I know I'll be in the minority here that feels the way I do... But what I'm really disheartened with is everytime I see a really cool looking new game that's being developed and I start reading about it, I find that pvp is usually always a major, major part of it. One really amazing looking mmo I was reading into said "If you love pvp, this is the game for you!!" Talk about a total, complete freaking let down.
There are some of the most awesome looking games out that I would love so much to try out, but when I see that the structure of the game is so heavily formed and centered around pvp, I just chalk it up as yet another awesomely amazing, mind blowing mmo... that I'll never play.
I know I'll be in the minority here that feels the way I do... But what I'm really disheartened with is everytime I see a really cool looking new game that's being developed and I start reading about it, I find that pvp is usually always a major, major part of it. One really amazing looking mmo I was reading into said "If you love pvp, this is the game for you!!" Talk about a total, complete freaking let down. There are some of the most awesome looking games out that I would love so much to try out, but when I see that the structure of the game is so heavily formed and centered around pvp, I just chalk it up as yet another awesomely amazing, mind blowing mmo... that I'll never play.
"..pvp is usually always a major, major part of it"
You must be living in some alternate universe, because all i see are mmorpgs that are mostly made for pve.
Take the best things from these games and you will have me hooked.
Ultima Online:The community,recall stones,Treasurehunting,Fishing,Thieves,PvP deaths where you can loot other and use the skillbased system so noone had levels at all.
Everquest I: The fear of death because you have XP loss and corpse runs,Epic gear,AA system
Asherons Call I : The way you discovered/researched new spells but this time with a factor so you couldn't spreadsheet it.
Dark age of camelot:The relic raids on castles,the battlegrounds and their craftingsystem that allows to alter a lot of crafted items.
Anarchy online: The craftingsystem that is pretty complex and the implants system that allows you to really play around with various stats on your charcters.
Star wars galaxies : The playerhousing/merchants and the way players could get resources from the lands with various machines.
WoW : Some of the userinterface and nothing else than the player created mapmod that allowed you to write notes on the maps and send to other players.
Everquest II: The graphics,the voice overs and some of their userinterface and a part of their craftingsystem.
Dark and Light : believe it or not but that worldsize could be extremely fun in a game that had all the above programmed into it.
I know I'll be in the minority here that feels the way I do... But what I'm really disheartened with is everytime I see a really cool looking new game that's being developed and I start reading about it, I find that pvp is usually always a major, major part of it. One really amazing looking mmo I was reading into said "If you love pvp, this is the game for you!!" Talk about a total, complete freaking let down. There are some of the most awesome looking games out that I would love so much to try out, but when I see that the structure of the game is so heavily formed and centered around pvp, I just chalk it up as yet another awesomely amazing, mind blowing mmo... that I'll never play.
Very interesting. If I would have read this post 7 months earlier in the summer, I would have toppled over. I remember back in the summer this board had alot of PvP vs. carebear debates, and alot of people arguing about it. I hate to use the word because it offends many, but the Carebears were the ones in greater numbers and the louder voices that simply muffeled the traditional hardcore PvPrs. I remember a particularly nasty thread in which a Hardcore PvP'r expressed his views on PvP and how newer games were not fun (supported skill based vs classes), and he got double and even triple teamed in the thread. I was even scared to go into the thread so I stayed out of it.
Ironically, it was the lone hardcore PvP supporter that had the right logic and facts; the carebears teaming him did not make as much sense. They responded extremly aggressivly. Now looking back on that right now, I see that some of the sides have shifted and people see the logic in the whole situation. If you PvP without any consequences for the opponent - then there is no thrill and therefore not as fun. The most you can do in WoW is corpse camp, which is stupid and pathetic. I know some people are very opposed to item dropping, but think of it - if the game is not based around item acquisition, like for example AC, then you would not cry if you lost a sword in your inventory.
I'm surprised for you, sadly most games are made for PvE and mind numbing grinds. There are no current games that have real good PvP out atm.
Originally posted by Ghost12 I'm surprised for you, sadly most games are made for PvE and mind numbing grinds. There are no current games that have real good PvP out atm.
Another poster said something similar to that, it really puzzles me why anyone thinks most mmo's tailor specifically to a pve structure. I definitely just don't get that... Where are all these pve games? Please name them and point them out to me so I can check them out because I'm just not seeing them.
And btw, a pve structure in my view, means I can progress through the entire game and experience all it has to offer, without ever once having to endure a forced-pk environment. If there are special areas for pk which I can avoid completely that aren't necessary for normal progression through the game, that's one thing... But if I have no choice or option to avoid areas where I can be attacked with or without my consent, that is a game that's tailored toward pvp. I don't want that.
Originally posted by Ghost12 I'm surprised for you, sadly most games are made for PvE and mind numbing grinds. There are no current games that have real good PvP out atm.
Another poster said something similar to that, it really puzzles me why anyone thinks most mmo's tailor specifically to a pve structure. I definitely just don't get that... Where are all these pve games? Please name them and point them out to me so I can check them out because I'm just not seeing them.
