Cheating? What type of cheating? Apparently I missed something...if you need to cheat on Eve that's kinda sad o.O, that's like cheating on Starcraft . I wish I could still play Eve...especially its expansion.
"Life is not judged by the breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."
The thing is that this is nothing new. If you've played EVE for years and you know some of the folks who have been playing since the beginning, they can tell you all kinds of stuff about the interlinkages between some of the big alliances and CCP, whether devs, ISD, Aurora, etc. It's a fact because these folks have all been playing the game longest, and they are all in the elite caste of the game. It's not obvious at all to the casual player or the newcomer, but if you've been around and managed to befriend some of the true "original" characters in the game, you'd easily come to know that these various interlinkages are pretty common in certain of the alliances. Now that doesn't mean all of them are cheating --- not at all. But certainly the temptation is there because the CCP/ISD folks who are playing EVE are just as wrapped up in their characters and the success of their corps as everyone else who is playing is -- and there's a real temptation there to misuse access to certain things for a competitive advantage in a game like EVE.
I mean, let's face it: EVE is a very, very cut-throat game. People have and will go to extreme lengths to succeed competitively in the game, including infiltrating other corps websites and Ventrilos, playing along as spies for months on end and the like -- the game is cut-throat, and people will lie, cheat and steal to get ahead, quite literally. That's fine, and it's a part of the "fun" of EVE, but when you combine that with someone who has access to special powers, then you have a really, really tempting situation to deal with, and one that frankly is not in the best interests of the game and the community as a whole.
The thing is that this is nothing new. If you've played EVE for years and you know some of the folks who have been playing since the beginning, they can tell you all kinds of stuff about the interlinkages between some of the big alliances and CCP, whether devs, ISD, Aurora, etc. It's a fact because these folks have all been playing the game longest, and they are all in the elite caste of the game. It's not obvious at all to the casual player or the newcomer, but if you've been around and managed to befriend some of the true "original" characters in the game, you'd easily come to know that these various interlinkages are pretty common in certain of the alliances. Now that doesn't mean all of them are cheating --- not at all. But certainly the temptation is there because the CCP/ISD folks who are playing EVE are just as wrapped up in their characters and the success of their corps as everyone else who is playing is -- and there's a real temptation there to misuse access to certain things for a competitive advantage in a game like EVE.
I mean, let's face it: EVE is a very, very cut-throat game. People have and will go to extreme lengths to succeed competitively in the game, including infiltrating other corps websites and Ventrilos, playing along as spies for months on end and the like -- the game is cut-throat, and people will lie, cheat and steal to get ahead, quite literally. That's fine, and it's a part of the "fun" of EVE, but when you combine that with someone who has access to special powers, then you have a really, really tempting situation to deal with, and one that frankly is not in the best interests of the game and the community as a whole.
Yeah - this is absolutely true. And it is what I was discussing in another thread... CCP needs to raise the bar on integrity.
Think about this - I'm the friend of a Dev.. I may even know he is a Dev... we are up late one night camping some gate or locking down some system in 0.0 -- just the two of us, in a TS channel. We get to shooting the crap about the game -- I mention how it doesnt matter if I lose my ship because I have a T1 Cargo Expander BPO... well... Mr. Dev then says something as innocent and off hand as, "From the changes I hear, I would sell that off right away if I was you."
BOOM. No log. Cheating. To anyone that doesn't play the game you have to understand that a single BPO of the right kind can basically let you print money in the game... and that statement above would have saved that player billions upon billions...
It's not about the T20 incident. It is about CCPs handling of this that points to a corporate culture that I distrust.
CCP needs to enforce an absolute zero tolerance for actions like this.. and actions more direct then this. They need to enforce it with the same meticulousness that a japanese tea ceremony master makes tea... meticulous to the extereme. They need to change their corporate culture to match this.
At that's why until T20 is let go and these changes are made there is no point in playing this game -- unless your a Dev. Then you have a nice little playground which you can pretend to be god in.
