This is why City of Heroes is very appealing at the beginning. You aren't fighting rats and badgers. You're fighting thugs with baseball bats and sledge hammers. You actually feel somewhat powerful from the beginning because you can take on a small gang of them. I think CoH got it right here. Fighting a rat is lame at best. Having a rat beat you in a fight is just embarassing.
Obviously you've never seen the rats in NY City! I've run away from those things here - if I had to face some the size of what we are facing in the fantasy games: I'd be scared ^%&%@#$.
Originally posted by Cor4x
I can think of 2 reasons off the top of my head.
One, from the programming aspect... yes, programming AI for a few or 20 mobs wouldn't be that big of a deal. However, having thousands of mobs of which tens, if not hundreds of thousands of mobs are evaluating their environment every heartbeat would be pretty damned hard.
Two: The AI, programmed well, would slaughter the players. Easily. Computers have instant reaction times and perfect execution. They don't get bored or sad or angry or hungry or have to have a bio break.
QFT! I think Cor4x got it spot on.
The technology is there to do the AI like Amathe has mentioned, but it just isn't possible to scale it up into MMO size numbers. Perhaps some kind of compromise might work without causing too much lag though.
This is what I'm thinking of:
Mobs level 1-5: Random reaction from 2 AI scripts
Mobs level 6-10: Random reaction from 3 AI scripts
Mobs level 11-20: Random reaction from 4 AI scripts
Mobs level 21+: Situational AI - the reaction would depend on party size, party classes, etc.
I was thinking that if the lower level mobs didn't have to check for anything other than a random # to determine the AI that would maybe allow for the higher level mobs to have a more dynamic AI, but with the increasing # of random scripts for the lower level mobs - it would create a bit more variety than what we see now.
So, in a typical low-level setting in attacking that wolf:
Player/Party A: attacks a level 12 wolf - one time it may attack them to the death like we mostly see now - another time it may run away as soon as it's attacked - another time it may attack at first and then try to flee - and yet another time it may run away as soon as the Player/Party is spotted, only to return a short time later with a whole pack of wolves.
All completely determined at random; yet adds a bit more variety to just the standard grinding level mob. At level 21+ then the mobs would start to use even more reactions more customized to the actual situation and not based on just a random # selection.
Would that work scaled up to MMO needs? Perhaps the exact level break-outs and the # of scripts could be adjusted to make it work. You'd think that at some level there would be enough CPU cycles available to get some more variety in the AI. Well, if we throw around enough ideas like this perhaps some industrious developer will run with it and let us see if they work or not.
So, in a typical low-level setting in attacking that wolf:
Player/Party A: attacks a level 12 wolf - one time it may attack them to the death like we mostly see now - another time it may run away as soon as it's attacked - another time it may attack at first and then try to flee - and yet another time it may run away as soon as the Player/Party is spotted, only to return a short time later with a whole pack of wolves.
All completely determined at random; yet adds a bit more variety to just the standard grinding level mob. At level 21+ then the mobs would start to use even more reactions more customized to the actual situation and not based on just a random # selection.
Would that work scaled up to MMO needs? Perhaps the exact level break-outs and the # of scripts could be adjusted to make it work. You'd think that at some level there would be enough CPU cycles available to get some more variety in the AI. Well, if we throw around enough ideas like this perhaps some industrious developer will run with it and let us see if they work or not.
All that sounds GREAT, but very hard to maintain. Its not that hard to code it, but maintain, yes. Imagine a world with a million mobs. Each mob requires a tiny split second to make that or another decision. Multiply by a million and we have a huge CPU overload on the company server.
Programming some kind of smart AI requires a really powerful CPU to actually execute that AI every split second. Thats why most games have rudimentary AI, the one that can react in the most basic terms, attack if attacked, assist their friends, perhaps pick the best attack target (kill healers/lowest HP first) but anything as complex as real life (assessing group strength, intelligent behavior) will be too hard to do atm IMO.
The most immersive MMO I've ever played (and it can't really be called an MMO) was a player run NWN server. It was VERY immersive. Of course it was an RP server, which really is the only way to get a lot of immersion for very little code.
There were the obvious limitations of the engine, as in mobs spawning, etc, but a LOT of the rest of the game was so immersive and realistic. Here are a few examples:
- You had to have a reason to kill mobs.
This was pretty cool, but limiting at the same time. If you wanted to bash on goblins, you had to have some reason your character would be there killing. Maybe you made a pass by their settlement every once in awhile in the effort to 'keep their population down'. If you were killing them too often, your actions might be deemed sadistic and 'evil' since they are a sentient race (although not the brightest matches in the box).
