The funny part is, most of the problems people are complaining about are problems that every MMO suffers from within it's first month of release. Lag issues? Check
Server database issues? Check
Class balance issues? Check
Client stability issues? Check
Server stability issues? Check Feel free to post if you've seen an MMO launched that didn't have any of these problems. I'll be surprised if anyone can think of one though. Remember in WoW when the zeppelins were dropping people all over the place? Not a big deal. But somehow the haters seem to hold Vanguard to a different standard.
in all fairness. haven't the VG devs stated that the game is still, essentially, in beta testing stage? that they had to release retail because they ran out of money?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
What I find most amusing is who Brad himself blames..
He says the problem is having too many devs... says when you have an army of devs it becomes more about structuring and managing teams and less about making the game.
Seems kinda lame to me.
Almost like he is saying I didnt shit in my pants, THEY DID!!! ~ points at his dev teams~
As Trump would say ultimately it comes down to the Project Manager.. If he is a Developer and doesn't know how to manage personnel, then he needs to hire or delate to someone who does, and then get to doing what he does best. If he couldn't manage the people working on the project then he should be the one...
Im too lazy to check, but is the OP the same crazed and delusional SOE fanboi that posted "SWG didnt abandon you, you abandoned it"?
So naive to think anyone NOT on sigils payroll owes them smallest little bit of ANYTHING at all.
Testers offered their free time, to do work FOR FREE (even chinese farmers would think $15 a month is slave labor, so dont use that crappy little argument). If anything, Sigil owes them.
Ohh, and btw, i posted that the game was below average, full of bugs, and nothing special long before NDA was lifted....but I got called a troll, and the post was removed, because only positive comments are allowed before NDA is lifted.
But why the hell am I even telling you this? To you, im already a troll for even doubting vangrind for a second!
I think the op should post his rig so we can all get one.
No lag issues, no crashes, no low fps issues, no databse issues, no zoning issues, no broken quests - hell we all need one of those rigs. Is it a 10,000rpm hard drive? Do you have 8Gb of RAM; an 80 core Intel processor. We need one of these rigs.
What I find most amusing is who Brad himself blames.. He says the problem is having too many devs... says when you have an army of devs it becomes more about structuring and managing teams and less about making the game. Seems kinda lame to me. Almost like he is saying I didnt shit in my pants, THEY DID!!! ~ points at his dev teams~ As Trump would say ultimately it comes down to the Project Manager.. If he is a Developer and doesn't know how to manage personnel, then he needs to hire or delate to someone who does, and then get to doing what he does best. If he couldn't manage the people working on the project then he should be the one... YOU'RE FIRED!
You're kidding right? Did you even read that article? He wasn't blaming the amount of developers on the condition of the game, he was talking about his role within the company.
The article was in the NYT, in wich it profiled Brad Mcquaids return to the MMO market and vanguard. It had more to do with Brad Mcquaid then it did with Vanguard and had absolutely nothing to do with Brad blaming his developement team for problems with the game.
All I heard from these so called beta testers were good things before launch.
That's because the only beta testers who were allowed to speak pre-launch were ones who had permission, and were given permission only because they would say the game is great. All posts by beta testers being critical of the game that stated they were based on beta game play were deleted.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I don't get it. Why are these two groups the only ones that can be blamed ?
There doesn't seem to be any doubt that bug reports were submitted to Sigil. There doesn't seem
to be any doubt that Sigil management recognized that there were outstanding problems. That
sounds like the testers did the job they were asked to do.
So now we are left with blaming either the developers or management for the problem. Either way
it is Sigil or Sigil and SOE. Given sufficient time, most bugs can be fixed. If insufficient time is
available, then you go for the low hanging fruit (the easy fixes or sometimes the ones which are
considered gamebreaking). Either way, the developers are told what bugs to work on. They fix
what they can based on the time available.
So we are left with management being responsible for deciding to or not to release the product.
It would seem that management is the one responsible for the quality of the product. They dictate the
order things will be worked on, the order things will be fixed, they establish the available time (there
is never enough time) , they dictate the budgets, they dictate who gets rewarded and who doesn't,
etc.
Just my two cents.
This sounds pretty sencible to me.
Don't blame the testers, at least not all of them, they did what they were supposed to do.
Can't really blame the developers, they also did and do what they are told to.