And btw, a pve structure in my view, means I can progress through the entire game and experience all it has to offer, without ever once having to endure a forced-pk environment. If there are special areas for pk which I can avoid completely that aren't necessary for normal progression through the game, that's one thing... But if I have no choice or option to avoid areas where I can be attacked with or without my consent, that is a game that's tailored toward pvp. I don't want that.
Each one of these games is focused or uses PvE as the majority of the content. Nearly the entire genre has been PvE thus far.
Thrones of Chaos does not feature levels or classes. Instead it takes advantage of a more open skill system. We believe a MMORPG world should offer as much freedom to the players as possible.
What type of gameplay will Thrones of Chaos have?
Thrones of Chaos is heavily focused on Guilds and player vs. player interaction. Guild structure is a major area for Thrones of Chaos. Players typically do not like to see a game without a great guild structure especially if it is guild vs. guild based. One of the teams top coders has been assigned this task to ensure a robust guild system is in place.
What are the restrictions being placed on PvP play?
There are currently no restrictions as to how PvP can be played out in the game world. Battles can take place anywhere at any time and between any of the four player races for any reason.
Will items drop on death & what are the looting rules?
A randomly selected set of your items will drop and be lootable by your opponents or anyone in the vicinity should you die in battle.
How will travel be handled?
Players can take advantage of the dynamic mount system which allows them to ride on horse back and even fly through the skies on the backs of dragons that are fully maneuvrable in flight! Various mounts are available from Elephants to Dragons to Gryphons , Horses and more!
How will players identify each other?
Players will not have any type of "profiles" or identification associated with the skills they posses. You will know a player by his or her name or by what others have told you about them. Choose your opponents wisely because only after the battle begins will you truly know your opponents strengths and weakness
Each one of these games is focused or uses PvE as the majority of the content. Nearly the entire genre has been PvE thus far.
* Anarchy Online
* ArchLord
* Asheron's Call
* Auto Assault
* City of Heroes
* City of Villains
* D&D Online
* Dark Age of Camelot
* Dark and Light
* Everquest
* Everquest II
* Face of Mankind
* Final Fantasy XI
* Guild Wars
* Horizons
* Knight Online
* Lineage II
* MapleStory
* The Matrix Online
* Phantasy Star Universe
* RF Online
* RYL: Unforgiven Wars
* Ragnarok Online
* The Saga of Ryzom
* Silkroad Online
* Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
* World of Warcraft
You are what I call a blind carebear.
You're calling me a blind carebear... why?
Go and read the descriptions for many of those games you've listed and tell me you don't see how pvp and pk are the central focus of how they are marketed.
Take "Knight Online" for instance since you listed it. The first sentence on the features page reads: Come and indulge yourself with the medieval fantasy setting massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) with the world's most exciting, heart-pumping PvP features.. Sure sounds like a great pve game?
That's only one example, I could find many similar instances but don't feel like investing the time.
It's hard to really know what games do or don't have forced pk when virtually all of them are marketed to appeal to pkers.
Each one of these games is focused or uses PvE as the majority of the content. Nearly the entire genre has been PvE thus far.
* Anarchy Online
* ArchLord
* Asheron's Call
* Auto Assault
* City of Heroes
* City of Villains
* D&D Online
* Dark Age of Camelot
* Dark and Light
* Everquest
* Everquest II
* Face of Mankind
* Final Fantasy XI
* Guild Wars
* Horizons
* Knight Online
* Lineage II
* MapleStory
* The Matrix Online
* Phantasy Star Universe
* RF Online
* RYL: Unforgiven Wars
* Ragnarok Online
* The Saga of Ryzom
* Silkroad Online
* Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
* World of Warcraft
You are what I call a blind carebear.
You're calling me a blind carebear... why?
Go and read the descriptions for many of those games you've listed and tell me you don't see how pvp and pk are the central focus of how they are marketed.
Take "Knight Online" for instance since you listed it. The first sentence on the features page reads: Come and indulge yourself with the medieval fantasy setting massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) with the world's most exciting, heart-pumping PvP features.. Sure sounds like a great pve game?
That's only one example, I could find many similar instances but don't feel like investing the time.
It's hard to really know what games do or don't have forced pk when virtually all of them are marketed to appeal to pkers.
I honestly think you are just trying to get a rise out of people, if not you must be new to the genre, welcome!
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
I honestly think you are just trying to get a rise out of people, if not you must be new to the genre, welcome!
Someone called me a blind carebear, it didn't really sound like a compliment... Did I not have the right to respond in the most sensible way I could? Please don't try to start confrontations with me, I'm sure there are plenty of flamers around that will fight with you if that's what you're after.
I honestly think you are just trying to get a rise out of people, if not you must be new to the genre, welcome!
Someone called me a blind carebear, it didn't really sound like a compliment... Did I not have the right to respond in the most sensible way I could? Please don't try to start confrontations with me, I'm sure there are plenty of flamers around that will fight with you if that's what you're after.
