Bah, these forums have become too ripe with frightingly over exagerrated and unbacked opinion and the blindness of narrow minded trolls to be worth it anymore. What shocks me? That some human beings can be so ignorant and willfully blind to clear facts. you mean...(Facts like, No End game, painful levling process, terrible mission system, no goals in game at all, terrible customer service, no real future developments, small world, a handfull of boring uninspiried dungeons, extremely small player population, consistent bugs, less contant than any mmo I've ever played, pointless simplisitic pvp with no sign of rewards or objectives.) Take my advice forum readers, if you're looking for unbiased info/advice on MxO - these forums arn't the place for it anymore.
This is coming from the guy who made a post on the SOE forums telling people to come here and artificially jack up the user rating by creating multiple accounts...the leader of the "fan marketing inititive." Your plan was to use public space to advertise and apparently you still don't realize that you're marketing to the wrong crowd. Check out roleplaying websites, you won't find too many gamers who think MXO has a leg to stand on.
Sorry dude, but MXO is a terrible *game. It only holds interest for hardcore fans of the Matrix franchise, not for anyone else. If you like Matrix themed text based roleplay than it's worth it.
To be fair, I don't think Freiheit and Baff are trolls. A troll, as far as I understand it, is someone who intentionally deceives people and takes them for a ride, be it facts or his person(ality). Someone who tries to "cheat" in a discussion to "win", or someone who's ignorant or can't read, isn't a troll, as far as I know.
ZippyDodah was a troll.
Then again, it's a vast term and I'm probably wrong.
(Freiheit, I remember that post and SkyJackal did not ask to make "multiple" accounts, just to make accounts - in order to post, you know... because... you can't post if you don't have an account... or somethin'; that was a far-fetched interpretation of yourself; keep to the facts)
Edit: Yea, a troll is also someone who bursts into a forum by flaming, spamming *and/or* deceiving. Doesn't change my opinion.
He edited it after he was called out, so you condone that behavior? Is that honest to tell people to do that in any capacity? Would that give an accurate portrait? Earlier someone referred to you as a "fanboy"...it might be cause you don't pick apart the BS like what CW just posted. If you're going to portray yourself as fair and balanced, stop ignoring the MXO marketing teams BS and call them out. Otherwise you're as credible as Sean Hannity.
Cloudwolf is bascially saying the things we say aren't true...which isn't true. To be positive, if you like roleplay and the matrix universe this game is for you, I'm happy for you. But for him and others to say that this is the best mmo out there or to try and compare it to other games and spin ideas to make it sound filled with content is just wrong. He's purposefully trying to mislead consumers in the hopes that he will bring a few people into the game and maybe SOE will fund it. That won't happen because as a game, it has nothing to offer. People know this and saying there aren't facts to support this is a plain lie. They've been repeated a million times.
PS: Work is even slower when you know you're moving to anew job in two weeks.
The reason, (in my humble opinion), that Monolith sold the game to SOE is simple. They were more than likely rushed through the development of the game and didn't exactly get everything into the game that they wanted. So they release an unfinished product, (releasing a game before it's ACTUALLY READY appears to be problematic in the industry). Monolith more than likely foresaw the future, so they sold to SOE to make as much as they could and move on.
Why is this game still running? Who even knows, there's only like 3 servers or something right? SOE just trying to make cash, that's all it amounts to. Or perhaps there's something we don't know about? Maybe SOE is going under and trying to keep it's head above water as much as possible. Who really knows the answer to this question, but one thing is for sure...unless something done, this game is not going to last much longer. Or rather it will stay online, but hardly anyone will play it.
I could say a lot about SOE, but the thing I WILL say: They don't seem to know how to make a "movie" game. You make the movie game, with the fact that it is an MMORPG in mind. You don't go in there thinking, "I'm going to make a MMORPG". Because that's what everyone does, and then the game is just another WoW. Maybe that's what they want, but in order to keep these kind of games running, you have to make a really, really kick ass game from the start. Because MMORPG's have a very long life span, whether people want them to or not, they are based on the internet plain and simple.
The game needs to be taken offline, fixed, or maybe even a new one made, because I just don't feel like I'm LIVING the Matrix and THAT'S what players want.
SOE got MXO in a deal for the liscense for a DC comics MMO. It's safe to assume that the DC game, Vanguard, and other projects are where they're focusing in terms of investment and development. Buying MXO is like buying a used 1994 Honda Civic with missing hubcaps, you can get limited serrvice and find some parts to upgrade it with, but Honda isn't putting money into selling 1994 civics to new customers or revamping it...they have new projects for the future.
Edited the troll part of my post after some re-evaluation.
I think the main problem here is we're all too stubborn. Seriously, just take a step back and look at the stuff we post and realise most of it is a little thing called opinion. Theres nothing wrong with holding nor expressing an opinion - as long as we realise it is never absolute. Theres an infinuem of different opinions. Its when people become too stubborn to realise that they're not the be all and end of truth when things start becoming pointless.
e.g.
Poster 1 Says the game has nothing for game players and is only for diehard matrix and roleplay fans - this is an opinion.
Poster 2 Disagrees and begins to argue their point - this too is opinion.
Neither is more correct than the other since both are opinionated statements/arguements.
Now Poster 3 goes and says the game had 60 devs, quoting from an official source - thats fact.
Its the difference, or lack of on these boards as the case may be, between fact and opinion what make it not worth it anymore.
He edited it after he was called out, so you condone that behavior? Is that honest to tell people to do that in any capacity? Would that give an accurate portrait? Earlier someone referred to you as a "fanboy"...it might be cause you don't pick apart the BS like what CW just posted. If you're going to portray yourself as fair and balanced, stop ignoring the MXO marketing teams BS and call them out. Otherwise you're as credible as Sean Hannity. Cloudwolf is bascially saying the things we say aren't true...which isn't true. To be positive, if you like roleplay and the matrix universe this game is for you, I'm happy for you. But for him and others to say that this is the best mmo out there or to try and compare it to other games and spin ideas to make it sound filled with content is just wrong. He's purposefully trying to mislead consumers in the hopes that he will bring a few people into the game and maybe SOE will fund it. That won't happen because as a game, it has nothing to offer. People know this and saying there aren't facts to support this is a plain lie. They've been repeated a million times.
PS: Work is even slower when you know you're moving to anew job in two weeks.
I thought he edited the part with "vote positively", to "vote" - not the part with the multiple accounts... I mean, that's what you said.
I've already said everything about this particular case a few months ago, and don't want to repeat myself. I'm sure you have a good memory.
I didn't pick apart CW's post? Didn't I just say I didn't consider you or Baff trolls? That's the thank, thanks Who cares, anyway.
When someone posts apparently wrong positive information about MxO here, I'll attack it equally as if it were negative. It doesn't mean I'm going to attack any post that is positive or has a more positive attitude than myself, because I equally don't disagree with everything negative that people have to say about MxO.
I won't have much to oppose when it comes down to comparisons to other MMOs, apart from things I've heard from others - whether negative, or positive, doesn't matter.
I've spoken out against euphemizations and exaggerated positiveness on DN1 long before I had heard about this forum.
SOE got MXO in a deal for the liscense for a DC comics MMO. It's safe to assume that the DC game, Vanguard, and other projects are where they're focusing in terms of investment and development. Buying MXO is like buying a used 1994 Honda Civic with missing hubcaps, you can get limited serrvice and find some parts to upgrade it with, but Honda isn't putting money into selling 1994 civics to new customers or revamping it...they have new projects for the future.
Haha! VERY well put. And I dunno about you but a DC comics MMORPG...uhhh yeah that's already been made, it's called City of Heroes/Villains LOL.
I mean c'mon, if you think a DC comics MMORPG is going to do well NOW? I'm not even going to get started on how retarded of a decision that is. DC, or Marvel, whatever, it ain't gonna work unless it's REALLY AWESOME. Hell I already made an entire server of X-men on City of Heroes LOL Not kidding either, I logged in with a character that looked exactly like Wolverine and someone told me to be original. I told them I wanted to be play Wolverine LOL Claws and everything heh heh heh...
