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Poll: Combat and adventure vs non-combat activities in games
Kelkyen
Member Posts: 45
Last week, a friend of mine and I had a debate about content in mmo’s. I want to poll the community here to get your opinions.
I feel that non-combat content (roleplay, exploring the world, markets and selling goods, collecting resources and crafting, player housing and decorating with stuff I collect, etc.) is important to making a virtual world. I like sandboxes where I can do what I want, and sometimes I can lose days just exploring or tinkering. I think players that enjoy these activities are so numerous that mmorpg’s would be foolish to ignore them.
My friend feels non-combat content is work, and after getting home from the job doesn’t want more work in his games. He wants adventure, action, and feels dev time (and in a way player time) devoted to non-combat adventure takes away from improvements to the adventure. More often than not non-combat tends to be solo, combat tends to be a group activity, and the group having fun together is what the games are all about. He thinks mmorpg’s that work on non-combat activities are filling their games with crap the majority of mmorpg players don’t want.
We discussed many of the games we played over the years, but the above two paragraphs summarize our opinions. I left out specific examples we discussed so you don’t concentrate on them.
What is your opinion? Do the poll and give a reply to support your opinion if you would please.
Extra credit - We also debated game mechanics. While I prefer fps combat, I still enjoy target and attack style (sorry I don’t have a better term) games where I tell my toon generally what to do but I don’t have to click to attack every second. I also believe older and perhaps some handicapped players are excluded from fps style games for real life physical reasons. My friend feels that fps style combat is far more enjoyable and can get the adrenalin going during tough battles. He feels that target and attack games are old fashioned, and players who can’t keep up may need to accept their limitations and not play. He feels the majority of the mmorpg player support his opinion. What is your opinion on this?
I feel that non-combat content (roleplay, exploring the world, markets and selling goods, collecting resources and crafting, player housing and decorating with stuff I collect, etc.) is important to making a virtual world. I like sandboxes where I can do what I want, and sometimes I can lose days just exploring or tinkering. I think players that enjoy these activities are so numerous that mmorpg’s would be foolish to ignore them.
My friend feels non-combat content is work, and after getting home from the job doesn’t want more work in his games. He wants adventure, action, and feels dev time (and in a way player time) devoted to non-combat adventure takes away from improvements to the adventure. More often than not non-combat tends to be solo, combat tends to be a group activity, and the group having fun together is what the games are all about. He thinks mmorpg’s that work on non-combat activities are filling their games with crap the majority of mmorpg players don’t want.
We discussed many of the games we played over the years, but the above two paragraphs summarize our opinions. I left out specific examples we discussed so you don’t concentrate on them.
What is your opinion? Do the poll and give a reply to support your opinion if you would please.
Extra credit - We also debated game mechanics. While I prefer fps combat, I still enjoy target and attack style (sorry I don’t have a better term) games where I tell my toon generally what to do but I don’t have to click to attack every second. I also believe older and perhaps some handicapped players are excluded from fps style games for real life physical reasons. My friend feels that fps style combat is far more enjoyable and can get the adrenalin going during tough battles. He feels that target and attack games are old fashioned, and players who can’t keep up may need to accept their limitations and not play. He feels the majority of the mmorpg player support his opinion. What is your opinion on this?
Comments
I am primarily a pvper-something your friend seems to like more-but i admit that there are days when i simply want to get on and play the market of craft certain things. A game that ONLY gives you combat is IMO incomplete. I rather have a balance between the 2. As an example look at EvE. Some of the top pvpers will call the crafters carebears even though they provide the ships/ammo they use. Their rebutal is that they have manufacturing alts...AHAH!!! there you have it.....
Many people love to play the market and craft, some of us like to get into the action asap. As far as controls FPS style is my favorite though the games which use it are either extinct or close to it. The future seems bright though with some fun FPS style games.
Non-combat content is very important, in my opinion. It seems to me like a reason to stay in the game and an activity to pursue when you're bored of fighting all the time. If combat alone could amuse me for so long I'd still just be playing the same FPSes over and over. Otherwise I think I'd be bored of an MMORPG inside of a month.
For the twitch combat, I love my FPSes but I think it just dilutes RPG combat. If I'm playing an RPG I usually want my character's abilities to decide the outcomes of things, not if I'm circle strafing or bunny hopping. If I shoot an arrow at someone and they evade it not by a stat but because they switched from holding down 'a' to holding down 'd' then I might as well be playing an FPS anyway (in which case, I might as well go play one without a grind and everyone does the same damage with the same weapons). Also I don't really want to try to control aiming, moving, and pressing keys for skills simultaneously.