I'm having trouble thinking of one main stream MMO with forced PVP. Sure, some may have dedicated PVP servers with this ruleset, but you simply wouldn't select them.
Stephen, as much as it pains me to say it *winces* mostly all of the MMO games out on the market are based around PvE. You picked Knight online which is one of the very few that touts its PvP structure. You want a game based purely on PvE? Okay, try these:
- Everquest 1 and 2
- DAOC
- World of Warcraft (Have you been living in a HOLE???)
- Lineage II
- Vanguard
- FFXI
and the list goes on and on. Now, go out and try all of these games before you return back to this thread to complain
Well at least you guys gave me some feedback in between calling me a blind carebear, saying I've been living in a hole, telling me I'm trying to get a rise out of people and just generally being rude pricks because I don't know as much about mmo's as you all do. Thanks for the feedback I guess .
Well at least you guys gave me some feedback in between calling me a blind carebear, saying I've been living in a hole, telling me I'm trying to get a rise out of people and just generally being rude pricks because I don't know as much about mmo's as you all do. Thanks for the feedback I guess .
Common people there is no need to be rude to each other. Remember we are on the same side. You are all right if thats what you want to hear, but most of all lets just hear each other. Not just words but ideas and if somewhere we are wrong lets have enough courage to admit that and if we are right lets not call names.
Now on topic:
PvP gameplay is when PvP status present at all times and doesnt change according to the zone, which means that you got to watch your back 24/7. Games where you can go to the none PvP areas and hunt PvE without any worries cant be called full scale PvP but rather hybrid partially PvP but mainly with PvE content.
This days best solution devs can come up with is dedicated to PvP or PvE servers which is ridicules really. For example you cant call WoW purely PvP or PvE game as it would depend on what server you are playing on.
To me the ONLY way to do it in order to unite people with different requirements is to design gameplay concept with full time PvP as well as make it possible for people not to get involved in PvP activity if they wish not. Here we come to the next point. Current MMOs game mechanics restrictions as the ONLY way to control gameplay. Games of today have a lot of restrictions rather than encouragements. In other words rather than strict players from PvPing in certain areas they should encourage not to make it up to players actual choice.
Anyways I have tons of researches on that subject and I can easily go on and on about it. At the end of the day just wanna say to you people. All your opinions are appreciated and lets be just more patient to each other as we represent ONE community!
Full loot, full PvP, skill (not level and item) based, player created towns, with NPC towns as safe zones... If only DFO would ever come out it just might be my ideal game, too bad I prolly wont live to see the day
And yes, WoW is like a part time job... 8 hour raids... how is it not? But hey, some ppl like their jobs IMO one of the only reason it has such a large amount of subscribers is Blizzard had a HUGE fanbase before the game anyway, so they just all went to the new game of Blizzard... Another would be that quite a few people like hardcore PvE, its not a bad game its just made for a certain type of gamer
Well at least you guys gave me some feedback in between calling me a blind carebear, saying I've been living in a hole, telling me I'm trying to get a rise out of people and just generally being rude pricks because I don't know as much about mmo's as you all do. Thanks for the feedback I guess .
Calm down sweetie, what did you expect after coming here and throwing your opinions as if they mean something when you didn't even bother to do some research before posting something you thought had something to do with curent situation...
Leveling/Class system. In Ultima Online and Pre CU SWG, you had skill points. You could use these skill points in ANY professions you wanted. It made everyone unique and people could really be what they want.
Yet for some reason, MMOs still dont adopt that system. Why? Do they stick to the tried and trued tradition of levels. That makes a grind completely boring. Games where all you do is get levels makes for unsatisfying grind. I loved grinding in Pre CU SWG. It was fun, because i could get combat xp, weapons xp, and med xp (when i healed myself).
Skill points/professions opens up PvP to players at a much lower level. In games with a level system, the only time you really want to start PvPing is at the max level, so you have nothing to lose, and your pretty much finished to enjoy the game, which is always for me, PvP.
What really shocks me is games like Vanguard, and upcoming games like AoC still use the level system. While they boast, "Oh, theres a few thousand feats you can take each level, making each character unique", you know and i know that never happens. If anything, it ends up like WoW where theres a 3 best templates to go.
I pretty much lost faith in AoC when i started thinking about the level system they have.
Leveling/Class system. In Ultima Online and Pre CU SWG, you had skill points. You could use these skill points in ANY professions you wanted. It made everyone unique and people could really be what they want. Yet for some reason, MMOs still dont adopt that system. Why? Do they stick to the tried and trued tradition of levels. That makes a grind completely boring. Games where all you do is get levels makes for unsatisfying grind. I loved grinding in Pre CU SWG. It was fun, because i could get combat xp, weapons xp, and med xp (when i healed myself). Skill points/professions opens up PvP to players at a much lower level. In games with a level system, the only time you really want to start PvPing is at the max level, so you have nothing to lose, and your pretty much finished to enjoy the game, which is always for me, PvP.