For woodland creatures, it was generally acceptable to kill some here and there for supplies. Non-woodsy types typically didn't care much about protecting any animals they saw, but at the same time weren't ok with slaughtering sprees. The more woodsy types (e.g. elves etc) abhored killing woodland creatures except for self defence. Some went so far as to religiously kill on site any sentient being seen killing or generally damaging the forest in any way.
- Your every action resonated with the playerbase.
- If you were caught stealing from a player or NPC while in town, you were fined and given a punishment based on whatever record you had in that town - Some people were eventually banned from town or jailed, etc.
- If you attacked someone unprovoked and it was witnessed by another player, that affected your character's reputation to all who knew you - It could mean you might not get into the paladin's guild or something like that.
- If an unusually epic, one time event happened, of which you were the primary or part of the primary adventurers in this event, a statue might be raised in your name...likewise your opposition and allies of your opposition might consider you more of a threat, and offer bounties for your death.
- If you fell out of grace with a school of learning, say for magic, you could be cut off from learning new magic, save for your own reasearch - Something that obviously was very rough on mages
- If you did one large or several small attrocities in the eyes of your diety, your diety-granted powers (i.e. a cleric's 'spells') could be stripped, and you reduced to a shunned version of your former status.
- Your character built a reputation
At first, your character sought to become involved in the world, but if you played your cards right, eventually the world looked to get you involved - You really feel like a hero when someone comes to YOU with a quest instead of the other way around!
Anyway I could go on and on, but man that server was the most immersive OG I've ever been a part of. Of course this relies heavily on administrative powers of the GMs, but wow it really makes gameplay exciting.
nethervoid - Est. '97 [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1 20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
All that sounds GREAT, but very hard to maintain. Its not that hard to code it, but maintain, yes. Imagine a world with a million mobs. Each mob requires a tiny split second to make that or another decision. Multiply by a million and we have a huge CPU overload on the company server.
Programming some kind of smart AI requires a really powerful CPU to actually execute that AI every split second. Thats why most games have rudimentary AI, the one that can react in the most basic terms, attack if attacked, assist their friends, perhaps pick the best attack target (kill healers/lowest HP first) but anything as complex as real life (assessing group strength, intelligent behavior) will be too hard to do atm IMO.
Hmm... well what if they could figure out a way to have all the calculations for AI done on a separate AI server farm?
I realize that with these kind of MMO's each "server" is actually a conglomeration of separate servers all working together as a single server. So, for this added AI CPU cycles needed they add X number of servers to the farm for the needed instruction cycles. Wouldn't that work?
I understand that it's obviously increasing the development dollars yet again. First, more programming time to make the additional scripts, then even more programming time to add in all the if..then..else good stuff to keep the whole thing from crashing horribly, and then the actual additional hardware for the AI servers. But...what if it worked?
I guess what I'm thinking is that it seems like the AI could be it's own server farm with database calls from the other servers indexed back to the level or type of the mob. So, the actual server farm isn't doing the calculations - it's just making a call to the AI "server" which is actually running the calculations. Yeah, yeah... I know, an additional call is still eating up more time which in turn leads to more lag.
But, it does seem that with the right topography setup of the server farm that this additional call time could be minimized. And, like I was saying in the earlier post. Start out small with the added AI scripts and see what the performance hit is like and then scale it up to what the hardware can handle. They have some pretty bright hardware engineers working at these MMO's I'm sure they could figure out a way to do it.
Well, it is feasible; or am I just talking crap? I'm not a programmer, so I'm not sure how all this actually works behind the scenes. Just trying to think it through somewhat logically, at least in my mind; scary as that may sound.
Originally posted by anarchyart When was the last time you tried to fight a badger in real life? When you start out in an MMORPG you are supposed to be new in the world. I liken that to being a child. How do you think a 10 year old kid would fare against a full grown Badger even if he did have plate armor and a 2 hander? Sorry, I'm smiling now with the mental picture of a 10 year old kid in a full suit of armor trying to beat down a badger with a 2 handed sword. Anyways, the kid would probably get killed. At the very least an appendage chewed off.
I feel so silly for replying to this but...
It's funny you should mention fighting badgers because I actually have fought badgers in real life. Now a badger wouldn't normally attack a person but growing up on the farm I walked around with the dogs a lot. There were several times when they got into fights with coyotes, coons, and yes...the dreaded badger.
