Now that I've been in for a week (give or take a few days due to work) I'm really having a good time. Groups can be difficult to find, but then as in other games, I've taken to starting the group myself and get instant responses. It's quite amazing how many people just stand around idly in so many games waiting for groups instead of just starting a group and getting it over with. One thing I'll say now: so far my experience with PUGs has been incredible. Everyone, and I mean everyone, has been great -- very helpful and mature. I typically do a lot of solo play in MMORPGs, either due to my work days and hours being out of sync with my friends, or just not in the mood to group sometimes, and I find DDOs solo difficulty setting a bit... difficult... starting at the level 2 medium+ length quests. As for grinding the quests, so far the only thing I've done that on is the level 1 and level 2 short quests on solo difficulty. Not because I had to, but because I wanted to. All in all, so far I'm pleased with DDO. I never even planned on trying it, but I'm glad I did. After all the other MMOGs I've done, I'm just not in the mood for yet another traditional timesink game over the summer. I can pop into DDO, pick a quest or few to run, and logout. I don't have to commit several nights a week to raiding for 5+ hours at a time, and right now that's what I was looking for.
Hehe, the lower levels are like that. Once you hit 5 or 6, you just about can't do solo missions.
Played it in beta didn't like the combat , didn't like the instance feel to it , HATE the setting. Call me old school but I would have over looked everything if I could have walked into the middle of shadowdale or waterdeep and saw other players walking around. I played ad&d since 1990 but have not bought a book since 3.0 rule set came out so I guess thats another reason I don't like it. Plus I feel the only reason they didn't use Forgotten Realms or Grayhawk or Dragonlance was to make a new setting so they could try and milk more money out of people so I'll keep playing wow until a real ad&d comes out.
I did *not* play in beta, never had any desire to even try DDO until a couple weeks ago. Maybe I just lucked out that the teams are able to start putting some serious work into DDO now that LOTRO is about done, or maybe I've just played so many other MMORPGs that I'm able to appreciate that DDO is something totally different than the rest.
I love the combat, though I do notice the melee guys seem a bit "click happy" swinging away after the mobs are dead. I'm playing a caster (wizard) since DDO is so far the only MMOG I've played that comes close to what I have imagined when reading books etc. WoW was just about the worst, in contrast. I saw mages do some amazingly cool things, but when I rolled one myself I absolutely hated playing the class. I've done the "tab attack" stand in place and play whack-a-mole on so many other titles (and will likely have to do it in many more to come) that I'm totally digging having complete control for once. Block? Dodge? Tumble? Or hey, how about just saying "oh, this guy just fired an arrow at me. How about I just move a little bit so it misses me." Can't do that in any other game, because the mobs are "tab locked" onto you just like you "tab lock" onto them.
"They" (they being Turbine) did not invent the setting. I actually don't mind it, though a free world Dragonlance MMORPG would kick so much ass it's not funny, especially if we had dragon combat and your actions determine your alignment shifts. Just like with the gameplay itself, they chose D&D's newest setting, something brand new and different. Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms (FR has some sweet novels though) have been around forever and other than novels really don't interest me personally as far as building a game in them.
I'm not a D&D fan or player so take that for whatever it's worth...
WotC does approve everything Turbine puts in the live game though, so again while I don't play the PnP game at all, I've never touched a d20 game and never plan to, if the owners of the IP approve it, then it must be good enough.
Does AD&D even exist anymore? (That's what I did play when I did PnP) or is everything just the d20 "D&D"?
Well i know my reason at why i hated it for the longest time is, for 1 it is mother fucking DnD and I don't think you can ever live up to that kind of hype, 2 they made a game very similar to guild wars, yes D&D online is much more enjoyable but uses the same game like play that GW has but charges you money which in my opinion was a bad move on their part.
Originally posted by zensaber they made a game very similar to guild wars, yes D&D online is much more enjoyable but uses the same game like play that GW has but charges you money which in my opinion was a bad move on their part.
I've played GW since beta and still play regularly. I just got into DDO and the only similarities I'm seeing are instancing (and the two games use instancing very differently) and the city for matchmaking, and trade. At least DDO has a real city, with real things to do in the city's areas, taverns, etc. GW's towns and outposts are literally just a 3D version of battle.net chat -- sell your vendor trash and get a group of players or AI.
Turbine could always have used GW's business model, you buy the dvd and play for free, and every time they make a module you have to buy that too... Just because they both use instancing (and they're not the only ones) doesn't automatically mean they must share the same business model. Even the Garriot brothers at NCSoft itself seem to disagree over ArenaNet's business model, Richard (of Ultima fame) being supportive of new ideas, while Robert recently called it a failed experiment.
Personally, without having been involved with DDO whatsoever until the past few weeks, I just figure Turbine was so busy getting contracts to build to MMORPGs with two major IPs (DDO and LOTRO) concurrently, that while DDO launched first, it was also trying many new things that players of other games have asked for, while LOTRO was taking even more time to get it polished and be a casual-friendly very traditional game. Now that both games are done, maybe DDO will get some much-needed attention.
Game companies will make money off you in some way. For GW that is with the add on packs. So there are 3 now so the game cost about $100 for the whole thing.
Now with DDO you get the game itself for as low as $15 (on amazon) and pay $15 a month for free modules that include new races and new levels. Most other games you would have to buy an x-pac for that kind of add on. So they opt for the slow steady income as opposed to the burst of income from an x-pac. Either way it about works out the same.
As others have said I'm enjoying DDO because it is so different from what I have been playing for the last 7 years.
Originally posted by Jarlo I'm enjoying DDO because it is so different from what I have been playing for the last 7 years.
Bingo! That's exactly what's drawing me to it right now. Out of all the MMOGs I've done, DDO gives me the most control over my avatar. Real-time interactive combat. Cool environments, I did the Fire Mountain (is that what it's called?) the other day, very very cool, I was smiling the whole damn time. It's not perfect, and you can count me among those who would love to see Eberron itself developed and not just instance everything, although just having a massive public wilderness instance would be a good step in the right direction. I'm having a blast, and that's all that matters to me.
Originally posted by lex-icon82 I personally think this game doesn't deserve all the hate it's getting... it's definetely a more casual mmo and there are many people who want that type of game. Don't bash it just because it doesn't fit in 'your' vision of a 'good' MMORPG.
I don't bash DD0 because it doesn't fit my vision of a good MMO. I bash DD0 because it's not even a half-ass vision of D&D.
I'd go in to more detail but lets be honest, we've all heard before.
I personally think this game doesn't deserve all the hate it's getting... it's definetely a more casual mmo and there are many people who want that type of game. Don't bash it just because it doesn't fit in 'your' vision of a 'good' MMORPG.
I don't bash DD0 because it doesn't fit my vision of a good MMO. I bash DD0 because it's not even a half-ass vision of D&D.
I'd go in to more detail but lets be honest, we've all heard before.
And that is what is really sad. Lots of games have to create their own system from scratch. This game, they were give the game which had been around for 30 years. This is what we got.
It is still my opinion that, should you want a non-pnp d&d adventure, you're better off with NWN1 & NWN2. The player-made worlds are astonishing and they tend to abide the original rules.
My opinion is not a popular one over here, but DDO got a lot of things right about DnD. Yes, it changed some important things, and made the world lot centric, which I don't like, but it's no denying it is DnD.