What really shocks me is games like Vanguard, and upcoming games like AoC still use the level system. While they boast, "Oh, theres a few thousand feats you can take each level, making each character unique", you know and i know that never happens. If anything, it ends up like WoW where theres a 3 best templates to go. I pretty much lost faith in AoC when i started thinking about the level system they have.
Suppose for a second you are as "Old school" as you appear to be saying. I imagine this isn't your first trip to a forum and that this isn't the first thread on the subject you have been somehow involved with. These issues of skill systems have been talked and debated by game players for over 20 years. I can't see how ANYONE can be surprised about it. You might be really meaning to say disappointed, but suprised is hardly believable.
If you are really interested, you can do a little research on the subject using your preferred search engine. Personally don't want to rehash the subject, as I suspect you have heard it all before and are mearly posturing.
EDIT: Taking a look at the top 12 threads on the General Discussion on this site, out of the 12 of them, we see:
stop wasting time doing statistics in this or any other site. First, huge majority of players never visit forums of anykind, not even their games forum. Second, this community consists mmorpg vetereans, people that have played for years and get bored to same old itemgrind.
But i do think its just plain stupid to copy WOW (EQ) to new games. WOW offers decent graphics, high quality pve, a working combat system, lots of content and all this with very low system req's. Now, if you copy the same pattern to new games with very high graphics and very high system req's... Blizzard will laugh all the way to the bank. They do their thing waaaay better than anyone imo.
I think that only type of game that could topple WOW would have to be build around pvp. AoC has a chance to do it, if they dont screw it up and manage to make their game for xbox360. Theres 10-11 million xbox360 owners...
Im not going to "stop wasting time" doing stats. They mean something. Sure, this forum does have alot of vets, but it also has newcomers as well. Do not brush them aside blatently. Yes, the majority do not visit the sites, but the stats are still significant. Every little bit counts.If you people would like to see some stats check this out:
This guy spent over 5 years on the subject and interviewed somewhat 30,000 players of different MMORPGs
Man that site rocks! Reading some of the info on 'Dragon Slaying 101' I was having fun trying to figure out what game the people were talking about before I read the accronym by their info. lol
I especially liked the SB raid snippet. It made me remonice (sp) about my bane days in SB. What I would do was, basically, get into the enemy's ball, and kill off their healers. OMG that was fun! I broke up so many balls. lol Every time I'd kill another healer, a few people in vent would yell out 'Orange Crush!' lol It was my tag name because I was an elven warrior bladeweaver, which meant my plate was orange.
Ahh the memories! lol
Ok ok back to the regularly scheduled program!
nethervoid - Est. '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1 20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
While, for the sake of diversity and different opinions, i cant say much about the Ideal MMO's actual design or gameplay, i can say that the Ideal MMO would have a playerbase pretty close to the one depicted in .hack's The World.
Of course they have nasty PKs there, but at the same time quite honorable PKK's, and lots of other factions that make it not only realistic and give everyone something to do they like, it also ties the world together a lot (as the general attitude of the people is rather friendly too).
MMO's can rise and fall with communities as we all know, and while .hack is far from being a depiction of a realistic MMO (though i admit The World is really cool) the kind of "community" they show in there (not only the protagonists, minor characters too) is pretty much something i'd need in a MMO to call it Ideal.
The reason a lot of mmo's use class and level is to make it possible to balance character and monster power, so every fight isn't 'you win, hands down' or 'the mob one shots you'. If you look at UO, arguably the best skill based mmo ever, mobs in the end-game dungeons can and will one shot you.
That is why it's almost impossible to have fun, skill based characters and an awesome pve experience too. Skill based systems have way too many options to try and balance the whole damn thing around the same set of monsters.
Unless you're ok with having one character pwn all at pve (UO: tamers) while another dreadfully sucks at it (UO: swordsmen). That doesn't sound like a lot of pve fun to me, personally.
To have both great pve and great pvp in a game, you have to kind of mix-match skill and class systems. You're not going to have a totally free system, but at the same time it's also not completely railroaded. That's just the best you'll get. It is what it is.
And I'm not sure you realize, but a skill point system is still a level system. Just replace 'skill point' with 'level', and now you have a level based system.
In UO I had a 5x GM assassin. I had 700 skill points. 100 points in Poisoning, etc.
Now just replace skill with level...
In UO I had 700 levels. 100 levels of that was in Poisoning...
See what I'm saying here? The only difference is when you gained a 'level' was semi random. In a level based system you pretty much know exactly when that 'gain' is coming.
Another thing: SWG tree system is a class system. Same as in D2. You pick a tree and climb it. Guess what, that 'tree' is a 'class', just like a talent tree in WoW.
And before you say 'yeah uh duh but you could uh pick skills uh... from different trees, there bucko'. No crap. Most people didn't. They mastered a tree and stuck the rest somewhere else. Sounds like wow talent trees.
Yet another problem that can arise in skill based systems is how everyone and their brother can end up with a few skills because they are the best or have the most utility. It really sucked how in UO everyone had magery. A huge amount of people had healing. Another big chunk had some kind of melee. So everyone pretty much had magery, healing, and melee. Everyone ends up being so similar, it's hard to see any difference. In UO, it's arguable you could say there were really only two different things you could be for combat: melee 'class' or mage 'class' or a hybrid of those two. That's really pretty bland for such an open ended system. Sounds a lot like a class system, except actually less diverse.