Yeah, it looks neat, but why play in someone elses god complex?
This is an interesting phrasing. I do believe I'm going to ask this of every Christian, Muslim, and Jew I come across henceforth.
Just want to distance myself from this statement above - I respect peoples beliefs because I don't have all the answers (if I ever figure out life the universe and everything I promise to post it here for you guys!)
I will admit openly that, pending their existence, any of the following entities are allowed to have a god complex which I will humbly play in:
god
God
a god
any of the gods
the trinity of the single god.
Jessica Alba
You will notice the distinct lack of any "CCP" related entries on that list. So until CCP ends the god complex I will pass, and encourage others to do the same.
One thing you have to consider is that you would have successfully killed off EVE faster than anything that this little incident had caused. Would you want to work in an enviroment where you have 5 guys looking over your shoulder over everything you do. I've been in places like that and you get a massive turnover rate. And that massive turnover rate means we start getting more and more people into dev positions that do not nessicarily care how the game works or is played and we have our own version of the NGE hit EVE.
what you failed to explain to those that don't know is that those particular BPOs were not the liscense to print money bpos. You must also state that there is no guaruntee that anyone would have gotten those BPOs to begin with. Would BoB failed miserably with out those BPOs, not a chance in hell. Would the other side have won assuming they would have gotten all of them. More and likely, no, thesse were not in any way shape or form game breaking BPOs. if you think that they were you need to get some experience in the game. Even the spike L can be stopped with the simple addition of Sensor Damps or ECM. the Sabre while a nice BPO to have would be far from ground breaking. Dictors are far from a rare ship in the game, and in no way shape or form a money maker like the Exhumers or HAC bps.
As for the whole issue withthe T1 cargo expander BPs never understood why you would have sold them in the first place, and you did get it backwards Ashton, the dev would have told him to keep the BPO though it is really not an important correction for the purposes of your arguement.
As for the statement to say that there is no reason to play this game unless your a dev, I happen to find that completely rediculous. I have never lossed a ship that I did not chalk up to bad luck, poor fitting or just plain stupidity on my part. then again I first look to see what I did wrong compared to what my opponent did right before accusing anyone of hacking. this is not a behavor that has been mirrored alway. I have myself been accused of being a dev, which I find funny because ,well I lack pretty much any type of serious game designing skills. What you accomplish in EVE has always been based more around what your attitude in the game is, if you head into the game with the mentality that you can't compete then you will find reasons that you can't compete (with the exception of the T2 lottery where if you expect to get a BPO out of it, well your an optimist, friend is pushing over 3mil RP and still none).
what you failed to explain to those that don't know is that those particular BPOs were not the liscense to print money bpos. You must also state that there is no guaruntee that anyone would have gotten those BPOs to begin with. Would BoB failed miserably with out those BPOs, not a chance in hell. Would the other side have won assuming they would have gotten all of them. More and likely, no, thesse were not in any way shape or form game breaking BPOs. if you think that they were you need to get some experience in the game. Even the spike L can be stopped with the simple addition of Sensor Damps or ECM. the Sabre while a nice BPO to have would be far from ground breaking. Dictors are far from a rare ship in the game, and in no way shape or form a money maker like the Exhumers or HAC bps.
Oh, the sacrifice BPOs that they admitted to? I totally agree that it would be totally retarded to risk your job over such trash. Is it any wonder that most people believe that this is just the tip of the iceburg?
Of course, since those BPOs weren't just "popped", but were generated using some sort of BPO lottery exploit, one may wonder if anyone else knew about this particular exploit.. you know, like certain alliance leaders with a reputation for "winning at any cost" who already knew that these BPOs weren't legit? I DON'T KNOW!!
Of course, there's no chance in heck that a dev who engaged in this kind of BLATENT cheating did anything so "innocent" as tip his corpies off about game mechanics, events, changes, etc... NEVER EVER IMPOSSIBLE TINFOIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!