You people have to let go of old notions, DnD can evolve as well.
And don't get me started about nwn2, I swore not to return to that game, until they fix up the mess they created for spellcasters .. waste!
What everyone wanted was EQ/WoW/[insert other popular fantasy MMO here] wrapped up with the D&D ruleset. I could give a rat's ass about the D&D ruleset, personally, I'm enjoying DDO for what it is, not bashing it for what it isn't. If you feel DDO is a half-assed vision of D&D then by all means, give me a URL to download your whole-assed vision. Yeah, thought so... Bottom line, Wizards of the Coast has to approve *everything* in DDO. If they own the IP and they approve it, then apparently it's D&D too.
Sure: Bulders Gate 1 & 2, Icewind Dale 1 & 2, Neverwinter nights 1 & 2... to name a few. They all had multiplayer, and i have to say its some of the best D&D multiplayer i have seen yet. So you have to ask yourself, how turbine came up with their current DDO model when there are over 10 years worth of D&D games that have shown a near perfect multiplayer model. All it had to do was be translated into a 3D style game, but, the problem is they didnt do that. Why? Because they are selling the game on the name, not the gameplay. Which is sad. Everything was done for them, art, lore, history, rules... yet they ignored it and threw together a POS game. Oh it has its pros and cons, but in the end, what you have is not D&D but rather a dungeon runner styled game using the name to sell and not the game itself. At least they used the worst D&D campeign setting, I just hope they never are allowed to make another D&D game again.
You completely and utterly missed my point, not that I'm surprised by that. Nevertheless, I did play Baldur's Gate, and sorry, but it was Diablo meets Gauntlet with D&D rules, as far as I was concerned. Needless to say, I didn't bother completing the game, and it was enough to keep me away from the rest too. Never had any desire for the NWN series either, (the few screenshots I ever saw looked like nothing but dungeon crawling, which you accuse DDO of) but hey -- I'll bite -- I'm downloading the NWN1 demo as I write this, so I'm at least willing to see what the big deal is.
There's no perfect, all-encompassing game out there, that's impossible. When I think "D&D" (just because this is the DDO board) I'll guarantee I envision something completely different than you do. Quite frankly, way back when I actually did do D&D, the majority of other players did nothing but these dungeon-crawl-kill-everything-that-moves things each week. So did my own players until I graduated them to stories, campaigns, and *gasp* roleplaying. It honestly doesn't surprise me that Turbine created tons of dungeon crawl quests, since that's all a lot of players ever did in the P&P game. A lot, including me, left that primitive style behind long ago too. If DDO had a definitive storyline behind it, for example in a way like each Guild Wars campaign does, everyone would blast it for being linear.
I've already said multiple times that I couldn't care less about D&D. I truly couldn't. I'm playing DDO *right now* because of the gameplay -- specifically being able to control my avatar more fully than ever before, and enjoying being a caster for the first time ever. Do I think DDO is "perfect?" Of course not. Offhand I can think of tons of ways that I personally would improve the game. Would you or anyone else like my improvements? Who knows.
I'm sounding like a broken record, but everyone keeps proving my point that we bitch and moan about wanting innovation and something "new" in this genre. Turbine at least had the balls to try something new. Interactive realtime combat; full control of your avatar; individual personalized quests rather than "kill 10 rats/wolves/spiders/murlocs." What do we do? "ZOMG this is crap, why isn't it like XYZ Game? We want the same crap we've been playing, how dare you even attempt to be creative and try something new?"
We're also a fairly unforgiving bunch. Turbine is obviously putting more content into DDO (from everything I've read, even from the fanboys, content must have really been lacking for a long time?). But once a game releases and gets a bad rap, or if something happens midstream ala SWG, the reputation is trashed and we never allow it to recover. I suspect Vanguard is well down that path right now, in fact. Even if Sigil gets it up to par with what they told people it would deliver, will we allow it to live down the horrible launch? If Turbine came and said, look, we hear you, and we're willing to completely redesign (or at least partially redesign) DDO, giving you an open, freely explorable world, we'll put in the missing core classes, as well as the Eberron-specific stuff, etc. etc. blah blah yadda yadda. Would any of you give it a shot, or just stick to your guns that DDO sucks? My guess is the latter.
You completely and utterly missed my point, not that I'm surprised by that. Nevertheless, I did play Baldur's Gate, and sorry, but it was Diablo meets Gauntlet with D&D rules, as far as I was concerned. Needless to say, I didn't bother completing the game, and it was enough to keep me away from the rest too. Never had any desire for the NWN series either, (the few screenshots I ever saw looked like nothing but dungeon crawling, which you accuse DDO of) but hey -- I'll bite -- I'm downloading the NWN1 demo as I write this, so I'm at least willing to see what the big deal is. There's no perfect, all-encompassing game out there, that's impossible. When I think "D&D" (just because this is the DDO board) I'll guarantee I envision something completely different than you do. Quite frankly, way back when I actually did do D&D, the majority of other players did nothing but these dungeon-crawl-kill-everything-that-moves things each week. So did my own players until I graduated them to stories, campaigns, and *gasp* roleplaying. It honestly doesn't surprise me that Turbine created tons of dungeon crawl quests, since that's all a lot of players ever did in the P&P game. A lot, including me, left that primitive style behind long ago too. If DDO had a definitive storyline behind it, for example in a way like each Guild Wars campaign does, everyone would blast it for being linear. I've already said multiple times that I couldn't care less about D&D. I truly couldn't. I'm playing DDO *right now* because of the gameplay -- specifically being able to control my avatar more fully than ever before, and enjoying being a caster for the first time ever. Do I think DDO is "perfect?" Of course not. Offhand I can think of tons of ways that I personally would improve the game. Would you or anyone else like my improvements? Who knows. I'm sounding like a broken record, but everyone keeps proving my point that we bitch and moan about wanting innovation and something "new" in this genre. Turbine at least had the balls to try something new. Interactive realtime combat; full control of your avatar; individual personalized quests rather than "kill 10 rats/wolves/spiders/murlocs." What do we do? "ZOMG this is crap, why isn't it like XYZ Game? We want the same crap we've been playing, how dare you even attempt to be creative and try something new?" We're also a fairly unforgiving bunch. Turbine is obviously putting more content into DDO (from everything I've read, even from the fanboys, content must have really been lacking for a long time?). But once a game releases and gets a bad rap, or if something happens midstream ala SWG, the reputation is trashed and we never allow it to recover. I suspect Vanguard is well down that path right now, in fact. Even if Sigil gets it up to par with what they told people it would deliver, will we allow it to live down the horrible launch? If Turbine came and said, look, we hear you, and we're willing to completely redesign (or at least partially redesign) DDO, giving you an open, freely explorable world, we'll put in the missing core classes, as well as the Eberron-specific stuff, etc. etc. blah blah yadda yadda. Would any of you give it a shot, or just stick to your guns that DDO sucks? My guess is the latter.
LOL relax man. Your getting a bit uptight and finding insult where there was none. In fact, you seem to carry quite a big ego in how you word your reply, as if everyone other than you is some how retarded.
You said "If you feel DDO is a half-assed vision of D&D then by all means, give me a URL to download your whole-assed vision. Yeah, thought so..."
