I'm shocked that nobody has mentioned the impact that these sales has on the trade imbalance between the US and South Korea and China.
You can say that purchasing coin is only supporting the problem. That is true. Paying protection money to the mob is supporting organized crime. Buying gasoline for your car is probably supporting terrorists somewhere. Buying produce from California is supporting illegal immigrants. Most products that Americans buy are probably made in a sweatshop someplace in a developing nation. These are facts. People support problems every day. I figured that out when I was young and wanted to boycott bad companies, and realized that I would need to live like the Amish.
The real problem here is that there is a black market, and the black market distorts the in-game economies. This creates a positive feedback loop, with the distortions driving more people to enter the black market and thereby creating greater distortion. In general, the cost of individualized policing against the black marketeers is not in the interest of the game companies unless the markets entirely destabilize, which is why in some games there are bots running around farming with impunity (it just isn't worth it to monitor). Game mechanics can be manipulated in some cases to try to cut down on the problem (for example, when EQ2 placed restrictions on freebie newb accounts sending in game spam, which was a major marketing tool). However, these are limited.
Here is a problem that I face. In most online games that I play, I am perpetually broke. The games are designed to be money sinks, as a way to stop inflation. I can and do farm to get coin, but I cannot compete in markets dominated by sub-minimum wage professional farmers and people with no outside life. This is leading me to play single-player games more and more, because I am not purchasing the coin -- not because I can't afford it or find it immoral, but rather because I am worried that it will become a habit.
Also, I spent a bunch of money back in EQ in the day, and I got nice stuff that exists on characters that I never play and which has become trash compared to the newest swag. I'm just not sure that the cost/benefit analysis works for me.
I know my opinion won't be popular but it is mine. I don't agree with buying/selling virtual property that is not supported by the company who owns the game the property is coming from. I don't buy into the arguement about not having the time either. If MMORPGs is the game one wants to play and have fun then live with the way it is designed. I see people say "But I want to be UBER also" when they say they do it or support it when not approved of by the company. I personally would be playing a different game if I wanted to be UBER. Yes there are benefits to having more time but generally that will come down to how one uses it.
So people who don't have as much time as other people should be denied SIGNIFICANT portions of the game? Please tell me how it would be utterly possible for a guy who spends 10 hours a week to come into a PvP game (however it's done on your MMO, arena, siege, battleground, whatever...) and not get killed in 5 seconds? That's where buying equipment comes into play....
Yes, some of us do like to buy to become UBER, however, some of us buy because we have no choice. Why should we be denied certain aspects of the game because we don't have time to commit to it? (I know someone's going to mention Raiding, but since that requires more than just time, that requires knowing people as well, I'd consider that a debate for another topic)
The respective gaming/software companies could sell currency, items, and levelled toons if they wanted... but they don't. So, in essence, the companies that do it for them are 'illegal' or breaking the EULA/TOS, whatev.
If someone wants to pay $15/mo for an account AND an extra $20-100 for currency, why not? Blizzard, SOE, etc.,... should all take the those services over and offer them through their own channels.
Sure, many will disagree with this tactic. Fantastic.
But if the cash is funding the gaming company, then it gives them more $$ for expansions,etc.,... If you aren't someone who pays for currency, then they are actually helping pave your way for you a bit. Yeah, you still pay your $15/mo and you'll probably have to pay for the expansion when it hits, but their cash is going towards keeping your game around.
Sweat shops could be an issue. That is indeed one aspect of this that is 'wrong'. It just is. But then again, I'm betting that most of us are wearing clothing made via shops right across the darkened alley-way from the credit grinders shops.
As for the point that someone else makes: daddy bought some kid a 1337 toon, blah, blah, blah. The have's and the have not's. More often than not, when someone gets an eBay toon, they get ownd. They have NO CLUE how to run it and are lousy.
Back to the currency thing... it's wrong because the EULA says it is. Outside of that... no biggie. I could care less. Those people don't wear signs saying 'hey, I bought currency' and they typically don't taunt by saying 'my RL cash bought me the weapon that I just used to pwn you'. Or, when you kill someone in PvP, it's not exactly a scenario where you know whether or not they ground for that item or paid with their VISA for it.
Now I would never want to criticize people for paying a little extra if they don,t have time to play.
However I remember when SWG introduced the antidecay kits. Prices inflated so much after those things were introduced.
People ran out to buys credits so they could buy the kits in game. Prices swelled so much a new player would have a hard time buying armor from another player since prices were so high for a while. If anything credit farming is BS I think if your going to buy things virtual it should be the items them selves. Whats the difference? Inflation stays low and people can still buy stuff in the earlier levels off the quest coin they get. Instead of having to farm it them selves to get what they want.
Necrofirm said that most sellers require your login details to farm gold for you. Not true. Anyone who gives out their login details to a game is asking to have all of their items/gold stolen and their char deleted. I have bought gold in some MMOs I played in the past (mostly in EQ where I was effectively playing multi-year catchup since I started playing years later than most people I knew) and none of the buys required login details.
Ragemore said that paying real money for in-game currency would destroy games like EVE Online. If so, then why does CCP support it (pay real money for a game-time code and sell it for ISK with their blessing).
Most companies don't like it for one reason - they don't get money from it.
The simple way to get people to stop paying money for gold/plat/whatever is for devs to stop designing games that are nothing but item farm-fests. If items are more important than the actual char development, then there will be a market for gold. As a counter-example, there is no reason I can see to buy currency in CoX (although somebody must as I've seen it for sale) as it is not an item-centric game.
Active: D&D Online (alpha,beta,&unlimited)
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This article, and the one who wrote it, are complete rubbish. This site should do itself a favor and upgrade its respectability by letting Joe know his opinions and services are no longer required on the site.
Many have said, and I agree, that it is NOT the act of buying and selling in-game items for real life currency that is the issue at all. It is, in fact, the violation of the game's policy, which was introduced specifically as an element of the gameplay the company envisions. Like any other game, if you don't like it, go play something else. It's not your decision on whether or not it's fair or just. If the company decides that such an activity is fine, they can introduce some sort of company-sponsored ability to engage in this sort of buying and selling. Sony has introduced a reasonable model in EQ2, and I believe that other companies would do the same if the suggestion was made enough times by consumers. People need to realize that if gold farmers and people willing to solicit their services did not exist, the economies of all online games would be perfectly balanced. Those ultra-expensive items would plummet in price to something reasonable given what someone could amass only through in-game transactions.
Joe does not discuss the ups and downs of the secondary market, at least not accurately. Essentially, the "up" of the secondary market is that those who participate in it (cheat) make things worse for everyone, both themselves and others, by artificially inflating the economy and making it necessary to farm/buy even MORE money to purchase the next item. This benefits only those with too much disposable time (layabouts) or too much disposable income (ever heard of charity donations?), and yet exploits both of those resources the more such activities take place. So, even the one benefit to the secondary market has an inherent downside that takes place the instant the exchange is made.
Please, let's just stop discussing such ridiculous positions from people who look as though they either failed Economics, or never took it to begin with.
Another aspect of the issue is who owns the gold. In the EULA the items in the game belong to the game producers. i.e. the gold we have spent time getting belongs to them. Personally I think that since we have spent the time getting the gold we have a vested ownership of it. We ought to be able to use the gold like we want. If I want to spend it on gear, buy items from the AH, give it to my guild, or even sell it to others on ebay that should be my decision not the company who made the game.