One thing you have to consider is that you would have successfully killed off EVE faster than anything that this little incident had caused. Would you want to work in an enviroment where you have 5 guys looking over your shoulder over everything you do. I've been in places like that and you get a massive turnover rate. And that massive turnover rate means we start getting more and more people into dev positions that do not nessicarily care how the game works or is played and we have our own version of the NGE hit EVE.
what you failed to explain to those that don't know is that those particular BPOs were not the liscense to print money bpos. You must also state that there is no guaruntee that anyone would have gotten those BPOs to begin with. Would BoB failed miserably with out those BPOs, not a chance in hell. Would the other side have won assuming they would have gotten all of them. More and likely, no, thesse were not in any way shape or form game breaking BPOs. if you think that they were you need to get some experience in the game. Even the spike L can be stopped with the simple addition of Sensor Damps or ECM. the Sabre while a nice BPO to have would be far from ground breaking. Dictors are far from a rare ship in the game, and in no way shape or form a money maker like the Exhumers or HAC bps.
As for the whole issue withthe T1 cargo expander BPs never understood why you would have sold them in the first place, and you did get it backwards Ashton, the dev would have told him to keep the BPO though it is really not an important correction for the purposes of your arguement.
As for the statement to say that there is no reason to play this game unless your a dev, I happen to find that completely rediculous. I have never lossed a ship that I did not chalk up to bad luck, poor fitting or just plain stupidity on my part. then again I first look to see what I did wrong compared to what my opponent did right before accusing anyone of hacking. this is not a behavor that has been mirrored alway. I have myself been accused of being a dev, which I find funny because ,well I lack pretty much any type of serious game designing skills. What you accomplish in EVE has always been based more around what your attitude in the game is, if you head into the game with the mentality that you can't compete then you will find reasons that you can't compete (with the exception of the T2 lottery where if you expect to get a BPO out of it, well your an optimist, friend is pushing over 3mil RP and still none).
Lots of good stuff here - thanks for your reply!
- Job Security. -- although I appreciate that in the balance between customer retention and employee stability you feel that this is a make or break issue and lean one way, I happen to lean the other. If my employees were spawning BPOs I would want them looking over their shoulders. In fact, I would want them in an unemployment line. This isn't about some grey issue that was interpretted the wrong way. Likewise, if an employee stole money from petty cash I would fire them. There are many many situations where I would immediately fire an employee, and this T20 thing is one of them. If the corporate culture at CCP is what it should be, one of integrity and trust that has been ingrained from day 1, then keeping him on is an example of how to ruin that corporate culture. Only thing I can figure is he has some kind of indispensible job function.
- BPO Value.-- Yes, you are right, if my sole purpose in life was to print money I would have spawned differnt BPOs. As I have said all along though, this isn't about the T20 incident - it is about how that incident was handled, and the corporate culture that the way it was handled points to. Who cares what BPOs they were - they could have been civilian gatling laser BPOs... doesn't matter - the handling of it was abhorrent and that indicates a corporate culture of tolerance. (Still, I wouldn't compain if I was handed a sabre BPO).
- T1 Cargo thing - As i said above, this is an example. I wasn't talking specifically about this. I could have used the word "widget" and the issue wouldn't have been there. I am talking about information that is passed from DEV to player - - LIKE BPO value adjustments, LIKE Passive targetters being used through POS shields -- LIKE scanning and timer adjustments that within a 1 week window (and a 1 week window only between patches) allowed for the distruction of a Titan in game... LIKE these things... LIKE nodes dropping when BoD jumps in but they are able to regroup faster... LIKE... information is power in Eve - and information isn't logged.