Originally posted by Nineven But like I said before, this game, crap.
The beautiful thing about opinions is this: they're just opinions.
Some people like Matrix, others don't.
And then there are some that has like this unhealthy sexual attachment to it to see it croak and die. I think one day Ill sit down and right a Thesis on this. MMORPG Fans and Haters, a Sexual and Immoral attachment to a virtual execution.
Think about it. At work, do you argue this adamantly against anything? True, we all argue about any type of topics but in terms of MMORPGs, it seems like people get a joygasm just seeing how offended they can make the next person down below their own written post.
Intriguing really.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Originally posted by Nineven But like I said before, this game, crap.
The beautiful thing about opinions is this: they're just opinions.
Some people like Matrix, others don't.
And then there are some that has like this unhealthy sexual attachment to it to see it croak and die. I think one day Ill sit down and right a Thesis on this. MMORPG Fans and Haters, a Sexual and Immoral attachment to a virtual execution.
Think about it. At work, do you argue this adamantly against anything? True, we all argue about any type of topics but in terms of MMORPGs, it seems like people get a joygasm just seeing how offended they can make the next person down below their own written post.
Intriguing really.
I said the game was crap. I didn't make an overly derogatory statement about it like a lot of people have. I also didn't make any personal attacks on any of the posters in this topic.
"Some people like the Matrix, others don't".
You could've left it at this, but you had to add the remark about having an "unhealthy sexual attachment". Which could be taken as an insult to some of the posters in the thread.
Immediately after saying this, you THEN say that some people "get a joygasm just seeing how offended they can make the next person". Basically making you one of these people; in regards to your previous statement above.
I look at this game from a player AND a developer's point of view. Besides missions, and the ongoing story of The Matrix content; there is little else for players to do. They may explore, yes, but exploring every day can get a bit tiresome. Missions can get tiresome. So can grinding levels, loot, or anything for that matter. The crafting system isn't very appealing, (if there even still is one?). Events don't happen every day; and as far as roleplaying is concerned...I feel personally that when a player logs into an MMORPG, that they shouldn't need to "roleplay" because the world has already provided them with that. Unfortunately, not everyone sees things my way.
And yes, I do argue adamantly against the things I believe in at work. If I don't get it my way, I move on; plain and simple.
Originally posted by SkyJackal Poster 1 Says the game has nothing for game players and is only for diehard matrix and roleplay fans - this is an opinion. Poster 2 Disagrees and begins to argue their point - this too is opinion. Neither is more correct than the other since both are opinionated statements/arguements. Now Poster 3 goes and says the game had 60 devs, quoting from an official source - thats fact. Its the difference, or lack of on these boards as the case may be, between fact and opinion what make it not worth it anymore.
Seems to me that someone hasn't learnt the difference between fact and opinion themselves.
If I tell you an official statement says the moon is made from cheese, is that a quote? Does that make it a fact?
That's not fact at all, IF he had quoted from an official source instead of merely alluding to one, then it would be a factual quote, instead of his opinion alone.
Even assuming that an official source said anything of the sort, and assuming yet further that he didn't read it wrong, (and isn't being in any way deceitful); the official statement itself could easily be an outright lie, or a PR exageration or even an honest mistake.
60+ dev's did not work on this game at anytime post release. What total nonsense. Neither do 20+ dev's work on it currently, nor have they at any stage since Sony took it over. This is all nonsense talk. Wishful thinking.
If, and that's a big if, you read an "official" statement claiming that, you have been "officially" misled, plain and simple. A fact is not a fact because you want it to be. It is a reasonable and demonstrable, evidence based assumptioned.
Dude, it's an existing post, many people have seen it. I believe I even quoted it somewhere on this forum, and I had a hard time finding it here.
Maybe I'll quote if for your tomorrow or something.
You're right, your logic is correct. It's not a fact. Following this logic, much of what you know actual isn't a fact, because it could have been a mistake, a deception or a misconception - in your case, lots of ignorance.
I don't *exclude* that that developer made a mistake or lied, but you gotta draw the line somewhere. And take things for granted, not without keeping certain premises in your head.
Otherwise, you'll see that you know very little for sure.
So, a developer working on the game and daily answering player questions says "we had 60 devs working on the game at launch". Maybe that's right, maybe it isn't. That's where common sense comes in. "Would it be any great to the marketing to euphemize times that lie years in the past? Would he err about developer numbers when he was working right there in the offices?"
Considering his down-to-earth relation to the community, the emotional but not nonsensical question joins in: "would he lie to us"?
So, in the end, you come to the conclusion that it's true. A fact. Even if it's not a fact, it's the common, objective knowledge. So in any case, more than an opinion, or wishful thinking.
What do you have to oppose? Your knowledge in game design? Your knowledge of the MxO engine? You certainly don't have the latter one. You have nothing but assumptions that are most probably incompetent, we have common knowledge and an official statement. Is there a 100% certainty? No. Is it common sense to proceed from this? Yes.
Does it makes sense to present common, affirmed knowledge as "fact"? Well, yea.
Can you claim "this is total nonsense", and claim the opposite as fact, when you have so little to oppose? No. Just totally nonsensical.
Can you claim "he lied"? No.
Give us a reasonable argumentation, or an evidence why you're so sure you're right about this. If you succeed, you might have a point.
Right now, you're just a little kid trying to counter reality with his imagination - just like several times in our recent debate. So here's your chance.
I don't *exclude* that that developer made a mistake or lied, but you gotta draw the line somewhere. And take things for granted, not without keeping certain premises in your head.
I draw the line at common sense, when someone says something that is obviously untrue, that's when to draw the line.
If a developer says he had 60 devs working at launch. Common sense would dictate that he does not have 60 dev's still working after launch.
Blame the developer all you like, but I'd lay money that the root of the misinformation is not the source, but rather the messenger.
No matter how much you like him personally, no matter how down to earth he is with the community, it's not the developer who made the mistake. It's you.
Ok now that just plain doesn't make sense - so if Sean quotes a source and the source is wrong (what i by no means am saying it is) it's his fault for it being wrong, not the source?
Besides, this is just another classic example of subjection, personal perception and opinion. YOU believe 60 devs at launch is a unbelievable number and thus disregard it as falsehood, key word being YOU.
And you can't go falling back on 'common sense' because such a matter blatantly calls for more than common everyday sense - it requires who knows how much knowledge into several different fields such as game design, knowledge of the lithtech engine and details of the financial and management situation at the time.
If Sean did quote a source, you would have a point, but since he didn't quote anything at all that would simply be pointless speculation.
If he then goes on to add his own interpretation an imaginary quote that he didn't give.... Then yes, I do think it fair to aportion blame on to him when he gets it totally wrong. They are his words, no one else wrote them.
Essentially, only 1 of 2 people can have got it wrong, him or the person he thinks told him. You choose for yourself, I have.
I am quite willing to believe there was 60 dev's at launch.
But there certainly wasn't 60 dev's afterwards.
Not only is this common sense, it is an evidence led observation.
There is no evidence of Matrix Online being financially capable of supporting 60 developers for an extended period after the completion of their project. This project was not financially successful, it wasn't a top seller. The project was already vastly overbudget and behind schedule on release. It had already bankrupted one development team. The server's never filled up and merged within months; in fact Sony bought it out pretty soon after.
There is no evidence of 60 dev's continuing to work on the project after release, no evidence of 20 dev's working on the project since Sony took it over. No significant content additions, no press tours of giant busy offices. No 60 man paintball days with the fans.
All of this is just fantasy.
A lot of people have a basic understanding of both programming and finance.
No advanced knowledge is necessary. Hence common sense prevails.
For the record, the Lithtech engine is very well known and easy to use, any number of games have been made using it, and many of those games are modded by amateurs on a regular basis. Likewise any number of games have been financed before. 60 dev's costs millions of pounds a year in wages alone. This isn't rocket science.
The search engine on the forums sucks and I can't find it there - fortunately, I've already quoted it here once.