The way that it hurts the game is if people are duplicating gold and not earning it.
If your boss at work told you how you could spen the money you earned at work you'd be pretty upset.
I have never bought gold or ingame items or characters. Never. But I have also never had a problem with the inflated economies that are a result of gold buyers/sellers either. Really, if the price of items on vendors/auction houses is so bad and inflated that you have to buy in-game currency to get them then fine. But I've never had a problem with it. It's simple economics. If buying things at current rates get you down then find something and sell it at the same current rates. You will automatically keep up with current trends. In most games it's almost impossible to be excluded from the ingame economies as inflated markets generally inflate EVERYTHING. Sure you are spending more, but you are also getting paid more for selling in the same market. Nobody loses and nobody really wins in these scenarios. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have never been out pve'ing in a game and not found something of some value to someone within the game...
Originally posted by Finewheels Another aspect of the issue is who owns the gold. In the EULA the items in the game belong to the game producers. i.e. the gold we have spent time getting belongs to them. Personally I think that since we have spent the time getting the gold we have a vested ownership of it. We ought to be able to use the gold like we want. If I want to spend it on gear, buy items from the AH, give it to my guild, or even sell it to others on ebay that should be my decision not the company who made the game. The way that it hurts the game is if people are duplicating gold and not earning it. If your boss at work told you how you could spen the money you earned at work you'd be pretty upset.
You were doing fine until you said you could sell it on eBay... Then the fallacy comes forth. What you do on their servers is acceptable as long as it is not in violation of the rules set forth FOR those servers. Your $15 a month buys you access to the servers to play the game, period. It doesn't entitle you to ANYTHING beyond that. Your time spent does not entitle you to turn around and earn any of that server access time back. It does allow you to spend your in game aquisitions and buy items within the in game economy, however. Again, this is not subject to debate. You agreed to their policies before you ever logged into the game. If you aren't comfortable with that arrangement, or what you're getting for your monthly fee, then go elsewhere. Just because you don't think you're getting enough doesn't mean you're right, and it doesn't mean you're entitled to do what you want. Furthermore, by selling virtual items for real currency, you're doing your part to ensure the game fails long before it normally would by destroying the in game economy. I'm not expecting this to matter to you, since you apparently have no compunction about lying, but maybe, just maybe, you'll see the hole in your logic...
If the issue of breaking the EULA was set aside, I don't really feel there is anything unethical with buying gold. I'll earn mine, thank you very much -- but if you want to buy yours, it's your money!
I just really really really hate the spamming tells in-game.
Sweat shops my Ar$e ... If there is a SWEATSHOP that you get paid for playing a friggen video game all day where do I apply! I cannot believe the comments from some of you suckup spin doctored idiots that believe everything your fed by the hype machine. If you think these kids that are working for companies that sell on-line currency are being DEPRIVED of something .. you need to stay in school .. or go back to it.
My 2 cents
The difference my friend is the direct sale. You are talking about some nebulous argument that suggests in a round about politcal way we all support bad people. Leaving that discussion for another time, what I was referring to is the direct sale.
If Terriorists open up a car dealership down the road from me, you can bet I'm not buying a car from them. The same goes for people who want to sell me gold, if I know how they get it, then I make a decision based on that knowledge. This is straight forward, and I know plenty of crooks who sell things on Ebay, or thier own online sites, and I choose not to buy from them.
I also choose not to buy from them becuase the games I currently play dont support it, if the dev's offered me a chance to buy a fortune in what ever money thier game has, I would probably do it, as my job allows me the luxury of having spending money, but saying that I would still play through the game for the most part, the way the dev's envisioned players playing it. I dont want to cheat, I will get to the top char level on my own the first time, but after that I should be able to buy the others, going the through the grind a second or third time is no point.
School.....haha, I wish my life was that easy, a few classes, a few tests.....dream off, back to work....
Rage - Head Honcho of the Revilers "Ragemore and Whine Less"
Anyone interested in this subject should seriously do some research....google provides some great hits on things like "gold farming sweatshops" and such:
I'm not going to suggest I have or have not bought gold before, but I have noticed that in December of 2005 1,000 gold could be purchased for as little as $90.....check the average gold farmer site today, and you'll be hard pressed to find 100 gold for less than $50 a pop.....an astronomical increase in cost. This wouldn't be happening if people weren't willing and possibly able to shell out the money for it.
This seems like a hard thing for Blizzard and other companies to enforce, too. How does one tell the difference between a legitimate in-game exchange (say my GF sends me some pity gold for my baby Draenei) vs. a gold farmer paying you off? Even if it looks obviously suspicious (and any 1,000 G transaction would look suspicious, I suspect) the reality is, it's very difficult to prove, I suspect, without other evidence gathered, such as proof of bot farming and so forth.
Now, I do think that the possible concern in ethical work conditions for gold farmers should be valid. If there are, possibly, workers farming gold who receive substandard wages and work conditions, that needs to be addressed....but I am not sure that a sufficient case has been made for this accusation. Much of what I have read is that, in terms of the local economy for gold farmers, they are superior and desired jobs. I doubt gold farming happens in the states, though; Americans hate repetitive work without big compensation, even if we will willingly pay Blizzard to let us do it month after month.
In the end, I think Blizzard (and others) would do well to take control of the obviously strong market for RL purchases of virtual content by providing their own "WoW-bay". Set up an official auction site, where the terms of agreement allow players to officially and without violation make trades for items either in virtual or real cash. I think that would go a long way towards aiding casual players like myself, and Blizzard would profti from it by controlling the environment and establishing their cut, just like Ebay does with it's real world auctions. An idea, anyway....
ok first: Buying ingame currency for RL money there are many Pro's and con's to this..... but first of all who sets the ingame economy at first it's the developer but as a game grows it is more and more the players that set the prices of items and services..... The more time u can spend playing the more u can afford and make..... but then too play unless your ultra rich or a student or at school then u have to work in real life to pay for it.... so whats the solution... there won't ever be a solution thats life in the real world to afford things u want u need too work to get them it's the same in a game too.....
Personally i'm all for combatting people using bots and cheats to make ingame money to sell for real life money not for the money they are making but for the problems they cause too the game stability and the time the game developers and creators have to spend combating them instead of being able too work on new and intresting ingame advances too storyline, visual effects game stability and game item's..... thats the reason i play a game .... if it takes me a year of casual play too get what i need then so be it thats what i'll do... if i want a quick fix i'll play an offline game on my games console or pc and use cheat codes, edits and walkthroughs that way not effecting anyone elses game experience...
If the developers want to offer the ability to buy ingame money for there games from them so not breaking there EULA then thats upto them... personally with most first person combat games and quest games that will just result in heavy server lag and in high lvl area's which would destroy the gaming experience.... some games though no matter how much ingame money u have the game is about personal skill and control of your character that u can't buy.....
I play EvE and my main character is a manufacturer and after only a few months he could manufacture goods to sell ingame that even while i wasn't logged in i would be making ingame money thats a feature of eve EvE biggest problem is macro miners who are there for the sole purpose to mine lots of ore to sell for ingame currency that they can sell for real life money and this causes frustration too the mining players due too the empty belts they leave behind... in my corp it took us 3 hr's with 15 of us mining too clear an asteroid belt .... macro miners do this in a fraction of the time there not there to play their there to make rl money...