You can put the blame on management, but to what extent. How long did they know that they would need to release early? Did they do everything in thier power, given the time they had, to get the game ready for retail? In my opinion, based on experience in game, I think they a fine job getting a game in working order for an early release, but thats my opinion and I know others have thier opinion as to what they consider "fine"
I keep seeing the word mismanagement used in a lot of posts now. I really wish the people using this word would provide evidence in the form of benchmarks and directions that were given to the developers prior to release that support thier claim of mismanagement or just stop using this word altogether. It's like there's a bunch of disgruntled former Sigil employees running around on these boards sometimes.
Not a single one of us posting on these boards has any inside information as to the goings on of the management at Sigil to make claims like mismanagement. Not a single one of us is privy to the iner workings of that particullar company or any form of insight to be able to make any sort of claim as to what they did or did not do right or wrong at Sigil.
It's like reading posts by a bunch of monday morning quarterbacks, only in this case I guess you could call them monday morning Sigil developement managers.
Just because you beta tested this game or any other doesn't mean you know squat about what it takes to produce an MMO.
Just because you play an MMO doesn't mean you know squat about what it takes to produce an MMO.
Just because you like an MMO doesn't mean you know squat about what it takes to produce an MMO.
Just because you hate an MMO doesn mean you know squat about what it takes to produce an MMO.
And until you can produce evidence of a degree in computer programming as it relates to video games, have seen the source code, and experience on the job producing MMO's, then telling others what should or shouldn't have been done means absolutely squat because you're just talking out of your ass.
I keep seeing the word mismanagement used in a lot of posts now. I really wish the people using this word would provide evidence in the form of benchmarks and directions that were given to the developers prior to release that support thier claim of mismanagement or just stop using this word altogether.
it's actually very simple-- Vanguard had five years of development time. They had a massive budget for the game, with rumors placing it second only to World of Warcraft in terms of dollar amounts. They had the support of Microsoft for most of that time, only to be cut loose, with SOE having to pick up the slack (i.e., sending over people from EQ2 to help things along at the end), and the game *still* had to come out at least six months early because they ran out of money and time to work on it.
I don't know about anyone else here, but that sounds like total mismanagement to me.
Brad McQuaid has gone through the process of developing an MMO before. He should know what it takes, what benchmarks should be set, and about how development should progress over time. That they still had to release the game months before it was ready for public consumption is quite simply Sigil's fault, and by extension his. He should know better. Anything else is just an excuse.
Blaming the testers? Pfft. Sigil are the ones who wrote the code. They're the ones who created the programming that runs on SOE's servers. They're the ones who have been working on the game for the last five years. Blaming the testers is stupid and just passes the buck elsewhere. Put the blame firmly where it belongs-- at the feet of the company that has been working on this game since day one. Period.
I keep seeing the word mismanagement used in a lot of posts now. I really wish the people using this word would provide evidence in the form of benchmarks and directions that were given to the developers prior to release that support thier claim of mismanagement or just stop using this word altogether.
it's actually very simple-- Vanguard had five years of development time. They had a massive budget for the game, with rumors placing it second only to World of Warcraft in terms of dollar amounts. They had the support of Microsoft for most of that time, only to be cut loose, with SOE having to pick up the slack (i.e., sending over people from EQ2 to help things along at the end), and the game *still* had to come out at least six months early because they ran out of money and time to work on it.
I don't know about anyone else here, but that sounds like total mismanagement to me.
Brad McQuaid has gone through the process of developing an MMO before. He should know what it takes, what benchmarks should be set, and about how development should progress over time. That they still had to release the game months before it was ready for public consumption is quite simply Sigil's fault, and by extension his. He should know better. Anything else is just an excuse.
Blaming the testers? Pfft. Sigil are the ones who wrote the code. They're the ones who created the programming that runs on SOE's servers. They're the ones who have been working on the game for the last five years. Blaming the testers is stupid and just passes the buck elsewhere. Put the blame firmly where it belongs-- at the feet of the company that has been working on this game since day one. Period.
So you must be able to provide proof of all this right? You know exactly how much money they had and how they spent it? You know what thier directiion was during developement and what thier overhead was? Do you know ANYTHING that is factual about how the company was run during those five years to be able to claim mismanagement?
So you must be able to provide proof of all this right? You know exactly how much money they had and how they spent it? You know what thier directiion was during developement and what thier overhead was? Do you know ANYTHING that is factual about how the company was run during those five years to be able to claim mismanagement? Nope. Didn't think so.
And I'm quite sure that you can easily provide all of that information yourself in order to prove me wrong. Correct?
Nope. Didn't think so.
Bottom line-- after five years and millions spent, the game should have been ready, with an optimized client, and a lot more polish than what I saw.