To be honest, I showed you quite a few games that used the D&D rule set the best. By your own admission you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the Bulders Gate series. I played all of the D&D games released by Black Isle before interplay cut them out. I also played Diabo 2 at the same time during the BG play. Cant forget Fallout 1-2. Bulders gate is nothing like diablo. Maybe you thought because you look down on your characters that its somehow diablo. lol. I hate to say it but you really should have given it a shot, theres so much to those games its not even funny. It feels like D&D to the core, just like the P&P. When you play online with friends, its even more so, Diablo 2 is a completely different styled game.
You might not give a crap about D&D, but unlike you, some of us might actually care about the franchise and "what" makes the franchise D&D. Its not just dungeons, its a list of things that make D&D what it is. Most of these are missing from DDO. I am not saying DDO is horrible, but I am saying its not D&D. Its selling the product off the franchise its self, not the name. TSR would be ashamed to see this product. And the world of Eberon was created by some nerd in his basement for a stupid contest that wizards of the coast held. Thats what DDO is, a story based off some guys fantasy while sitting in his basement waiting for his mom to come home.
I agree that the combat is a nice touch for DDO, and i hope it shows up in many more games but a game is usually made up of more than one good feature, if its not, then it becomes half-assed.
If you do try NWN, i suggest the second one, not the first. The graphics and art direction of the first one has turned many people off even though its core gameplay is good. The second is more appealing visually and has a higher conceptualized art style (which is also important for current D&D).
Anyways, I would like to finish by asking you nicely to think about how you talk to others. Perhaps its time to get off that high horse your on lest people assume you're an arrogant arse.
Ok, I've installed the NWN demo and... I can tell I probably won't like it already, but I think it's too old for my system. I click somewhere and my avatar instantly appears there, no walking. Sometimes I click in a room and he appears in black space outside the "game zone/room" then the game catches up and pops to wherever it should be. The NPCs are also jerking rather quickly, so I'm guessing NWN (or at least the demo) isn't able to scale to today's faster dual core CPU's because this is pretty much unplayable.
Update: Yeah, can't play this at all. I've seen screen shots of NWN2 and it looks more appealing, having an actual environment and a larger scale, but it also looks way old-school in the mechanics. Same reason I don't want a timesink MMO this summer, there's no way a timesink single-player RPG (with multiplayer features, yes) would hold my attention or interest. I'd give it a shot, but there's no demo.
When I said "If you feel DDO is a half-assed vision of D&D then by all means, give me a URL to download your whole-assed vision," I meant just that. Not "tell me other games using the D&D ruleset that you feel did it better." Just for the record, I'm using "you" in the general term, not you personally. I learned a long time ago, in music, to stop saying "oh, so-and-so sucks" unless I was also willing to get up on stage in front of people, perform, and be judged myself. Basically my comment was another way of saying "so go program your vision and lets see it." I won't say an author sucks just because a novel wasn't to my liking, unless I publish my own novel and feel I have a leg to stand on. I won't say a game sucks or a dev studio sucks unless I develop my own and get it published. I do try and say "in my opinion" or "it's not for me, but" and whereas most forum trolls are just "this sucks period, my word is law, obey me or die n00b." (Again, not accusing you personally of this...) And that (to me) is far more arrogant than anything I've said. I'm opinionated. So is everyone else. And we all know what they say about opinions... lol.
Maybe Baldur's Gate wasn't Diablo to you (this time yes, you, lol), it was to me *in the sense* that while it was absolutely gorgeous and smooth (something Diablo certainly isn't guilty of lol) it was a hack and slasher. Maybe it had D&D classes, monsters, and combat mechanisms, but *to me* it was just a hack and slasher nonetheless. Oh wait, I've already said how many P&P players never get beyond the hack and slash phase, didn't I... That's why those games don't appeal to me, any more than the Korean grindfest MMOGs do (I have a hard time calling them RPGs).
I know Bioware has made great strides in the RPG genre, especially over the (sorry guys) old grindfest (I don't care how gorgeous the cutscenes are) Final Fantasy-esque style games. Hell, Knights of the Old Republic? C'mon, sheer genius, and revolutionary! I swore I'd never touch another single player RPG again but Mass Effect has me drooling in anticipation.
Ok, let me revise my D&D stance: I played in high school. I have no intention of ever buying any d20 rulebook. Ever. I'm not into it anymore. I miss some aspects of it, some things just cannot be captured in an MMORPG. (And vice-versa) That said, every MMORPG I've played, I've rolled a caster/wizard/mage character since my first-ever "main" D&D character was one. From playing that character, plus reading various fantasy novels and series, both original and D&D-related, I have images and scenes in my mind about how casting and magic should look and feel. To date, DDO is the only one that made me sit up and say "whoah! Did that actually just do what I've had in my mind all these years?" So I guess I do care after all in a few ways, ranging from nostalgia over my own experiences with my characters, to respect for the IP (it's been around for 30 years, it meant something to me and others at one point, and means something to others now) even if it's something I'm no longer involved or interested in. That said, while Baldur's Gate may have been the first time I felt I was actually seeing true D&D monsters in a game "ooh look, I just killed a kobold! Oooh look, a beholder! Hey there's one of those damn slime things, I remember those from the books!" it didn't feel anything whatsoever like "playing D&D" to me. But the Baldur's Gate series, and the NWN series, among others, are particular visions or means of bringing the D&D ruleset to a particular gameplay experience and style. And DDO has done the same thing. It's not for everyone, just like WoW isn't for everyone, or Vanguard or any other. I try, really I try, to be able to appreciate new ideas and innovation. Turbine could (sure, they probably should) have done a tried and true MMORPG with the D&D rules/classes. They had an idea to try and actually accomplish some of the things we players had been whining for, such as the combat system. Sure, a few things here and there may have had to change going from turn-based to real-time, but again I say if WotC approves (and Turbine has to get their approval for everything) then it's D&D. It might not be what you or I would do in P&P if we were DMing, not at all. But I'll at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they're making an effort to get some content recently. But "D&D" isn't what I like about DDO. Also for the record, when I decided to go ahead and subscribe to DDO, it will be on a more casual basis. Knowing how much work must go into building an instance for every quest in the game, I'd imagine with a good guild/PUG I could possibly burn through the content pretty quick if I played hardcore. DDO doesn't strike me as a hardcore player's game to begin with, so I plan on getting enjoyment out of it now and learning the system and finding which class I want to use as a main character. Then I'll probably do like CoH: sub for a month or two, unsub for a few, repeat. I don't want a hardcore timesink game over the summer, that's for certain.
How and why Eberron was created, ok this time I actually don't care. It's something new and different, I'm liking the little I know of it enough to get an Eberron novel from Amazon (should arrive any day now). I'd rather read a story that I can hopefully get into and enjoy than buy a d20 Eberron reference book that I'll never use. I do hope (oh Gods I hope) that it's of better quality than the Rifts novels... From what I can tell, WotC likes the setting, so that's a bonus. Like thousands of other DMs before and after me, I created an entire world, mythos, theology, etc. for my own campaign. I owned all the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and even the old Greyhawk stuff. I love Forgotten Realms, and oh.my.gawd if Turbine (yes, Turbine) is ever allowed to expand with the D&D IP and make a Dragonlance MMORPG I'm there. The engine can do it, they've already proven that with AC2, DDO, and now LOTRO, and Turbine does have a sense of storytelling. Taking it a step further with my actions defining my alignment rather than forcing me to stick to what I rolled (at least the old Dragonlance AD&D book did that, no idea what the d20 stuff of today does) and aerial mounted dragon combat, fighting (becoming?) the undead knights, ah... yes, I would SO be there.