The Big Question is what are they using the Real Life Money they make to do...
Would u buy ingame money from someone if u knew that they where using it too fund crime or terrorism or too buy drugs... these are all possibilities.... ok a bit extreme maybe but possible...think on it next time u feel tempted too buy some ingame money for whatever game u play....
1) Transfer of and or sharing of an account. (very common)
2) Modification of gaming files w/o authorization (hacks, radar, etc)
3) Use of vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, harmful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, or ethnically, racially, or otherwise objectionable language in game, forums, events, or communications. This includes all in-game communication channels, regardless of filters. (never seen any of this in your games, have you?)
4) Naming violations of characters, pets, i.e. .names that violates anyone's trademarks, publicity rights or other proprietary rights (this happens all the time I'm afraid... as much as 50% of the names on a server can violate the naming policy)
5) Organization of guilds or groups that promote racism, sexism, etc etc... (these normally squashed if they become too public, but there still are guilds that are extremely nationalistic..i.e. all Americans, all Koreans, etc )
6) Communicating any players real world information..including name, address, account names etx.
7) Use, communicate to other players, condone or promote the use of Exploitation. Exploitation is defined as the use of any bug, undocumented feature, or any weakness in the game for the benefit of a player, group, or guild. (another common violation)
8) Harrassment of other players
9) Disclosure of passwords to other parties (be it friends to share accounts or powerleveling services to level characters)
10) Conduct yourself in a manner that disrupts the immersion of other players (how many RP only servers would like to see this one enforced once in a while)
11) Use, post, host or distribute macros, “bots” or other programs which would allow unattended game play or which otherwise impact game play.
12) Buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Game account, characters, items, coin (the topic of our discussion today).
So, we can all agree...every one of the items on the above list violates almost every MMORPG games Eula/TOC. Gold selling and the alike are no different from any of the otherrs. Each has the power to detract from other players enjoyment of the game who follow the rules to the letter of the law.
Many of the people on this thread (and elsewhere) who condem gold buying with a passion freely break one or more of these other rules. (to those of you who don't and never have... can you walk on water too?)
He who lives in a glass house should not cast the first stone.
Please, do not give me the argument that gold buying is a much worse "sin" than a naming violation. I don't care if you think it totally destroys a games economy, you're mistaken about that (I've got a massive post I can make regarding the economies of MMO games and the effects of farming). There are inflationary impacts to be sure, but game companies can make adjustements to compensate for it. Blizzard actually has done a decent job in reducing the impacts of gold farming. (of course, they can't eliminate them)
Most folks in this world break "rules'" and laws in both real life and in games (ever drive faster than the speed limit? Or drink alchohol before you were the age of 21?) Its only in competitive sports (and games) that we suddenly get all self-righteous and start saying people are "cheating" when they break a rule. Of course they are...everyone tries to get an edge wherever they can. It doesn't make it right, or fair, or honest...
it just makes it true.... that's life...both in game and in the real world. Its imperfect, and we have to learn to deal with and overcome it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is an argument that has trickled down and snowballed into an avalanche over the years.
I play THE oldest MMO and let me tell you it is hard to play. When I started this game I was 21 or 22, can't remember. It was easier then, there were no serious responsibilities. My main concern was what I was going to do that weekend (which started on thursday) and who I might get lucky with. I had lots of time to play and was very advanced in the game. Specially since I could come home at 4 in the morning on an unlucky night and go straight to the computer and wait for server up. Sometimes I would play till 2 or 3pm, catch a 3 hours of sleep and off to partying again. Times when my body could run on 3 to 4 hours of sleep a day for sometimes 2 weeks straight before crashing into a one weekend hibernation.
Now? It is definitely not the same. I work a minimum of 47 hours a week, I have a mortgage, a wife, a daughter, all things that demand most of my time. When I come home like now, I have time for a quick checkup on my personal email then its "look at what I did today daddy" and "..so i told my mother that she can come over but that.....and my sister said.....and remember that girl from school?...". A quick shower, possibly a tv show with my daughter before dinner. Finally there's the catch-up game with my wife who keeps me informed on the world outside work which finally leaves me with maybe two hours on weekdays. Weekends is better with perhaps 8 hours over the course of two days if I am lucky.
Meanwhile, there are kids now as young as 10 years old playing this game and that is all they do. They play this game day and night, these kids own the dungeons, they farm gold by the millions in a day while i have to wait as long as two weeks before I see 1mil gold. Then you have updates coming out every 3 months it seems now. New dungeons, new items, new player classes. For an old geezer of 31 like me, it is impossible to keep up. When I go to the dungeons to get these 'new' items I cant get them because my gear is not up to par with these kid's gear.
Finally what do you have to do? Buy gold. Its the only way to stay in the game. It is not cheating. For someone who can play more than 40 hours a week its not a necessity, but for the average hardworking individual that does not have mom or dad pay for their accounts, buying gold is a must. Who's fault is it? The developers.
You have to realize that the only people making money are the developers. They don't want you to have a real life. The more time you spend in the game, the less time you have to go to other games. Likewise, the more money you put into the game the more it becomes an investment that you do not want to relinquish.
How do they make money? Let me break it down the way I see it.
Monthly fees - Most games now have it that you lose your char or lose valuables (like houses) if you do not maintain your subscription so players who are not even playing are still paying for their accounts just so they don't lose their belongings.
Updates/Expansions - This is their big money maker. Every 3 months they have their user base spend from $20 to $30 on expansions otherwise they will not be able to use the new items or new dungeons. Think about it, 250k users paying $20 every 3 months. In case you have not added it up it comes out to $20 Million dollars every year. $20 Million. And some companies have more than 250k users.
Game Codes/Tokens - You CAN buy game codes and tokens for certain items in most games but only certain items that were given as gifts or are event items. Usually between $9.99 and $29.99.
So why are they so angry when players buy gold in order to CONTINUE playing their game? Instead of getting angry and declaring it cheating, why not fix the problem? How? Well there are several ways. How about making it so High End items can only be earned and untradeable? Make it so your chances of getting an item are based solely on your char and its level and its performance as opposed to codes like random generators bases on player damage? There are many more ideas and solutions.
Why not spend the next quarter on fixing this problem instead of creating the new expansion? Oh thats right, I forgot...this is a capitalist economy. That is why we buy gold. There is a need, a demand for it. There is a clientele. As long as this clientele exists, Virtual Gold will be a flourishing industry and nothing can stop it. Not complaints, not threats by the game companies not even Ebay's policy enforcement. Players always have and will always continue to find a way.
My job takes too much of my time to respond properly to this....so......I will have to pay to have someone write a comment on why I pay for someone else to farm for in game currency.
I'm with you! Well said. I hired a assistant to post in forums for me.
