Again, thats not a dig at WoW, some people like that sort of thing, but it was not for me.
My only real gripe with WoW is actually with certain types of players, i.e. the ones that feel its their duty to log onto other MMOs and preach how great WoW is. I will also never forget how childish the conversations in the broadcast channels were, I have never seen so many pathetic responses to people asking for a bit of help, e.g. 'Can someone tell me where mob X is?' questions followed by countless 'RTFM', 'Noob', 'U suck' type replies.
Another problem with WoWs success is that most MMO producers are only in it for the money, therefore when they see how much money WoW is making they try to emulate it to get a slice of that pie, which has IMO resulted in less innovation in the newer MMOs than we saw in the years preceeding WoW.
I think you are completely wrong there, WoW gets more than its fair share of coverage from MMORPG.com. The main reason there is more varied discussion on here is because a lot of the users of this site have been around playing MMO long before WoW came on the scene. The vast majority of WoW subscribers are first time MMO players and therefore WoW seems all new and shiny to them, whereas the longer term MMO players have seen all the features in WoW before and therefore aren't so impressed.
I agree somewhat. I agree that WoW is great for people who are new to MMORPG genre and that MMO vets dislike WoW (in general) because it is not what theyd expect from a MMORPG. Old school MMORPGs were mostly grind-intensive. Meaning a person would have to spend 5-8 hours a day to get to the high end. And that still took them months of months of camping same spot to grind to higher levels. This meant that top level players were hardcore players, and they were the 90-95% of the MMORPG population, casuals were usualy left behind and eventualy quit becuase they could not compete in a game where RL time was the prime means to get exp.
When WoW arrived, there was a major shift in balance. Now casuals had a real chance to get to the juicy high end part. Hardcore peeps still had better chances of being "better" at highend game becuase of the time invested into raiding, but the casuals now posed serious competition. This prompted the outcry from the vets, they are not happy that others can be as good as they are with less effort. Hence the "WoW is simple and easy to play" and "WoW is for kids" comments. Which is understandable, but they forget to consider that WoW was not created for the hardcore type. It wasnt designed to be finished in 2 weeks.
WoW is a perfectly good introductory MMO, and it has enough content to keep the casual players busy for a fairly long time. I quite enjoyed my time playing it, I only stopped when I realised that all there was left to do in the game was mindless faction and raid grinds whilst waiting for the next expansion, so I quit and moved onto something else a little more challenging and enjoyable than the WoW endgame. Again, thats not a dig at WoW, some people like that sort of thing, but it was not for me.
My only real gripe with WoW is actually with certain types of players, i.e. the ones that feel its their duty to log onto other MMOs and preach how great WoW is. I will also never forget how childish the conversations in the broadcast channels were, I have never seen so many pathetic responses to people asking for a bit of help, e.g. 'Can someone tell me where mob X is?' questions followed by countless 'RTFM', 'Noob', 'U suck' type replies.
Another problem with WoWs success is that most MMO producers are only in it for the money, therefore when they see how much money WoW is making they try to emulate it to get a slice of that pie, which has IMO resulted in less innovation in the newer MMOs than we saw in the years preceeding WoW.
Since no game is like another game, each one is innovative in a way. Some are less, others are more. But its good that WoW is very popular because casuals are a much larger playerbase then hardcore gamers.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Well it seems some people are "fudging" numbers a bit. I was commenting on the posted numbers in the release and stating an opinion.
It was posted that actually closer to 75% bought the expansion. Althought they may eventually get up there that is not true right now. The release said "over 4 million copies" sent to stores. So, at most you would be about 50% of subscibers bought the expansion. That is assuming that virtually every copy made initially sold out, which isn't the case. I was at a Gamestop 2 days after TBC to pick up a game card for another game and they had several copies sitting on the shelf. So it sold well but didn't sell out.
The release said 1.2 mil in North America and 1.1 mil in Europe sold. By the end of the day it said 1.7 mil activating their BC accounts. So that would be 2.3 mil sold, or about 58% of units made already sold. Still impressive numbers sales-wise, I was just commenting in relation to 8 mil subscribers.
However, arguing numbers is rather silly as we do not have any hard data to go by. Only a press release by Blizzard.
Oh my golly gosh.
My jaw has dropped...
Who wrote that? SUMB44. That is the most self contradicting, arrogant post. Yes writen like you know what you are on about, but all you are doing is putting on papper (computer screen) I your fictionalised ideas of other peoples thoughts.
what I mean buy this is, you have written 'WoW holds better public view, anyone who doesnt like it, is having thoughts of self-doubt. My MMO is better then yours. In your face WoW haters.".
I dont normally get into the whole my MMO is better then yours rants, but geez.
Eve Trial <- Try 14 days of Eve for FREE
Im against SOE
34 released games, 21 Games in development and lots of other pages on this website, you might have missed them
I fully understand what you mean by the rest of your text but you really have to keep in mind this is a forum for thousends and thousends of individual, everyone with his/her own personality, and not everyone can express her/himself in perfect english, now not saying that flaming other people is a good thing but then again it a thing we need to accept that it can happen, nothing we can do about it (moderators can) Remember people of all ages do come here so that alone should be enough to realise what things might be said on forums like this
Let people be people, let them speak their mind, you don't like it you are free to leave or react, thats the whole meaning of forums you agree or don't agree with something and that can become a discussion and for that you can have a opinion wich you can write on forums like this.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.