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Are we looking at Assist trains or just WoWiefied zerging?
Dowie
Member Posts: 280
So, the thing i enjoy the most in DAOC and have been for as long as i've played the game is the assist trains. Just love roaming around in emain (argamon nowdays) to meet maybe an other 8-manner or maybe even the hib zerg. And if i die i wait for RvR illness to dissapear and repeat.
This i can do for ages. But my worries is that the people going to play this game are way to "wowiefied" to be able to follow a command by the group leader. Then it all will end up with becoming an other WoW BG. I must say im a bit scared of what this game is becoming, the thing that worries me the most is the instancing. I where acually hoping for Huge sized city seiges, but it will only be a 30 VS 30 instance battleground (it was 30 VS 30, right?). Im trying not to compare with WoW but i just can't stop, WoW's PvP is just so damn horrible that everything close to it makes me shiver in fear. Im not a doomsayer, just saying that im worried that this game could go in the wrong direction, maybe it's just me beeing paranoid.
This i can do for ages. But my worries is that the people going to play this game are way to "wowiefied" to be able to follow a command by the group leader. Then it all will end up with becoming an other WoW BG. I must say im a bit scared of what this game is becoming, the thing that worries me the most is the instancing. I where acually hoping for Huge sized city seiges, but it will only be a 30 VS 30 instance battleground (it was 30 VS 30, right?). Im trying not to compare with WoW but i just can't stop, WoW's PvP is just so damn horrible that everything close to it makes me shiver in fear. Im not a doomsayer, just saying that im worried that this game could go in the wrong direction, maybe it's just me beeing paranoid.
Comments
Do you think 10-12 years old kids will play as a team?
Will they "pwn" on their own or try to accomplish map goals?
about WoW:
Have you ever played with an organized group in BGs? I mean where everyone knows their role without anyone telling them what to do.
Conclusion:
You know what the answer is.
the level of focus needed to be in an elite 8v8 group and a "premade" group in wow are LIGHTYEARS apart!
for every video you show me of a supposed elite premade powerful pwn wow guild I will show you 5 DAoC videos with people actually assist/focus fire and healers actually heal with manna effectiveness.
To get in a 8v8 group you needed to be able to assist, kite REALLY well and be a support class and know your role and think fast.
To get into a "premade" group for wow, you only need to have gear.
In wow people will spam general chat "LFM for premades"
In DAoC you could send the members of an 8v8 group tells for hours and even weeks and still get in
I highly dobut there will be "emain like" 8v8 in war. this is because they have no classes with speed. part of what made 8v8 groups work was that they where mobile, agile, hostile. I wouldnt expect "ZERGS" to roam around the place either since the major battles are in tier 4. but guess what? If you talk about it enough on the message boards.... they will prob make changes to the game to promote more of the daoc 8v8 style of play. This is a company that is known for listening to the community and making changes as we have seen.
I will take daoc's CC over WoW's cc anyday though, I have no problem with CC as long as it makes sense.
DAoC had 3 main classes that could CC. Healer, Sorc and Bard. Healer had no offense and no passive buffs so when you speced to CC you lost out on healing. Bard was in the same boat, and sorc.... ok we wont talk abotu sorc.
But there was no class that could CC and then kill you. Unlike wow where the 4 best CC classes (mage warlock Rogue hunter) are also the 4 best damage classes. Getting imobilized and then killed is too much power. And then CC once CC'd you couldnt get CC'd again for 1 minute. There was no chain stunning like wow no chain sheeping and no chain rooting. Infact you couldnt really chain SLOW people either. DAoC cc worked well towards the middle of the game when casters werent killing you in under 10 seconds. when damage was lower CC on group lasted 20 seconds on average.
CC was also ballanced in that it effected hybrids and casters alot and tanks not at all. I wish wow let poor tanks become more resistant to CC, especially prot tanks.
I don't think you need to worry about the pvp in this game being like others.
I don't know of many other games where there is collision detection for player characters. This single change sets up so many possibilities for formations, battle plans, and "plays" similar to what you see in sports. It is rather simple and ingeneous. Also, hopefully it will get rid of the silly "taunt" that is found in too many games. So I think it is safe to say that pvp will have a different feel.
Mythic saw the problem with this and so implemented the 1 minute immunity timers. I believe (purely conjecture based on the removal of CC in WAR) that Mythic would have liked to remove CC from DAoC but it was too ingrained in the fundamental gameplay that it would be impossible to do so. With WAR, they've been given a chance to learn from DAoC's flaws and have developed the gameplay to not need CC or long duration buffs. And this is a brilliant move. If WAR can remove CC and long duration buffs and still make the game engaging, why can't other upcoming MMOs follow the same path? This is what I see as truly genre changing as well as thinking outside the box. Every MMO I've played to date has required some form of CC, going as far back as the Enchanter class in Everquest designed as a pure CC class.