This article, and the one who wrote it, are complete rubbish. This site should do itself a favor and upgrade its respectability by letting Joe know his opinions and services are no longer required on the site. Many have said, and I agree, that it is NOT the act of buying and selling in-game items for real life currency that is the issue at all. It is, in fact, the violation of the game's policy, which was introduced specifically as an element of the gameplay the company envisions. Like any other game, if you don't like it, go play something else. It's not your decision on whether or not it's fair or just. If the company decides that such an activity is fine, they can introduce some sort of company-sponsored ability to engage in this sort of buying and selling. Sony has introduced a reasonable model in EQ2, and I believe that other companies would do the same if the suggestion was made enough times by consumers. People need to realize that if gold farmers and people willing to solicit their services did not exist, the economies of all online games would be perfectly balanced. Those ultra-expensive items would plummet in price to something reasonable given what someone could amass only through in-game transactions. Joe does not discuss the ups and downs of the secondary market, at least not accurately. Essentially, the "up" of the secondary market is that those who participate in it (cheat) make things worse for everyone, both themselves and others, by artificially inflating the economy and making it necessary to farm/buy even MORE money to purchase the next item. This benefits only those with too much disposable time (layabouts) or too much disposable income (ever heard of charity donations?), and yet exploits both of those resources the more such activities take place. So, even the one benefit to the secondary market has an inherent downside that takes place the instant the exchange is made. Please, let's just stop discussing such ridiculous positions from people who look as though they either failed Economics, or never took it to begin with.
Ok, you either work for a gaming company or you are incredibly . Someone else pointed out in this forum and I agree that you would be pissed off if your boss told you how to spend your money. There is nothing that says that it is illegal to sell gold in the User Agreement. It does say the company owns the game and all parts thereof. What that means is that you cannot steal the code and use it for your own use. You are not stealing the code. It is property that your char owns in the game. I believe this is going to be a major point that will be used in court because if you don't see it going to court you are just nuts. This property stays in the game. You worked for it, you spent your time and it is yours. You can do with it what you wish.
Illegally obtained property by the use of scripts and abusing bugs in the game IS cheating and SHOULD be addressed harshly. I'll let Interpol deal with the people in game sweatshops in china. As for me, I make a very good living here in the use eating MCDonald's and going to the theater to see happy feet and driving my BMW. I worked hard for it. Just like someone worked hard for that gold. If they don't want people buying it, they should make items untradeable or sell gold themselves that way they can control gold prices.
This article, and the one who wrote it, are complete rubbish. This site should do itself a favor and upgrade its respectability by letting Joe know his opinions and services are no longer required on the site. Many have said, and I agree, that it is NOT the act of buying and selling in-game items for real life currency that is the issue at all. It is, in fact, the violation of the game's policy, which was introduced specifically as an element of the gameplay the company envisions. Like any other game, if you don't like it, go play something else. It's not your decision on whether or not it's fair or just. If the company decides that such an activity is fine, they can introduce some sort of company-sponsored ability to engage in this sort of buying and selling. Sony has introduced a reasonable model in EQ2, and I believe that other companies would do the same if the suggestion was made enough times by consumers. People need to realize that if gold farmers and people willing to solicit their services did not exist, the economies of all online games would be perfectly balanced. Those ultra-expensive items would plummet in price to something reasonable given what someone could amass only through in-game transactions. Joe does not discuss the ups and downs of the secondary market, at least not accurately. Essentially, the "up" of the secondary market is that those who participate in it (cheat) make things worse for everyone, both themselves and others, by artificially inflating the economy and making it necessary to farm/buy even MORE money to purchase the next item. This benefits only those with too much disposable time (layabouts) or too much disposable income (ever heard of charity donations?), and yet exploits both of those resources the more such activities take place. So, even the one benefit to the secondary market has an inherent downside that takes place the instant the exchange is made. Please, let's just stop discussing such ridiculous positions from people who look as though they either failed Economics, or never took it to begin with.
Ok, you either work for a gaming company or you are incredibly . Someone else pointed out in this forum and I agree that you would be pissed off if your boss told you how to spend your money. There is nothing that says that it is illegal to sell gold in the User Agreement. It does say the company owns the game and all parts thereof. What that means is that you cannot steal the code and use it for your own use. You are not stealing the code. It is property that your char owns in the game. I believe this is going to be a major point that will be used in court because if you don't see it going to court you are just nuts. This property stays in the game. You worked for it, you spent your time and it is yours. You can do with it what you wish.
Illegally obtained property by the use of scripts and abusing bugs in the game IS cheating and SHOULD be addressed harshly. I'll let Interpol deal with the people in game sweatshops in china. As for me, I make a very good living here in the use eating MCDonald's and going to the theater to see happy feet and driving my BMW. I worked hard for it. Just like someone worked hard for that gold. If they don't want people buying it, they should make items untradeable or sell gold themselves that way they can control gold prices.
Originally posted by Talargain Ok, you either work for a gaming company or you are incredibly . Someone else pointed out in this forum and I agree that you would be pissed off if your boss told you how to spend your money. There is nothing that says that it is illegal to sell gold in the User Agreement. It does say the company owns the game and all parts thereof. What that means is that you cannot steal the code and use it for your own use. You are not stealing the code. It is property that your char owns in the game. I believe this is going to be a major point that will be used in court because if you don't see it going to court you are just nuts. This property stays in the game. You worked for it, you spent your time and it is yours. You can do with it what you wish. Illegally obtained property by the use of scripts and abusing bugs in the game IS cheating and SHOULD be addressed harshly. I'll let Interpol deal with the people in game sweatshops in china. As for me, I make a very good living here in the use eating MCDonald's and going to the theater to see happy feet and driving my BMW. I worked hard for it. Just like someone worked hard for that gold. If they don't want people buying it, they should make items untradeable or sell gold themselves that way they can control gold prices.
I hate to break it to you, but comparing apples (your wages from a job in real life) to oranges (your virtual currency from an online game) doesn't even begin to validate your point. Things that happen in game are the sole right of the company that produces the game. They let you know what your purchase is buying you, AND what your continued patronage affords you, plain and simple. You are not afforded any special rights in game that you think you deserve based on some misguided attempt to translate real life activities into in game equivalents, even though that probably doesn't make much sense to you since they SEEM so similar. The difference, of course, is you are in a virtual world that is not your property, that the actions you take within that world and the things you acquire are yours only at the discretion of the game makers. If they change the license agreement, which they can do at any time, and give themselves the right to randomly strip one character a day bare, remove all of their items and money, adding it as a feature called "Victim of Master Thief," they can do it. It probably wouldn't entice players to stick around if there wasn't some rewarding counterbalance, but you get my point. Just because it seems "fair" to you to be able to do these things doesn't give you the RIGHT to do them.
As to why it is punished by gaming companies, well, that's already been discussed. As unfortunate as it might be for the working class of the world that they don't have all of the best stuff because their real life is too demanding, it remains lamentable, but still inappropriate, to violate the wishes of the people who are running the servers you play on, and who set the rules for those servers, no matter how much you pay a month and how much you think that entitles you to behave how you like. Companies set rules against gold selling NOT to deprive the working people of the world the best items in the game when they feel they deserve them, but to ensure that ALL people in the game have a working in game economy to buy and sell from, and that the items that you want to buy are reasonably priced so that buying extra gold or items is unnecessary, even for those who can't play all the time. Were you able to look a bit past your own needs for instant gratification and justifying your behavior, you might see how this policy is meant to protect EVERY player, not just people who fall into your particular circumstance.