Apparently a bunch of games are doing this now though. We'll see if they do better than the last batch. I'm going to try to get in beta for some of them but I'm really not very excited about them. They're not exactly building off a rich history sales wise when you consider DDO, Neocron, and Face of Mankind.
personally, i think a world without craft lacks depth, and immersion. crafting can be dull and tedious, but it can also provide a nice change from combat and creates in-game freindships as customers become contacts, and then can become freinds
i disagree with your freind one one another point, i often like solo combat and group craft - where you can chat to other players as you both gather your resources
as for the game mechanics, can anyone tell me which MMOs are twitch-based fps style? most are "turn based" (not like the old FF games or Heroes of Might and Magic where you would have an attack, while he waited, then he'd have an attack while you waited etc) since all attacks are really on timers as well as the cooldowns for feats / skills / special moves. if you need to initiate and aim each attack, then i would consider it fps-style combat. most are "turn based" - i dont know for sure, but i think AoC is somewhere between the two, and DF going fully FPS style with no target lock, where every draw of the bow, cast of spell, swing of sword has to be aimed and initiated
I'm pretty sure Neocron, Face of Mankind, and DDO. Of course, there is also PlanetSide and WWIIOL but they are purely billed as MMOFPS. Upcoming games include Huxley (supposed to be MMOFPS), Darkfall, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa, and Chronicles of Spellborn at least.
ah i was referring to MMORPGs where all aspects (aiming, intitiation of move etc, need to be initiated and controlled by the player - DDO certainly wouldnt fit into that catergory. I've not played the others since they dont appeal or are unreleased, but (erroneously) i was just thinking sword-and-sorcery type fantasy)
First off, I think it is important to note that I do not think RPing is a non-combat activity. I for one RP while I combat the enemy forces.
I do think your friend is right when he said the majority of MMORPG subscribers don't do non-combat activities. However, I do not think that the majority of people who do not want to participate in non-combat activities do not want them in their game. Most MMORPG players I know might not want to craft, but they want crafting in the game. Mostly because it adds to the community interaction in the game. It gives people a reason to go back to a city and conversate with others, because everyone goes to a city to buy new gear, whether that be at an auction house, player tent, or NPC.
Player housing, if done where it is instanced...meaning it is a solo task, I feel that it is not needed and would rather not have it. However, I do want player ran cities and communities. I want to be able to place or build a house in a player ran city and to have a mayor or whatever run the city. That adds to the community, unlike player housing that is instanced.
The majority of people do like to be combative in a game rather than non-combative, but I believe the majority want non-combative people in the game to help flesh out the community. As for FPS or RPG styled combat, I'd vote for both, but not in the same game. FPS games (MMOFPS) can be fun, just like MMORPG's. Both styles get tiresome after a while and both command a loyal following. So why not have both? For those that enjoy both, this gives them more things to do and games to choose from. We might play a MMORPG for a year or two and then take a break and play a MMOFPS for a while.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
I remember in mmorpgs I have played where there were people who didn't combat/level up. Instead opting for stuff like crafting or roleplaying. Variety is important, I think really in answer to the question.
So far 21 votes and 90.5% in my favor. I'd like to hear more opinoins from everyone.
To clarify fps vs click and attack, I'd consider EVE or original SWG as click and attack. EVE's ships arn't flown with a joystick, old SWG was /follow and /attack with some macros. I'd consider SWG Jump to Lightspeed as fps or twitch, and the NGE for SWG as well.
I think an MMORPG needs both, if you take CoH, I think the game loses something because there is no crafting. But I also think the the crafting needs to be relevant for your character, ie you can make useful stuff for your character. One of the things I found with WOW, is although I loved the crafting, when you get close to max level it becomes pointless because you can get far better drops than you can craft. I also think if crafting can be really dull in some games, like in Vanguard where they've tried to add an element of skill to the process, but sadly just made it a tedious. If you think about what skills a real craftsman has, it's very difficult to reproduce that in a game.
I agree with a previous poster that said instanced housing is a waste of time.
Personnally, I prefer RPG style combat over FPS style. I just like to watch my character as he does his thing.
Thanks to everyone who replied.
Actually, when it comes down to it, even a lot of the supposedly non-combat stuff is actually all about combat.
If you take the basic skills a MMORPG might give you: Melee, Magic, Crafting, Foraging - we still have a game that's all about combat. In the same way that a Real-Time Stragegy game is about combat in so far as all resource gathering and building is done to improve your units, in MMORPGs most crafting is about improving people's fighting skills. Although an individual might not be a fighter and prefer the crafting side of the game, their purpose is still in supporting the fighting.