Of course I rarely had a gun with me when this happened. So here are my farm-boy bragging rights:
I've killed a coyote with a rock. Not thrown, I held it and hit the mangy varmit in the head while my dogs had it distracted.
I've also killed coyotes with wooden clubs. Whatever was handy.
Coons, well the dogs never needed help with those but I've clubbed some anyway. And a few times I felt sorry for them and saved them from the dogs.
Ah, and the dreaded badger. Believe this if you dare but I once killed a badger with nothing more than my boots. There were no clubs or rocks handy (out in the middle of a milo field). But my dogs wouldn't leave it so I kicked it repeately untill it died.
On a few other occasions I clubbed badgers with whatever was handy.
Oh, and I don't remember my exact age during all of these incidents but these thing happened all through my childhood and teen years. Oh, and I never did have a suit of armor.
God, I feel so silly for mentioning this stuff...but it's true.
LOL awesome story man. If you didn't have the dogs there how do you think you would have fared against the badger? Seriously, thanks for sharing. All the arguing and posturing gets so tired..it's nice to hear something like this now and then.
I feel so silly for replying to this but... It's funny you should mention fighting badgers because I actually have fought badgers in real life. Now a badger wouldn't normally attack a person but growing up on the farm I walked around with the dogs a lot. There were several times when they got into fights with coyotes, coons, and yes...the dreaded badger. Of course I rarely had a gun with me when this happened. So here are my farm-boy bragging rights: I've killed a coyote with a rock. Not thrown, I held it and hit the mangy varmit in the head while my dogs had it distracted. I've also killed coyotes with wooden clubs. Whatever was handy. Coons, well the dogs never needed help with those but I've clubbed some anyway. And a few times I felt sorry for them and saved them from the dogs. Ah, and the dreaded badger. Believe this if you dare but I once killed a badger with nothing more than my boots. There were no clubs or rocks handy (out in the middle of a milo field). But my dogs wouldn't leave it so I kicked it repeately untill it died. On a few other occasions I clubbed badgers with whatever was handy. Oh, and I don't remember my exact age during all of these incidents but these thing happened all through my childhood and teen years. Oh, and I never did have a suit of armor. God, I feel so silly for mentioning this stuff...but it's true.
Ahh... you spammed your drop-kick special and had your critical hits skill maxed as well. Didn't you know that's considered an exploit against the badger mob? Boy, are you in trouble now!
Is there any indication that we're starting out as 10-year-olds? Any at all? I mean, that'd be an interesting twist, but I don't see it. I guess that explains your positive nature. You adjust your view to fit the game. Some would call that healthy, others might call it oblivious. Me, I just wonder what kind of sick world would send thier little kids out to fight man-eating gophers.
LOL did you ever hear about the childrens crusades? Thousands of children and teenagers rose up in the year 1212 to take back Jerusalem. Very few ever returned.
Also, there really aren't any gophers in Vanguard. However, I do seem to remember some carnivorous chickens.
It may look like a gopher, it may sound like a gopher, but it ain't a gopher.
It's called fantasy and sometimes it isn't real.
Well of course it is fantasy and the op was not talking about that, he was talking about mob reactions in relation to immersion. I like this topic it did not have to be tied to Vanguard or any game really. I also am waiting for better ai. I do think it is coming as developers realize immersion can be the holy grail in mmos that keep the subscriptions renewing for years. One of the reason I left WoW after 6 months, a game iI enjoyed a great deal, was lack of immersion. I felt I was just playing a game. One reason I keep playing EQ2 after 2 years is it does a better job as immersion. Sometime I feel in the game world of EQ2 instead of just controlling it. Well if you go all the way in a realism then anything small should not be able to kill anything large (unless with poison). Which means that the world should be populated by giant everything, giant wasps, giant rats, giant giants...etc etc.
Except that because of body-dynamics and physics they couldn't exist.
An elephant is currently the biggest stompy-creature we have. They have pretty much maximal bone density at their size. (This is why an elephant won't walk down more than a very slight incline. Step in a hole and its leg goes snap.)
Insects work off of some weird flight physics. Make a giant wasp and... it couldn't fly.
No undead either as, as much as some might wish, don't exist. Neither do blasty-spells nor anything else.
So you'd have the middle ages. You're a newbie and WHACK! You're dead or maimed in 30 seconds. Sounds fun.
But seriously, I understand the want for a 'better game'. I'm with ya on that.