Anyway, I like skill based systems, but I'm really tired of people acting like they're so different than class/level systems. They really aren't.
*edit* I really went round in a circle there lol - What I mean is the skill system is harder to balance, so the devs railroad you more into a class level system, but technically they're similar.
nethervoid - Est. '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1 20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
The reason a lot of mmo's use class and level is to make it possible to balance character and monster power, so every fight isn't 'you win, hands down' or 'the mob one shots you'. If you look at UO, arguably the best skill based mmo ever, mobs in the end-game dungeons can and will one shot you. That is why it's almost impossible to have fun, skill based characters and an awesome pve experience too. Skill based systems have way too many options to try and balance the whole damn thing around the same set of monsters. Unless you're ok with having one character pwn all at pve (UO: tamers) while another dreadfully sucks at it (UO: swordsmen). That doesn't sound like a lot of pve fun to me, personally. To have both great pve and great pvp in a game, you have to kind of mix-match skill and class systems. You're not going to have a totally free system, but at the same time it's also not completely railroaded. That's just the best you'll get. It is what it is. And I'm not sure you realize, but a skill point system is still a level system. Just replace 'skill point' with 'level', and now you have a level based system. In UO I had a 5x GM assassin. I had 700 skill points. 100 points in Poisoning, etc. Now just replace skill with level... In UO I had 700 levels. 100 levels of that was in Poisoning... See what I'm saying here? The only difference is when you gained a 'level' was semi random. In a level based system you pretty much know exactly when that 'gain' is coming. Another thing: SWG tree system is a class system. Same as in D2. You pick a tree and climb it. Guess what, that 'tree' is a 'class', just like a talent tree in WoW. And before you say 'yeah uh duh but you could uh pick skills uh... from different trees, there bucko'. No crap. Most people didn't. They mastered a tree and stuck the rest somewhere else. Sounds like wow talent trees. Yet another problem that can arise in skill based systems is how everyone and their brother can end up with a few skills because they are the best or have the most utility. It really sucked how in UO everyone had magery. A huge amount of people had healing. Another big chunk had some kind of melee. So everyone pretty much had magery, healing, and melee. Everyone ends up being so similar, it's hard to see any difference. In UO, it's arguable you could say there were really only two different things you could be for combat: melee 'class' or mage 'class' or a hybrid of those two. That's really pretty bland for such an open ended system. Sounds a lot like a class system, except actually less diverse. Anyway, I like skill based systems, but I'm really tired of people acting like they're so different than class/level systems. They really aren't. *edit* I really went round in a circle there lol - What I mean is the skill system is harder to balance, so the devs railroad you more into a class level system, but technically they're similar.
I'm afraid that you are right and wrong at the same time my friend. Yes it is easier for devs to balance classes. Yes skills are in a way similar to classes WHEN you look at them at the end of character development. And yes skill level system is almost the same as character levels. However skills give players ability of CHOICE. At the end-game they will be balanced anyway but not by devs but players them selves. That gives sense of customization which players are long time after.
Well at least you guys gave me some feedback in between calling me a blind carebear, saying I've been living in a hole, telling me I'm trying to get a rise out of people and just generally being rude pricks because I don't know as much about mmo's as you all do. Thanks for the feedback I guess .
Calm down sweetie, what did you expect after coming here and throwing your opinions as if they mean something when you didn't even bother to do some research before posting something you thought had something to do with curent situation...
GAMES ARE NOT:
-food
-music
-movies
Haha it never ceases to amuse the Hell out of me how a forum troll like Sonofseth can pop in a thread with their patronizing two cents worth and then leave a little smiley face at the end of their comment as if they're all cool and cutesy or something. Losers lol.
Comments
I know I'll be in the minority here that feels the way I do... But what I'm really disheartened with is everytime I see a really cool looking new game that's being developed and I start reading about it, I find that pvp is usually always a major, major part of it. One really amazing looking mmo I was reading into said "If you love pvp, this is the game for you!!" Talk about a total, complete freaking let down.
There are some of the most awesome looking games out that I would love so much to try out, but when I see that the structure of the game is so heavily formed and centered around pvp, I just chalk it up as yet another awesomely amazing, mind blowing mmo... that I'll never play.
You must be living in some alternate universe, because all i see are mmorpgs that are mostly made for pve.
Ultima Online:The community,recall stones,Treasurehunting,Fishing,Thieves,PvP deaths where you can loot other and use the skillbased system so noone had levels at all.
Everquest I: The fear of death because you have XP loss and corpse runs,Epic gear,AA system
Asherons Call I : The way you discovered/researched new spells but this time with a factor so you couldn't spreadsheet it.
Dark age of camelot:The relic raids on castles,the battlegrounds and their craftingsystem that allows to alter a lot of crafted items.