Well, in short, I won't agree with any of you two particularly, but I'll spread it in different topics.
First about who is allowed to criticize anything: It doesn't take a developer to tell bad game design I shall criticize anyone who steps on the stage and sucks in comparison to 1. what they marketed their song to be 2. to what the other with the same resources achieved 3 to what their song's potential was. I don't have to study music to claim, that Pink Floyd is quality music, while 50 cent makes bullshit (music?) purely for the money.
So about point 1: DDO didn't promise to be like nwn series, or anything, they said it would focus on two things : combat and character development. They achieved everything they promised in this regard. Now, if you feel combat is not DnD, then put your finger on the specific issue, and I will gladly address it. Don't say it doesn't fell like it or other such jokes.
2: since there were no mmos comparable released in the same era, I will skip this part.
3: their design choices limited their potential, but after giving it a lot of thought, I stand by their choices, we can also discuss this in detail, if so you chose to.
Time now to say, I played BG, NWN, and the weaker IWD (BG= Baldur's gate, nothing to do with boulders). The goal and concept of games like nwn and DDO are very different. The multiplayer component of nwn was not successful from the get go, I remember the start, and it was slower than the advancement of nwn2's multiplayer evolution. It took a lot of creativity from third party creators of modules, and those worlds were not intended for massive player load, only 64 people. Things change on that scale, you can have an open world with a max of 64 people, with respawning, etc, whilst the very core design choices of DDO necessit instances.
DnD accuracy ... well, let me tell you, DDO has got a lot of spells right, which are crooked in nwn, and vice versa. None is more limiting, than the other. Either way, it is WotC who have credibility (and only them) deciding what is DnD, and what is not. They stated DDO is DnD, so who are you to contradict them, what makes you an expert of DnD? ... right! DnD changed a lot during its evolution, it changed radically many times, as well as while transition in to games. That's great about DnD, it can evolve with time, it's an adaptable system, as DDO (among others) clearly prove this!
The only question is, why some of you can't think out of the box? And probably the inability to accept a game's evolution (this case DnD) is why the people running WotC are running Wizards, and you and I are here on this forum talking unimportant shit about the work WotC does.
Why does VG flops for an example, because Brad didn't have the talent (I would say lost, but I stand firm that he never had it) to accept the natural evolution of gaming. Want that to happen to your beloved DnD? I say NO! Go go evolution! Evolution doesn't mean dumbing down, as DDO has the most complex combat out there.
Closure:
Ofcourse DDO has a lot of faults, like lack of content, but everyone, even the blind, can see that they are constantly adding new content, pretty fast as well, considering the quality of Dungeons.
Why most people don't like MMOs? They are uncapable to adapt fast ... and I kid you not, gaming does that to people. Us gamers are among the unwisest categories of them all.
<blockquote><i>Originally posted by Talyn</i> <br><b><p>Turbine at least had the balls to try something new. Interactive realtime combat; full control of your avatar; individual personalized quests rather than "kill 10 rats/wolves/spiders/murlocs." What do we do? "ZOMG this is crap, why isn't it like XYZ Game? We want the same crap we've been playing, how dare you even attempt to be creative and try something new?"<br></p></b></blockquote>
Pretty much sums up a lot of people right there. It's like they either want WoW with 3.5 rules, or they want NWN 3.
I don't know what D&D other people play, but most of the RPGA modules are for the most part "kick in the door and roll initiative" type of play, similar to DDO. Particularly at conventions, you're not sitting around gawking and wasting time micromanaging your travelling to get to a dungeon or wherever.
I really don't know what much more people want/expect out of DDO other than maybe some big open fields where they can grind on "random" monsters for hour after hour.
I've played pretty much every D&D game. DDO is different. For the most part, that's a good thing. I still don't like what they did with certain things, but hey. I don't know why people bring up Neverwinter Nights 2 as if it's some Holy Grail of D&D. It's not. Yeah, it gets the rules exactly right. Who cares. It's cumbersome and slow. Even reviews and fans of NWN1 say this. I felt like I was playing a slow-paced RTS game. DDO is fast-paced "kick in the door and roll initiative" action, and if you don't like that kind of thing, fine, but it doesn't mean it's a bad game.
I am fortunate to be able to play PnP D&D pretty much every week with friends. I didn't think I'd like DDO at all, but the real-time combat grew on me, and the game has come a long way since beta. It's a very good game if you like quick action and lots of team work. All the "solo" people who complain are the worst. What the hell are you doing playing D&D in the first place if you like soloing so much?
And everybody give it up on the "lack of content" already. They've added so much to the game since the release. No one is flying through DDO content unless they are powerleveling. Meanwhile, go tell me how many decent instances are in WoW, especially before the $40 expansion. How many times does the average person run Scarlet Monastary again? Yeah.
First about who is allowed to criticize anything: It doesn't take a developer to tell bad game design I shall criticize anyone who steps on the stage and sucks in comparison to 1. what they marketed their song to be 2. to what the other with the same resources achieved 3 to what their song's potential was. I don't have to study music to claim, that Pink Floyd is quality music, while 50 cent makes bullshit (music?) purely for the money.
Precisely why I made the point I did. Criticism is fine, though constructive criticism is better. You can say you don't like 50 Cent because his music or genre isn't for you. Pink Floyd apparently is. I can take or leave Pink Floyd myself, and I don't like Hip Hop or Rap, so I'll leave 50 Cent every time, but I won't say "50 Cent sucks" as a blanket statement as if my opinion should be laid out as law and everyone must agree with me. It's not for me, but it is for millions of others, and that's great. Diversity makes the world go 'round.
Why does VG flops for an example, because Brad didn't have the talent (I would say lost, but I stand firm that he never had it) to accept the natural evolution of gaming.
Does Brad McQuaid have a lack of talent? Or was he and his team so caught up in their vision of what either they wanted themselves, or what we, the players, wanted that they didn't see their vision was (perhaps) taking them down the wrong path? After all, look how much we've been screaming "we hate instances! we want persistence! we want hardcore! we want travel to mean something! we're tired of cartoon graphics!" And Brad gave us exactly what we asked for. What did we do? We instantly remembered why we hated persistence, long travel times, hardcore grinding, etc. I won't get into the performance issues, because Brad admits VG was released too early. I'll reserve judgment on that in 6 months or so when the game is actually ready for release.
For me, DDO is a much better game than WoW or LOTRO in terms of game mechanics. Combat is much better than either of those games, the puzzle element to quests is great, levelling and character classes are much better and show a lot more thought.
Unfortunately, it's everything outside of the mechanics where DDO fails. In WoW you can travel an entire planet and even beyond in the expansions. You can go to deserts, forests, jungles, arctic wastes and swamps as well as the sheer variety of the various cities. In LOTRO the lore and the way you feel part of it is a big selling point.
DDO just doesn't offer those levels of variety and immersion unfortunately. I think a lot of the 'hate' towards DDO is more to do with the fact it could have been a great game but is just full of wasted opportunities that frustrate a lot of MMO fans.
For me, DDO is a much better game than WoW or LOTRO in terms of game mechanics. Combat is much better than either of those games, the puzzle element to quests is great, levelling and character classes are much better and show a lot more thought.