There are a few games that do provide non-combat content, and it is usually is RP related - housing, clothes, decorations etc. These aren't needs as such though. Bringing in hunger as a factor creates a slightly different itch to scratch and opens up more crafing and harvesting possibilities. Political systems are another way to bring in non-combat opportunities. A back story and quests can provide non-combat content to some extent too.
Lets face it, even if you like combat there comes a point when your burned-out at the thought of killing another Random_Enemy_027. Non-combat content gives you something to do when that happens and allows you the time to have a chance to recover interest in combat.
I also feel that developers really haven't exploited non combat content very well. It usually feels rather tacked on and not very in depth.
I'm still waiting for a mmo that I can go and play cards with someone and bet in-game money on the hands. Or just play chess or checkers with a friend in-game.
Crafting is just one small facet of non-combat content that could go into a mmo, I think that even my wistful vision of a in-game casino and arcade are just the tip of the iceberg of what could be.
Anskier
Some of my best times in my MMO career have been spent doing completely unpreductive, non-combat, competely social things and events.
Sitting around a camp fire on Tatooin in SWG, dancing in a cantina in the far out outposts, decorating my house and live auctions in game. SWG had something for and FROM everyone and remains the reason why I believe the original version was one of the most inspired MMO's of our times.
I sincerely believe that the current crop of MMO's have missed out on a huge feature/option with their games. Non-social, engaging things to do are what set an MMO appart from a single player game, it's what binds the palyers together and makes it worth playing until 2 in the morning.
I don't care whether it's house decorating, starting a buisness with your own vendors, running a bar, joining a race, running a city as a politician or being part of a band. All of it, it's just as important as the combat system, the crafting system and the class system. If anything, it is MORE important.
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I realize that harvesting is just a means to get to craft things... but to me it's fun. Finding good spots or harvestable respawns, getting around the mobs protecting them, grabbing that herb or mineral or plant or other, and getting out past all the mobs.
Finding spots to mine that aren't in a quarry... going through dungeons seeing if there's any special minerals I can get mining there.
When I'm quarrying in an actual quarry, the type of place you're always going to get results and it's inside a town basicly, I keypress between chatting with my guild or surrounding players (provided they're not AFK macro) about good spots we've found or just life. Had a wonderful conversation about football when EQ2 first came out with a person I met in the Quarry, turns out he was from the same area as me and was also a Tampa Bucs fan... what were the odds.
Although I enjoy the crafting, I find that the harvesting is slightly more exhilerating in my mind. I love it.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
On the same note but hopefully not to harken to much to SWG, one of my favorites things to do in SWG was the resource harvesting.
Finding a good quality resource that rarely spawned and dropping a harvester on it, planning the fuels and harvesting times, owning large harvester farms. Entirely to much fun.
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I agree with a lot of posters here in that the non-combat is very important, but I think paying close attention to both and designing a system where they can interact and help/ be helped by others is the key. I like the non-combat and more social aspects of a game, but at the same time I personally need some kind of engaging combat system as well to balance it off. While it can be tough to institute both features with a well-developed and functioning system that compliments the other (combat vs. non-combat), I think we have the minds out there, and enough ideas to hash it out.
Just need an ear for it to fall on.
They're all Indy games though, and Indy MMOs rarely make it to market. (as a ratio of "worked on" : "released" )
It's a matter of money. It costs alot to make a game... and every complicated feature requires complicated brainstorming then complicated programming.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Oh man I completely agree! Why can't developers see the HUGE potential these features have?
I mean, lets look at it from an RP point of view. You're Don Juan the legendary, you've been out for days killing evil doers, on your path back home, you stumble upon an inn. You decide to stop in for a drink and maybe talk with the folks, you notice that there are a lot of gamblers in there as well. While you're taking a sip of your drink, one of them comes over and decides to challenge you to a game. You look into your pocket and you realize that you have enough coin to favor the thought of joining in a game. Is that not what RP is for?
would they do gambling games? probably not because I think it's considered illegal. But it doesn't have to be that way, it can be a chess game or something along those lines. My point is, as mentioned before, sometimes players can get a little burnt out and we want to do a small mini game to pass the time. heck if it's a problem of "Inn's can only hold as many chess games as there are tables." then simply make it so players can buy a mini game from an NPC so they can play the game somewhere else.
It's a matter of percentages though, no?
If a company decides right from word go that their game is going to be about more than combat and leveling and raiding, if they decide right from design that 40% of resources will be spent on combat/crafting systems, 20% on world mechanics and 40% on non combat, social activies.
I know these things are affectively decided from the start but if it's in the budget from the start, I don't see how financially it would make a difference.
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Why because when combat folks get bored eat through content they are traditionaly the first ones to leave till a new expansion or new area opens up. Those involved in the social side or crafting side tend to get heavily involved in the community want to do well with their chosen craft and if the in game tools are there find a way to become known on their server as the go to person for such and such.