Anarchy online: The craftingsystem that is pretty complex and the implants system that allows you to really play around with various stats on your charcters.
Star wars galaxies : The playerhousing/merchants and the way players could get resources from the lands with various machines.
WoW : Some of the userinterface and nothing else than the player created mapmod that allowed you to write notes on the maps and send to other players.
Everquest II: The graphics,the voice overs and some of their userinterface and a part of their craftingsystem.
Dark and Light : believe it or not but that worldsize could be extremely fun in a game that had all the above programmed into it.
There you have it.
That would be a game for me.
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Very interesting. If I would have read this post 7 months earlier in the summer, I would have toppled over. I remember back in the summer this board had alot of PvP vs. carebear debates, and alot of people arguing about it. I hate to use the word because it offends many, but the Carebears were the ones in greater numbers and the louder voices that simply muffeled the traditional hardcore PvPrs. I remember a particularly nasty thread in which a Hardcore PvP'r expressed his views on PvP and how newer games were not fun (supported skill based vs classes), and he got double and even triple teamed in the thread. I was even scared to go into the thread so I stayed out of it.
Ironically, it was the lone hardcore PvP supporter that had the right logic and facts; the carebears teaming him did not make as much sense. They responded extremly aggressivly. Now looking back on that right now, I see that some of the sides have shifted and people see the logic in the whole situation. If you PvP without any consequences for the opponent - then there is no thrill and therefore not as fun. The most you can do in WoW is corpse camp, which is stupid and pathetic. I know some people are very opposed to item dropping, but think of it - if the game is not based around item acquisition, like for example AC, then you would not cry if you lost a sword in your inventory.
I'm surprised for you, sadly most games are made for PvE and mind numbing grinds. There are no current games that have real good PvP out atm.
Another poster said something similar to that, it really puzzles me why anyone thinks most mmo's tailor specifically to a pve structure. I definitely just don't get that... Where are all these pve games? Please name them and point them out to me so I can check them out because I'm just not seeing them.
And btw, a pve structure in my view, means I can progress through the entire game and experience all it has to offer, without ever once having to endure a forced-pk environment. If there are special areas for pk which I can avoid completely that aren't necessary for normal progression through the game, that's one thing... But if I have no choice or option to avoid areas where I can be attacked with or without my consent, that is a game that's tailored toward pvp. I don't want that.
Another poster said something similar to that, it really puzzles me why anyone thinks most mmo's tailor specifically to a pve structure. I definitely just don't get that... Where are all these pve games? Please name them and point them out to me so I can check them out because I'm just not seeing them.
And btw, a pve structure in my view, means I can progress through the entire game and experience all it has to offer, without ever once having to endure a forced-pk environment. If there are special areas for pk which I can avoid completely that aren't necessary for normal progression through the game, that's one thing... But if I have no choice or option to avoid areas where I can be attacked with or without my consent, that is a game that's tailored toward pvp. I don't want that.
Each one of these games is focused or uses PvE as the majority of the content. Nearly the entire genre has been PvE thus far.* Anarchy Online
* ArchLord
* Asheron's Call
* Auto Assault
* City of Heroes
* City of Villains
* D&D Online
* Dark Age of Camelot
* Dark and Light
* Everquest
* Everquest II
* Face of Mankind
* Final Fantasy XI
* Guild Wars
* Horizons
* Knight Online
* Lineage II
* MapleStory
* The Matrix Online
* Phantasy Star Universe
* RF Online
* RYL: Unforgiven Wars
* Ragnarok Online
* The Saga of Ryzom
* Silkroad Online
* Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
* World of Warcraft
You are what I call a blind carebear.
You're calling me a blind carebear... why?
Go and read the descriptions for many of those games you've listed and tell me you don't see how pvp and pk are the central focus of how they are marketed.
Take "Knight Online" for instance since you listed it. The first sentence on the features page reads: Come and indulge yourself with the medieval fantasy setting massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) with the world's most exciting, heart-pumping PvP features.. Sure sounds like a great pve game?
That's only one example, I could find many similar instances but don't feel like investing the time.
It's hard to really know what games do or don't have forced pk when virtually all of them are marketed to appeal to pkers.
Even Dark Age of Camelot has a ton of PvE. If you really didn't want to PvP you don't have to, you can go grind your heart out with Atlantis.
You're calling me a blind carebear... why?
Go and read the descriptions for many of those games you've listed and tell me you don't see how pvp and pk are the central focus of how they are marketed.
Take "Knight Online" for instance since you listed it. The first sentence on the features page reads: Come and indulge yourself with the medieval fantasy setting massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) with the world's most exciting, heart-pumping PvP features.. Sure sounds like a great pve game?
That's only one example, I could find many similar instances but don't feel like investing the time.
It's hard to really know what games do or don't have forced pk when virtually all of them are marketed to appeal to pkers.
I honestly think you are just trying to get a rise out of people, if not you must be new to the genre, welcome!
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Someone called me a blind carebear, it didn't really sound like a compliment... Did I not have the right to respond in the most sensible way I could? Please don't try to start confrontations with me, I'm sure there are plenty of flamers around that will fight with you if that's what you're after.