- Losing ships and reasons to play EvE. -- Iv'e lost ships. I've lost ships cause I was stupid, cause I was out numbered, because I was afk. I've killed them as well. Me killing a ship or having a ship ruined isn't the level of the game that is ruined. What is ruined is the fact that I know that some of the ships I am now fighting against are in "God Mode" -- there is a reason that "God MOde" is disabled in a multiplayer game -- it isn't fun for the opponents... NOW WAIT! Before you nit pick and say, "they arent really in god mode, you can blow them up!" -- let me clraify that by God mode in this case I mean that the have enough information, they have enough money, they have enough ill-gotten power, that inevitably their individual destruction doesn't matter. Sure, I will be able to destroy their single ship - but I can't shape the universe of New Eden. I can't play in the sandbox of EvE online and aspire to be anything more then a peon... because I don't work for CCP.
Cheers mate. For as long as you are flying around New Eden, fly safe. Unless there is a change this Pod Pilot is retiring...
Ashton692 I agree with you. Send my details to CCP too. The facts are there. They agreed that corruption exists in public.
We were/are paying customers and we have rights. And our responsibility is to keep others away from paying a game which company isn't fair.
Stay away from EVE. All logical people should boycot this game TODAY.
What rights?
The right to play the game
The right to play with other people
There is no right to direct the company how to deal with internal problems with their staff
There is no right to demand 'transparency' on how they deal with issues
There is no right to demand they fire an employee or penalize other players who may or may not be innocent of any wrongdoing.
Fact: T20 spawned 10 Tech2 BPO's for his normal character with his dev account - violation
Fact: For quite some time he used those BPO's himself in game with his normal account - violation
Fact: Shortly before being caught he gave those BPO's to his corporation - violation on his part...
Speculation: We have no way of knowing if the Corp actually knew the BPO's were illicitely obtained. If they did it would be a violation but if they didn't they are just an innocent bystander.
Fact: The BPO's have been removed from the game
Fact: T20's accounts (other than his dev account) have been terminated and all the characters wiped.
Fact: A few other Devs' player accounts were exposed
Fact: All of those accounts have been wiped out. Destroying several years worth of play effort for those devs, whether they did anything wrong or not. Most probably had never done anything wrong other than somehow get exposed as a dev while playing on their normal account.
Statement by CCP: They have implemented new tools to prevent things like what T20 did from happening again.
Statement by CCP: They have implemented an entire new division to monitor employee activities vis-a-vis the game.
Statement by CCP: A new manager for that division has been appointed.
Now, we can quibble about how it took them so long and they weren't open about it in the first place yada yada. You can be bent that they took their sweet time to do it but the fact is that they ARE doing things about it. Whether you think they've gone far enough or not has no bearing on the issue. The fact is that they HAVE punished the perpetrator AND have removed the offending materials from the game. They have no way of knowing if the members of T20's corporation knew the BPO's were illegal so doing any type of retroactive punishment to the PLAYERS would be foolish.
But hey, if you want to quit over a screwup of one employee and, admittedly, somewhat poorly handled situation? Go for it.
But can I have your ISK and BPO's before you leave please? I'll even give the BPO's back if you decide to come back later
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
Comments
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Cheating? What type of cheating? Apparently I missed something...if you need to cheat on Eve that's kinda sad o.O, that's like cheating on Starcraft
. I wish I could still play Eve...especially its expansion.
"Life is not judged by the breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."
I mean, let's face it: EVE is a very, very cut-throat game. People have and will go to extreme lengths to succeed competitively in the game, including infiltrating other corps websites and Ventrilos, playing along as spies for months on end and the like -- the game is cut-throat, and people will lie, cheat and steal to get ahead, quite literally. That's fine, and it's a part of the "fun" of EVE, but when you combine that with someone who has access to special powers, then you have a really, really tempting situation to deal with, and one that frankly is not in the best interests of the game and the community as a whole.
Yeah - this is absolutely true. And it is what I was discussing in another thread... CCP needs to raise the bar on integrity.
Think about this - I'm the friend of a Dev.. I may even know he is a Dev... we are up late one night camping some gate or locking down some system in 0.0 -- just the two of us, in a TS channel. We get to shooting the crap about the game -- I mention how it doesnt matter if I lose my ship because I have a T1 Cargo Expander BPO... well... Mr. Dev then says something as innocent and off hand as, "From the changes I hear, I would sell that off right away if I was you."