Any other company, with any other product, and if it had been released incomplete, with several more months to go before it was ready for public consumption, and that company would go bankrupt in a hurry. Here, it just merits a lot of fanboy excuses about how it's okay that the game came out at least six months before it was ready, because at least it's out and they can play.
I had an epiphany. Don't argue the points with these people guys. In a couple months after the bugs are fixed and the TBC hype dies down, VG's subs will soar.
I keep seeing the word mismanagement used in a lot of posts now. I really wish the people using this word would provide evidence in the form of benchmarks and directions that were given to the developers prior to release that support thier claim of mismanagement or just stop using this word altogether.
it's actually very simple-- Vanguard had five years of development time. They had a massive budget for the game, with rumors placing it second only to World of Warcraft in terms of dollar amounts. They had the support of Microsoft for most of that time, only to be cut loose, with SOE having to pick up the slack (i.e., sending over people from EQ2 to help things along at the end), and the game *still* had to come out at least six months early because they ran out of money and time to work on it.
I don't know about anyone else here, but that sounds like total mismanagement to me.
Brad McQuaid has gone through the process of developing an MMO before. He should know what it takes, what benchmarks should be set, and about how development should progress over time. That they still had to release the game months before it was ready for public consumption is quite simply Sigil's fault, and by extension his. He should know better. Anything else is just an excuse.
Blaming the testers? Pfft. Sigil are the ones who wrote the code. They're the ones who created the programming that runs on SOE's servers. They're the ones who have been working on the game for the last five years. Blaming the testers is stupid and just passes the buck elsewhere. Put the blame firmly where it belongs-- at the feet of the company that has been working on this game since day one. Period.
So you must be able to provide proof of all this right? You know exactly how much money they had and how they spent it? You know what thier directiion was during developement and what thier overhead was? Do you know ANYTHING that is factual about how the company was run during those five years to be able to claim mismanagement?
Nope. Didn't think so.
This sort of statement is ludicrous.
Even if someone was privy to this information, they wouldn't be allowed to share it.
However, what I can say is this; tens of millions of dollars and 5 years later, the game is sub-par. That's all the evidence I need for proof of mismanagement.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I keep seeing the word mismanagement used in a lot of posts now. I really wish the people using this word would provide evidence in the form of benchmarks and directions that were given to the developers prior to release that support thier claim of mismanagement or just stop using this word altogether.
it's actually very simple-- Vanguard had five years of development time. They had a massive budget for the game, with rumors placing it second only to World of Warcraft in terms of dollar amounts. They had the support of Microsoft for most of that time, only to be cut loose, with SOE having to pick up the slack (i.e., sending over people from EQ2 to help things along at the end), and the game *still* had to come out at least six months early because they ran out of money and time to work on it.
I don't know about anyone else here, but that sounds like total mismanagement to me.
Brad McQuaid has gone through the process of developing an MMO before. He should know what it takes, what benchmarks should be set, and about how development should progress over time. That they still had to release the game months before it was ready for public consumption is quite simply Sigil's fault, and by extension his. He should know better. Anything else is just an excuse.
Blaming the testers? Pfft. Sigil are the ones who wrote the code. They're the ones who created the programming that runs on SOE's servers. They're the ones who have been working on the game for the last five years. Blaming the testers is stupid and just passes the buck elsewhere. Put the blame firmly where it belongs-- at the feet of the company that has been working on this game since day one. Period.
So you must be able to provide proof of all this right? You know exactly how much money they had and how they spent it? You know what thier directiion was during developement and what thier overhead was? Do you know ANYTHING that is factual about how the company was run during those five years to be able to claim mismanagement? Nope. Didn't think so.
This sort of statement is ludicrous.
Even if someone was privy to this information, they wouldn't be allowed to share it.
However, what I can say is this; tens of millions of dollars and 5 years later, the game is sub-par. That's all the evidence I need for proof of mismanagement.
Staff writers should write official editorials/reviews first then come to make forum posts about their personal opinions.. I would also like to point out that your co-workers were praising this game up until release. Did Sony/Sigil not give you guys your little presents this month? I mean now your not even allowing players to give out buddy keys here but you do on other games, sounds kinda fishy guys.
Originally posted by Fariic I keep seeing the word mismanagement used in a lot of posts now. I really wish the people using this word would provide evidence in the form of benchmarks and directions that were given to the developers prior to release that support thier claim of mismanagement or just stop using this word altogether.
it's actually very simple-- Vanguard had five years of development time. They had a massive budget for the game, with rumors placing it second only to World of Warcraft in terms of dollar amounts. They had the support of Microsoft for most of that time, only to be cut loose, with SOE having to pick up the slack (i.e., sending over people from EQ2 to help things along at the end), and the game *still* had to come out at least six months early because they ran out of money and time to work on it.