A couple games have included collision detection, Everquest being the primary game to do so. However, it wasn't truly a PvP based game except on the few PvP flagged servers. CD will be so nice to have back in effect.
I don't even think crappy WoW PvP needs to be mentioned since it's so awful noting will compare to it.
I think of WAR RvR//PvP as Guild Wars but with a meaning. You find a team and you go out either "FFA" PvP in the PvP areas or join a goal based battle to help the overall WAR.
If the combat is fun I could play this game until the end of the world by pure gaming joy.
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
They will have to adapt themselves to the gameplay, which is obviously group oriented rather than solo play.
Isn't what they are trying to do is have areas where those who want the even match ups can have it and those of us who dont care about "fair" will also have a place, eliminating the "you stole me kill, you added" whines?
Sounds like if you want 8v8, 30v30 you can go to an instance and if you just want to go in "big rvr" where you never know what you will run into (which i like much better) you can.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
In AV (which i maxed rep in and then quit the game) in WoW I eventually learned to spot a few people who knew what they were doing. When the sh*t hit the fan, such as the alliance summoning their big boss, I would try to stay around those guys and help out with the appropriate strategy. In this case kiting the guy to the enemy boss back to the base and having them kill it. As a druid I had a list of a few hunters and warriors I would heal who would do this even though only about 10 out of the 30 players even knew what to do.
This sort of behavior, my behavior, is actually what most competent non-retarded people do. As long as they are given enough time and are able to get together with people they recognize as not being idiots. The veterans getting together and finding competent people to do the job and shouting down idiots.
What would happen in an AV match was that 10 people knew what they were doing, another 10 people would listen to the people who knew what they were doing and 10 noobs wouldn't listen and 10 aholes acted like aholes. Usually someone just decided they would tell everyone what to do, because if they don't you just get like of the good ones doing something when you need 10 or 15. And only the most basic tactis could be reliably executed because its was like riding a bucking horse.
On the rare occasion when I got in an AV with 20+ pros we decimated things. It was nice like clockwork. People would say hey is anyone working on wolf pelts. Two people pipe up and say "I will". Some other guy would hey we have trouble here only two people go. And hey they would listen! In those cases it was either kinda run by consensus or sometime there was a guy or two everyone knew was really good and was perfectly willing to listen to.
But see this very competence is a problem beause then teams like this demolish pick up teams. At one point AV could join as team/raid and the big guilds would destroy everyopne. Then they switched to random.
Both solutions are bad. The randomness makes it so that competence and experience cannot be recognized and that some sort of command or coordination by the pros can't happen. But letting the big guilds exclusively beat up on everyone is no good either, since they would not let anyone else in on the party and would go in with just their guild team.
You must have some way to encourage and allow for a veteran core. Look at Planetside with its command ranking/advancment. That is the sort of thing you need.
OMG thank you! WoW prot tanks like myself have only 1 yes 1 ability that is really worth a darn in PVP, Concussion blow. Too bad it's really our only stun and it last for like 8 seconds, with a 45 second cool down.
We do have a talent to be more resistent to charm/stun effects, but wait, it's in the arms tree, not the prot tree. And it only goes up to 15%. so we resist 1 out of every 6-7 stuns/charms.... but wait, they don't have 45 seconds timers on their one stun, no they have low cooldowns and multiple stuns so us protection warriors are f'd.
combine that with low damage output (especially now in comparison to other dps specced classes) and the fact that we have NO way to remove slow movement effects other then a trinket you can get at level 11 lol and we are f'd. anybody can kite a warrior to death with a simply slow effect.. but wait we can intercept! hhaha too bad you're already dead, or when you intercept you get 1-2 hits then they just slow/stun you again
only chance a prot warrior has is 1vs1 against another melee class. all that armor and defense comes in handy then.
but shaman/hunters/mages/druids/rogues/warlocks/priests(shadow) and paladins can all hold their own in any 1vs1.
good thing we are so useful in PVE/raids.... but I wanna PVP sometimes too! lol
oh wait, they let us tank the generals in Alterac Valley. too bad that's still PVE in a PVP battlground...
i'm not asking to be uber in PVP, i'm just asking for a fair shot. make us tanks immune or highly resistent to stuns/cc/slows and increase bonuses/stats that our defense skill raises. make us truely hard to kill SOB's, and make taunt distract a player for a few seconds in PVP where they can only target the tank who taunted them, or someting.
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i'm not asking to be uber in PVP, i'm just asking for a fair shot. make us tanks immune or highly resistent to stuns/cc/slows and increase bonuses/stats that our defense skill raises. make us truely hard to kill SOB's, and make taunt distract a player for a few seconds in PVP where they can only target the tank who taunted them, or someting.
I am so tired of band-aid solutions to game balance.