What a totally stupid idea - not suprised its SOE involved. Yes of course the better off are going to take advantage of it, but those of us who remember that sheesh, its meant to be fun and a game, not a job opportunity. To most of us, it means that critters that drop a much wanted item, would just not get past the farmers to get it, or find our favourite spots camped silly by the gold farmers trying to make a living - im sure they wont mind if you turn up and try to get the item. This means that everywhere with items of any worth would have to be instanced - how boring would that be. How many other companies will follow suite after seeing how much SOE (bleh hate even typing that name) have made from just 2 servers? Cant wait to see what happens to the millions who play wow if they turned round announcing that they will be offering the same kind of thing on their servers. When new games are released, i hope they offer these "trader" servers as well as normal ones - normal ones fer us normal game players, and trade ones to get rid of the dam farmers and those who just want to buy their way to an endgame where they......um.....buy more?
It's up to the developers, if the game has outside financial influence built into it's design, then secondary markets are fine.
If not, then it is not "ok" to buy gold or items with real money. The policy should be enforced strictly by the developer/service provider, by account suspension, bans, and or legal action.
One last item: I also believe that a developer holds no monopoly over secondary market should they choose to allow it. Meaning if a player is allowed to buy gold, they have every right to buy from the lowest bidder.
I won't bother with details and arguments. Games have rules, so if you don't like the rules, then don't play the game.
It's really very simple.
No more Trivial MMO's, let's get serious "again". Make a world, not a game What I listen to
Fortunately, the arguments against the secondary market are easily destroyed by one simple fact. Since everything is so terribly inflated (despite the fact that inflation is a natural part of MMO economies), you can sell anything you find for the inflated prices, thus making you just as well off as you would be if inflation did not exists. If all the low-level items are inflated, all the newcomers can sell the low level items they find for inflated prices, thus making them just as well off as if inflation didn't exist.
I really love it when a vocal minority tries to force their morals and will on everyone else. We are definately an enlightened species. /sarcasm off
Well this is one of the things that are appearing more and more in MMO's. Its the distinction between the real world and a 'Virtual' world. I mean we all know the dynamics of a single player game. You play to raise your levels, gain items or points toward the goal of the game. Your reward? To see the story through and find out how it ends.
It doesn't work like that in a virtual world. Because its just that, a world. There is no script, there is a story or theme but its not something you follow. Its open ended....that means it goes on and on till you get tired of it. In their goal to make the game like a real world the developers suceeded.
But it has gone beyond what they expected. These games have gained a life of their own. Do you think it would be possible for SOE to end EQ? Is it possible now? What would be the repercusions? Do you know how many people are addicted to EQ? They have support groups just for EQ addiction.
When corporations first came into being, who would have thought that they would become living entities? Nobody. They would have called you crazy among other things. But thats what corporations are...living entities by law. So have these games become, an entire new world to which 'normal' laws need not apply.
True, these companies developed these games....they run them. But the games have evolved to be more. You watch. This virtual property issue is just the beginning. These virtual properties have a real monetary value.
Fortunately, the arguments against the secondary market are easily destroyed by one simple fact. Since everything is so terribly inflated (despite the fact that inflation is a natural part of MMO economies), you can sell anything you find for the inflated prices, thus making you just as well off as you would be if inflation did not exists. If all the low-level items are inflated, all the newcomers can sell the low level items they find for inflated prices, thus making them just as well off as if inflation didn't exist. I really love it when a vocal minority tries to force their morals and will on everyone else. We are definately an enlightened species. /sarcasm off
Exactly!! Its like saying that Wonder Bread now costs $15 a loaf. But they are not telling you that everyone now makes $800,000 a year.
I really love it when a vocal minority tries to force their morals and will on everyone else. We are definately an enlightened species. /sarcasm off
Well said.
This arguement has two sides. The two sides should agree to disagree.
When making a game, choose wich way you want players to play the game. With a seconday virtual item market, or without. There is no middle ground.
There are too many middle ground games lately. I dont want a game that caters to everyone. I want a game that caters to the competative gamer. That is why I play games!
Comments
I'm shocked that nobody has mentioned the impact that these sales has on the trade imbalance between the US and South Korea and China.
You can say that purchasing coin is only supporting the problem. That is true. Paying protection money to the mob is supporting organized crime. Buying gasoline for your car is probably supporting terrorists somewhere. Buying produce from California is supporting illegal immigrants. Most products that Americans buy are probably made in a sweatshop someplace in a developing nation. These are facts. People support problems every day. I figured that out when I was young and wanted to boycott bad companies, and realized that I would need to live like the Amish.
The real problem here is that there is a black market, and the black market distorts the in-game economies. This creates a positive feedback loop, with the distortions driving more people to enter the black market and thereby creating greater distortion. In general, the cost of individualized policing against the black marketeers is not in the interest of the game companies unless the markets entirely destabilize, which is why in some games there are bots running around farming with impunity (it just isn't worth it to monitor). Game mechanics can be manipulated in some cases to try to cut down on the problem (for example, when EQ2 placed restrictions on freebie newb accounts sending in game spam, which was a major marketing tool). However, these are limited.
Here is a problem that I face. In most online games that I play, I am perpetually broke. The games are designed to be money sinks, as a way to stop inflation. I can and do farm to get coin, but I cannot compete in markets dominated by sub-minimum wage professional farmers and people with no outside life. This is leading me to play single-player games more and more, because I am not purchasing the coin -- not because I can't afford it or find it immoral, but rather because I am worried that it will become a habit.
Also, I spent a bunch of money back in EQ in the day, and I got nice stuff that exists on characters that I never play and which has become trash compared to the newest swag. I'm just not sure that the cost/benefit analysis works for me.
Yes, some of us do like to buy to become UBER, however, some of us buy because we have no choice. Why should we be denied certain aspects of the game because we don't have time to commit to it? (I know someone's going to mention Raiding, but since that requires more than just time, that requires knowing people as well, I'd consider that a debate for another topic)
The respective gaming/software companies could sell currency, items, and levelled toons if they wanted... but they don't. So, in essence, the companies that do it for them are 'illegal' or breaking the EULA/TOS, whatev.
If someone wants to pay $15/mo for an account AND an extra $20-100 for currency, why not? Blizzard, SOE, etc.,... should all take the those services over and offer them through their own channels.
Sure, many will disagree with this tactic. Fantastic.
But if the cash is funding the gaming company, then it gives them more $$ for expansions,etc.,... If you aren't someone who pays for currency, then they are actually helping pave your way for you a bit. Yeah, you still pay your $15/mo and you'll probably have to pay for the expansion when it hits, but their cash is going towards keeping your game around.
Sweat shops could be an issue. That is indeed one aspect of this that is 'wrong'. It just is. But then again, I'm betting that most of us are wearing clothing made via shops right across the darkened alley-way from the credit grinders shops.
As for the point that someone else makes: daddy bought some kid a 1337 toon, blah, blah, blah. The have's and the have not's. More often than not, when someone gets an eBay toon, they get ownd. They have NO CLUE how to run it and are lousy.
Back to the currency thing... it's wrong because the EULA says it is. Outside of that... no biggie. I could care less. Those people don't wear signs saying 'hey, I bought currency' and they typically don't taunt by saying 'my RL cash bought me the weapon that I just used to pwn you'. Or, when you kill someone in PvP, it's not exactly a scenario where you know whether or not they ground for that item or paid with their VISA for it.
Let it go. To each their own.