I don't know about anyone else here, but that sounds like total mismanagement to me.
Brad McQuaid has gone through the process of developing an MMO before. He should know what it takes, what benchmarks should be set, and about how development should progress over time. That they still had to release the game months before it was ready for public consumption is quite simply Sigil's fault, and by extension his. He should know better. Anything else is just an excuse.
Blaming the testers? Pfft. Sigil are the ones who wrote the code. They're the ones who created the programming that runs on SOE's servers. They're the ones who have been working on the game for the last five years. Blaming the testers is stupid and just passes the buck elsewhere. Put the blame firmly where it belongs-- at the feet of the company that has been working on this game since day one. Period.
So you must be able to provide proof of all this right? You know exactly how much money they had and how they spent it? You know what thier directiion was during developement and what thier overhead was? Do you know ANYTHING that is factual about how the company was run during those five years to be able to claim mismanagement?
Nope. Didn't think so.
This sort of statement is ludicrous.
Even if someone was privy to this information, they wouldn't be allowed to share it.
However, what I can say is this; tens of millions of dollars and 5 years later, the game is sub-par. That's all the evidence I need for proof of mismanagement.
Staff writers should write official editorials/reviews first then come to make forum posts about their personal opinions.. I would also like to point out that your co-workers were praising this game up until release. Did Sony/Sigil not give you guys your little presents this month? I mean now your not even allowing players to give out buddy keys here but you do on other games, sounds kinda fishy guys.
While I don't appreciate the implications of the post regarding the "gifts", I can't explain the buddy key thing. Jon has made an official statement on it though.
You do realize Staff Writers are just people as well...we can anticipate a game, we can be impressed, and then become disillusioned just as much as any other person. I can't speak on my co-workers behalf, but I know I personally never once stated this game to be an amazing title. Granted, I consider myself a naturally cynical person, but even pre-release I expressed my concerns for this game. I don't believe I've flip-flopped around on my stances regarding Vanguard very much since release.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I had an epiphany. Don't argue the points with these people guys. In a couple months after the bugs are fixed and the TBC hype dies down, VG's subs will soar.
Wishful thinking.
The market for MMO's is saturated with games, and the window of opportunity for a game to bring in an audience is very short. Given the choice of a polished, somewhat stable client that already has an established player base (which applies to any game already out there, BTW-- EQ2, DAoC, EVE, CoH/CoV, etc.), or an unpolished game that was deliberately released at least six months before it was ready because the developers ran out of money, who do you think most gamers will choose?
Most consumers are very simple in their demands. They don't like to be frustrated when they play games. They like to be able to install and patch the client, set up their subscription, and jump right in, with the very simple expectation that they can look at the specs on the box and have their machine run the game with a minimum of hassle.
If a game can't deliver on those things from the beginning, a vast majority of people will just move on to something else. And with games like LOTR Online, WAR, Gods & Heroes, and Age of Conan on the horizon, the pressure is even higher.
Originally posted by Lidane Originally posted by DMEnoc I had an epiphany. Don't argue the points with these people guys. In a couple months after the bugs are fixed and the TBC hype dies down, VG's subs will soar.
Wishful thinking.
The market for MMO's is saturated with games, and the window of opportunity for a game to bring in an audience is very short. Given the choice of a polished, somewhat stable client that already has an established player base (which applies to any game already out there, BTW-- EQ2, DAoC, EVE, CoH/CoV, etc.), or an unpolished game that was deliberately released at least six months before it was ready because the developers ran out of money, who do you think most gamers will choose?
Most consumers are very simple in their demands. They don't like to be frustrated when they play games. They like to be able to install and patch the client, set up their subscription, and jump right in, with the very simple expectation that they can look at the specs on the box and have their machine run the game with a minimum of hassle.
If a game can't deliver on those things from the beginning, a vast majority of people will just move on to something else. And with games like LOTR Online, WAR, Gods & Heroes, and Age of Conan on the horizon, the pressure is even higher.
Originally posted by Blurr The funny part is, most of the problems people are complaining about are problems that every MMO suffers from within it's first month of release. Lag issues? Check Server database issues? Check Class balance issues? Check Client stability issues? Check Server stability issues? Check Feel free to post if you've seen an MMO launched that didn't have any of these problems. I'll be surprised if anyone can think of one though.