How many games have you played where there were two seperate rulesets? One set of rules and skills for PvE and another set of rules and skills for PvP. Have you ever played a game where players were given additional resistances to damage against players that they didnt have against mobs? How many games have you leveled up then realised only 1/4 of your skills work against raid mobs? That is a piss poor way to make a game. Any developer that does this should be banned from ever making another game.
Get the balance between character classes right so that all skills and abilities are available in both PvE and PvP. Removing all crowd controll such as taunts, stuns, roots, and mesmerises from a game is a step in the right direction. If the overpowered skills that make combat unfun for another player are removed then the developers do not have to come up with lame rulechanges to fix the broken skills.
I would just love to see players really using the colision detection and developing tactics. Would love the see really challenging PvP, and not repetetive (my wow PvP experience consisted mostly of: Finding cloth user, Stormstrike, Earth Shock, Grounding totem, hoping for windfury procs, heal and repeat) I really want it to make me think and use lots of different skills, not like 5-6 buttons.
I look forward to being able to play a healer class that is not relegated to the back.
But my worry is that with collision detection, healing from the back may again become preferable to healing/meleeing. Because if you can get a few guys to keep the enemy off of you its more effecting healing your blockers than meleeing yourself.
At least with no collision, you can run right to the priest in PVP (if your not CCed first).
And i will be darned if I have to play yet another game where my team mates only want me to heal again.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
~J. Krishnamurti
I'm going to give mythic the benfit of the doubt. They created probably the most successful pvp game next to guildwars. They are also staying true to the warhammer lore. WOW BG's are actually fun. pure and simple childish mayhem. av can be won within 20 minutes by taking the opposite factions relief hut or aid station with a stealth group. but people chose to fight in the middle. DAOC offered much more of a challencge. you could roam with a group simply to kill of try to take an objective. There was no forced obligation to "WIN"
Both games offered alot of good times, and I'm sure warhammer will rise to the fun factor, and that's the important thing. Games are supposed to be fun.
I am hoping the High Elves get a Swordmaster of Hoeth type profession. If anyone in my group tells the healer to stop fighting, they will be put through a rather unpleasant series of events until it's ingrained in their usually thick skull that for the healer to stop means they become weak. Sometimes for people to finally have the light come on upstairs takes more than just an explanation.
As for the CC part...it doesn't exist. Snares and Slows will be in game, but those aren't CC. They don't remove you from combat, just make it harder to get to the person you want to attack. CD is very badly needed in a PvP game. It brings a whole new level of complexity and strategy to the game that has very sorely been missing. Now if you want to kill the ranged classes, you need to either hit them with your own ranged classes or you need to find some way around the line of enemies to get to them. The removal of stealth also is a huge positive. The only concern I have regarding CD is when taking on a single target by a large group of people that need to melee.
In DAoC, we'd have upwards of 30-40 people hitting one keep lord. With CD, there is no way we could cram that many people around such a small target and have them all be in range. I don't know how Mythic plans to address this, but I have no doubt it's one they are working on if they haven't already solved it.
And I am just not that type of healer: www.secretlivesofmobs.com/
I hope you guys are right though, because the VERY FIRST TIME that someone tells me to stop meleeing, to get into the rear and heal;
THERE WILL BE MUCH BLOODSHED AND VIOLENCE, AND CRYING TO THEIR MOTHERS!!
[And I meant: "At least in WoW, with no collision detection you can run straight to the healer(if your not CCed of course")]
the only funny part on wow pvp was maybe the av bg in the beginning there the games took 10h+ but now they are won within 15 mins .
i have played alot games with better pvp then in wow and since war is from the daoc makers i think they know how to bring fun into the game.
wow will just bring an addon 10 days before the war release (like they did with vanguard) to dont loose all their players
Conspiracy theory much? Are agents Mulder and Scully at your door asking about WoW or WAR?
I don't think Blizzard timed the release to screw over SOE. Yes they did push back the game, but tell me a Blizzard game that came out on time? Also... Vanguard did not have a 'set' date to come out (as far as I know) when Blizzard pushed back Burning Crusades. From what I am told Vanguard came out EARLY to offset financial difficulties...
But I could be wrong, there might just be men in black suits and sunglasses sitting around a table.. trying to find the best tactical ways to screw the competition... wait... they already do have that... its called: THE MARKETING DEPARTMENT!! *dum dum dum*
I'm not worried about WoW PVP. I am worried that the popularity of the IP and the fact that it focuses on RVR and PVP will draw a lot of WoW players who have it in there mindset that PVP works a certain way.
Just like in raiding,where the EQ people brought DKP systems to WoW, it was not absolutely necessary since loot dropped a lot more and in general it was easier to raid. But in their mindset DKP was necessary so they had to have DKP.
I am just worried that near endgame the 'healer must heal' mentality will reemerge, especially now that you can actually keep enemy forces away from the healers.