Unfortunately, it's everything outside of the mechanics where DDO fails. In WoW you can travel an entire planet and even beyond in the expansions. You can go to deserts, forests, jungles, arctic wastes and swamps as well as the sheer variety of the various cities. In LOTRO the lore and the way you feel part of it is a big selling point.
DDO just doesn't offer those levels of variety and immersion unfortunately. I think a lot of the 'hate' towards DDO is more to do with the fact it could have been a great game but is just full of wasted opportunities that frustrate a lot of MMO fans.
While i certainly do not agree that its a better game than WoW, but I can agree that the franchise options gave the game a lot of potential to kick WoWs arse.
I agree completely with your second statement. In the end though, both LOTRO (which i cant stand) and DDO share one big problem. The game engine. Turbine needs to give up on it and make a new one for current gen gaming. This is one of their major setbacks.
People like TheFranchise fail to realize that people didnt want a NWN3. He is missing the point copletely. People like me are bringing up games like NWN and BG, ID, Temple of elemental evil, pool of radiance...ect because they use they set the standards and show how much the D&D rule set can be used in a game. They set the platform for whats needed in a D&D game.
Part of that is as you mentioned, locations. Traveling, and exploring. You have explore to find the dugeon, then you have to explore the dungeon. You might walk into a tavern and have dialog with patrons, or a battle. DDO is restricted to rediculous number of dungeons riddled throughout the city. Thats kinda lame. Walk 2 feet, and you find a dungeon, walk another 2 feet and you find another, turn left and walk a few feet, oh lookie another dungeon. They should have called it the "city where everything is a freakin dungeon".
Lets look at classes. They dont even have druids. A D&D game uses a wide selection of races and classes, half breeds, sub races..ect In DDO you are given a more limited selection than you get in WoW. Thats not good. D&D is the king when it comes to races and classes. DDO does not have this.
They also threw out most of the rules, the leveling up, character progression. There is so much that games like NWN, Bulders Gate and the like, show us as gamers. They show that there can be D&D in a video game, its only left to the developers to not stray from the path. The two good things about DDO is the live combat is refreshing, though (it could use some work) and the dungeons are nicely hand made. Thats about it, and unfortunately thats not enough.
People dont want a NWN3 or another ice wind dale, but they do want a MMORPG that uses the ruleset and D&D features/strengths within the game itself. What people got when they played DDO was a big dissapointment as far as D&D goes. Im sure we can agree that "some" dungeons are a lot of fun, but thats not enough in my opinion to make the game great.
I dunno, I rather like the Turbine engine, it can crank out some gorgeous graphics and effects. Personally, I do wish they'd work on getting more proactive pre-caching so I don't make a fast turn and have my brand-new dual core come to its knees, choking for a few seconds. Aside from that, I really like the engine; it gets the job done and it's in-house so they can work on it all they want and port features back and forth from DDO to LOTRO.
Now, if I had any say-so whatsoever, I'd keep the current "personalized" dungeon for quests, but also open up the world so we can explore. I'm an explorer by nature, it's what I spend a lot of time doing in any game. Hell, I don't bother playing RTS' multiplayer because I'll get wiped out because I'm too busy checking things out while the other guys are busy building bases and armies. But I think a nice balance of having a wide-open world of Eberron to explore, with "live" NPC's in the cities and wilderness giving "normal" quests and making the world feel alive, while keeping the whole dungeon/quest/instance thing going too. Some could be in new cities, some could be found in the wild... all kinds of possibilities, that hopefully would attract new (and old) players while not driving away the existing players who love DDO as it is. That'd be a key factor right there -- there are thousands subscribing to the current DDO, would they want to see it totally redesigned before their eyes? Me, I'd rather that happen than see a DDO2 with those features. It's already got the basics, the ruleset, and we've seen from AC2 and LOTRO the engine does a beautiful job with huge public wilderness areas. It would also give DDO a chance to have some ongoing story arcs like AC1/2 and LOTRO do. (I'm not high enough level in DDO to do any of the modules yet, is there a story to the whole thing or just new content with no story?)
Comments
I did *not* play in beta, never had any desire to even try DDO until a couple weeks ago. Maybe I just lucked out that the teams are able to start putting some serious work into DDO now that LOTRO is about done, or maybe I've just played so many other MMORPGs that I'm able to appreciate that DDO is something totally different than the rest.
I love the combat, though I do notice the melee guys seem a bit "click happy" swinging away after the mobs are dead. I'm playing a caster (wizard) since DDO is so far the only MMOG I've played that comes close to what I have imagined when reading books etc. WoW was just about the worst, in contrast. I saw mages do some amazingly cool things, but when I rolled one myself I absolutely hated playing the class. I've done the "tab attack" stand in place and play whack-a-mole on so many other titles (and will likely have to do it in many more to come) that I'm totally digging having complete control for once. Block? Dodge? Tumble? Or hey, how about just saying "oh, this guy just fired an arrow at me. How about I just move a little bit so it misses me." Can't do that in any other game, because the mobs are "tab locked" onto you just like you "tab lock" onto them.
"They" (they being Turbine) did not invent the setting. I actually don't mind it, though a free world Dragonlance MMORPG would kick so much ass it's not funny, especially if we had dragon combat and your actions determine your alignment shifts. Just like with the gameplay itself, they chose D&D's newest setting, something brand new and different. Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms (FR has some sweet novels though) have been around forever and other than novels really don't interest me personally as far as building a game in them.
I'm not a D&D fan or player so take that for whatever it's worth...
WotC does approve everything Turbine puts in the live game though, so again while I don't play the PnP game at all, I've never touched a d20 game and never plan to, if the owners of the IP approve it, then it must be good enough.
Does AD&D even exist anymore? (That's what I did play when I did PnP) or is everything just the d20 "D&D"?
I've played GW since beta and still play regularly. I just got into DDO and the only similarities I'm seeing are instancing (and the two games use instancing very differently) and the city for matchmaking, and trade. At least DDO has a real city, with real things to do in the city's areas, taverns, etc. GW's towns and outposts are literally just a 3D version of battle.net chat -- sell your vendor trash and get a group of players or AI.
Turbine could always have used GW's business model, you buy the dvd and play for free, and every time they make a module you have to buy that too... Just because they both use instancing (and they're not the only ones) doesn't automatically mean they must share the same business model. Even the Garriot brothers at NCSoft itself seem to disagree over ArenaNet's business model, Richard (of Ultima fame) being supportive of new ideas, while Robert recently called it a failed experiment.
Personally, without having been involved with DDO whatsoever until the past few weeks, I just figure Turbine was so busy getting contracts to build to MMORPGs with two major IPs (DDO and LOTRO) concurrently, that while DDO launched first, it was also trying many new things that players of other games have asked for, while LOTRO was taking even more time to get it polished and be a casual-friendly very traditional game. Now that both games are done, maybe DDO will get some much-needed attention.
Game companies will make money off you in some way. For GW that is with the add on packs. So there are 3 now so the game cost about $100 for the whole thing.
Now with DDO you get the game itself for as low as $15 (on amazon) and pay $15 a month for free modules that include new races and new levels. Most other games you would have to buy an x-pac for that kind of add on. So they opt for the slow steady income as opposed to the burst of income from an x-pac. Either way it about works out the same.
As others have said I'm enjoying DDO because it is so different from what I have been playing for the last 7 years.