LOL Don't even fricken try. I was in with the original Alpha group and I personally reported thousands of bugs. How many were actually fixed by end of beta?? 3.. That's right out of well over 2000 reported, 3 a silly sorry pathetic little 3 got fixed. The worst part of this whole thread is... I WARNED YOU... and other real testers WARNED YOU. Right here on this forum and yet you heckled us, flamed us, and called us all liars.. so suck it up. No sympathy from me.
Doh!! Troll siting!!
I wasn't in Beta, but I try to do my part in reporting bugs as I play VG. They can't get fixed if they are not reported. I found one broken quest and reported it and it was fixed in the next patch (obviously, others probably reported it too). Last night I just reported a spelling error on an item on the bottom of a lake. It'll be interesting to see if something cosmetic like that gets fixed.
They must weigh the criticality of the bug against effort to fix to prioritize what is worked on and what is delayed.
Sorry OP but you are dead wrong. The closed beta testers did their job. Sigil and SOE are the ones you need to be throwing rotten tomatoes at.
Originally posted by Smyd
When people write about this game they always note the points they aren't happy with, and honestly if i listened to all these complainers I would be missing out on a shit load of fun.
This game isn't for everyone, but try it for yourself with no outside influences affecting your opinion to develop your own.
I think you mean the game is a load of shit don't you? I would advise that when the ten day trial comes out by all means people should try it for themselves, however do not spend good money on it.
You never miss a chance to dog on Vanguard...do ya.
Am glad jack dosent like it that way i dont ever have to worry about sharing the same game space as him must be the most depressing guy to group with ever in the history of mmo's. Sorry jack nothing personal but ive grouped with people like you that have to point out every rock or blade of grass that they find out of place it gets old real fast.Name any game you want and i can go through it and pick it apart . But you know what i prefer to have a good laugh at the little things that are wrong and just enjoy games for what they are
I was reading through that one post and one tester said he got banned for bringing up problems with the game thru chat. I would think he was smart enough to submit all the bugs he was discussing. I remeber in beta a fellow was asking for 4 hours why he couldn't read the text on his dialog screens and noone would answer him, then 6 or 7 hours later he comes back and sayd "it was the vid drivers" and like 4 people said " yah , it is the vid driver" I was like , wow these people are insane. Shortly after that I thought , this is ridiculous and left ,when my other beta arrived. You can blame me if you want, but i'm not a programmer
Well first getting banned for discussing bugs...not a chance. Several people were permanently banned in Beta but no one was banned for discussing bugs. If that was the case, all the legit beta testers would have been banned.
As to you leaving for another beta because your not a programmer: good luck on how that next game turns out. Beta testers are supposed to TEST the game and report bugs to let the programmers know what needs attention. However too many people consider it just a chance to test it before you buy it.
I guess the fellow decided this , how could he test something that didn't work ? at the time he was testing it.
I tested VG for long months. I gave in game feedback, wrote reports and posted on the forums. It was like beating a dead horse over and over and over again. When I quit it, the horse was still dead!
You are pointing a finger at testers. "Unfair" would be too light a word for this. Instead, ask the devs how they have wasted big, long 5 years!
CONTRIBUTE INTO THE GAMING INDUSTRY! STOP PAYING FOR BORING COPYCATS, UNFINISHED BUGFESTS AND CRANKY JUNKWARE. BE A RESPONSIBLE GAMER!
Comments
in all fairness. haven't the VG devs stated that the game is still, essentially, in beta testing stage? that they had to release retail because they ran out of money?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
What I find most amusing is who Brad himself blames..
He says the problem is having too many devs... says when you have an army of devs it becomes more about structuring and managing teams and less about making the game.
Seems kinda lame to me.
Almost like he is saying I didnt shit in my pants, THEY DID!!! ~ points at his dev teams~
As Trump would say ultimately it comes down to the Project Manager.. If he is a Developer and doesn't know how to manage personnel, then he needs to hire or delate to someone who does, and then get to doing what he does best. If he couldn't manage the people working on the project then he should be the one...
YOU'RE FIRED!
Im too lazy to check, but is the OP the same crazed and delusional SOE fanboi that posted "SWG didnt abandon you, you abandoned it"?
So naive to think anyone NOT on sigils payroll owes them smallest little bit of ANYTHING at all.
Testers offered their free time, to do work FOR FREE (even chinese farmers would think $15 a month is slave labor, so dont use that crappy little argument). If anything, Sigil owes them.