"When the game was being developed at Monolith, Warner Brothers was funding a large team staffed around the clock with people paid to do nothing but run events. And once the game went live, the 60+ member development team were all working on updates for events. That was nice and all but it was incredibly expensive to run, and causing the game to lose money quickly. This could not go on, WB went looking for someone to take the game off their hands, SOE stepped up, and took on the part of the team that they felt they could afford to maintain, which was about a third of the dev team, and none of the live events team. Currently I spend one to three hours every work day running and planning daily events, which is about as much as I can manage."
((By the way, one to three work hours for events. There ))
He doesn't say these 60 people continued working on the game for the entire length of 1-2 months the game was under Monolith. Thus, there might have already been less than 20 after the transition.
Then, he made a statement somewhere else that gives me a reason to think that the numbers have even decreased since the transition, although it's just an interpretation.
But, there were 60 people for some time after release. Deal with it.
I find it good that you question things, baff. You have a more or less concrete reason to think this statement is misleading, or dishonest? Shoot. You have a right to doubt it, and there is a chance that you're right.
But even if you knew lots of MMOs, had a good image of their quality/dev number proportions and had experience with and knowledge about MMO development (that means, a really good reason to doubt) - it would still be an assumption, an opinion, in your own logic.
You still wouldn't really know if there were really 60 people working on the game after release, and an insider statement would still be a valid argument against.
And I *doubt* your knowledge reaches that far, so it's even more of an assumption, although not necessarily a baseless one.
And this is what I don't find good at all. You doubt something, or don't know something, but have no doubt that you're right about it, and claim we're wrong or have been misled.
And then you have the impudence to say we wouldn't know the difference between fact and opinion. IRONY.
Rarebit has already freely admitted current and especially earlier mistakes and failures many times.
And why lie about past dev numbers? Would that be any profitable?
Having this in mind, considering this statement honest and truthful isn't even an emotional question, it's reasonable. 100%? No, but common sense.
And now go ahead and give me a really good reason to think otherwise.
Matrix is over, the movies, the franchise, the games. Everyone move along!
I think not. The fans are too loyal, self included. Though I do believe this peticular title needs to be iether scrapped or bought by a company that will give a crap.
The reason, (in my humble opinion), that Monolith sold the game to SOE is simple. They were more than likely rushed through the development of the game and didn't exactly get everything into the game that they wanted. So they release an unfinished product, (releasing a game before it's ACTUALLY READY appears to be problematic in the industry). Monolith more than likely foresaw the future, so they sold to SOE to make as much as they could and move on. Why is this game still running? Who even knows, there's only like 3 servers or something right? SOE just trying to make cash, that's all it amounts to. Or perhaps there's something we don't know about? Maybe SOE is going under and trying to keep it's head above water as much as possible. Who really knows the answer to this question, but one thing is for sure...unless something done, this game is not going to last much longer. Or rather it will stay online, but hardly anyone will play it. I could say a lot about SOE, but the thing I WILL say: They don't seem to know how to make a "movie" game. You make the movie game, with the fact that it is an MMORPG in mind. You don't go in there thinking, "I'm going to make a MMORPG". Because that's what everyone does, and then the game is just another WoW. Maybe that's what they want, but in order to keep these kind of games running, you have to make a really, really kick ass game from the start. Because MMORPG's have a very long life span, whether people want them to or not, they are based on the internet plain and simple. The game needs to be taken offline, fixed, or maybe even a new one made, because I just don't feel like I'm LIVING the Matrix and THAT'S what players want.
Rarebit has already freely admitted current and especially earlier mistakes and failures many times.
And why lie about past dev numbers? Would that be any profitable?
Having this in mind, considering this statement honest and truthful isn't even an emotional question, it's reasonable. 100%? No, but common sense.
And now go ahead and give me a really good reason to think otherwise.
Thanks for the quote Sean sorry to have doubted you so readily.
Allow me to provide you a quote of my own. It's an official quote too. It refers to the subject of the "live events team" The people paid by Monolith to develop the events after the game went live. This is what IGN reported when they toured the Monolith studios.
" during part of his comments on Thursday, Warner Bros.' Senior Vice President Jason Hall said approval had been given to hire some 20 people to fulfill these roles. "
The question of profit rather cuts to the quick of the matter.
This bloke you have been talking to is trying to sell you something. Are you more likely to pay for something you think next to no one is working on, or are you more likely to pay for something you feel is well supported.
Are you more likely to invest your time (and money) in a game that you feel failed because it was poor quality, or a game that you feel failed because too many dev's were working on it? It was in fact too high quality ....
Can you actually imagine him ever saying, "the reason the game went bust is because it sucks".
He has to say something to keep whoever is left stringed along. He has to promise updates, play up whatever work he is doing, make excuses as to why the content is so few and far between (O the engine is much hareder to program for than other engines..). The one thing he can never say to you is, we will never again make any serious effort with this game.
Your insider is just that, an insider. He is, you are not. He is the official voice. He can tell you what he likes and you can't prove him wrong. He has motive. He wants your money and he has no need to be honest with you. He is the "official" voice.
Since he can't say "we haven't added new content because we aren't paying for any programmers anymore", he has to bullshit you.
Do you remember the events when the game went live?
That's not 60 peoples work.
The "live events team" was made up of GM's not dev's. Server Admins. Two of which now work at Sigil on Vanguard. Here's an exert from their CV's.
"Rachel comes to Sigil from Monolith Productions, where she worked as a shift lead GM and then on the live events team for The Matrix Online. At Monolith, her responsibilities included customer support, department policy, training, storyline writing, event planning and presentation of live event content."
"Ben comes to Sigil from Monolith Productions, where he worked as a shift lead GM for The Matrix Online before being transferred to the live events team. At Monolith, he was responsible for training, customer service quality reviews, policy creation, implementation, designing, and running live events."
Dev's my arse.
Server Admins is all you've been getting. A GM with a pen.
No wonder the game engine is such a pig to program hey? Your "Dev" isn't a programmer, he's the bloke from tech support who answers the emails.
60+ LMAO that's like 10 per server!
Lets hear what the boss had to say about the live event team agian...
" No numbers were stated at that time, Warner Bros.' Senior Vice President Jason Hall said approval had been given to hire some 20 people to fulfill these roles. "
Oh yeah baby, I can do official quotes.
60+?
What total horseshit.
Who shall we believe, the numpty GM or the person who actually did the hiring?
Your so called Dev was a tech support guy previously, an office junior. As I pointed out to you before, those are the people that went over to Sony, not the programmers who made the game. Calling him a dev is stretching the imagination. He didn't do fudge all to make the game, and all those that did stopped working on it on release day.
You must really have wanted to believe that rubbish. It so obviously isn't true that only blind willing faith could have convinced you.
How many "dev's" do you think currently work on MAtrix. ( 4?) multiply that number by 3 and that's the amount of "dev's" who were working on Matrix under Monolith. The staff was cut down by 2/3.
I suggest to you there were 12 of them. Some of those 12 will have had some sort of programming experience. Perhaps 1 or 2, and the rest, like Ben and Rachel moderated forums, answered emails and GM'd servers.
Thanks for the quote Sean sorry to have doubted you so readily.
Oh, but I can understand that.
Allow me to provide you a quote of my own. It's an official quote too. It refers to the subject of the "live events team" The people paid by Monolith to develop the events after the game went live. This is what IGN reported when they toured the Monolith studios.
" during part of his comments on Thursday, Warner Bros.' Senior Vice President Jason Hall said approval had been given to hire some 20 people to fulfill these roles. "
The 20 people LET was a part of the 60 "people working on the game". I mean, they were hardly additional to the 60 developers, right?
I don't really know how wide, narrow, or defined the term "game developer" is. These 20 people were responsible for providing the players a type of content they were interested in, GMs or devs.
Rarebit says "updates for events" - but the updates also included bug fixes and improvements. The events, I think, included clues on the world textures and changes of weather. I don't really know the exact amount of gameplay changes that were made back then.
So basically, there was still something to do for actual developers that weren't merely writing and playing. Since the LET is, as I see it, a part of them all, what he says is basically "there were 40 apart from the LET".
I think.
The financial problems were largely caused by Monolith hiring LET players rather than programmers (confirmed), and them not being able to support the game and its staff with the profit they were getting.
This bloke you have been talking to is trying to sell you something. Are you more likely to pay for something you think next to no one is working on, or are you more likely to pay for something you feel is well supported.
Are you more likely to invest your time (and money) in a game that you feel failed because it was poor quality, or a game that you feel failed because too many dev's were working on it? It was in fact too high quality ....
Can you actually imagine him ever saying, "the reason the game went bust is because it sucks".
The financial problems were largely caused by Monolith hiring LET players rather than programmers (confirmed), and them not being able to support the game and its staff with the profit they were getting.
The profit wasn't sufficient because players left the game, or not enough played. Why? Because they were discontent with the game the one or other way. That would be either not matching interests... or *quality*.
The game went life with tons of game-breaking bugs.
He didn't say "it sucks". But he did say "it failed because we, the developers, messed up". Would you like to spend money on a game a comparably large dev team was working on and released in an unfinished, bugged state, hm?
He did assume it partially failed because not enough efforts have been made to create static content (as opposed to live events). See above.
When answering to questions about development problems, his answers can be like this: "it's not possible / hard to do with the game engine", "we have not enough manpower"/"I don't have enough time", "I don't have enough skills/time", "it would be inefficient due to *insert any of the above*.
He has to say something to keep whoever is left stringed along. He has to promise updates (which are released regularly), play up whatever work he is doing, make excuses as to why the content is so few and far between (O the engine is much hareder to program for than other engines..). The one thing he can never say to you is, we will never again make any serious effort with this game.
He says SOE won't make any serious effort, except keeping the servers running.
Why should he say *he* or his colleagues wouldn't make serious effort *if* they are, but can't achieve grand results *because* they lack in numbers, *because* their engine sucks?
Dude, all of these factors lower the game's quality. They aren't excuses. People can leave because a little dev team is working on the game, and it has an unflexible and unreliable engine.
Your insider is just that, an insider. He is, you are not. He is the official voice. He can tell you what he likes and you can't prove him wrong. He has motive. He wants your money and he has no need to be honest with you. He is the "official" voice.
Neither are you.
Since he can't say "we haven't added new content because we aren't paying for any programmers anymore", he has to bullshit you.
He does say they weren't hiring enough programmers back in the day, he does say he doesn't have programmer skills (and limited skills in other design areas), he does say they can't change something because people who knew the how have left, and no replacement has arrived.
Do you remember the events when the game went live?
That's not 60 peoples work.
No, I wasn't there, and I thought it were 20?
The "live events team" was made up of GM's not dev's. Server Admins. Two of which now work at Sigil on Vanguard. Here's an exert from their CV's.
"Rachel comes to Sigil from Monolith Productions, where she worked as a shift lead GM and then on the live events team for The Matrix Online. At Monolith, her responsibilities included customer support, department policy, training, storyline writing, event planning and presentation of live event content."
"Ben comes to Sigil from Monolith Productions, where he worked as a shift lead GM for The Matrix Online before being transferred to the live events team. At Monolith, he was responsible for training, customer service quality reviews, policy creation, implementation, designing, and running live events."
Dev's my arse.
Server Admins is all you've been getting. A GM with a pen.
People who were providing players with content.
And that's just the LET you're talking about. When did I ever say the LET did programming?
No wonder the game engine is such a pig to program hey? Partially because it's a pig, partially because not enough competence is at place. Which is *admitted*. Your "Dev" isn't a programmer, he's the bloke from tech support who answers the emails.
No, he is not tech support, he is not customer support. He started out in the QA department of Monolith (not sure if it was for MxO or not).
He was one of the five/three mission designers originally.
Now he is the only mission writer, the replacement for the LET, and is actually a developer because he is also responsible for gameplay content additions.
Lets hear what the boss had to say about the live event team agian...
" No numbers were stated at that time, Warner Bros.' Senior Vice President Jason Hall said approval had been given to hire some 20 people to fulfill these roles. "
Oh yeah baby, I can do official quotes.
60+?
What total horseshit.
Who shall we believe, the numpty GM or the person who actually did the hiring?
Rarebit talked about 60 developers, which, again, I think includes the LET.
You're merely talking about the LET, nothing else.
There's not contradiction here whatsoever. When Rarebit talked about the LET, he also referred to "20 people".
Your quotes merely enhance my points (or Rarebit's quotes), they don't disprove them.
Your so called Dev was a tech support guy previously, an office junior. As I pointed out to you before, those are the people that went over to Sony, not the programmers who made the game. Calling him a dev is stretching the imagination. He didn't do fudge all to make the game, and all those that did stopped working on it on release day.
Additionally to what I've all said above, you don't really know who was responsible for what before realease, after release, or after the transition.
Saying that only tech support people went over to SOE is bullshit.
No, I am not an insider, but I have insider statements. Give me disproving ones, and we'll see.
You must really have wanted to believe that rubbish. It so obviously isn't true that only blind willing faith could have convinced you.
Yea, whatever.
How many "dev's" do you think currently work on MAtrix. ( 4?) multiply that number by 3 and that's the amount of "dev's" who were working on Matrix under Monolith. The staff was cut down by 2/3.
I suggest to you there were 12 of them. Some of those 12 will have had some sort of programming experience. Perhaps 1 or 2, and the rest, like Ben and Rachel moderated forums, answered emails and GM'd servers.
If you assume some of those 40 developers left between release and transition, and then some left between the transition and now, maybe.
I have concluded somewhere that there were currently 20 developers, but that wasn't a fully valid assumption, and I've overthought it. The current developer number is *unknown* - if you want to keep to the facts.
The twenty people weren't in addition to any 60 that made the game, they were their replacements.
I wouldn't bother listening to Rarebit anymore if I were you. He makes you sound like an idiot.
He was a beta tester. "QA". He doesn't know dick about anything. This is the job they give to school kids in the holidays. It's technically on par with being able to wash a car or deliver a newspaper.
He is in his early twenties on his first job since leaving college. He gets paid $10-5 an hour. Works shifts and lives in a one room apartment or a shared house.
He works in a low paid, unskilled desk job with no future. If he knew anything about anything he wouldn't be where he is today.
His job brings him kudos.
Online he is a "dev". On the forums, he is the final word. His fans respect him. 17 year old Matrix fans, think he is a great guy, and knowledgeable. No one else treats him this way.
When he said "the game failed becausewe the develeopers fucked up". He lied.
He wasn't one of the developers. He was a beta tester. He has no input into the game whatsoever. It's his fantasy to become a games developer and he enjoys the respect he gets for pretending to be one online. The developers were the guys in the other parts of the building who he never spoke to. He didn't even sit on their table during lunch.
The financial problems of Monolith, was that the game they made was shit and bombed at the shelves. It didn't sell. That's it. They knew for sometime it was going to be shit, and in they end they just released what they had, because there wasn't any sense wasting any more money on something that wasn't going to pay for itself.
Actually, strictly speaking, this wasn't a financial problem for Monolith at all. Warner Brothers are the ones that paid out all the money. Monolith got paid in advance for a project which they completed. The Monolith dev's moved straight on to their next project, FEAR, the minute Matrix went gold. Time Warner hired a support team to manage the game from release. Just as every other game release has done before it. All games do this, not just this one.
And no, your right, I'm not a Sony insider. I'm completely independant. I'm not trying to sell you anything. My income is in no way dependant on anything I say to you. What you get from me is unbias. I can tell the truth at no risk to my livelyhood. I am also not some young beta tester on minimum wage claiming I made a video game because I want to impress teenage nerds who won't know any better.
There isn't twenty developers working on Matrix Online. There hasn't been at any time since it went gold. Currently there are up to 4 support staff. They work shifts so you probably don't get more than one on at a time, maybe 2 during peak hours.
You can even name them. Unlike the other 16 imaginary ones.
When I said "you aren't an insider", I meant your knowledge rather than your bias.
There are only 3, not 4 devs we know on the forums. I wonder where you have "4" from. I'm sure other games have, like, several dozens of them. Do they all have forum accounts? No? Then why are the other developers we don't know by the name "imaginary"?
The players of MxO, including the forum users, aren't only 17-aged like me, but from all different ages. Many are adults.
You know, I wonder where you think you know all of this from, and what makes you so sure about it.
I wonder how you're so familiar with this person's career and life conditions.
Right now, it sounds like brave assumptions and opinion guised as truth and facts.
You tried to teach us about "fact", "fantasy" and "opinion", so your back up better be a good one.
Or is it just like the last time when you claimed the people on the DVD interviews were nobodies hired to praise the movies? I really hope not.
The other developers that you don't know the names of are imaginary because they don't exist.
I suspect that many of the older players have a more experienced understanding of how things work.
I'm familiar with how it works, because I have worked in publishing and the video games industry for numerous companies in numerous positions and because many of my peers have also worked in publishing or the games industry (including Time Warner) and still do.
I am familiar with financing because I am an investor and this is my primary source of income. As an investor it is imperative to my livelihood that I understand how these businesses work and what they are doing.
I'm familiar with Monolith because I have been a fan and customer since the year 2,000. I follow their progress even to this day. I am also quite familiar with Sony Online.
I've been programming, writing and playing games for almost 30 years now.
Yes, I have tried to teach you about "fact" "fantasy" and "opinion" and also the processes and systems used in games development, finance and management.
Instead of giving it the big one and trying to teach me. You would do well to remember that you are a 17 year old student. You have little understanding and even less experience. I've been getting paid to teach people older than you for longer than you have been alive; and I've been making and playing games since before your mother met your father.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Your assumptions and expectations are way off the mark. Re-evaluate them.
You might have experience with all these things, which I respect, and which increases the value of your estimations and opinions on these very things - but you still don't know anything about Rarebit's position or career, or other devs working on MxO.
I also don't know more than I know from himself, but you don't know even that, I think - except you read the forums and the particular thread, regularly.
You should keep this in mind all the time. If you want to prove something specific, you need to bring up arguments to this specfic thesis, instead of talking about your general experience, because that would only increase the probability of your estimations.
You wanna prove me there were not 60 people working on MxO after release? You have a clear insider statement quote as your opposition. Prove me this statement is misleading, and let it be something convincing.
Otherwise, it's not a fact. Not necessarily not worth a penny, but not a fact. Sorry.
The fact that I'm a student makes me unable to teach you about the things you understand and I don't. (Have I done that? I mean, really teach? Not that I remembered, at least.)
Nothing that exceeds it, be it basic argumentation, a particular video game you overestimate your knowledge of, or company-independent facts about certain philosophers.
Comments
This is coming from the guy who made a post on the SOE forums telling people to come here and artificially jack up the user rating by creating multiple accounts...the leader of the "fan marketing inititive." Your plan was to use public space to advertise and apparently you still don't realize that you're marketing to the wrong crowd. Check out roleplaying websites, you won't find too many gamers who think MXO has a leg to stand on.
Sorry dude, but MXO is a terrible *game. It only holds interest for hardcore fans of the Matrix franchise, not for anyone else. If you like Matrix themed text based roleplay than it's worth it.
To be fair, I don't think Freiheit and Baff are trolls. A troll, as far as I understand it, is someone who intentionally deceives people and takes them for a ride, be it facts or his person(ality). Someone who tries to "cheat" in a discussion to "win", or someone who's ignorant or can't read, isn't a troll, as far as I know.
ZippyDodah was a troll.
Then again, it's a vast term and I'm probably wrong.
(Freiheit, I remember that post and SkyJackal did not ask to make "multiple" accounts, just to make accounts - in order to post, you know... because... you can't post if you don't have an account... or somethin'; that was a far-fetched interpretation of yourself; keep to the facts)
Edit: Yea, a troll is also someone who bursts into a forum by flaming, spamming *and/or* deceiving. Doesn't change my opinion.
He edited it after he was called out, so you condone that behavior? Is that honest to tell people to do that in any capacity? Would that give an accurate portrait? Earlier someone referred to you as a "fanboy"...it might be cause you don't pick apart the BS like what CW just posted. If you're going to portray yourself as fair and balanced, stop ignoring the MXO marketing teams BS and call them out. Otherwise you're as credible as Sean Hannity.
Cloudwolf is bascially saying the things we say aren't true...which isn't true. To be positive, if you like roleplay and the matrix universe this game is for you, I'm happy for you. But for him and others to say that this is the best mmo out there or to try and compare it to other games and spin ideas to make it sound filled with content is just wrong. He's purposefully trying to mislead consumers in the hopes that he will bring a few people into the game and maybe SOE will fund it. That won't happen because as a game, it has nothing to offer. People know this and saying there aren't facts to support this is a plain lie. They've been repeated a million times.
PS: Work is even slower when you know you're moving to anew job in two weeks.
The reason, (in my humble opinion), that Monolith sold the game to SOE is simple. They were more than likely rushed through the development of the game and didn't exactly get everything into the game that they wanted. So they release an unfinished product, (releasing a game before it's ACTUALLY READY appears to be problematic in the industry). Monolith more than likely foresaw the future, so they sold to SOE to make as much as they could and move on.
Why is this game still running? Who even knows, there's only like 3 servers or something right? SOE just trying to make cash, that's all it amounts to. Or perhaps there's something we don't know about? Maybe SOE is going under and trying to keep it's head above water as much as possible. Who really knows the answer to this question, but one thing is for sure...unless something done, this game is not going to last much longer. Or rather it will stay online, but hardly anyone will play it.
I could say a lot about SOE, but the thing I WILL say: They don't seem to know how to make a "movie" game. You make the movie game, with the fact that it is an MMORPG in mind. You don't go in there thinking, "I'm going to make a MMORPG". Because that's what everyone does, and then the game is just another WoW. Maybe that's what they want, but in order to keep these kind of games running, you have to make a really, really kick ass game from the start. Because MMORPG's have a very long life span, whether people want them to or not, they are based on the internet plain and simple.
The game needs to be taken offline, fixed, or maybe even a new one made, because I just don't feel like I'm LIVING the Matrix and THAT'S what players want.
Edited the troll part of my post after some re-evaluation.
I think the main problem here is we're all too stubborn. Seriously, just take a step back and look at the stuff we post and realise most of it is a little thing called opinion. Theres nothing wrong with holding nor expressing an opinion - as long as we realise it is never absolute. Theres an infinuem of different opinions. Its when people become too stubborn to realise that they're not the be all and end of truth when things start becoming pointless.
e.g.
Poster 1 Says the game has nothing for game players and is only for diehard matrix and roleplay fans - this is an opinion.
Poster 2 Disagrees and begins to argue their point - this too is opinion.
Neither is more correct than the other since both are opinionated statements/arguements.
Now Poster 3 goes and says the game had 60 devs, quoting from an official source - thats fact.
Its the difference, or lack of on these boards as the case may be, between fact and opinion what make it not worth it anymore.
I've already said everything about this particular case a few months ago, and don't want to repeat myself. I'm sure you have a good memory.
I didn't pick apart CW's post? Didn't I just say I didn't consider you or Baff trolls? That's the thank, thanks
When someone posts apparently wrong positive information about MxO here, I'll attack it equally as if it were negative. It doesn't mean I'm going to attack any post that is positive or has a more positive attitude than myself, because I equally don't disagree with everything negative that people have to say about MxO.
I won't have much to oppose when it comes down to comparisons to other MMOs, apart from things I've heard from others - whether negative, or positive, doesn't matter.
I've spoken out against euphemizations and exaggerated positiveness on DN1 long before I had heard about this forum.
Sounds fair?
Haha! VERY well put. And I dunno about you but a DC comics MMORPG...uhhh yeah that's already been made, it's called City of Heroes/Villains LOL.
I mean c'mon, if you think a DC comics MMORPG is going to do well NOW? I'm not even going to get started on how retarded of a decision that is. DC, or Marvel, whatever, it ain't gonna work unless it's REALLY AWESOME. Hell I already made an entire server of X-men on City of Heroes LOL Not kidding either, I logged in with a character that looked exactly like Wolverine and someone told me to be original. I told them I wanted to be play Wolverine LOL Claws and everything heh heh heh...
But like I said before, this game, crap.
The beautiful thing about opinions is this: they're just opinions.
Some people like Matrix, others don't.
And then there are some that has like this unhealthy sexual attachment to it to see it croak and die. I think one day Ill sit down and right a Thesis on this. MMORPG Fans and Haters, a Sexual and Immoral attachment to a virtual execution.
Think about it. At work, do you argue this adamantly against anything? True, we all argue about any type of topics but in terms of MMORPGs, it seems like people get a joygasm just seeing how offended they can make the next person down below their own written post.
Intriguing really.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
The beautiful thing about opinions is this: they're just opinions.
Some people like Matrix, others don't.
And then there are some that has like this unhealthy sexual attachment to it to see it croak and die. I think one day Ill sit down and right a Thesis on this. MMORPG Fans and Haters, a Sexual and Immoral attachment to a virtual execution.
Think about it. At work, do you argue this adamantly against anything? True, we all argue about any type of topics but in terms of MMORPGs, it seems like people get a joygasm just seeing how offended they can make the next person down below their own written post.
Intriguing really.
I said the game was crap. I didn't make an overly derogatory statement about it like a lot of people have. I also didn't make any personal attacks on any of the posters in this topic.
"Some people like the Matrix, others don't".
You could've left it at this, but you had to add the remark about having an "unhealthy sexual attachment". Which could be taken as an insult to some of the posters in the thread.
Immediately after saying this, you THEN say that some people "get a joygasm just seeing how offended they can make the next person". Basically making you one of these people; in regards to your previous statement above.
I look at this game from a player AND a developer's point of view. Besides missions, and the ongoing story of The Matrix content; there is little else for players to do. They may explore, yes, but exploring every day can get a bit tiresome. Missions can get tiresome. So can grinding levels, loot, or anything for that matter. The crafting system isn't very appealing, (if there even still is one?). Events don't happen every day; and as far as roleplaying is concerned...I feel personally that when a player logs into an MMORPG, that they shouldn't need to "roleplay" because the world has already provided them with that. Unfortunately, not everyone sees things my way.
And yes, I do argue adamantly against the things I believe in at work. If I don't get it my way, I move on; plain and simple.
Seems to me that someone hasn't learnt the difference between fact and opinion themselves.
If I tell you an official statement says the moon is made from cheese, is that a quote? Does that make it a fact?
That's not fact at all, IF he had quoted from an official source instead of merely alluding to one, then it would be a factual quote, instead of his opinion alone.
Even assuming that an official source said anything of the sort, and assuming yet further that he didn't read it wrong, (and isn't being in any way deceitful); the official statement itself could easily be an outright lie, or a PR exageration or even an honest mistake.
60+ dev's did not work on this game at anytime post release. What total nonsense. Neither do 20+ dev's work on it currently, nor have they at any stage since Sony took it over. This is all nonsense talk. Wishful thinking.
If, and that's a big if, you read an "official" statement claiming that, you have been "officially" misled, plain and simple. A fact is not a fact because you want it to be. It is a reasonable and demonstrable, evidence based assumptioned.
Maybe I'll quote if for your tomorrow or something.
You're right, your logic is correct. It's not a fact. Following this logic, much of what you know actual isn't a fact, because it could have been a mistake, a deception or a misconception - in your case, lots of ignorance.
I don't *exclude* that that developer made a mistake or lied, but you gotta draw the line somewhere. And take things for granted, not without keeping certain premises in your head.
Otherwise, you'll see that you know very little for sure.
So, a developer working on the game and daily answering player questions says "we had 60 devs working on the game at launch". Maybe that's right, maybe it isn't. That's where common sense comes in. "Would it be any great to the marketing to euphemize times that lie years in the past? Would he err about developer numbers when he was working right there in the offices?"
Considering his down-to-earth relation to the community, the emotional but not nonsensical question joins in: "would he lie to us"?
So, in the end, you come to the conclusion that it's true. A fact. Even if it's not a fact, it's the common, objective knowledge. So in any case, more than an opinion, or wishful thinking.
What do you have to oppose? Your knowledge in game design? Your knowledge of the MxO engine? You certainly don't have the latter one. You have nothing but assumptions that are most probably incompetent, we have common knowledge and an official statement. Is there a 100% certainty? No. Is it common sense to proceed from this? Yes.
Does it makes sense to present common, affirmed knowledge as "fact"? Well, yea.
Can you claim "this is total nonsense", and claim the opposite as fact, when you have so little to oppose? No. Just totally nonsensical.
Can you claim "he lied"? No.
Give us a reasonable argumentation, or an evidence why you're so sure you're right about this. If you succeed, you might have a point.
Right now, you're just a little kid trying to counter reality with his imagination - just like several times in our recent debate. So here's your chance.
I draw the line at common sense, when someone says something that is obviously untrue, that's when to draw the line.
If a developer says he had 60 devs working at launch. Common sense would dictate that he does not have 60 dev's still working after launch.
Blame the developer all you like, but I'd lay money that the root of the misinformation is not the source, but rather the messenger.
No matter how much you like him personally, no matter how down to earth he is with the community, it's not the developer who made the mistake. It's you.
Ok now that just plain doesn't make sense - so if Sean quotes a source and the source is wrong (what i by no means am saying it is) it's his fault for it being wrong, not the source?
Besides, this is just another classic example of subjection, personal perception and opinion. YOU believe 60 devs at launch is a unbelievable number and thus disregard it as falsehood, key word being YOU.
And you can't go falling back on 'common sense' because such a matter blatantly calls for more than common everyday sense - it requires who knows how much knowledge into several different fields such as game design, knowledge of the lithtech engine and details of the financial and management situation at the time.
If Sean did quote a source, you would have a point, but since he didn't quote anything at all that would simply be pointless speculation.
If he then goes on to add his own interpretation an imaginary quote that he didn't give.... Then yes, I do think it fair to aportion blame on to him when he gets it totally wrong. They are his words, no one else wrote them.
Essentially, only 1 of 2 people can have got it wrong, him or the person he thinks told him. You choose for yourself, I have.
I am quite willing to believe there was 60 dev's at launch.
But there certainly wasn't 60 dev's afterwards.
Not only is this common sense, it is an evidence led observation.
There is no evidence of Matrix Online being financially capable of supporting 60 developers for an extended period after the completion of their project. This project was not financially successful, it wasn't a top seller. The project was already vastly overbudget and behind schedule on release. It had already bankrupted one development team. The server's never filled up and merged within months; in fact Sony bought it out pretty soon after.
There is no evidence of 60 dev's continuing to work on the project after release, no evidence of 20 dev's working on the project since Sony took it over. No significant content additions, no press tours of giant busy offices. No 60 man paintball days with the fans.
All of this is just fantasy.
A lot of people have a basic understanding of both programming and finance.
No advanced knowledge is necessary. Hence common sense prevails.
For the record, the Lithtech engine is very well known and easy to use, any number of games have been made using it, and many of those games are modded by amateurs on a regular basis. Likewise any number of games have been financed before. 60 dev's costs millions of pounds a year in wages alone. This isn't rocket science.
"When the game was being developed at Monolith, Warner Brothers was funding a large team staffed around the clock with people paid to do nothing but run events. And once the game went live, the 60+ member development team were all working on updates for events. That was nice and all but it was incredibly expensive to run, and causing the game to lose money quickly. This could not go on, WB went looking for someone to take the game off their hands, SOE stepped up, and took on the part of the team that they felt they could afford to maintain, which was about a third of the dev team, and none of the live events team. Currently I spend one to three hours every work day running and planning daily events, which is about as much as I can manage."
((By the way, one to three work hours for events. There
He doesn't say these 60 people continued working on the game for the entire length of 1-2 months the game was under Monolith. Thus, there might have already been less than 20 after the transition.
Then, he made a statement somewhere else that gives me a reason to think that the numbers have even decreased since the transition, although it's just an interpretation.
But, there were 60 people for some time after release. Deal with it.
I find it good that you question things, baff. You have a more or less concrete reason to think this statement is misleading, or dishonest? Shoot. You have a right to doubt it, and there is a chance that you're right.
But even if you knew lots of MMOs, had a good image of their quality/dev number proportions and had experience with and knowledge about MMO development (that means, a really good reason to doubt) - it would still be an assumption, an opinion, in your own logic.
You still wouldn't really know if there were really 60 people working on the game after release, and an insider statement would still be a valid argument against.
And I *doubt* your knowledge reaches that far, so it's even more of an assumption, although not necessarily a baseless one.
And this is what I don't find good at all. You doubt something, or don't know something, but have no doubt that you're right about it, and claim we're wrong or have been misled.
And then you have the impudence to say we wouldn't know the difference between fact and opinion. IRONY.
Rarebit has already freely admitted current and especially earlier mistakes and failures many times.
And why lie about past dev numbers? Would that be any profitable?
Having this in mind, considering this statement honest and truthful isn't even an emotional question, it's reasonable. 100%? No, but common sense.
And now go ahead and give me a really good reason to think otherwise.
Thanks for the quote Sean sorry to have doubted you so readily.
Allow me to provide you a quote of my own. It's an official quote too. It refers to the subject of the "live events team" The people paid by Monolith to develop the events after the game went live. This is what IGN reported when they toured the Monolith studios.
" during part of his comments on Thursday, Warner Bros.' Senior Vice President Jason Hall said approval had been given to hire some 20 people to fulfill these roles. "
The question of profit rather cuts to the quick of the matter.
This bloke you have been talking to is trying to sell you something. Are you more likely to pay for something you think next to no one is working on, or are you more likely to pay for something you feel is well supported.
Are you more likely to invest your time (and money) in a game that you feel failed because it was poor quality, or a game that you feel failed because too many dev's were working on it? It was in fact too high quality ....
Can you actually imagine him ever saying, "the reason the game went bust is because it sucks".
He has to say something to keep whoever is left stringed along. He has to promise updates, play up whatever work he is doing, make excuses as to why the content is so few and far between (O the engine is much hareder to program for than other engines..). The one thing he can never say to you is, we will never again make any serious effort with this game.
Your insider is just that, an insider. He is, you are not. He is the official voice. He can tell you what he likes and you can't prove him wrong. He has motive. He wants your money and he has no need to be honest with you. He is the "official" voice.
Since he can't say "we haven't added new content because we aren't paying for any programmers anymore", he has to bullshit you.
Do you remember the events when the game went live?
That's not 60 peoples work.
The "live events team" was made up of GM's not dev's. Server Admins. Two of which now work at Sigil on Vanguard. Here's an exert from their CV's.
"Rachel comes to Sigil from Monolith Productions, where she worked as a shift lead GM and then on the live events team for The Matrix Online. At Monolith, her responsibilities included customer support, department policy, training, storyline writing, event planning and presentation of live event content."
"Ben comes to Sigil from Monolith Productions, where he worked as a shift lead GM for The Matrix Online before being transferred to the live events team. At Monolith, he was responsible for training, customer service quality reviews, policy creation, implementation, designing, and running live events."
Dev's my arse.
Server Admins is all you've been getting. A GM with a pen.
No wonder the game engine is such a pig to program hey? Your "Dev" isn't a programmer, he's the bloke from tech support who answers the emails.
60+ LMAO that's like 10 per server!
Lets hear what the boss had to say about the live event team agian...
" No numbers were stated at that time, Warner Bros.' Senior Vice President Jason Hall said approval had been given to hire some 20 people to fulfill these roles. "
Oh yeah baby, I can do official quotes.
60+?
What total horseshit.
Who shall we believe, the numpty GM or the person who actually did the hiring?
Your so called Dev was a tech support guy previously, an office junior. As I pointed out to you before, those are the people that went over to Sony, not the programmers who made the game. Calling him a dev is stretching the imagination. He didn't do fudge all to make the game, and all those that did stopped working on it on release day.
You must really have wanted to believe that rubbish. It so obviously isn't true that only blind willing faith could have convinced you.
How many "dev's" do you think currently work on MAtrix. ( 4?) multiply that number by 3 and that's the amount of "dev's" who were working on Matrix under Monolith. The staff was cut down by 2/3.
I suggest to you there were 12 of them. Some of those 12 will have had some sort of programming experience. Perhaps 1 or 2, and the rest, like Ben and Rachel moderated forums, answered emails and GM'd servers.
Oh, but I can understand that.
Allow me to provide you a quote of my own. It's an official quote too. It refers to the subject of the "live events team" The people paid by Monolith to develop the events after the game went live. This is what IGN reported when they toured the Monolith studios.
" during part of his comments on Thursday, Warner Bros.' Senior Vice President Jason Hall said approval had been given to hire some 20 people to fulfill these roles. "
The 20 people LET was a part of the 60 "people working on the game". I mean, they were hardly additional to the 60 developers, right?
I don't really know how wide, narrow, or defined the term "game developer" is. These 20 people were responsible for providing the players a type of content they were interested in, GMs or devs.
Rarebit says "updates for events" - but the updates also included bug fixes and improvements. The events, I think, included clues on the world textures and changes of weather. I don't really know the exact amount of gameplay changes that were made back then.
So basically, there was still something to do for actual developers that weren't merely writing and playing. Since the LET is, as I see it, a part of them all, what he says is basically "there were 40 apart from the LET".
I think.
The financial problems were largely caused by Monolith hiring LET players rather than programmers (confirmed), and them not being able to support the game and its staff with the profit they were getting.
This bloke you have been talking to is trying to sell you something. Are you more likely to pay for something you think next to no one is working on, or are you more likely to pay for something you feel is well supported.
Are you more likely to invest your time (and money) in a game that you feel failed because it was poor quality, or a game that you feel failed because too many dev's were working on it? It was in fact too high quality ....
Can you actually imagine him ever saying, "the reason the game went bust is because it sucks".
The financial problems were largely caused by Monolith hiring LET players rather than programmers (confirmed), and them not being able to support the game and its staff with the profit they were getting.
The profit wasn't sufficient because players left the game, or not enough played. Why? Because they were discontent with the game the one or other way. That would be either not matching interests... or *quality*.
The game went life with tons of game-breaking bugs.
He didn't say "it sucks". But he did say "it failed because we, the developers, messed up". Would you like to spend money on a game a comparably large dev team was working on and released in an unfinished, bugged state, hm?
He did assume it partially failed because not enough efforts have been made to create static content (as opposed to live events). See above.
When answering to questions about development problems, his answers can be like this: "it's not possible / hard to do with the game engine", "we have not enough manpower"/"I don't have enough time", "I don't have enough skills/time", "it would be inefficient due to *insert any of the above*.
He has to say something to keep whoever is left stringed along. He has to promise updates (which are released regularly), play up whatever work he is doing, make excuses as to why the content is so few and far between (O the engine is much hareder to program for than other engines..). The one thing he can never say to you is, we will never again make any serious effort with this game.
He says SOE won't make any serious effort, except keeping the servers running.
Why should he say *he* or his colleagues wouldn't make serious effort *if* they are, but can't achieve grand results *because* they lack in numbers, *because* their engine sucks?
Dude, all of these factors lower the game's quality. They aren't excuses. People can leave because a little dev team is working on the game, and it has an unflexible and unreliable engine.
Your insider is just that, an insider. He is, you are not. He is the official voice. He can tell you what he likes and you can't prove him wrong. He has motive. He wants your money and he has no need to be honest with you. He is the "official" voice.
Neither are you.
Since he can't say "we haven't added new content because we aren't paying for any programmers anymore", he has to bullshit you.
He does say they weren't hiring enough programmers back in the day, he does say he doesn't have programmer skills (and limited skills in other design areas), he does say they can't change something because people who knew the how have left, and no replacement has arrived.
Do you remember the events when the game went live?
That's not 60 peoples work.
No, I wasn't there, and I thought it were 20?
The "live events team" was made up of GM's not dev's. Server Admins. Two of which now work at Sigil on Vanguard. Here's an exert from their CV's.
"Rachel comes to Sigil from Monolith Productions, where she worked as a shift lead GM and then on the live events team for The Matrix Online. At Monolith, her responsibilities included customer support, department policy, training, storyline writing, event planning and presentation of live event content."
"Ben comes to Sigil from Monolith Productions, where he worked as a shift lead GM for The Matrix Online before being transferred to the live events team. At Monolith, he was responsible for training, customer service quality reviews, policy creation, implementation, designing, and running live events."
Dev's my arse.
Server Admins is all you've been getting. A GM with a pen.
People who were providing players with content.
And that's just the LET you're talking about. When did I ever say the LET did programming?
No wonder the game engine is such a pig to program hey? Partially because it's a pig, partially because not enough competence is at place. Which is *admitted*. Your "Dev" isn't a programmer, he's the bloke from tech support who answers the emails.
No, he is not tech support, he is not customer support. He started out in the QA department of Monolith (not sure if it was for MxO or not).
He was one of the five/three mission designers originally.
Now he is the only mission writer, the replacement for the LET, and is actually a developer because he is also responsible for gameplay content additions.
Lets hear what the boss had to say about the live event team agian...
" No numbers were stated at that time, Warner Bros.' Senior Vice President Jason Hall said approval had been given to hire some 20 people to fulfill these roles. "
Oh yeah baby, I can do official quotes.
60+?
What total horseshit.
Who shall we believe, the numpty GM or the person who actually did the hiring?
Rarebit talked about 60 developers, which, again, I think includes the LET.
You're merely talking about the LET, nothing else.
There's not contradiction here whatsoever. When Rarebit talked about the LET, he also referred to "20 people".
Your quotes merely enhance my points (or Rarebit's quotes), they don't disprove them.
Your so called Dev was a tech support guy previously, an office junior. As I pointed out to you before, those are the people that went over to Sony, not the programmers who made the game. Calling him a dev is stretching the imagination. He didn't do fudge all to make the game, and all those that did stopped working on it on release day.
Additionally to what I've all said above, you don't really know who was responsible for what before realease, after release, or after the transition.
Saying that only tech support people went over to SOE is bullshit.
No, I am not an insider, but I have insider statements. Give me disproving ones, and we'll see.
You must really have wanted to believe that rubbish. It so obviously isn't true that only blind willing faith could have convinced you.
Yea, whatever.
How many "dev's" do you think currently work on MAtrix. ( 4?) multiply that number by 3 and that's the amount of "dev's" who were working on Matrix under Monolith. The staff was cut down by 2/3.
I suggest to you there were 12 of them. Some of those 12 will have had some sort of programming experience. Perhaps 1 or 2, and the rest, like Ben and Rachel moderated forums, answered emails and GM'd servers.
If you assume some of those 40 developers left between release and transition, and then some left between the transition and now, maybe.
I have concluded somewhere that there were currently 20 developers, but that wasn't a fully valid assumption, and I've overthought it. The current developer number is *unknown* - if you want to keep to the facts.
The twenty people weren't in addition to any 60 that made the game, they were their replacements.
I wouldn't bother listening to Rarebit anymore if I were you. He makes you sound like an idiot.
He was a beta tester. "QA". He doesn't know dick about anything. This is the job they give to school kids in the holidays. It's technically on par with being able to wash a car or deliver a newspaper.
He is in his early twenties on his first job since leaving college. He gets paid $10-5 an hour. Works shifts and lives in a one room apartment or a shared house.
He works in a low paid, unskilled desk job with no future. If he knew anything about anything he wouldn't be where he is today.
His job brings him kudos.
Online he is a "dev". On the forums, he is the final word. His fans respect him. 17 year old Matrix fans, think he is a great guy, and knowledgeable. No one else treats him this way.
When he said "the game failed because we the develeopers fucked up". He lied.
He wasn't one of the developers. He was a beta tester. He has no input into the game whatsoever. It's his fantasy to become a games developer and he enjoys the respect he gets for pretending to be one online. The developers were the guys in the other parts of the building who he never spoke to. He didn't even sit on their table during lunch.
The financial problems of Monolith, was that the game they made was shit and bombed at the shelves. It didn't sell. That's it. They knew for sometime it was going to be shit, and in they end they just released what they had, because there wasn't any sense wasting any more money on something that wasn't going to pay for itself.
Actually, strictly speaking, this wasn't a financial problem for Monolith at all. Warner Brothers are the ones that paid out all the money. Monolith got paid in advance for a project which they completed. The Monolith dev's moved straight on to their next project, FEAR, the minute Matrix went gold. Time Warner hired a support team to manage the game from release. Just as every other game release has done before it. All games do this, not just this one.
And no, your right, I'm not a Sony insider. I'm completely independant. I'm not trying to sell you anything. My income is in no way dependant on anything I say to you. What you get from me is unbias. I can tell the truth at no risk to my livelyhood. I am also not some young beta tester on minimum wage claiming I made a video game because I want to impress teenage nerds who won't know any better.
There isn't twenty developers working on Matrix Online. There hasn't been at any time since it went gold. Currently there are up to 4 support staff. They work shifts so you probably don't get more than one on at a time, maybe 2 during peak hours.
You can even name them. Unlike the other 16 imaginary ones.
There are only 3, not 4 devs we know on the forums. I wonder where you have "4" from. I'm sure other games have, like, several dozens of them. Do they all have forum accounts? No? Then why are the other developers we don't know by the name "imaginary"?
The players of MxO, including the forum users, aren't only 17-aged like me, but from all different ages. Many are adults.
You know, I wonder where you think you know all of this from, and what makes you so sure about it.
I wonder how you're so familiar with this person's career and life conditions.
Right now, it sounds like brave assumptions and opinion guised as truth and facts.
You tried to teach us about "fact", "fantasy" and "opinion", so your back up better be a good one.
Or is it just like the last time when you claimed the people on the DVD interviews were nobodies hired to praise the movies? I really hope not.
The other developers that you don't know the names of are imaginary because they don't exist.
I suspect that many of the older players have a more experienced understanding of how things work.
I'm familiar with how it works, because I have worked in publishing and the video games industry for numerous companies in numerous positions and because many of my peers have also worked in publishing or the games industry (including Time Warner) and still do.
I am familiar with financing because I am an investor and this is my primary source of income. As an investor it is imperative to my livelihood that I understand how these businesses work and what they are doing.
I'm familiar with Monolith because I have been a fan and customer since the year 2,000. I follow their progress even to this day. I am also quite familiar with Sony Online.
I've been programming, writing and playing games for almost 30 years now.
Yes, I have tried to teach you about "fact" "fantasy" and "opinion" and also the processes and systems used in games development, finance and management.
Instead of giving it the big one and trying to teach me. You would do well to remember that you are a 17 year old student. You have little understanding and even less experience. I've been getting paid to teach people older than you for longer than you have been alive; and I've been making and playing games since before your mother met your father.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Your assumptions and expectations are way off the mark. Re-evaluate them.
I also don't know more than I know from himself, but you don't know even that, I think - except you read the forums and the particular thread, regularly.
You should keep this in mind all the time. If you want to prove something specific, you need to bring up arguments to this specfic thesis, instead of talking about your general experience, because that would only increase the probability of your estimations.
You wanna prove me there were not 60 people working on MxO after release? You have a clear insider statement quote as your opposition. Prove me this statement is misleading, and let it be something convincing.
Otherwise, it's not a fact. Not necessarily not worth a penny, but not a fact. Sorry.
The fact that I'm a student makes me unable to teach you about the things you understand and I don't. (Have I done that? I mean, really teach? Not that I remembered, at least.)
Nothing that exceeds it, be it basic argumentation, a particular video game you overestimate your knowledge of, or company-independent facts about certain philosophers.
I'm not here to prove things to you.
You will never get absolute proof in life about anything.
That's where common sense kicks in. You have to learn what sounds believeable and what doesn't.
Do yourself a favour. Investigate some other projects that you deem comparable. Give yourself a few benchmarks to compare things with.
There wasn't 60+ people working on MXO after release. There was under 20.
I've told you, the project managment has told you. The rest is up to you.
You can go on believeing that a beta tester knows more about it if you like. It's your call.