However, I'd like life to be like an MMORPG. That'd be great! I'll sign up for a lifetime subscription and my butt is playing a necro!
Observe the following:
"Step riiiiight up! Sell yer soul and get $1k real quick! No questions asked!" SKERACK! Essence emerald for meee!
Idiot in front of me at the ATM? Noooo problem.... *COR4X casts fear...*The old lady runs in fear!
Co-worker pisses me off? No problem!
COR4X's Bone Minion shuffles to attack Bothersome Co-Worker!
Bone Minion smashes Bothersome Co-Worker for 193 pts!
Bone Minion smashes Bothersome Co-Worker but misses!
Bone Minion kicks Bothersome Co-Worker for 93 pts!
Is there any indication that we're starting out as 10-year-olds? Any at all? I mean, that'd be an interesting twist, but I don't see it. I guess that explains your positive nature. You adjust your view to fit the game. Some would call that healthy, others might call it oblivious. Me, I just wonder what kind of sick world would send thier little kids out to fight man-eating gophers.
LOL did you ever hear about the childrens crusades? Thousands of children and teenagers rose up in the year 1212 to take back Jerusalem. Very few ever returned.
Also, there really aren't any gophers in Vanguard. However, I do seem to remember some carnivorous chickens.
There are badgers and I think wolverines (which also use the same model...).
However, these self-same badgers can run down and kill several armed heavy cavalry in a full charge so... those are not your average badgers.
However, neither the badger-of-doom or the heavy cav can do a single thing to the magic-invulnerable chickens-of-infinite-health. Try as you might. Drive a battle-tank right over them and they don't dent or wrinkle or even cluck. That is why they are so zen-like pecking as they do.
Originally posted by Cor4x COR4X's Bone Minion shuffles to attack Bothersome Co-Worker! Bone Minion smashes Bothersome Co-Worker for 193 pts! Bone Minion smashes Bothersome Co-Worker but misses! Bone Minion kicks Bothersome Co-Worker for 93 pts! Bothersome Co-Worker begins casting Idiot Drivel... Bothersome Co-Workers Idiot Drivel drools on Bone Minion for 38 pts! Bone Minion smashes Bothersome Co-Worker for 187 pts! Bone Minion kicks Bothersome Co-Worker for 93 pts! Bothersome Co-Worker whimpers and dies! COR4X gains adventuring experience! COR4X loots 1 Hot Girlfriend's Number from corpse of Bothersome Co-Worker. COR4X tries to loot 1 Blackberry Handheld, but it is LORE and he already has one! COR4X loots 1 ATM Card from corpse of Bothersome Co-Worker. COR4X loots 1 Key to a Porsche from corpse of Bothersome Co-Worker. <<WARNING! The Cops have been called and are on their way! You have been flagged as a PLAYER KILLER!>> COR4X begins casting Feign Death... COR4X appears dead... Cop 1 says: "Musta been a murder-suicide. Our work is done." Cop 2 says: "Lets get a bear claw and some coffee." COR4X says: "Woot fer me!"Ah. Daydreaming.
That's probably the best post this forum has seen in a very long time, if not ever.
If only life were that easy. Though, I'd have gone with a Shaman from WoW, personally. Self-rez? Instawin.
If the dogs hadn't been there I doubt if I would have even known the badger was around. And I wouldn't have bothered it if I had known.
But really, badgers are no serious threat to a human being. They can't outrun you and one wouldn't want to fight with you unless maybe it had rabies. They are tough little bastards though, I'll admit that. They have very thick hides. But one could never do much to a human being unless he deliberately let it bite him.
"Ahh... you spammed your drop-kick special and had your critical hits skill maxed as well. Didn't you know that's considered an exploit against the badger mob? Boy, are you in trouble now!"
Originally posted by Neanderthal If the dogs hadn't been there I doubt if I would have even known the badger was around. And I wouldn't have bothered it if I had known. But really, badgers are no serious threat to a human being. They can't outrun you and one wouldn't want to fight with you unless maybe it had rabies. They are tough little bastards though, I'll admit that. They have very thick hides. But one could never do much to a human being unless he deliberately let it bite him. "Ahh... you spammed your drop-kick special and had your critical hits skill maxed as well. Didn't you know that's considered an exploit against the badger mob? Boy, are you in trouble now!" Crap, I hope I don't get banned.