However I remember when SWG introduced the antidecay kits. Prices inflated so much after those things were introduced.
People ran out to buys credits so they could buy the kits in game. Prices swelled so much a new player would have a hard time buying armor from another player since prices were so high for a while. If anything credit farming is BS I think if your going to buy things virtual it should be the items them selves. Whats the difference? Inflation stays low and people can still buy stuff in the earlier levels off the quest coin they get. Instead of having to farm it them selves to get what they want.
Freemen
Necrofirm said that most sellers require your login details to farm gold for you. Not true. Anyone who gives out their login details to a game is asking to have all of their items/gold stolen and their char deleted. I have bought gold in some MMOs I played in the past (mostly in EQ where I was effectively playing multi-year catchup since I started playing years later than most people I knew) and none of the buys required login details.
Ragemore said that paying real money for in-game currency would destroy games like EVE Online. If so, then why does CCP support it (pay real money for a game-time code and sell it for ISK with their blessing).
Most companies don't like it for one reason - they don't get money from it.
The simple way to get people to stop paying money for gold/plat/whatever is for devs to stop designing games that are nothing but item farm-fests. If items are more important than the actual char development, then there will be a market for gold. As a counter-example, there is no reason I can see to buy currency in CoX (although somebody must as I've seen it for sale) as it is not an item-centric game.
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This article, and the one who wrote it, are complete rubbish. This site should do itself a favor and upgrade its respectability by letting Joe know his opinions and services are no longer required on the site.
Many have said, and I agree, that it is NOT the act of buying and selling in-game items for real life currency that is the issue at all. It is, in fact, the violation of the game's policy, which was introduced specifically as an element of the gameplay the company envisions. Like any other game, if you don't like it, go play something else. It's not your decision on whether or not it's fair or just. If the company decides that such an activity is fine, they can introduce some sort of company-sponsored ability to engage in this sort of buying and selling. Sony has introduced a reasonable model in EQ2, and I believe that other companies would do the same if the suggestion was made enough times by consumers. People need to realize that if gold farmers and people willing to solicit their services did not exist, the economies of all online games would be perfectly balanced. Those ultra-expensive items would plummet in price to something reasonable given what someone could amass only through in-game transactions.
Joe does not discuss the ups and downs of the secondary market, at least not accurately. Essentially, the "up" of the secondary market is that those who participate in it (cheat) make things worse for everyone, both themselves and others, by artificially inflating the economy and making it necessary to farm/buy even MORE money to purchase the next item. This benefits only those with too much disposable time (layabouts) or too much disposable income (ever heard of charity donations?), and yet exploits both of those resources the more such activities take place. So, even the one benefit to the secondary market has an inherent downside that takes place the instant the exchange is made.
Please, let's just stop discussing such ridiculous positions from people who look as though they either failed Economics, or never took it to begin with.
Another aspect of the issue is who owns the gold. In the EULA the items in the game belong to the game producers. i.e. the gold we have spent time getting belongs to them. Personally I think that since we have spent the time getting the gold we have a vested ownership of it. We ought to be able to use the gold like we want. If I want to spend it on gear, buy items from the AH, give it to my guild, or even sell it to others on ebay that should be my decision not the company who made the game.
The way that it hurts the game is if people are duplicating gold and not earning it.
If your boss at work told you how you could spen the money you earned at work you'd be pretty upset.
I have just a few comments:
I have never bought gold or ingame items or characters. Never. But I have also never had a problem with the inflated economies that are a result of gold buyers/sellers either. Really, if the price of items on vendors/auction houses is so bad and inflated that you have to buy in-game currency to get them then fine. But I've never had a problem with it. It's simple economics. If buying things at current rates get you down then find something and sell it at the same current rates. You will automatically keep up with current trends. In most games it's almost impossible to be excluded from the ingame economies as inflated markets generally inflate EVERYTHING. Sure you are spending more, but you are also getting paid more for selling in the same market. Nobody loses and nobody really wins in these scenarios. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have never been out pve'ing in a game and not found something of some value to someone within the game...
You were doing fine until you said you could sell it on eBay... Then the fallacy comes forth. What you do on their servers is acceptable as long as it is not in violation of the rules set forth FOR those servers. Your $15 a month buys you access to the servers to play the game, period. It doesn't entitle you to ANYTHING beyond that. Your time spent does not entitle you to turn around and earn any of that server access time back. It does allow you to spend your in game aquisitions and buy items within the in game economy, however. Again, this is not subject to debate. You agreed to their policies before you ever logged into the game. If you aren't comfortable with that arrangement, or what you're getting for your monthly fee, then go elsewhere. Just because you don't think you're getting enough doesn't mean you're right, and it doesn't mean you're entitled to do what you want. Furthermore, by selling virtual items for real currency, you're doing your part to ensure the game fails long before it normally would by destroying the in game economy. I'm not expecting this to matter to you, since you apparently have no compunction about lying, but maybe, just maybe, you'll see the hole in your logic...
I just really really really hate the spamming tells in-game.
The difference my friend is the direct sale. You are talking about some nebulous argument that suggests in a round about politcal way we all support bad people. Leaving that discussion for another time, what I was referring to is the direct sale.
If Terriorists open up a car dealership down the road from me, you can bet I'm not buying a car from them. The same goes for people who want to sell me gold, if I know how they get it, then I make a decision based on that knowledge. This is straight forward, and I know plenty of crooks who sell things on Ebay, or thier own online sites, and I choose not to buy from them.
I also choose not to buy from them becuase the games I currently play dont support it, if the dev's offered me a chance to buy a fortune in what ever money thier game has, I would probably do it, as my job allows me the luxury of having spending money, but saying that I would still play through the game for the most part, the way the dev's envisioned players playing it. I dont want to cheat, I will get to the top char level on my own the first time, but after that I should be able to buy the others, going the through the grind a second or third time is no point.
School.....haha, I wish my life was that easy, a few classes, a few tests.....dream off, back to work....
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Anyone interested in this subject should seriously do some research....google provides some great hits on things like "gold farming sweatshops" and such:
http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article648072.ece
I'm not going to suggest I have or have not bought gold before, but I have noticed that in December of 2005 1,000 gold could be purchased for as little as $90.....check the average gold farmer site today, and you'll be hard pressed to find 100 gold for less than $50 a pop.....an astronomical increase in cost. This wouldn't be happening if people weren't willing and possibly able to shell out the money for it.
This seems like a hard thing for Blizzard and other companies to enforce, too. How does one tell the difference between a legitimate in-game exchange (say my GF sends me some pity gold for my baby Draenei) vs. a gold farmer paying you off? Even if it looks obviously suspicious (and any 1,000 G transaction would look suspicious, I suspect) the reality is, it's very difficult to prove, I suspect, without other evidence gathered, such as proof of bot farming and so forth.
Now, I do think that the possible concern in ethical work conditions for gold farmers should be valid. If there are, possibly, workers farming gold who receive substandard wages and work conditions, that needs to be addressed....but I am not sure that a sufficient case has been made for this accusation. Much of what I have read is that, in terms of the local economy for gold farmers, they are superior and desired jobs. I doubt gold farming happens in the states, though; Americans hate repetitive work without big compensation, even if we will willingly pay Blizzard to let us do it month after month.