Bingo! That's exactly what's drawing me to it right now. Out of all the MMOGs I've done, DDO gives me the most control over my avatar. Real-time interactive combat. Cool environments, I did the Fire Mountain (is that what it's called?) the other day, very very cool, I was smiling the whole damn time. It's not perfect, and you can count me among those who would love to see Eberron itself developed and not just instance everything, although just having a massive public wilderness instance would be a good step in the right direction. I'm having a blast, and that's all that matters to me.
I don't bash DD0 because it doesn't fit my vision of a good MMO. I bash DD0 because it's not even a half-ass vision of D&D.
I'd go in to more detail but lets be honest, we've all heard before.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
I don't bash DD0 because it doesn't fit my vision of a good MMO. I bash DD0 because it's not even a half-ass vision of D&D.
I'd go in to more detail but lets be honest, we've all heard before.
And that is what is really sad. Lots of games have to create their own system from scratch. This game, they were give the game which had been around for 30 years. This is what we got.
You people have to let go of old notions, DnD can evolve as well.
And don't get me started about nwn2, I swore not to return to that game, until they fix up the mess they created for spellcasters .. waste!
What everyone wanted was EQ/WoW/[insert other popular fantasy MMO here] wrapped up with the D&D ruleset.
I could give a rat's ass about the D&D ruleset, personally, I'm enjoying DDO for what it is, not bashing it for what it isn't.
If you feel DDO is a half-assed vision of D&D then by all means, give me a URL to download your whole-assed vision. Yeah, thought so...
Bottom line, Wizards of the Coast has to approve *everything* in DDO. If they own the IP and they approve it, then apparently it's D&D too.
You completely and utterly missed my point, not that I'm surprised by that. Nevertheless, I did play Baldur's Gate, and sorry, but it was Diablo meets Gauntlet with D&D rules, as far as I was concerned. Needless to say, I didn't bother completing the game, and it was enough to keep me away from the rest too. Never had any desire for the NWN series either, (the few screenshots I ever saw looked like nothing but dungeon crawling, which you accuse DDO of) but hey -- I'll bite -- I'm downloading the NWN1 demo as I write this, so I'm at least willing to see what the big deal is.
There's no perfect, all-encompassing game out there, that's impossible. When I think "D&D" (just because this is the DDO board) I'll guarantee I envision something completely different than you do. Quite frankly, way back when I actually did do D&D, the majority of other players did nothing but these dungeon-crawl-kill-everything-that-moves things each week. So did my own players until I graduated them to stories, campaigns, and *gasp* roleplaying. It honestly doesn't surprise me that Turbine created tons of dungeon crawl quests, since that's all a lot of players ever did in the P&P game. A lot, including me, left that primitive style behind long ago too. If DDO had a definitive storyline behind it, for example in a way like each Guild Wars campaign does, everyone would blast it for being linear.
I've already said multiple times that I couldn't care less about D&D. I truly couldn't. I'm playing DDO *right now* because of the gameplay -- specifically being able to control my avatar more fully than ever before, and enjoying being a caster for the first time ever. Do I think DDO is "perfect?" Of course not. Offhand I can think of tons of ways that I personally would improve the game. Would you or anyone else like my improvements? Who knows.
I'm sounding like a broken record, but everyone keeps proving my point that we bitch and moan about wanting innovation and something "new" in this genre. Turbine at least had the balls to try something new. Interactive realtime combat; full control of your avatar; individual personalized quests rather than "kill 10 rats/wolves/spiders/murlocs." What do we do? "ZOMG this is crap, why isn't it like XYZ Game? We want the same crap we've been playing, how dare you even attempt to be creative and try something new?"
We're also a fairly unforgiving bunch. Turbine is obviously putting more content into DDO (from everything I've read, even from the fanboys, content must have really been lacking for a long time?). But once a game releases and gets a bad rap, or if something happens midstream ala SWG, the reputation is trashed and we never allow it to recover. I suspect Vanguard is well down that path right now, in fact. Even if Sigil gets it up to par with what they told people it would deliver, will we allow it to live down the horrible launch? If Turbine came and said, look, we hear you, and we're willing to completely redesign (or at least partially redesign) DDO, giving you an open, freely explorable world, we'll put in the missing core classes, as well as the Eberron-specific stuff, etc. etc. blah blah yadda yadda. Would any of you give it a shot, or just stick to your guns that DDO sucks? My guess is the latter.
You said "If you feel DDO is a half-assed vision of D&D then by all means, give me a URL to download your whole-assed vision. Yeah, thought so..."
To be honest, I showed you quite a few games that used the D&D rule set the best. By your own admission you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the Bulders Gate series. I played all of the D&D games released by Black Isle before interplay cut them out. I also played Diabo 2 at the same time during the BG play. Cant forget Fallout 1-2. Bulders gate is nothing like diablo. Maybe you thought because you look down on your characters that its somehow diablo. lol. I hate to say it but you really should have given it a shot, theres so much to those games its not even funny. It feels like D&D to the core, just like the P&P. When you play online with friends, its even more so, Diablo 2 is a completely different styled game.
You might not give a crap about D&D, but unlike you, some of us might actually care about the franchise and "what" makes the franchise D&D. Its not just dungeons, its a list of things that make D&D what it is. Most of these are missing from DDO. I am not saying DDO is horrible, but I am saying its not D&D. Its selling the product off the franchise its self, not the name. TSR would be ashamed to see this product. And the world of Eberon was created by some nerd in his basement for a stupid contest that wizards of the coast held. Thats what DDO is, a story based off some guys fantasy while sitting in his basement waiting for his mom to come home.
I agree that the combat is a nice touch for DDO, and i hope it shows up in many more games but a game is usually made up of more than one good feature, if its not, then it becomes half-assed.
If you do try NWN, i suggest the second one, not the first. The graphics and art direction of the first one has turned many people off even though its core gameplay is good. The second is more appealing visually and has a higher conceptualized art style (which is also important for current D&D).
Anyways, I would like to finish by asking you nicely to think about how you talk to others. Perhaps its time to get off that high horse your on lest people assume you're an arrogant arse.
Ok, I've installed the NWN demo and... I can tell I probably won't like it already, but I think it's too old for my system. I click somewhere and my avatar instantly appears there, no walking. Sometimes I click in a room and he appears in black space outside the "game zone/room" then the game catches up and pops to wherever it should be. The NPCs are also jerking rather quickly, so I'm guessing NWN (or at least the demo) isn't able to scale to today's faster dual core CPU's because this is pretty much unplayable.
Update: Yeah, can't play this at all. I've seen screen shots of NWN2 and it looks more appealing, having an actual environment and a larger scale, but it also looks way old-school in the mechanics. Same reason I don't want a timesink MMO this summer, there's no way a timesink single-player RPG (with multiplayer features, yes) would hold my attention or interest. I'd give it a shot, but there's no demo.
When I said "If you feel DDO is a half-assed vision of D&D then by all means, give me a URL to download your whole-assed vision," I meant just that. Not "tell me other games using the D&D ruleset that you feel did it better." Just for the record, I'm using "you" in the general term, not you personally. I learned a long time ago, in music, to stop saying "oh, so-and-so sucks" unless I was also willing to get up on stage in front of people, perform, and be judged myself. Basically my comment was another way of saying "so go program your vision and lets see it." I won't say an author sucks just because a novel wasn't to my liking, unless I publish my own novel and feel I have a leg to stand on. I won't say a game sucks or a dev studio sucks unless I develop my own and get it published. I do try and say "in my opinion" or "it's not for me, but" and whereas most forum trolls are just "this sucks period, my word is law, obey me or die n00b." (Again, not accusing you personally of this...) And that (to me) is far more arrogant than anything I've said. I'm opinionated. So is everyone else. And we all know what they say about opinions... lol.