Ohh, and btw, i posted that the game was below average, full of bugs, and nothing special long before NDA was lifted....but I got called a troll, and the post was removed, because only positive comments are allowed before NDA is lifted.
But why the hell am I even telling you this? To you, im already a troll for even doubting vangrind for a second!
I think the op should post his rig so we can all get one.
No lag issues, no crashes, no low fps issues, no databse issues, no zoning issues, no broken quests - hell we all need one of those rigs. Is it a 10,000rpm hard drive? Do you have 8Gb of RAM; an 80 core Intel processor. We need one of these rigs.
You're kidding right? Did you even read that article? He wasn't blaming the amount of developers on the condition of the game, he was talking about his role within the company.
The article was in the NYT, in wich it profiled Brad Mcquaids return to the MMO market and vanguard. It had more to do with Brad Mcquaid then it did with Vanguard and had absolutely nothing to do with Brad blaming his developement team for problems with the game.
Heres a link, but unless you subscribe to the NYT you can't see the article anymore: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/07/arts/11schi.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&ref=arts&oref=slogin
Maybe you already knew this Sorrow; wich is why you would be willing to post such a bold faced LIE.
That's because the only beta testers who were allowed to speak pre-launch were ones who had permission, and were given permission only because they would say the game is great. All posts by beta testers being critical of the game that stated they were based on beta game play were deleted.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
There doesn't seem to be any doubt that bug reports were submitted to Sigil. There doesn't seem
to be any doubt that Sigil management recognized that there were outstanding problems. That
sounds like the testers did the job they were asked to do.
So now we are left with blaming either the developers or management for the problem. Either way
it is Sigil or Sigil and SOE. Given sufficient time, most bugs can be fixed. If insufficient time is
available, then you go for the low hanging fruit (the easy fixes or sometimes the ones which are
considered gamebreaking). Either way, the developers are told what bugs to work on. They fix
what they can based on the time available.
So we are left with management being responsible for deciding to or not to release the product.
It would seem that management is the one responsible for the quality of the product. They dictate the
order things will be worked on, the order things will be fixed, they establish the available time (there
is never enough time) , they dictate the budgets, they dictate who gets rewarded and who doesn't,
etc.
Just my two cents.
This sounds pretty sencible to me.
Don't blame the testers, at least not all of them, they did what they were supposed to do.
Can't really blame the developers, they also did and do what they are told to.
You can put the blame on management, but to what extent. How long did they know that they would need to release early? Did they do everything in thier power, given the time they had, to get the game ready for retail? In my opinion, based on experience in game, I think they a fine job getting a game in working order for an early release, but thats my opinion and I know others have thier opinion as to what they consider "fine"
I keep seeing the word mismanagement used in a lot of posts now. I really wish the people using this word would provide evidence in the form of benchmarks and directions that were given to the developers prior to release that support thier claim of mismanagement or just stop using this word altogether. It's like there's a bunch of disgruntled former Sigil employees running around on these boards sometimes.
Not a single one of us posting on these boards has any inside information as to the goings on of the management at Sigil to make claims like mismanagement. Not a single one of us is privy to the iner workings of that particullar company or any form of insight to be able to make any sort of claim as to what they did or did not do right or wrong at Sigil.
It's like reading posts by a bunch of monday morning quarterbacks, only in this case I guess you could call them monday morning Sigil developement managers.
Just because you beta tested this game or any other doesn't mean you know squat about what it takes to produce an MMO.
Just because you play an MMO doesn't mean you know squat about what it takes to produce an MMO.
Just because you like an MMO doesn't mean you know squat about what it takes to produce an MMO.
Just because you hate an MMO doesn mean you know squat about what it takes to produce an MMO.
And until you can produce evidence of a degree in computer programming as it relates to video games, have seen the source code, and experience on the job producing MMO's, then telling others what should or shouldn't have been done means absolutely squat because you're just talking out of your ass.
Really, it's that simple.
I don't know about anyone else here, but that sounds like total mismanagement to me.
Brad McQuaid has gone through the process of developing an MMO before. He should know what it takes, what benchmarks should be set, and about how development should progress over time. That they still had to release the game months before it was ready for public consumption is quite simply Sigil's fault, and by extension his. He should know better. Anything else is just an excuse.
Blaming the testers? Pfft. Sigil are the ones who wrote the code. They're the ones who created the programming that runs on SOE's servers. They're the ones who have been working on the game for the last five years. Blaming the testers is stupid and just passes the buck elsewhere. Put the blame firmly where it belongs-- at the feet of the company that has been working on this game since day one. Period.