What i find lacking in the betas and up coming releases is the social side of the game seems to be forgotten and the be all end all, who has the most quests.
Swg pre nge allowed players to use a skill based system that had one of the best crafting in any game. One could buy, sell ,harvest, make combine, have a vendor and become known for their specilaity. The real creative folks had their own flavors from interor design to
party planners event planers because the many tools the designers gave the characters it was possible.
I saw some amazing things in game from cordinated dances, to fish aquariams, to floors set up like a checker board all done with in game tools.
While we may never see that again what i would give for going into a tavern and dice rolling, card playing , seeing an animation of a brew , SIT down in a chair......
What about paddle boats and or canoes , that we could explore big lakes? Alternative modes of travel besides horses?????Carriages that held two people and go for a ride?
There just seems little to the new ones coming out, what about non armor and party clothes? The up and comings just seem to forgot about the other then combat.
I think it's probably right that the more social options you decide put in a game, the more work it is for the artists, designers and programmers, and so it is very much a matter of how much importance is put on each aspect when you're developing a game on a restricted budget and in a certain time frame.
The game I'm currently playing has all that stuff, including thousands of items to craft, roulette wheels and chess in the bars, and minigames (king of the hill, capture the flag etc) going on every day, but I'm playing a MUD, so there isn't the same need for spending miilions on the graphics guys to achieve that.
While I feel combat and adventure are very important to an MMORPG there has to be a place for non-combat activities in the game to flesh out the game! With out the non-combat activites you just have an MMOG! Examples of this are 9 Dragons, Dungeon Runners, and Guild Wars these are all good game but do not fit the bill of MMORPG and could very easily be made into a single player offline game! So in my opinion you need the non-combat professions and activities to create a virtual world to play in!
And to answer your second question, I think that is a matter of personal preference and to exclude players because of that is just plain foolish from a buisness stand point! You two also could have debated the pros and cons of click to move versus wasd or arrow keys to move! Which is also a preference thing!
You can't JUST design a non-combat game. Well, actually, you can. SecondLife, There.com... those are good examples. I'm more of a fan of There.com myself...
The problem is how to balance out making people want to join non-combatant roles with combat. I worked with a person at RR who once boasted about how a social-only game would succeed in the MMO space. How it was the best plan and idea for any MMO... well she kind of contradicted herself when she was stating the reason for playing WoW instead of a game like Seed. "Cause I can fight AND just RP in WoW... it's got both." Where do you balance?
The conversation continued and we eventually agreed something (this was almost a year ago so I don't have the exact quotes) akin to "Any well designed game can potentially have a social only aspect." After all, how often have you caught yourself logging into your favorite (or Guild) MMO just to chat with somebody cause you knew they were on? Or just to chat in general... I've done it tons of times.
Take a look at FoM:
Here is a neat shooter where the warring factions get together and bicker in some sort of diplomatic fashion... then they seperate and shoot each other up a bunch, then go back to the bickering. That's the whole game, that's their non-combatant concept. There's also crafting, the means to shoot each other up.
Some games go overboard (*cough*vanguard*cough*) and promise routes that would be completely non-combatant. Well, and I'm not sure, but last I gave that particular title a whirl the "Diplomacy Sphere" was something that resembled "Magic: The Gathering"... a great game, but I prefer to get together and play Magic (or WoW:TCG) with friends for the social aspect then combat some AI person in a game where I have to type /flush every 20 minutes, or I have to wait till somebody runs by cause of network problems.
Can non-combatant styles of play work?
Definately! There's lots of things you can do with non-combatants. One of my fondest memories at a LAN was playing Giants: Citizen Kabuto with Brando (sorry buddy, gonna put you out there) and rushing the Mecc base at full size to find Brando had spent close to 20mins setting up the whole base. Of course I did a belly flop and destroyed everything in a moment, but it's proof that games can appeal to people who wish to do things other then fight... even in an FPS.
...let it be known that the rest of the Meccs were already swarming me and as I did my "in your face" to Brando for wasting time I was killed. But hey, it's just a game... and I we were all drunk already anyways.
That being an extreme circumstance (FPS and not MMO), you can still put plenty of non-combatant things into MMOs that would not be boring. A well designed MMO will have this built in, albeit it might be a small part... but it should still be built well.
My best guess is you'll find it in an Indy MMO long before a large Publisher Funded one.
/end rant
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
I have not seen that function in any other game yet. The one's i have seen including betas have crafting capped at levels gained during combat/questing. So not only is the question how to balance both but could it be done without having to level a combat toon?