BOOM. No log. Cheating. To anyone that doesn't play the game you have to understand that a single BPO of the right kind can basically let you print money in the game... and that statement above would have saved that player billions upon billions...
It's not about the T20 incident. It is about CCPs handling of this that points to a corporate culture that I distrust.
CCP needs to enforce an absolute zero tolerance for actions like this.. and actions more direct then this. They need to enforce it with the same meticulousness that a japanese tea ceremony master makes tea... meticulous to the extereme. They need to change their corporate culture to match this.
At that's why until T20 is let go and these changes are made there is no point in playing this game -- unless your a Dev. Then you have a nice little playground which you can pretend to be god in.
Just want to distance myself from this statement above - I respect peoples beliefs because I don't have all the answers (if I ever figure out life the universe and everything I promise to post it here for you guys!)
I will admit openly that, pending their existence, any of the following entities are allowed to have a god complex which I will humbly play in:
You will notice the distinct lack of any "CCP" related entries on that list. So until CCP ends the god complex I will pass, and encourage others to do the same.
Cheers.
what you failed to explain to those that don't know is that those particular BPOs were not the liscense to print money bpos. You must also state that there is no guaruntee that anyone would have gotten those BPOs to begin with. Would BoB failed miserably with out those BPOs, not a chance in hell. Would the other side have won assuming they would have gotten all of them. More and likely, no, thesse were not in any way shape or form game breaking BPOs. if you think that they were you need to get some experience in the game. Even the spike L can be stopped with the simple addition of Sensor Damps or ECM. the Sabre while a nice BPO to have would be far from ground breaking. Dictors are far from a rare ship in the game, and in no way shape or form a money maker like the Exhumers or HAC bps.
As for the whole issue withthe T1 cargo expander BPs never understood why you would have sold them in the first place, and you did get it backwards Ashton, the dev would have told him to keep the BPO though it is really not an important correction for the purposes of your arguement.
As for the statement to say that there is no reason to play this game unless your a dev, I happen to find that completely rediculous. I have never lossed a ship that I did not chalk up to bad luck, poor fitting or just plain stupidity on my part. then again I first look to see what I did wrong compared to what my opponent did right before accusing anyone of hacking. this is not a behavor that has been mirrored alway. I have myself been accused of being a dev, which I find funny because ,well I lack pretty much any type of serious game designing skills. What you accomplish in EVE has always been based more around what your attitude in the game is, if you head into the game with the mentality that you can't compete then you will find reasons that you can't compete (with the exception of the T2 lottery where if you expect to get a BPO out of it, well your an optimist, friend is pushing over 3mil RP and still none).
Of course, since those BPOs weren't just "popped", but were generated using some sort of BPO lottery exploit, one may wonder if anyone else knew about this particular exploit.. you know, like certain alliance leaders with a reputation for "winning at any cost" who already knew that these BPOs weren't legit? I DON'T KNOW!!
Of course, there's no chance in heck that a dev who engaged in this kind of BLATENT cheating did anything so "innocent" as tip his corpies off about game mechanics, events, changes, etc... NEVER EVER IMPOSSIBLE TINFOIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!
Lots of good stuff here - thanks for your reply!
- Job Security. -- although I appreciate that in the balance between customer retention and employee stability you feel that this is a make or break issue and lean one way, I happen to lean the other. If my employees were spawning BPOs I would want them looking over their shoulders. In fact, I would want them in an unemployment line. This isn't about some grey issue that was interpretted the wrong way. Likewise, if an employee stole money from petty cash I would fire them. There are many many situations where I would immediately fire an employee, and this T20 thing is one of them. If the corporate culture at CCP is what it should be, one of integrity and trust that has been ingrained from day 1, then keeping him on is an example of how to ruin that corporate culture. Only thing I can figure is he has some kind of indispensible job function.