I don't know about anyone else here, but that sounds like total mismanagement to me.
Brad McQuaid has gone through the process of developing an MMO before. He should know what it takes, what benchmarks should be set, and about how development should progress over time. That they still had to release the game months before it was ready for public consumption is quite simply Sigil's fault, and by extension his. He should know better. Anything else is just an excuse.
Blaming the testers? Pfft. Sigil are the ones who wrote the code. They're the ones who created the programming that runs on SOE's servers. They're the ones who have been working on the game for the last five years. Blaming the testers is stupid and just passes the buck elsewhere. Put the blame firmly where it belongs-- at the feet of the company that has been working on this game since day one. Period.
So you must be able to provide proof of all this right? You know exactly how much money they had and how they spent it? You know what thier directiion was during developement and what thier overhead was? Do you know ANYTHING that is factual about how the company was run during those five years to be able to claim mismanagement?
Nope. Didn't think so.
It's the developers choice to rely on free labor to beta test. Therefore it is the developers fault.
You get what you pay for.
Nope. Didn't think so.
Bottom line-- after five years and millions spent, the game should have been ready, with an optimized client, and a lot more polish than what I saw.
Any other company, with any other product, and if it had been released incomplete, with several more months to go before it was ready for public consumption, and that company would go bankrupt in a hurry. Here, it just merits a lot of fanboy excuses about how it's okay that the game came out at least six months before it was ready, because at least it's out and they can play.
I had an epiphany. Don't argue the points with these people guys. In a couple months after the bugs are fixed and the TBC hype dies down, VG's subs will soar.
I don't know about anyone else here, but that sounds like total mismanagement to me.
Brad McQuaid has gone through the process of developing an MMO before. He should know what it takes, what benchmarks should be set, and about how development should progress over time. That they still had to release the game months before it was ready for public consumption is quite simply Sigil's fault, and by extension his. He should know better. Anything else is just an excuse.
Blaming the testers? Pfft. Sigil are the ones who wrote the code. They're the ones who created the programming that runs on SOE's servers. They're the ones who have been working on the game for the last five years. Blaming the testers is stupid and just passes the buck elsewhere. Put the blame firmly where it belongs-- at the feet of the company that has been working on this game since day one. Period.
So you must be able to provide proof of all this right? You know exactly how much money they had and how they spent it? You know what thier directiion was during developement and what thier overhead was? Do you know ANYTHING that is factual about how the company was run during those five years to be able to claim mismanagement?
Nope. Didn't think so.
This sort of statement is ludicrous.Even if someone was privy to this information, they wouldn't be allowed to share it.
However, what I can say is this; tens of millions of dollars and 5 years later, the game is sub-par. That's all the evidence I need for proof of mismanagement.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Staff writers should write official editorials/reviews first then come to make forum posts about their personal opinions.. I would also like to point out that your co-workers were praising this game up until release. Did Sony/Sigil not give you guys your little presents this month? I mean now your not even allowing players to give out buddy keys here but you do on other games, sounds kinda fishy guys.
I don't know about anyone else here, but that sounds like total mismanagement to me.
Brad McQuaid has gone through the process of developing an MMO before. He should know what it takes, what benchmarks should be set, and about how development should progress over time. That they still had to release the game months before it was ready for public consumption is quite simply Sigil's fault, and by extension his. He should know better. Anything else is just an excuse.
Blaming the testers? Pfft. Sigil are the ones who wrote the code. They're the ones who created the programming that runs on SOE's servers. They're the ones who have been working on the game for the last five years. Blaming the testers is stupid and just passes the buck elsewhere. Put the blame firmly where it belongs-- at the feet of the company that has been working on this game since day one. Period.
So you must be able to provide proof of all this right? You know exactly how much money they had and how they spent it? You know what thier directiion was during developement and what thier overhead was? Do you know ANYTHING that is factual about how the company was run during those five years to be able to claim mismanagement?
Nope. Didn't think so.
This sort of statement is ludicrous.
Even if someone was privy to this information, they wouldn't be allowed to share it.
However, what I can say is this; tens of millions of dollars and 5 years later, the game is sub-par. That's all the evidence I need for proof of mismanagement.
Staff writers should write official editorials/reviews first then come to make forum posts about their personal opinions.. I would also like to point out that your co-workers were praising this game up until release. Did Sony/Sigil not give you guys your little presents this month? I mean now your not even allowing players to give out buddy keys here but you do on other games, sounds kinda fishy guys.