Someone called me a blind carebear, it didn't really sound like a compliment... Did I not have the right to respond in the most sensible way I could? Please don't try to start confrontations with me, I'm sure there are plenty of flamers around that will fight with you if that's what you're after.
I'm having trouble thinking of one main stream MMO with forced PVP. Sure, some may have dedicated PVP servers with this ruleset, but you simply wouldn't select them.
Have you tried WOW, EQ, COV, D&D, LOTR?
Stephen, as much as it pains me to say it *winces* mostly all of the MMO games out on the market are based around PvE. You picked Knight online which is one of the very few that touts its PvP structure. You want a game based purely on PvE? Okay, try these:
- Everquest 1 and 2
- DAOC
- World of Warcraft (Have you been living in a HOLE???)
- Lineage II
- Vanguard
- FFXI
and the list goes on and on. Now, go out and try all of these games before you return back to this thread to complain
Now on topic:
PvP gameplay is when PvP status present at all times and doesnt change according to the zone, which means that you got to watch your back 24/7. Games where you can go to the none PvP areas and hunt PvE without any worries cant be called full scale PvP but rather hybrid partially PvP but mainly with PvE content.
This days best solution devs can come up with is dedicated to PvP or PvE servers which is ridicules really. For example you cant call WoW purely PvP or PvE game as it would depend on what server you are playing on.
To me the ONLY way to do it in order to unite people with different requirements is to design gameplay concept with full time PvP as well as make it possible for people not to get involved in PvP activity if they wish not. Here we come to the next point. Current MMOs game mechanics restrictions as the ONLY way to control gameplay. Games of today have a lot of restrictions rather than encouragements. In other words rather than strict players from PvPing in certain areas they should encourage not to make it up to players actual choice.
Anyways I have tons of researches on that subject and I can easily go on and on about it. At the end of the day just wanna say to you people. All your opinions are appreciated and lets be just more patient to each other as we represent ONE community!
Thank you!
Ligner
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Played:
AC, AC2, UO, AO, EQ, EQ2, Shadowbane, DAoC, Horisons, SWG, EVE, L2, GW, WoW, DDO, LotRO
Beta tested:
AC, AC2, EQ2, SWG, Horisons, WoW, Archlord, LotRO, Espado Granada, Vanguard
Currently playing: AoC
Full loot, full PvP, skill (not level and item) based, player created towns, with NPC towns as safe zones... If only DFO would ever come out it just might be my ideal game, too bad I prolly wont live to see the day
And yes, WoW is like a part time job... 8 hour raids... how is it not? But hey, some ppl like their jobs
IMO one of the only reason it has such a large amount of subscribers is Blizzard had a HUGE fanbase before the game anyway, so they just all went to the new game of Blizzard... Another would be that quite a few people like hardcore PvE, its not a bad game its just made for a certain type of gamer
Calm down sweetie, what did you expect after coming here and throwing your opinions as if they mean something when you didn't even bother to do some research before posting something you thought had something to do with curent situation...
GAMES ARE NOT:
-food
-music
-movies
Heres the MAJOR thing i know judge MMOs on:
Leveling/Class system. In Ultima Online and Pre CU SWG, you had skill points. You could use these skill points in ANY professions you wanted. It made everyone unique and people could really be what they want.
Yet for some reason, MMOs still dont adopt that system. Why? Do they stick to the tried and trued tradition of levels. That makes a grind completely boring. Games where all you do is get levels makes for unsatisfying grind. I loved grinding in Pre CU SWG. It was fun, because i could get combat xp, weapons xp, and med xp (when i healed myself).
Skill points/professions opens up PvP to players at a much lower level. In games with a level system, the only time you really want to start PvPing is at the max level, so you have nothing to lose, and your pretty much finished to enjoy the game, which is always for me, PvP.
What really shocks me is games like Vanguard, and upcoming games like AoC still use the level system. While they boast, "Oh, theres a few thousand feats you can take each level, making each character unique", you know and i know that never happens. If anything, it ends up like WoW where theres a 3 best templates to go.
I pretty much lost faith in AoC when i started thinking about the level system they have.
Suppose for a second you are as "Old school" as you appear to be saying. I imagine this isn't your first trip to a forum and that this isn't the first thread on the subject you have been somehow involved with. These issues of skill systems have been talked and debated by game players for over 20 years. I can't see how ANYONE can be surprised about it. You might be really meaning to say disappointed, but suprised is hardly believable.
If you are really interested, you can do a little research on the subject using your preferred search engine. Personally don't want to rehash the subject, as I suspect you have heard it all before and are mearly posturing.
But i do think its just plain stupid to copy WOW (EQ) to new games. WOW offers decent graphics, high quality pve, a working combat system, lots of content and all this with very low system req's. Now, if you copy the same pattern to new games with very high graphics and very high system req's... Blizzard will laugh all the way to the bank. They do their thing waaaay better than anyone imo.
I think that only type of game that could topple WOW would have to be build around pvp. AoC has a chance to do it, if they dont screw it up and manage to make their game for xbox360. Theres 10-11 million xbox360 owners...
Im not going to "stop wasting time" doing stats. They mean something. Sure, this forum does have alot of vets, but it also has newcomers as well. Do not brush them aside blatently. Yes, the majority do not visit the sites, but the stats are still significant. Every little bit counts.If you people would like to see some stats check this out:
www.nickyee.com/daedalus/gateway_intro.html
This guy spent over 5 years on the subject and interviewed somewhat 30,000 players of different MMORPGs
Man that site rocks! Reading some of the info on 'Dragon Slaying 101' I was having fun trying to figure out what game the people were talking about before I read the accronym by their info. lol
I especially liked the SB raid snippet. It made me remonice (sp) about my bane days in SB. What I would do was, basically, get into the enemy's ball, and kill off their healers. OMG that was fun! I broke up so many balls. lol Every time I'd kill another healer, a few people in vent would yell out 'Orange Crush!' lol It was my tag name because I was an elven warrior bladeweaver, which meant my plate was orange.
Ahh the memories! lol
Ok ok back to the regularly scheduled program!
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
While, for the sake of diversity and different opinions, i cant say much about the Ideal MMO's actual design or gameplay, i can say that the Ideal MMO would have a playerbase pretty close to the one depicted in .hack's The World.
Of course they have nasty PKs there, but at the same time quite honorable PKK's, and lots of other factions that make it not only realistic and give everyone something to do they like, it also ties the world together a lot (as the general attitude of the people is rather friendly too).
MMO's can rise and fall with communities as we all know, and while .hack is far from being a depiction of a realistic MMO (though i admit The World is really cool) the kind of "community" they show in there (not only the protagonists, minor characters too) is pretty much something i'd need in a MMO to call it Ideal.
The reason a lot of mmo's use class and level is to make it possible to balance character and monster power, so every fight isn't 'you win, hands down' or 'the mob one shots you'. If you look at UO, arguably the best skill based mmo ever, mobs in the end-game dungeons can and will one shot you.
That is why it's almost impossible to have fun, skill based characters and an awesome pve experience too. Skill based systems have way too many options to try and balance the whole damn thing around the same set of monsters.
Unless you're ok with having one character pwn all at pve (UO: tamers) while another dreadfully sucks at it (UO: swordsmen). That doesn't sound like a lot of pve fun to me, personally.
To have both great pve and great pvp in a game, you have to kind of mix-match skill and class systems. You're not going to have a totally free system, but at the same time it's also not completely railroaded. That's just the best you'll get. It is what it is.
And I'm not sure you realize, but a skill point system is still a level system. Just replace 'skill point' with 'level', and now you have a level based system.
In UO I had a 5x GM assassin. I had 700 skill points. 100 points in Poisoning, etc.
Now just replace skill with level...
In UO I had 700 levels. 100 levels of that was in Poisoning...
See what I'm saying here? The only difference is when you gained a 'level' was semi random. In a level based system you pretty much know exactly when that 'gain' is coming.
Another thing: SWG tree system is a class system. Same as in D2. You pick a tree and climb it. Guess what, that 'tree' is a 'class', just like a talent tree in WoW.
And before you say 'yeah uh duh but you could uh pick skills uh... from different trees, there bucko'. No crap. Most people didn't. They mastered a tree and stuck the rest somewhere else. Sounds like wow talent trees.
Yet another problem that can arise in skill based systems is how everyone and their brother can end up with a few skills because they are the best or have the most utility. It really sucked how in UO everyone had magery. A huge amount of people had healing. Another big chunk had some kind of melee. So everyone pretty much had magery, healing, and melee. Everyone ends up being so similar, it's hard to see any difference. In UO, it's arguable you could say there were really only two different things you could be for combat: melee 'class' or mage 'class' or a hybrid of those two. That's really pretty bland for such an open ended system. Sounds a lot like a class system, except actually less diverse.
Anyway, I like skill based systems, but I'm really tired of people acting like they're so different than class/level systems. They really aren't.
*edit* I really went round in a circle there lol - What I mean is the skill system is harder to balance, so the devs railroad you more into a class level system, but technically they're similar.
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
Ligner
_________________________________
Played:
AC, AC2, UO, AO, EQ, EQ2, Shadowbane, DAoC, Horisons, SWG, EVE, L2, GW, WoW, DDO, LotRO
Beta tested:
AC, AC2, EQ2, SWG, Horisons, WoW, Archlord, LotRO, Espado Granada, Vanguard
Currently playing: AoC
Calm down sweetie, what did you expect after coming here and throwing your opinions as if they mean something when you didn't even bother to do some research before posting something you thought had something to do with curent situation...
GAMES ARE NOT:
-food
-music
-movies
Haha it never ceases to amuse the Hell out of me how a forum troll like Sonofseth can pop in a thread with their patronizing two cents worth and then leave a little smiley face at the end of their comment as if they're all cool and cutesy or something. Losers lol.