Maybe Baldur's Gate wasn't Diablo to you (this time yes, you, lol), it was to me *in the sense* that while it was absolutely gorgeous and smooth (something Diablo certainly isn't guilty of lol) it was a hack and slasher. Maybe it had D&D classes, monsters, and combat mechanisms, but *to me* it was just a hack and slasher nonetheless. Oh wait, I've already said how many P&P players never get beyond the hack and slash phase, didn't I... That's why those games don't appeal to me, any more than the Korean grindfest MMOGs do (I have a hard time calling them RPGs).
I know Bioware has made great strides in the RPG genre, especially over the (sorry guys) old grindfest (I don't care how gorgeous the cutscenes are) Final Fantasy-esque style games. Hell, Knights of the Old Republic? C'mon, sheer genius, and revolutionary! I swore I'd never touch another single player RPG again but Mass Effect has me drooling in anticipation.
Ok, let me revise my D&D stance: I played in high school. I have no intention of ever buying any d20 rulebook. Ever. I'm not into it anymore. I miss some aspects of it, some things just cannot be captured in an MMORPG. (And vice-versa) That said, every MMORPG I've played, I've rolled a caster/wizard/mage character since my first-ever "main" D&D character was one. From playing that character, plus reading various fantasy novels and series, both original and D&D-related, I have images and scenes in my mind about how casting and magic should look and feel. To date, DDO is the only one that made me sit up and say "whoah! Did that actually just do what I've had in my mind all these years?" So I guess I do care after all in a few ways, ranging from nostalgia over my own experiences with my characters, to respect for the IP (it's been around for 30 years, it meant something to me and others at one point, and means something to others now) even if it's something I'm no longer involved or interested in. That said, while Baldur's Gate may have been the first time I felt I was actually seeing true D&D monsters in a game "ooh look, I just killed a kobold! Oooh look, a beholder! Hey there's one of those damn slime things, I remember those from the books!" it didn't feel anything whatsoever like "playing D&D" to me. But the Baldur's Gate series, and the NWN series, among others, are particular visions or means of bringing the D&D ruleset to a particular gameplay experience and style. And DDO has done the same thing. It's not for everyone, just like WoW isn't for everyone, or Vanguard or any other. I try, really I try, to be able to appreciate new ideas and innovation. Turbine could (sure, they probably should) have done a tried and true MMORPG with the D&D rules/classes. They had an idea to try and actually accomplish some of the things we players had been whining for, such as the combat system. Sure, a few things here and there may have had to change going from turn-based to real-time, but again I say if WotC approves (and Turbine has to get their approval for everything) then it's D&D. It might not be what you or I would do in P&P if we were DMing, not at all. But I'll at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they're making an effort to get some content recently. But "D&D" isn't what I like about DDO. Also for the record, when I decided to go ahead and subscribe to DDO, it will be on a more casual basis. Knowing how much work must go into building an instance for every quest in the game, I'd imagine with a good guild/PUG I could possibly burn through the content pretty quick if I played hardcore. DDO doesn't strike me as a hardcore player's game to begin with, so I plan on getting enjoyment out of it now and learning the system and finding which class I want to use as a main character. Then I'll probably do like CoH: sub for a month or two, unsub for a few, repeat. I don't want a hardcore timesink game over the summer, that's for certain.
How and why Eberron was created, ok this time I actually don't care. It's something new and different, I'm liking the little I know of it enough to get an Eberron novel from Amazon (should arrive any day now). I'd rather read a story that I can hopefully get into and enjoy than buy a d20 Eberron reference book that I'll never use. I do hope (oh Gods I hope) that it's of better quality than the Rifts novels... From what I can tell, WotC likes the setting, so that's a bonus. Like thousands of other DMs before and after me, I created an entire world, mythos, theology, etc. for my own campaign. I owned all the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and even the old Greyhawk stuff. I love Forgotten Realms, and oh.my.gawd if Turbine (yes, Turbine) is ever allowed to expand with the D&D IP and make a Dragonlance MMORPG I'm there. The engine can do it, they've already proven that with AC2, DDO, and now LOTRO, and Turbine does have a sense of storytelling. Taking it a step further with my actions defining my alignment rather than forcing me to stick to what I rolled (at least the old Dragonlance AD&D book did that, no idea what the d20 stuff of today does) and aerial mounted dragon combat, fighting (becoming?) the undead knights, ah... yes, I would SO be there.
First about who is allowed to criticize anything: It doesn't take a developer to tell bad game design I shall criticize anyone who steps on the stage and sucks in comparison to 1. what they marketed their song to be 2. to what the other with the same resources achieved 3 to what their song's potential was. I don't have to study music to claim, that Pink Floyd is quality music, while 50 cent makes bullshit (music?) purely for the money.
So about point 1: DDO didn't promise to be like nwn series, or anything, they said it would focus on two things : combat and character development. They achieved everything they promised in this regard. Now, if you feel combat is not DnD, then put your finger on the specific issue, and I will gladly address it. Don't say it doesn't fell like it or other such jokes.
2: since there were no mmos comparable released in the same era, I will skip this part.
3: their design choices limited their potential, but after giving it a lot of thought, I stand by their choices, we can also discuss this in detail, if so you chose to.
Time now to say, I played BG, NWN, and the weaker IWD (BG= Baldur's gate, nothing to do with boulders). The goal and concept of games like nwn and DDO are very different. The multiplayer component of nwn was not successful from the get go, I remember the start, and it was slower than the advancement of nwn2's multiplayer evolution. It took a lot of creativity from third party creators of modules, and those worlds were not intended for massive player load, only 64 people. Things change on that scale, you can have an open world with a max of 64 people, with respawning, etc, whilst the very core design choices of DDO necessit instances.
DnD accuracy ... well, let me tell you, DDO has got a lot of spells right, which are crooked in nwn, and vice versa. None is more limiting, than the other. Either way, it is WotC who have credibility (and only them) deciding what is DnD, and what is not. They stated DDO is DnD, so who are you to contradict them, what makes you an expert of DnD? ... right! DnD changed a lot during its evolution, it changed radically many times, as well as while transition in to games. That's great about DnD, it can evolve with time, it's an adaptable system, as DDO (among others) clearly prove this!
The only question is, why some of you can't think out of the box? And probably the inability to accept a game's evolution (this case DnD) is why the people running WotC are running Wizards, and you and I are here on this forum talking unimportant shit about the work WotC does.
Why does VG flops for an example, because Brad didn't have the talent (I would say lost, but I stand firm that he never had it) to accept the natural evolution of gaming. Want that to happen to your beloved DnD? I say NO! Go go evolution! Evolution doesn't mean dumbing down, as DDO has the most complex combat out there.
Closure:
Ofcourse DDO has a lot of faults, like lack of content, but everyone, even the blind, can see that they are constantly adding new content, pretty fast as well, considering the quality of Dungeons.
Why most people don't like MMOs? They are uncapable to adapt fast ... and I kid you not, gaming does that to people. Us gamers are among the unwisest categories of them all.
<blockquote><i>Originally posted by Talyn</i>
<br><b><p>Turbine at least had the balls to try something new. Interactive realtime combat; full control of your avatar; individual personalized quests rather than "kill 10 rats/wolves/spiders/murlocs." What do we do? "ZOMG this is crap, why isn't it like XYZ Game? We want the same crap we've been playing, how dare you even attempt to be creative and try something new?"<br></p></b></blockquote>
Pretty much sums up a lot of people right there. It's like they either want WoW with 3.5 rules, or they want NWN 3.
I don't know what D&D other people play, but most of the RPGA modules are for the most part "kick in the door and roll initiative" type of play, similar to DDO. Particularly at conventions, you're not sitting around gawking and wasting time micromanaging your travelling to get to a dungeon or wherever.
I really don't know what much more people want/expect out of DDO other than maybe some big open fields where they can grind on "random" monsters for hour after hour.
I've played pretty much every D&D game. DDO is different. For the most part, that's a good thing. I still don't like what they did with certain things, but hey. I don't know why people bring up Neverwinter Nights 2 as if it's some Holy Grail of D&D. It's not. Yeah, it gets the rules exactly right. Who cares. It's cumbersome and slow. Even reviews and fans of NWN1 say this. I felt like I was playing a slow-paced RTS game. DDO is fast-paced "kick in the door and roll initiative" action, and if you don't like that kind of thing, fine, but it doesn't mean it's a bad game.
I am fortunate to be able to play PnP D&D pretty much every week with friends. I didn't think I'd like DDO at all, but the real-time combat grew on me, and the game has come a long way since beta. It's a very good game if you like quick action and lots of team work. All the "solo" people who complain are the worst. What the hell are you doing playing D&D in the first place if you like soloing so much?
The more MMOs I play, the better DDO gets.
Precisely why I made the point I did. Criticism is fine, though constructive criticism is better. You can say you don't like 50 Cent because his music or genre isn't for you. Pink Floyd apparently is. I can take or leave Pink Floyd myself, and I don't like Hip Hop or Rap, so I'll leave 50 Cent every time, but I won't say "50 Cent sucks" as a blanket statement as if my opinion should be laid out as law and everyone must agree with me. It's not for me, but it is for millions of others, and that's great. Diversity makes the world go 'round.
Does Brad McQuaid have a lack of talent? Or was he and his team so caught up in their vision of what either they wanted themselves, or what we, the players, wanted that they didn't see their vision was (perhaps) taking them down the wrong path? After all, look how much we've been screaming "we hate instances! we want persistence! we want hardcore! we want travel to mean something! we're tired of cartoon graphics!" And Brad gave us exactly what we asked for. What did we do? We instantly remembered why we hated persistence, long travel times, hardcore grinding, etc. I won't get into the performance issues, because Brad admits VG was released too early. I'll reserve judgment on that in 6 months or so when the game is actually ready for release.
For me, DDO is a much better game than WoW or LOTRO in terms of game mechanics. Combat is much better than either of those games, the puzzle element to quests is great, levelling and character classes are much better and show a lot more thought.
Unfortunately, it's everything outside of the mechanics where DDO fails. In WoW you can travel an entire planet and even beyond in the expansions. You can go to deserts, forests, jungles, arctic wastes and swamps as well as the sheer variety of the various cities. In LOTRO the lore and the way you feel part of it is a big selling point.
DDO just doesn't offer those levels of variety and immersion unfortunately. I think a lot of the 'hate' towards DDO is more to do with the fact it could have been a great game but is just full of wasted opportunities that frustrate a lot of MMO fans.
CoH/CoV - D-Zol/Kinslayer
Auto Assault - Slayer
WoW, LOTRO, DDO - Kinsul
Matrix Online - Tempest
While i certainly do not agree that its a better game than WoW, but I can agree that the franchise options gave the game a lot of potential to kick WoWs arse.
I agree completely with your second statement. In the end though, both LOTRO (which i cant stand) and DDO share one big problem. The game engine. Turbine needs to give up on it and make a new one for current gen gaming. This is one of their major setbacks.
People like TheFranchise fail to realize that people didnt want a NWN3. He is missing the point copletely. People like me are bringing up games like NWN and BG, ID, Temple of elemental evil, pool of radiance...ect because they use they set the standards and show how much the D&D rule set can be used in a game. They set the platform for whats needed in a D&D game.
Part of that is as you mentioned, locations. Traveling, and exploring. You have explore to find the dugeon, then you have to explore the dungeon. You might walk into a tavern and have dialog with patrons, or a battle. DDO is restricted to rediculous number of dungeons riddled throughout the city. Thats kinda lame. Walk 2 feet, and you find a dungeon, walk another 2 feet and you find another, turn left and walk a few feet, oh lookie another dungeon. They should have called it the "city where everything is a freakin dungeon".
Lets look at classes. They dont even have druids. A D&D game uses a wide selection of races and classes, half breeds, sub races..ect In DDO you are given a more limited selection than you get in WoW. Thats not good. D&D is the king when it comes to races and classes. DDO does not have this.
They also threw out most of the rules, the leveling up, character progression. There is so much that games like NWN, Bulders Gate and the like, show us as gamers. They show that there can be D&D in a video game, its only left to the developers to not stray from the path. The two good things about DDO is the live combat is refreshing, though (it could use some work) and the dungeons are nicely hand made. Thats about it, and unfortunately thats not enough.
People dont want a NWN3 or another ice wind dale, but they do want a MMORPG that uses the ruleset and D&D features/strengths within the game itself. What people got when they played DDO was a big dissapointment as far as D&D goes. Im sure we can agree that "some" dungeons are a lot of fun, but thats not enough in my opinion to make the game great.
I dunno, I rather like the Turbine engine, it can crank out some gorgeous graphics and effects. Personally, I do wish they'd work on getting more proactive pre-caching so I don't make a fast turn and have my brand-new dual core come to its knees, choking for a few seconds. Aside from that, I really like the engine; it gets the job done and it's in-house so they can work on it all they want and port features back and forth from DDO to LOTRO.
Now, if I had any say-so whatsoever, I'd keep the current "personalized" dungeon for quests, but also open up the world so we can explore. I'm an explorer by nature, it's what I spend a lot of time doing in any game. Hell, I don't bother playing RTS' multiplayer because I'll get wiped out because I'm too busy checking things out while the other guys are busy building bases and armies. But I think a nice balance of having a wide-open world of Eberron to explore, with "live" NPC's in the cities and wilderness giving "normal" quests and making the world feel alive, while keeping the whole dungeon/quest/instance thing going too. Some could be in new cities, some could be found in the wild... all kinds of possibilities, that hopefully would attract new (and old) players while not driving away the existing players who love DDO as it is. That'd be a key factor right there -- there are thousands subscribing to the current DDO, would they want to see it totally redesigned before their eyes? Me, I'd rather that happen than see a DDO2 with those features. It's already got the basics, the ruleset, and we've seen from AC2 and LOTRO the engine does a beautiful job with huge public wilderness areas. It would also give DDO a chance to have some ongoing story arcs like AC1/2 and LOTRO do. (I'm not high enough level in DDO to do any of the modules yet, is there a story to the whole thing or just new content with no story?)