While I don't appreciate the implications of the post regarding the "gifts", I can't explain the buddy key thing. Jon has made an official statement on it though.You do realize Staff Writers are just people as well...we can anticipate a game, we can be impressed, and then become disillusioned just as much as any other person. I can't speak on my co-workers behalf, but I know I personally never once stated this game to be an amazing title. Granted, I consider myself a naturally cynical person, but even pre-release I expressed my concerns for this game. I don't believe I've flip-flopped around on my stances regarding Vanguard very much since release.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
The market for MMO's is saturated with games, and the window of opportunity for a game to bring in an audience is very short. Given the choice of a polished, somewhat stable client that already has an established player base (which applies to any game already out there, BTW-- EQ2, DAoC, EVE, CoH/CoV, etc.), or an unpolished game that was deliberately released at least six months before it was ready because the developers ran out of money, who do you think most gamers will choose?
Most consumers are very simple in their demands. They don't like to be frustrated when they play games. They like to be able to install and patch the client, set up their subscription, and jump right in, with the very simple expectation that they can look at the specs on the box and have their machine run the game with a minimum of hassle.
If a game can't deliver on those things from the beginning, a vast majority of people will just move on to something else. And with games like LOTR Online, WAR, Gods & Heroes, and Age of Conan on the horizon, the pressure is even higher.
The market for MMO's is saturated with games, and the window of opportunity for a game to bring in an audience is very short. Given the choice of a polished, somewhat stable client that already has an established player base (which applies to any game already out there, BTW-- EQ2, DAoC, EVE, CoH/CoV, etc.), or an unpolished game that was deliberately released at least six months before it was ready because the developers ran out of money, who do you think most gamers will choose?
Most consumers are very simple in their demands. They don't like to be frustrated when they play games. They like to be able to install and patch the client, set up their subscription, and jump right in, with the very simple expectation that they can look at the specs on the box and have their machine run the game with a minimum of hassle.
If a game can't deliver on those things from the beginning, a vast majority of people will just move on to something else. And with games like LOTR Online, WAR, Gods & Heroes, and Age of Conan on the horizon, the pressure is even higher.
We'll just have to wait and see
Guild Wars and its expansions.
City of Heroes is another. Most EQ expansions - certainly the post-DAoC ones when SoE realised it had to get its act together.
The simple fact remains that Vanguards release is one of the bad ones. Saying anything else smacks of head inthe sand syndrome.
Doh!! Troll siting!!
I wasn't in Beta, but I try to do my part in reporting bugs as I play VG. They can't get fixed if they are not reported. I found one broken quest and reported it and it was fixed in the next patch (obviously, others probably reported it too). Last night I just reported a spelling error on an item on the bottom of a lake. It'll be interesting to see if something cosmetic like that gets fixed.
They must weigh the criticality of the bug against effort to fix to prioritize what is worked on and what is delayed.
I think you mean the game is a load of shit don't you? I would advise that when the ten day trial comes out by all means people should try it for themselves, however do not spend good money on it.
You never miss a chance to dog on Vanguard...do ya.Am glad jack dosent like it that way i dont ever have to worry about sharing the same game space as him must be the most depressing guy to group with ever in the history of mmo's. Sorry jack nothing personal but ive grouped with people like you that have to point out every rock or blade of grass that they find out of place it gets old real fast.Name any game you want and i can go through it and pick it apart . But you know what i prefer to have a good laugh at the little things that are wrong and just enjoy games for what they are
Well first getting banned for discussing bugs...not a chance. Several people were permanently banned in Beta but no one was banned for discussing bugs. If that was the case, all the legit beta testers would have been banned.
As to you leaving for another beta because your not a programmer: good luck on how that next game turns out. Beta testers are supposed to TEST the game and report bugs to let the programmers know what needs attention. However too many people consider it just a chance to test it before you buy it.
I guess the fellow decided this , how could he test something that didn't work ? at the time he was testing it.who me ?
I tested VG for long months. I gave in game feedback, wrote reports and posted on the forums. It was like beating a dead horse over and over and over again. When I quit it, the horse was still dead!
You are pointing a finger at testers. "Unfair" would be too light a word for this. Instead, ask the devs how they have wasted big, long 5 years!
CONTRIBUTE INTO THE GAMING INDUSTRY! STOP PAYING FOR BORING COPYCATS, UNFINISHED BUGFESTS AND CRANKY JUNKWARE. BE A RESPONSIBLE GAMER!