In the end, I think Blizzard (and others) would do well to take control of the obviously strong market for RL purchases of virtual content by providing their own "WoW-bay". Set up an official auction site, where the terms of agreement allow players to officially and without violation make trades for items either in virtual or real cash. I think that would go a long way towards aiding casual players like myself, and Blizzard would profti from it by controlling the environment and establishing their cut, just like Ebay does with it's real world auctions. An idea, anyway....
Current MMOs: Rift, GW2, Defiance
Blog: http://realmsofchirak.blogspot.com (old school tabletop gaming and more)
ok first: Buying ingame currency for RL money there are many Pro's and con's to this..... but first of all who sets the ingame economy at first it's the developer but as a game grows it is more and more the players that set the prices of items and services..... The more time u can spend playing the more u can afford and make..... but then too play unless your ultra rich or a student or at school then u have to work in real life to pay for it.... so whats the solution... there won't ever be a solution thats life in the real world to afford things u want u need too work to get them it's the same in a game too.....
Personally i'm all for combatting people using bots and cheats to make ingame money to sell for real life money not for the money they are making but for the problems they cause too the game stability and the time the game developers and creators have to spend combating them instead of being able too work on new and intresting ingame advances too storyline, visual effects game stability and game item's..... thats the reason i play a game .... if it takes me a year of casual play too get what i need then so be it thats what i'll do... if i want a quick fix i'll play an offline game on my games console or pc and use cheat codes, edits and walkthroughs that way not effecting anyone elses game experience...
If the developers want to offer the ability to buy ingame money for there games from them so not breaking there EULA then thats upto them... personally with most first person combat games and quest games that will just result in heavy server lag and in high lvl area's which would destroy the gaming experience.... some games though no matter how much ingame money u have the game is about personal skill and control of your character that u can't buy.....
I play EvE and my main character is a manufacturer and after only a few months he could manufacture goods to sell ingame that even while i wasn't logged in i would be making ingame money thats a feature of eve EvE biggest problem is macro miners who are there for the sole purpose to mine lots of ore to sell for ingame currency that they can sell for real life money and this causes frustration too the mining players due too the empty belts they leave behind... in my corp it took us 3 hr's with 15 of us mining too clear an asteroid belt .... macro miners do this in a fraction of the time there not there to play their there to make rl money...
The Big Question is what are they using the Real Life Money they make to do...
Would u buy ingame money from someone if u knew that they where using it too fund crime or terrorism or too buy drugs... these are all possibilities.... ok a bit extreme maybe but possible...think on it next time u feel tempted too buy some ingame money for whatever game u play....
Common violations of an MMORPG's Eula/TOC
1) Transfer of and or sharing of an account. (very common)
2) Modification of gaming files w/o authorization (hacks, radar, etc)
3) Use of vulgar, obscene, sexually explicit, harmful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, or ethnically, racially, or otherwise objectionable language in game, forums, events, or communications. This includes all in-game communication channels, regardless of filters. (never seen any of this in your games, have you?)
4) Naming violations of characters, pets, i.e. .names that violates anyone's trademarks, publicity rights or other proprietary rights (this happens all the time I'm afraid... as much as 50% of the names on a server can violate the naming policy)
5) Organization of guilds or groups that promote racism, sexism, etc etc... (these normally squashed if they become too public, but there still are guilds that are extremely nationalistic..i.e. all Americans, all Koreans, etc )
6) Communicating any players real world information..including name, address, account names etx.
7) Use, communicate to other players, condone or promote the use of Exploitation. Exploitation is defined as the use of any bug, undocumented feature, or any weakness in the game for the benefit of a player, group, or guild. (another common violation)
8) Harrassment of other players
9) Disclosure of passwords to other parties (be it friends to share accounts or powerleveling services to level characters)
10) Conduct yourself in a manner that disrupts the immersion of other players (how many RP only servers would like to see this one enforced once in a while)
11) Use, post, host or distribute macros, “bots” or other programs which would allow unattended game play or which otherwise impact game play.
12) Buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Game account, characters, items, coin (the topic of our discussion today).
So, we can all agree...every one of the items on the above list violates almost every MMORPG games Eula/TOC. Gold selling and the alike are no different from any of the otherrs. Each has the power to detract from other players enjoyment of the game who follow the rules to the letter of the law.
Many of the people on this thread (and elsewhere) who condem gold buying with a passion freely break one or more of these other rules. (to those of you who don't and never have... can you walk on water too?)
He who lives in a glass house should not cast the first stone.
Please, do not give me the argument that gold buying is a much worse "sin" than a naming violation. I don't care if you think it totally destroys a games economy, you're mistaken about that (I've got a massive post I can make regarding the economies of MMO games and the effects of farming). There are inflationary impacts to be sure, but game companies can make adjustements to compensate for it. Blizzard actually has done a decent job in reducing the impacts of gold farming. (of course, they can't eliminate them)
Most folks in this world break "rules'" and laws in both real life and in games (ever drive faster than the speed limit? Or drink alchohol before you were the age of 21?) Its only in competitive sports (and games) that we suddenly get all self-righteous and start saying people are "cheating" when they break a rule. Of course they are...everyone tries to get an edge wherever they can. It doesn't make it right, or fair, or honest...
it just makes it true.... that's life...both in game and in the real world. Its imperfect, and we have to learn to deal with and overcome it.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is an argument that has trickled down and snowballed into an avalanche over the years.
I play THE oldest MMO and let me tell you it is hard to play. When I started this game I was 21 or 22, can't remember. It was easier then, there were no serious responsibilities. My main concern was what I was going to do that weekend (which started on thursday) and who I might get lucky with. I had lots of time to play and was very advanced in the game. Specially since I could come home at 4 in the morning on an unlucky night and go straight to the computer and wait for server up. Sometimes I would play till 2 or 3pm, catch a 3 hours of sleep and off to partying again. Times when my body could run on 3 to 4 hours of sleep a day for sometimes 2 weeks straight before crashing into a one weekend hibernation.
Now? It is definitely not the same. I work a minimum of 47 hours a week, I have a mortgage, a wife, a daughter, all things that demand most of my time. When I come home like now, I have time for a quick checkup on my personal email then its "look at what I did today daddy" and "..so i told my mother that she can come over but that.....and my sister said.....and remember that girl from school?...". A quick shower, possibly a tv show with my daughter before dinner. Finally there's the catch-up game with my wife who keeps me informed on the world outside work which finally leaves me with maybe two hours on weekdays. Weekends is better with perhaps 8 hours over the course of two days if I am lucky.
Meanwhile, there are kids now as young as 10 years old playing this game and that is all they do. They play this game day and night, these kids own the dungeons, they farm gold by the millions in a day while i have to wait as long as two weeks before I see 1mil gold. Then you have updates coming out every 3 months it seems now. New dungeons, new items, new player classes. For an old geezer of 31 like me, it is impossible to keep up. When I go to the dungeons to get these 'new' items I cant get them because my gear is not up to par with these kid's gear.
Finally what do you have to do? Buy gold. Its the only way to stay in the game. It is not cheating. For someone who can play more than 40 hours a week its not a necessity, but for the average hardworking individual that does not have mom or dad pay for their accounts, buying gold is a must. Who's fault is it? The developers.
You have to realize that the only people making money are the developers. They don't want you to have a real life. The more time you spend in the game, the less time you have to go to other games. Likewise, the more money you put into the game the more it becomes an investment that you do not want to relinquish.
How do they make money? Let me break it down the way I see it.
So why are they so angry when players buy gold in order to CONTINUE playing their game? Instead of getting angry and declaring it cheating, why not fix the problem? How? Well there are several ways. How about making it so High End items can only be earned and untradeable? Make it so your chances of getting an item are based solely on your char and its level and its performance as opposed to codes like random generators bases on player damage? There are many more ideas and solutions.
Why not spend the next quarter on fixing this problem instead of creating the new expansion? Oh thats right, I forgot...this is a capitalist economy. That is why we buy gold. There is a need, a demand for it. There is a clientele. As long as this clientele exists, Virtual Gold will be a flourishing industry and nothing can stop it. Not complaints, not threats by the game companies not even Ebay's policy enforcement. Players always have and will always continue to find a way.
My two cents.
talargainn@earthlink.net
I'm with you!
They must find it difficult . . .
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
Rather then truth as the authority.
[url=http://www.planetside-universe.com/character-5428197983261370913.php][img]http://sig.planetside-universe.com/5428197983261370913.png[/img][/url]
Ok, you either work for a gaming company or you are incredibly
Illegally obtained property by the use of scripts and abusing bugs in the game IS cheating and SHOULD be addressed harshly. I'll let Interpol deal with the people in game sweatshops in china. As for me, I make a very good living here in the use eating MCDonald's and going to the theater to see happy feet and driving my BMW. I worked hard for it. Just like someone worked hard for that gold. If they don't want people buying it, they should make items untradeable or sell gold themselves that way they can control gold prices.
Ok, you either work for a gaming company or you are incredibly
Illegally obtained property by the use of scripts and abusing bugs in the game IS cheating and SHOULD be addressed harshly. I'll let Interpol deal with the people in game sweatshops in china. As for me, I make a very good living here in the use eating MCDonald's and going to the theater to see happy feet and driving my BMW. I worked hard for it. Just like someone worked hard for that gold. If they don't want people buying it, they should make items untradeable or sell gold themselves that way they can control gold prices.
I think some one needs a raise and a hug!
They must find it difficult . . .
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
Rather then truth as the authority.
[url=http://www.planetside-universe.com/character-5428197983261370913.php][img]http://sig.planetside-universe.com/5428197983261370913.png[/img][/url]
I hate to break it to you, but comparing apples (your wages from a job in real life) to oranges (your virtual currency from an online game) doesn't even begin to validate your point. Things that happen in game are the sole right of the company that produces the game. They let you know what your purchase is buying you, AND what your continued patronage affords you, plain and simple. You are not afforded any special rights in game that you think you deserve based on some misguided attempt to translate real life activities into in game equivalents, even though that probably doesn't make much sense to you since they SEEM so similar. The difference, of course, is you are in a virtual world that is not your property, that the actions you take within that world and the things you acquire are yours only at the discretion of the game makers. If they change the license agreement, which they can do at any time, and give themselves the right to randomly strip one character a day bare, remove all of their items and money, adding it as a feature called "Victim of Master Thief," they can do it. It probably wouldn't entice players to stick around if there wasn't some rewarding counterbalance, but you get my point. Just because it seems "fair" to you to be able to do these things doesn't give you the RIGHT to do them.
As to why it is punished by gaming companies, well, that's already been discussed. As unfortunate as it might be for the working class of the world that they don't have all of the best stuff because their real life is too demanding, it remains lamentable, but still inappropriate, to violate the wishes of the people who are running the servers you play on, and who set the rules for those servers, no matter how much you pay a month and how much you think that entitles you to behave how you like. Companies set rules against gold selling NOT to deprive the working people of the world the best items in the game when they feel they deserve them, but to ensure that ALL people in the game have a working in game economy to buy and sell from, and that the items that you want to buy are reasonably priced so that buying extra gold or items is unnecessary, even for those who can't play all the time. Were you able to look a bit past your own needs for instant gratification and justifying your behavior, you might see how this policy is meant to protect EVERY player, not just people who fall into your particular circumstance.
What a totally stupid idea - not suprised its SOE involved. Yes of course the better off are going to take advantage of it, but those of us who remember that sheesh, its meant to be fun and a game, not a job opportunity. To most of us, it means that critters that drop a much wanted item, would just not get past the farmers to get it, or find our favourite spots camped silly by the gold farmers trying to make a living - im sure they wont mind if you turn up and try to get the item. This means that everywhere with items of any worth would have to be instanced - how boring would that be. How many other companies will follow suite after seeing how much SOE (bleh hate even typing that name) have made from just 2 servers? Cant wait to see what happens to the millions who play wow if they turned round announcing that they will be offering the same kind of thing on their servers. When new games are released, i hope they offer these "trader" servers as well as normal ones - normal ones fer us normal game players, and trade ones to get rid of the dam farmers and those who just want to buy their way to an endgame where they......um.....buy more?
I try remember its just a game when i play
My position on secondary market, Short and Sweet.
It's up to the developers, if the game has outside financial influence built into it's design, then secondary markets are fine.
If not, then it is not "ok" to buy gold or items with real money.
The policy should be enforced strictly by the developer/service provider, by account suspension, bans, and or legal action.
One last item: I also believe that a developer holds no monopoly over secondary market should they choose to allow it. Meaning if a player is allowed to buy gold, they have every right to buy from the lowest bidder.
I won't bother with details and arguments. Games have rules, so if you don't like the rules, then don't play the game.
It's really very simple.
No more Trivial MMO's, let's get serious "again". Make a world, not a game
What I listen to
Fortunately, the arguments against the secondary market are easily destroyed by one simple fact. Since everything is so terribly inflated (despite the fact that inflation is a natural part of MMO economies), you can sell anything you find for the inflated prices, thus making you just as well off as you would be if inflation did not exists. If all the low-level items are inflated, all the newcomers can sell the low level items they find for inflated prices, thus making them just as well off as if inflation didn't exist.
I really love it when a vocal minority tries to force their morals and will on everyone else. We are definately an enlightened species. /sarcasm off
It doesn't work like that in a virtual world. Because its just that, a world. There is no script, there is a story or theme but its not something you follow. Its open ended....that means it goes on and on till you get tired of it. In their goal to make the game like a real world the developers suceeded.
But it has gone beyond what they expected. These games have gained a life of their own. Do you think it would be possible for SOE to end EQ? Is it possible now? What would be the repercusions? Do you know how many people are addicted to EQ? They have support groups just for EQ addiction.
When corporations first came into being, who would have thought that they would become living entities? Nobody. They would have called you crazy among other things. But thats what corporations are...living entities by law. So have these games become, an entire new world to which 'normal' laws need not apply.
True, these companies developed these games....they run them. But the games have evolved to be more. You watch. This virtual property issue is just the beginning. These virtual properties have a real monetary value.
Exactly!! Its like saying that Wonder Bread now costs $15 a loaf. But they are not telling you that everyone now makes $800,000 a year.
Well said.
This arguement has two sides. The two sides should agree to disagree.
When making a game, choose wich way you want players to play the game. With a seconday virtual item market, or without. There is no middle ground.
There are too many middle ground games lately. I dont want a game that caters to everyone. I want a game that caters to the competative gamer. That is why I play games!