- BPO Value.-- Yes, you are right, if my sole purpose in life was to print money I would have spawned differnt BPOs. As I have said all along though, this isn't about the T20 incident - it is about how that incident was handled, and the corporate culture that the way it was handled points to. Who cares what BPOs they were - they could have been civilian gatling laser BPOs... doesn't matter - the handling of it was abhorrent and that indicates a corporate culture of tolerance. (Still, I wouldn't compain if I was handed a sabre BPO).
- T1 Cargo thing - As i said above, this is an example. I wasn't talking specifically about this. I could have used the word "widget" and the issue wouldn't have been there. I am talking about information that is passed from DEV to player - - LIKE BPO value adjustments, LIKE Passive targetters being used through POS shields -- LIKE scanning and timer adjustments that within a 1 week window (and a 1 week window only between patches) allowed for the distruction of a Titan in game... LIKE these things... LIKE nodes dropping when BoD jumps in but they are able to regroup faster... LIKE... information is power in Eve - and information isn't logged.
- Losing ships and reasons to play EvE. -- Iv'e lost ships. I've lost ships cause I was stupid, cause I was out numbered, because I was afk. I've killed them as well. Me killing a ship or having a ship ruined isn't the level of the game that is ruined. What is ruined is the fact that I know that some of the ships I am now fighting against are in "God Mode" -- there is a reason that "God MOde" is disabled in a multiplayer game -- it isn't fun for the opponents... NOW WAIT! Before you nit pick and say, "they arent really in god mode, you can blow them up!" -- let me clraify that by God mode in this case I mean that the have enough information, they have enough money, they have enough ill-gotten power, that inevitably their individual destruction doesn't matter. Sure, I will be able to destroy their single ship - but I can't shape the universe of New Eden. I can't play in the sandbox of EvE online and aspire to be anything more then a peon... because I don't work for CCP.
Cheers mate. For as long as you are flying around New Eden, fly safe. Unless there is a change this Pod Pilot is retiring...
I wanna be a pod pilot aspiring to be an ibis pilot.
Well said, Ashton....
==========================
The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
What rights?
The right to play the game
The right to play with other people
There is no right to direct the company how to deal with internal problems with their staff
There is no right to demand 'transparency' on how they deal with issues
There is no right to demand they fire an employee or penalize other players who may or may not be innocent of any wrongdoing.
Fact: T20 spawned 10 Tech2 BPO's for his normal character with his dev account - violation
Fact: For quite some time he used those BPO's himself in game with his normal account - violation
Fact: Shortly before being caught he gave those BPO's to his corporation - violation on his part...
Speculation: We have no way of knowing if the Corp actually knew the BPO's were illicitely obtained. If they did it would be a violation but if they didn't they are just an innocent bystander.
Fact: The BPO's have been removed from the game
Fact: T20's accounts (other than his dev account) have been terminated and all the characters wiped.
Fact: A few other Devs' player accounts were exposed
Fact: All of those accounts have been wiped out. Destroying several years worth of play effort for those devs, whether they did anything wrong or not. Most probably had never done anything wrong other than somehow get exposed as a dev while playing on their normal account.
Statement by CCP: They have implemented new tools to prevent things like what T20 did from happening again.
Statement by CCP: They have implemented an entire new division to monitor employee activities vis-a-vis the game.
Statement by CCP: A new manager for that division has been appointed.
Now, we can quibble about how it took them so long and they weren't open about it in the first place yada yada. You can be bent that they took their sweet time to do it but the fact is that they ARE doing things about it. Whether you think they've gone far enough or not has no bearing on the issue. The fact is that they HAVE punished the perpetrator AND have removed the offending materials from the game. They have no way of knowing if the members of T20's corporation knew the BPO's were illegal so doing any type of retroactive punishment to the PLAYERS would be foolish.
But hey, if you want to quit over a screwup of one employee and, admittedly, somewhat poorly handled situation? Go for it.
But can I have your ISK and BPO's before you leave please? I'll even give the BPO's back if you decide to come back later
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell