Lacking the balls to operate and actually use for communications and official forum. Shows me that the developers are not serious about their community and that they dont have faith in their product. True official forums are often filled with flames but in most cases that means there are problems in the game. Lack of OF also tell me that their product is going to be inferior and that they do not want a centralized place for people to whine because people like me read the actual player discussions to decide if a game is ready for purchase. Game companies should always use their Tech advantage to bring themselves closer to their audience. And that means having a couple guys on the payroll to keep up with the feedback they find in a central location. Everyone seems to be pointing at Mythic as representative of not having OF being a good thing. I have to wonder if these people played the game in the first 16 months when there was nothing but problems and mass confusion and no where to go with questions or to see what the dev team was planning.
Thats nice, make sure you ignore all the ratings that you'll get from this site, and the hundreds of other links, and you can estimate anything free of burdening wholesome truth!! Yipee! Ignorance is bliss! I can now make any assumption because I'm totally devoid of knowledge of how well the game will do since it hasn't released yet, there are no OF, therefor the game must be terrible, isn't making assumptions fun!?
I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, The dreams in which I'm dieing are the best I've ever had.
Lacking the balls to operate and actually use for communications and official forum. Shows me that the developers are not serious about their community and that they dont have faith in their product. True official forums are often filled with flames but in most cases that means there are problems in the game. Lack of OF also tell me that their product is going to be inferior and that they do not want a centralized place for people to whine because people like me read the actual player discussions to decide if a game is ready for purchase. Game companies should always use their Tech advantage to bring themselves closer to their audience. And that means having a couple guys on the payroll to keep up with the feedback they find in a central location. Everyone seems to be pointing at Mythic as representative of not having OF being a good thing. I have to wonder if these people played the game in the first 16 months when there was nothing but problems and mass confusion and no where to go with questions or to see what the dev team was planning.
I laughed when I read your first two sentences. Are you kidding me???
Name another game that invited the leaders from all the fansites out there to their HQ, let them play the game for hours, have hours of Q&A time, and the entire trip was "all-paid."
No they sure don't care about their community at all. hahaha.
They had no Official Forums in Camelot, and that game was far from "inferior." There are also more than a couple of guys that keep up with the feedback they find on the fansites. Just go to warhammeralliance and hit the DevTracker and you'll see how involved they are in the development.
Your assumptions are horribly mistaken.
--------------------------------------------- I live to fight, and fight to live.
It’s a good thing that Mythic has decided not to run official forums seeing there are so costly as surely they would discount the monthly subscription fee by not offering a service that most other MMO’s do..
Simply fact of the matter is, its not relevant if OF provide a good source or bad source of information as it’s a service to customers other MMO companies provide that Mythic has chosen not too.
It’s just another company trying to make money without having to provide a level of service to its paying customer base and keeping them at arms length.
I quote from Richards own words:
How in any way are we showing we don't want to listen to our community when we are providing means for the community to speak to us directly, just not official forums.
You’re not listening now about something that a lot of posters here consider irrelevant when the poll clearly shows that most are in favor of. After all, if OF requests are ignored I would imagine anything game related will more then likely be also.
If you don’t believe the poll here, Mythic should run their own and see what information they get from it, but sorry any company telling me what’s good for me and they know better when I expect a particular level of service that other companies provide just ticks me off.
That level or arrogance to its paying customer base is deserving of a vote from my hip pocket if I'm paying the same subscription as other mainstream MMO companies who do go the extra mile of providing offical forums.
There was a really good interview with the CEO of Guild Cafe given recently on Gamasutra. He made a very good point as I see it on why Official Forums aren't really that beneficial.
To what degree do you think developers and publishers rely on outside community with MMOs?
Originally, it was more about trying to control the community by creating some in-house forums run by overworked moderators. Now it is about engaging in conversations with your players and prospective customers. Those conversations happen everywhere—on outside forums, on blogs, on places like GuildCafe. The in-house forums are a tiny minority of very dedicated players; to really grok your community you need to go outside your walls and interact with people.
Official forums are and always have been the vocal minority of a player base. To really understand your community, you need to visit these fan operated sites as more of your community uses those far more than they use any kind of official forum. Mythic has just decided that the vocal minority isn't what they want to focus on. They've also said if you don't want to play their game because they don't have official forums, that also is alright with them.
The whole aspect of a lower monthly payment with the lack of official forums is flawed. What it allows them to do is hire another programmer, or another artist, or put that money into a different system that can be of a greater benefit than some website a tiny minority of the playerbase will post on that ends up with no real discussion of any true value.
It’s a good thing that Mythic has decided not to run official forums seeing there are so costly as surely they would discount the monthly subscription fee by not offering a service that most other MMO’s do.. Simply fact of the matter is, its not relevant if OF provide a good source or bad source of information as it’s a service to customers other MMO companies provide that Mythic has chosen not too. It’s just another company trying to make money without having to provide a level of service to its paying customer base and keeping them at arms length. I quote from Richards own words: How in any way are we showing we don't want to listen to our community when we are providing means for the community to speak to us directly, just not official forums. You’re not listening now about something that a lot of posters here consider irrelevant when the poll clearly shows that most are in favor of. After all, if OF requests are ignored I would imagine anything game related will more then likely be also. If you don’t believe the poll here, Mythic should run their own and see what information they get from it, but sorry any company telling me what’s good for me and they know better when I expect a particular level of service that other companies provide just ticks me off. That level or arrogance to its paying customer base is deserving of a vote from my hip pocket if I'm paying the same subscription as other mainstream MMO companies who do go the extra mile of providing offical forums.
Are you serious?
How in any way have official forums been helpful to the developers? Usually it is a small subsection of the consumer base that posts and usually it is all complaining. Cries for nerfs, buffs, class imbalance, lack of devs listening.
Yes I can see where forums are an essential part of an MMO experience. /sarcasm
The Devs have already shown they frequently visit fan sites and siphon off constructive suggestions. Lets totally forget the fact that Mythic is also helping to drive traffic to community centers which helps gather people of the same interest to resources to help them play the game better.
There is nothing you can say to justify official forums. It is a luxury with little benefit to players or the company. Just because you want an official soap box to complain on does not justify the need for it.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
It’s a good thing that Mythic has decided not to run official forums seeing there are so costly as surely they would discount the monthly subscription fee by not offering a service that most other MMO’s do.. Simply fact of the matter is, its not relevant if OF provide a good source or bad source of information as it’s a service to customers other MMO companies provide that Mythic has chosen not too. It’s just another company trying to make money without having to provide a level of service to its paying customer base and keeping them at arms length. I quote from Richards own words: How in any way are we showing we don't want to listen to our community when we are providing means for the community to speak to us directly, just not official forums. You’re not listening now about something that a lot of posters here consider irrelevant when the poll clearly shows that most are in favor of. After all, if OF requests are ignored I would imagine anything game related will more then likely be also. If you don’t believe the poll here, Mythic should run their own and see what information they get from it, but sorry any company telling me what’s good for me and they know better when I expect a particular level of service that other companies provide just ticks me off. That level or arrogance to its paying customer base is deserving of a vote from my hip pocket if I'm paying the same subscription as other mainstream MMO companies who do go the extra mile of providing offical forums.
Are you serious?
How in any way have official forums been helpful to the developers? Usually it is a small subsection of the consumer base that posts and usually it is all complaining. Cries for nerfs, buffs, class imbalance, lack of devs listening.
Yes I can see where forums are an essential part of an MMO experience. /sarcasm
The Devs have already shown they frequently visit fan sites and siphon off constructive suggestions. Lets totally forget the fact that Mythic is also helping to drive traffic to community centers which helps gather people of the same interest to resources to help them play the game better.
There is nothing you can say to justify official forums. It is a luxury with little benefit to players or the company. Just because you want an official soap box to complain on does not justify the need for it.
You missed my point, as i stated it's not relevant if the forums are helpful or not to the developers, but it is to ME as a would be paying customer and judging by the poll to others as well. It may not be to YOU as thats fair enough, but it comes down to a level of service that I expect for my dollar, if they do not wish to provide it that is their choice, but by the same token I should at lest get a discount if others provide it at the same cost.
I'm sure the game will be a success and I hope it is, but is it being unreasonable for me to ask for something that other MMO's provide as a standard level of service, thats all I am saying.
It all comes down to a choice, you say they are not needed and i respect that, and i say I would like them, can you not respect my opinon on the matter? As at this moment in time, I have no choice, if they did support and provide offical forums, you would still have the choice of not partaking in that service.
Also I forgot to mention hence the edit, who said I would use them for complaining? If you look at my post count and join date say compared to your own, you would come to the conclusion that I was one of the silent majority who on this rare occasion merely decided to voice my opinon.
You missed my point, as i stated it's not relevant if the forums are helpful or not to the developers, but it is to ME as a would be paying customer and judging by the poll to others as well. It may not be to YOU as thats fair enough, but it comes down to a level of service that I expect for my dollar, if they do not wish to provide it that is their choice, but by the same token I should at lest get a discount if others provide it at the same cost. I'm sure the game will be a success and I hope it is, but is it being unreasonable for me to ask for something that other MMO's provide as a standard level of service, thats all I am saying. It all comes down to a choice, you say they are not needed and i respect that, and i say I would like them, can you not respect my opinon on the matter? As at this moment in time, I have no choice, if they did support and provide offical forums, you would still have the choice of not partaking in that service. Also I forgot to mention hence the edit, who said I would use them for complaining? If you look at my post count and join date say compared to your own, you would come to the conclusion that I was one of the silent majority who on this rare occasion merely decided to voice my opinon.
The problem is part of your point does not make any sense.
You say that other companies provide this as part of their service that you pay for. Fair enough, but what they spend on forums comes out of every other aspect of the company. Less QA, DEV, and other resources that go into the game. To say you should get a discount is a failed argument. What they do not spend on forums will go to other aspects of the game itself.
Are you arguing that you would rather have forums then more content or bug fixes?
There is also a question of necessity. If there are 3 - 4 major sites the company participates in (forums) how is that any different then having official forums? If they make the same posts and respond to threads how is that any different other then location and moderation?
While you can argue that you would not complain, history dictates the majority of the people voting for official forums would.
Like I said you cannot give reasonable argument for official forums except selfishness. While you do have a right to be selfish it does not mean your points are correct and hiding behind consumerism does not change that fact.
edit:
As to the argument of choice. You do have a choice. WAR has arguably the most open development of any MMO to date all without official forums. If you are not going to the forums to argue then you must go to get information. Mythic has enabled the fan sites to provide more game information then most other companies. You have the choice on which sites relay that information the best and which have the most interaction with mythic and GW. This gives you more of a choice then if I had to go to the official boards to get information. You have a several tiered choice... I would only have 2 options.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
The question here should not be "Why won't WAR have official forums?" But.."Will EA/Mythic have some sort of feedback system for players to expres their concerns and the developers to respond? Forums are the normal way to do this, but it's not impossible they will have another method.
If they use the DAoC model then yes there will be. Also they are using the fan sites for feed back so I really think this is a none issue.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Originally posted by checkthis500 I laughed when I read your first two sentences. Are you kidding me???
Name another game that invited the leaders from all the fansites out there to their HQ, let them play the game for hours, have hours of Q&A time, and the entire trip was "all-paid."
There was a really good interview with the CEO of Guild Cafe given recently on Gamasutra. He made a very good point as I see it on why Official Forums aren't really that beneficial. www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php
To what degree do you think developers and publishers rely on outside community with MMOs?
Originally, it was more about trying to control the community by creating some in-house forums run by overworked moderators. Now it is about engaging in conversations with your players and prospective customers. Those conversations happen everywhere—on outside forums, on blogs, on places like GuildCafe. The in-house forums are a tiny minority of very dedicated players; to really grok your community you need to go outside your walls and interact with people.
Official forums are and always have been the vocal minority of a player base. To really understand your community, you need to visit these fan operated sites as more of your community uses those far more than they use any kind of official forum. Mythic has just decided that the vocal minority isn't what they want to focus on. They've also said if you don't want to play their game because they don't have official forums, that also is alright with them.
The whole aspect of a lower monthly payment with the lack of official forums is flawed. What it allows them to do is hire another programmer, or another artist, or put that money into a different system that can be of a greater benefit than some website a tiny minority of the playerbase will post on that ends up with no real discussion of any true value.
Good point BUT imo you have to learn mixing both ways. WoW can be again a good example.
The problem is part of your point does not make any sense.
You say that other companies provide this as part of their service that you pay for. Fair enough, but what they spend on forums comes out of every other aspect of the company. Less QA, DEV, and other resources that go into the game. To say you should get a discount is a failed argument. What they do not spend on forums will go to other aspects of the game itself. Are you arguing that you would rather have forums then more content or bug fixes? There is also a question of necessity. If there are 3 - 4 major sites the company participates in (forums) how is that any different then having official forums? If they make the same posts and respond to threads how is that any different other then location and moderation? While you can argue that you would not complain, history dictates the majority of the people voting for official forums would. Like I said you cannot give reasonable argument for official forums except selfishness. While you do have a right to be selfish it does not mean your points are correct and hiding behind consumerism does not change that fact. edit: As to the argument of choice. You do have a choice. WAR has arguably the most open development of any MMO to date all without official forums. If you are not going to the forums to argue then you must go to get information. Mythic has enabled the fan sites to provide more game information then most other companies. You have the choice on which sites relay that information the best and which have the most interaction with mythic and GW. This gives you more of a choice then if I had to go to the official boards to get information. You have a several tiered choice... I would only have 2 options.
Hmm, in 2 post I'm either a complainer, or that I am selfish. I think you for your wisdom in pointing that out.
Ok point by point.
Cost of forums.
I have no idea how much that would be i must confess, I would imagine it wouldn't be a large part of the cost of subscription, I could be wrong, but I think its fare to say it doesn't cost as much or other companies would either follow the same rules as Mythic has done or charge a little extra to cover it. So the point of funneling the extra cash saved in to continued development of the game probably is a weak argument. Most business who cost cut do so to increase the bottom line.
Also if a game is doing very well or poorly, the development team size will be dictated accordingly.
Necessity and Ease
It would be easier for me to go to one site then 3-4 major sites, and i would imagine easier for the developers also. After all, by your argument, they would have to visit all 3-4 major sites to answer the same questions. Besides, like I have stated it would be easier for a 41 year old working family man with many responsibilities like myself not to waste time jumping from site to site when I could just visit one.
Flaming
If there are or are not offical forms, flaming will still occur anyway, how is that a justification in not having them?
No argument for having forums and being selfish.
We could argue the pro's and cons till the cows come home, I merely state that it would be better for myself and judging again by the poll for others as well and its as simple as that. As for being selfish i don't really understand how I am being that way. To be selfish would be deny you something that I have which i should share. I therefore ask you in a civil manner, is it unreasonable for me to expect offical forums which the majority of other mmo's provide? I should not have to argue and justify something that appears to be an industry standard.
Choice.
Your argument is not valid, there will still be fan sites for you to visit as well as myself. Mythic's choice and your opinons deny me mine, I do not deny you yours, who by that analogy is being selfish?
At the end of the day Mythic will do as they see fit, I merely ask they consider those people that would like centralized offically support place to air their views.
I think your opinons to you are quite valid and I respect them on that basis, but please allow me to have mine and if you do not, I suggest you look in the mirror for the selfish one.
Hmm, in 2 post I'm either a complainer, or that I am selfish. I think you for your wisdom in pointing that out. Ok point by point. Cost of forums. I have no idea how much that would be i must confess, I would imagine it wouldn't be a large part of the cost of subscription, I could be wrong, but I think its fare to say it doesn't cost as much or other companies would either follow the same rules as Mythic has done or charge a little extra to cover it. So the point of funneling the extra cash saved in to continued development of the game probably is a weak argument. Most business who cost cut do so to increase the bottom line. Also if a game is doing very well or poorly, the development team size will be dictated accordingly. Here is why we differ, I do know how much production servers cost (and yes that includes high end forum servers). I also know the staff that is needed to support such a server. It is not cheap, but you also refuted your own argument about compensation by stating that the impact in monthly subscription cost would be minimal... In actually probably less then 2 cents per subscriber a month. So even though the cost to the company is real... the cost to you the consumer is minimal. You really want 2 cents a month taken of your subscription?The question is not are they cutting costs... the question is it a useful investment for the company to have forums... that answer is no.
Necessity and Ease It would be easier for me to go to one site then 3-4 major sites, and i would imagine easier for the developers also. After all, by your argument, they would have to visit all 3-4 major sites to answer the same questions. Besides, like I have stated it would be easier for a 41 year old working family man with many responsibilities like myself not to waste time jumping from site to site when I could just visit one. This is actually not true. The community manager can contact the community sites in mass. The community sites then release that information in various forms. Some sites may get exclusives but again the other sites will quickly link to that information. By going to one community site the chances of you missing any information is very rare. As to responses on the forums even on official forums responses are rare so to say it would happen less on community sites would unlikely be true. The key here is you would still have your favorite site to go to with all the information you would find on official forums.
Flaming If there are or are not offical forms, flaming will still occur anyway, how is that a justification in not having them? My point is from the companies view. Why spend money on something that is not constructive to your community or the game? Wise companies look at the benefits of all their services. They look at it from the company and consumers point of view. Again with historical data of past MMOs official forums really serve no constructive purpose. No argument for having forums and being selfish. We could argue the pro's and cons till the cows come home, I merely state that it would be better for myself and judging again by the poll for others as well and its as simple as that. As for being selfish i don't really understand how I am being that way. To be selfish would be deny you something that I have which i should share. I therefore ask you in a civil manner, is it unreasonable for me to expect offical forums which the majority of other mmo's provide? I should not have to argue and justify something that appears to be an industry standard. The reason why I use the word selfish is you are looking at this issue from only your point of view. Do I think you are a bad man... no. I do think in this one aspect you are not considering what would benefit the game overall just what you would prefer. I would not even call you selfish if you did not unreasonably expect to be compensated for lack of official forums. That is being irrational as you have already pointed out the savings to the subscriber would be inconsequential. The cost to the company would not.
Choice. Your argument is not valid, there will still be fan sites for you to visit as well as myself. Mythic's choice and your opinons deny me mine, I do not deny you yours, who by that analogy is being selfish? The fan sites will be marginalized. When was the last time you have seen a Dev post for WoW or EQII on a fan site? So in fact it will hurt the community cohesion and thus the game. I am looking at this purely from a company and community stand point. I do not think official forums are healthy overall but I would not complain if they had them. My point is you are hung up on the word official. If Mythic made one fan site forum the official WAR forum would that be different then having it in house? They do post and they do disseminate information just like they would on an official forum. It is not like you would have to go to 3 different sites to get the same information. It is still on all the sites... It becomes a community and visual preference which ONE you choose. At the end of the day Mythic will do as they see fit, I merely ask they consider those people that would like centralized offically support place to air their views. I think your opinons to you are quite valid and I respect them on that basis, but please allow me to have mine and if you do not, I suggest you look in the mirror for the selfish one. Take care. I respect your opinions except one. I would not have even posted if you did not demand compensation for the lack of forums. I have already shown you my reasons why above. You want official forums that is fine... just don't expect any kind of discount because you do not get them. Can you see from my points where this is irrational? Gods know how many times in my career individuals and companies wanted compensation far in excess of what the situation warrants. Perhaps my failing in my responses to you was not to isolate that one primary issue.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I'll play the game regardless but voted "bad thing". Currently I'm subscribed to 6 different forums in order to stay on top of any new developments that happen wit the game. Quite frankly that's a pain in the ass. I'd rather have one site I can go to every day to see if there is something new and exciting going on. It's certainly not a game breaker for me but official forums are just part of good customer service in my opinion. Cheers, Deathstiny Guild Master of Reborn Reborn
You can't really compare the flow of "information" now to what will take place once the game launches... All the stuff you're visiting 6 difference sites to get your hands on now is in a lot of cases exclusive content. Interviews, articles, etc. Once the game launches, all important info concerning the game, be it bugs, patch notes, issues, upcoming changes, anything, will be posted ONE place, on the WAR Herald.
Played DAoC for a few years and I never had trouble with contacting Mythic Reps/CM's. In my opinon I'd much prefer Mythic reps to get out and among the people visiting and thereby supporting a multitude of fansites. And in my experience that happened in the past and appears to be happening still.
You'll also find that the community will gravitate towards a single forum. In DAoC VN boards were the main place to ask advice, put links to more specific class sites. Community seemed to be quite strong even without official forums. If I had to say which community I enjoyed being a part of most it'd be DAoC. SWG and WoW forums made it far too easy to level crap at the community.
I'll play the game regardless but voted "bad thing". Currently I'm subscribed to 6 different forums in order to stay on top of any new developments that happen wit the game. Quite frankly that's a pain in the ass. I'd rather have one site I can go to every day to see if there is something new and exciting going on. It's certainly not a game breaker for me but official forums are just part of good customer service in my opinion. Cheers, Deathstiny Guild Master of Reborn Reborn
I can only agree with you Deathstiny.
Central forums are simply a need. In WoW there so many rumors going around about every future aspect of game. Only when a "blue" post comes out then its 100% confirmed/rejected. And yes i dont want to browse xx forums to find out this.
I disagree offical forums are a "must have".. important information and support is provided by the herald and they got a number of ways for the community to provide feedback. The only thing a forum with a offical stamp on it would provide is a place for a tiny but very vocal part of the community to come out and complain, whine, and in general think they are smarter then everyone including the devs.
I'm not saying everyone is like that but a offical forum is hardly the greatest source for good feedback..
Definitely agree with the poster above me. WoW would have been a huge success regardless of if they had official forums or not.
Secondly, I'm really tired of WoW being used as the barometer of what a successful MMO is. This isn't so much pointed at you directly, just taking this moment to drop a general rant from all the "Will it kill WoW?" threads I see everywhere. A MMO doesn't need to have NEAR the number of subs that WoW has to be a success. By that standard every single MMO to date other than WoW has been an abysmal failure, which simply isn't the case. DAoC was a HUGE financial success and it never topped more than about 300k subs in it's prime. Both it and UO are still hugely profitable and therefore still financially successful with their current sub counts. Heck, even AC and AO are still kicking and bringing in profit after all these years.
The Official Forums serve as an effective means of consumer feedback: You can only do so much testing in house (or on a test server); the hundreds of thousands more playing your game will be more exhaustive in terms of finding errors and bugs for quality control.
Nearly everything I had ever seen on the WoW forums en masse was addressed in one patch or another, since the developers had a sufficient sample size to determine what the population wanted or what was wrong with the status quo at that time.
Persistent online games need feedback like that, since they rely on subscriptions; if there is a mechanic or feature that is annoying the hell out of the playerbase that has already reached the maximum level, then how are you going to know about it?
The problem I see with fansites taking the reins is that there will be no concentration of information/feedback from which the developers can introduce new features or correct existing ones: It is much harder to obtain an accurate portrayal of the population's sentiments when you have several different fan sites (which may or may not be reliable) that might or might not have intersecting users and/or moderators that delete posts to skew data.
The only logical reason I can think of for them not to have official forums is a lack of funding, in which case they might be able to create some after they have generated enough revenue to act as capital for new projects.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
lack of funding, in which case they might be able to create some after they have generated enough revenue to act as capital for new projects.
My guild has an official forum and we make no money, as do many other guilds. Darkfall has an official forum and most people think that game is vaporware. The funding argument is not valid. Does their beta test have a forum? If it does, it is probably hypocritical on their part. Why? Because it's the best way to collect information from your players. Why would it be any less meaningful when the game goes live? I hope for their sake, there is a beta forum at the very least
Not having a centralized forum for opinions questions and such is just bad hence why I never actually played DAoC. I had too many questions and they didn't provide any proper answers.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW... It all sucked.
Please anyone... show me official forums that are mainly used for constructive feed back to help the game. Also has to be better then 30% of the subscriber base active on the forums (at least post once a week)...
anyone?
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Comments
I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, The dreams in which I'm dieing are the best I've ever had.
Bad thing imo.
IMO it's great!
less whine you say?
less whine you say?
Did I say that? Power and control for the companies.
Name another game that invited the leaders from all the fansites out there to their HQ, let them play the game for hours, have hours of Q&A time, and the entire trip was "all-paid."
No they sure don't care about their community at all. hahaha.
They had no Official Forums in Camelot, and that game was far from "inferior." There are also more than a couple of guys that keep up with the feedback they find on the fansites. Just go to warhammeralliance and hit the DevTracker and you'll see how involved they are in the development.
Your assumptions are horribly mistaken.
---------------------------------------------
I live to fight, and fight to live.
It’s a good thing that Mythic has decided not to run official forums seeing there are so costly as surely they would discount the monthly subscription fee by not offering a service that most other MMO’s do..
Simply fact of the matter is, its not relevant if OF provide a good source or bad source of information as it’s a service to customers other MMO companies provide that Mythic has chosen not too.
It’s just another company trying to make money without having to provide a level of service to its paying customer base and keeping them at arms length.
I quote from Richards own words:
How in any way are we showing we don't want to listen to our community when we are providing means for the community to speak to us directly, just not official forums.
You’re not listening now about something that a lot of posters here consider irrelevant when the poll clearly shows that most are in favor of. After all, if OF requests are ignored I would imagine anything game related will more then likely be also.
If you don’t believe the poll here, Mythic should run their own and see what information they get from it, but sorry any company telling me what’s good for me and they know better when I expect a particular level of service that other companies provide just ticks me off.
That level or arrogance to its paying customer base is deserving of a vote from my hip pocket if I'm paying the same subscription as other mainstream MMO companies who do go the extra mile of providing offical forums.
There was a really good interview with the CEO of Guild Cafe given recently on Gamasutra. He made a very good point as I see it on why Official Forums aren't really that beneficial.
www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php
To what degree do you think developers and publishers rely on outside community with MMOs?
Originally, it was more about trying to control the community by creating some in-house forums run by overworked moderators. Now it is about engaging in conversations with your players and prospective customers. Those conversations happen everywhere—on outside forums, on blogs, on places like GuildCafe. The in-house forums are a tiny minority of very dedicated players; to really grok your community you need to go outside your walls and interact with people.
Official forums are and always have been the vocal minority of a player base. To really understand your community, you need to visit these fan operated sites as more of your community uses those far more than they use any kind of official forum. Mythic has just decided that the vocal minority isn't what they want to focus on. They've also said if you don't want to play their game because they don't have official forums, that also is alright with them.
The whole aspect of a lower monthly payment with the lack of official forums is flawed. What it allows them to do is hire another programmer, or another artist, or put that money into a different system that can be of a greater benefit than some website a tiny minority of the playerbase will post on that ends up with no real discussion of any true value.
How in any way have official forums been helpful to the developers? Usually it is a small subsection of the consumer base that posts and usually it is all complaining. Cries for nerfs, buffs, class imbalance, lack of devs listening.
Yes I can see where forums are an essential part of an MMO experience. /sarcasm
The Devs have already shown they frequently visit fan sites and siphon off constructive suggestions. Lets totally forget the fact that Mythic is also helping to drive traffic to community centers which helps gather people of the same interest to resources to help them play the game better.
There is nothing you can say to justify official forums. It is a luxury with little benefit to players or the company. Just because you want an official soap box to complain on does not justify the need for it.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Are you serious?How in any way have official forums been helpful to the developers? Usually it is a small subsection of the consumer base that posts and usually it is all complaining. Cries for nerfs, buffs, class imbalance, lack of devs listening.
Yes I can see where forums are an essential part of an MMO experience. /sarcasm
The Devs have already shown they frequently visit fan sites and siphon off constructive suggestions. Lets totally forget the fact that Mythic is also helping to drive traffic to community centers which helps gather people of the same interest to resources to help them play the game better.
There is nothing you can say to justify official forums. It is a luxury with little benefit to players or the company. Just because you want an official soap box to complain on does not justify the need for it.
You missed my point, as i stated it's not relevant if the forums are helpful or not to the developers, but it is to ME as a would be paying customer and judging by the poll to others as well. It may not be to YOU as thats fair enough, but it comes down to a level of service that I expect for my dollar, if they do not wish to provide it that is their choice, but by the same token I should at lest get a discount if others provide it at the same cost.
I'm sure the game will be a success and I hope it is, but is it being unreasonable for me to ask for something that other MMO's provide as a standard level of service, thats all I am saying.
It all comes down to a choice, you say they are not needed and i respect that, and i say I would like them, can you not respect my opinon on the matter? As at this moment in time, I have no choice, if they did support and provide offical forums, you would still have the choice of not partaking in that service.
Also I forgot to mention hence the edit, who said I would use them for complaining? If you look at my post count and join date say compared to your own, you would come to the conclusion that I was one of the silent majority who on this rare occasion merely decided to voice my opinon.
The problem is part of your point does not make any sense.
You say that other companies provide this as part of their service that you pay for. Fair enough, but what they spend on forums comes out of every other aspect of the company. Less QA, DEV, and other resources that go into the game. To say you should get a discount is a failed argument. What they do not spend on forums will go to other aspects of the game itself.
Are you arguing that you would rather have forums then more content or bug fixes?
There is also a question of necessity. If there are 3 - 4 major sites the company participates in (forums) how is that any different then having official forums? If they make the same posts and respond to threads how is that any different other then location and moderation?
While you can argue that you would not complain, history dictates the majority of the people voting for official forums would.
Like I said you cannot give reasonable argument for official forums except selfishness. While you do have a right to be selfish it does not mean your points are correct and hiding behind consumerism does not change that fact.
edit:
As to the argument of choice. You do have a choice. WAR has arguably the most open development of any MMO to date all without official forums. If you are not going to the forums to argue then you must go to get information. Mythic has enabled the fan sites to provide more game information then most other companies. You have the choice on which sites relay that information the best and which have the most interaction with mythic and GW. This gives you more of a choice then if I had to go to the official boards to get information. You have a several tiered choice... I would only have 2 options.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
The question here should not be "Why won't WAR have official forums?"
But.."Will EA/Mythic have some sort of feedback system for players to expres their concerns and the developers to respond?
Forums are the normal way to do this, but it's not impossible they will have another method.
If they use the DAoC model then yes there will be. Also they are using the fan sites for feed back so I really think this is a none issue.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
ArenaNet's GuildWars
Good point BUT imo you have to learn mixing both ways. WoW can be again a good example.
Hmm, in 2 post I'm either a complainer, or that I am selfish. I think you for your wisdom in pointing that out.
Ok point by point.
Cost of forums.
I have no idea how much that would be i must confess, I would imagine it wouldn't be a large part of the cost of subscription, I could be wrong, but I think its fare to say it doesn't cost as much or other companies would either follow the same rules as Mythic has done or charge a little extra to cover it. So the point of funneling the extra cash saved in to continued development of the game probably is a weak argument. Most business who cost cut do so to increase the bottom line.
Also if a game is doing very well or poorly, the development team size will be dictated accordingly.
Necessity and Ease
It would be easier for me to go to one site then 3-4 major sites, and i would imagine easier for the developers also. After all, by your argument, they would have to visit all 3-4 major sites to answer the same questions. Besides, like I have stated it would be easier for a 41 year old working family man with many responsibilities like myself not to waste time jumping from site to site when I could just visit one.
Flaming
If there are or are not offical forms, flaming will still occur anyway, how is that a justification in not having them?
No argument for having forums and being selfish.
We could argue the pro's and cons till the cows come home, I merely state that it would be better for myself and judging again by the poll for others as well and its as simple as that. As for being selfish i don't really understand how I am being that way. To be selfish would be deny you something that I have which i should share. I therefore ask you in a civil manner, is it unreasonable for me to expect offical forums which the majority of other mmo's provide? I should not have to argue and justify something that appears to be an industry standard.
Choice.
Your argument is not valid, there will still be fan sites for you to visit as well as myself. Mythic's choice and your opinons deny me mine, I do not deny you yours, who by that analogy is being selfish?
At the end of the day Mythic will do as they see fit, I merely ask they consider those people that would like centralized offically support place to air their views.
I think your opinons to you are quite valid and I respect them on that basis, but please allow me to have mine and if you do not, I suggest you look in the mirror for the selfish one.
Take care.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Played DAoC for a few years and I never had trouble with contacting Mythic Reps/CM's. In my opinon I'd much prefer Mythic reps to get out and among the people visiting and thereby supporting a multitude of fansites. And in my experience that happened in the past and appears to be happening still.
You'll also find that the community will gravitate towards a single forum. In DAoC VN boards were the main place to ask advice, put links to more specific class sites. Community seemed to be quite strong even without official forums. If I had to say which community I enjoyed being a part of most it'd be DAoC. SWG and WoW forums made it far too easy to level crap at the community.
Central forums are simply a need. In WoW there so many rumors going around about every future aspect of game. Only when a "blue" post comes out then its 100% confirmed/rejected. And yes i dont want to browse xx forums to find out this.
I disagree offical forums are a "must have".. important information and support is provided by the herald and they got a number of ways for the community to provide feedback. The only thing a forum with a offical stamp on it would provide is a place for a tiny but very vocal part of the community to come out and complain, whine, and in general think they are smarter then everyone including the devs.
I'm not saying everyone is like that but a offical forum is hardly the greatest source for good feedback..
Agree ^ so can I get a beta account?
The Official Forums serve as an effective means of consumer feedback: You can only do so much testing in house (or on a test server); the hundreds of thousands more playing your game will be more exhaustive in terms of finding errors and bugs for quality control.
Nearly everything I had ever seen on the WoW forums en masse was addressed in one patch or another, since the developers had a sufficient sample size to determine what the population wanted or what was wrong with the status quo at that time.
Persistent online games need feedback like that, since they rely on subscriptions; if there is a mechanic or feature that is annoying the hell out of the playerbase that has already reached the maximum level, then how are you going to know about it?
The problem I see with fansites taking the reins is that there will be no concentration of information/feedback from which the developers can introduce new features or correct existing ones: It is much harder to obtain an accurate portrayal of the population's sentiments when you have several different fan sites (which may or may not be reliable) that might or might not have intersecting users and/or moderators that delete posts to skew data.
The only logical reason I can think of for them not to have official forums is a lack of funding, in which case they might be able to create some after they have generated enough revenue to act as capital for new projects.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
My guild has an official forum and we make no money, as do many other guilds. Darkfall has an official forum and most people think that game is vaporware. The funding argument is not valid. Does their beta test have a forum? If it does, it is probably hypocritical on their part. Why? Because it's the best way to collect information from your players. Why would it be any less meaningful when the game goes live? I hope for their sake, there is a beta forum at the very least
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Not having a centralized forum for opinions questions and such is just bad
hence why I never actually played DAoC. I had too many questions and they didn't provide any proper answers.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
Please anyone... show me official forums that are mainly used for constructive feed back to help the game. Also has to be better then 30% of the subscriber base active on the forums (at least post once a week)...
anyone?
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.