If the dogs hadn't been there I doubt if I would have even known the badger was around. And I wouldn't have bothered it if I had known. But really, badgers are no serious threat to a human being. They can't outrun you and one wouldn't want to fight with you unless maybe it had rabies. They are tough little bastards though, I'll admit that. They have very thick hides. But one could never do much to a human being unless he deliberately let it bite him. "Ahh... you spammed your drop-kick special and had your critical hits skill maxed as well. Didn't you know that's considered an exploit against the badger mob? Boy, are you in trouble now!" Crap, I hope I don't get banned.
Bet you'd sing a dif. tune if you were put in a small confined space with an incredibly pissed off badger.
Ever seen a pissed off posum. No joke, do not F with a pissed off posum.
Small, wild animals are a lot more vicious then people give them credit for; especially when that cute little guy feels like it's been cornered. Even a squirrel could kick your ass if it felt it needed to.
I used to have ferrets. One in particullar was an incredibly nasty thing. Tiny, smallest one I'd ever had, and the meanest. Thing pissed fire water, and if you went near her she wouldn't hesitate to go a round or two. I wouldn't go near that one. Threw the food in her cage and ran, no joke. She died of cancer. Felt really sad until I remembered the way she sunk her fangs into my arm. Never been bit like that by an animal before, and getting her to let go required ripping her from me along with a bit of my arm. Nasty little thing. Cute as a button to. I wouldn't tell people she was mean, let them figure it out on thier own.
yea, I cornered a possum once. Little bugger decided to come into my garage and stay abit without paying rent. Cornered it, it tried going up the wall, smacked it on the nose with a hockey stick, scooped it outta the corner, and tapped it's little ass all the way along the garage wall until it ran out the open door. Gave it one good slapshot so it wouldn't come back. Cornered possum might be pretty fearsome, but they don't like to play hockey. Always use Canadian solutions to life's little problems. Nothing that can't be settled with a hockey stick.
That's the problem in Vanguard, you get all kinds of fancy pantsy weapons, but no hockey stick.....and no roller blades.
The poster above with the green text really nailed it. People claim they want all of this "innovation" and "realism" on msg boards, but the fact is, every person claiming to want those things would bitch about them if they got them and then say "well it wasnt implemented right"
"Realistic" combat between two people with swords or one person with a sword and one who can hurl fire from his hands is that one person is dead VERY fast. Not sure where people get their personal view of "realism" but humans die pretty easily. How do you think a "realistic" group would fare against a dragon? Or even a giant? Why would being "level 50" make you any less fragile than being "level 1"? It wouldnt. Thats idiotic. A super trained human heavily armored and armed and worked out to the pinnacle of human achievement would be annihilated by a 16000lb, 20 foot tall man with a 500 pound club. Its that simple. And as for PVP balance, explain to me how a high level mage wouldnt destroy EVERYTHING. In a "realistic" game, magic would be a 1000 times more effective than melee could EVER hope to be. Give me a diamond skin type spell and a fire AE that casts either insta or in a few seconds and I could take out 5 delta force units before they could bring me down.
"Realism" isnt fun. I mean lets put perma death in there too. Some people even argue for THAT. I guess for them a "fun" game is just creating characters ad nauseum. It would be like this:
Create character
Venture into world
Stumble into random encounter with something that wants to kill you (realism means theres NO reason why a deadly creature couldnt be RIGHT near your "newbie" area) - lets say a rattlesnake
Attempt to defend yourself - swing sword
Get bitten on hand while swinging and die from poisoning since you're a 40 minute walk from "town" and have no ability to "heal" from a venomous bite anyway
Roll new char since that one is dead
That sounds AWESOME! Add in some disease and famine and you'd have a game! Why not add the risk of tuberculosis or the plague since you're living in a city with medieval level hygiene and rat infestations? I mean that would be realistic too.
Im sure people will say "well THATS not what I meant!" But then what do you mean really? Whats the middle ground between the above and what we have now? And why is that middle ground so necessary? What would it deliver for the effort? Complex run/fight/gang AI in a situation that is going to be hugely simplistic anyway seems pointless to me. OK, so the bear sometimes runs, sometimes fights and sometimes packs up... Big deal. You still cant bleed to death really right? You're still going to somehow get bitten and mauled over and over by a freaking BEAR and not weaken massively and die. You still cant get rabies. So what would that big AI improvement add? Zip.
"Realism" doesnt need fancy AI. Realism is that the bear has a 99% chance of kiiling you and the server can pretty much just give you 100% dmg if the bear lands a head or torso shot. The OP complained about how silly it is for an armored man to die to a badger, but 90% of your life in an MMO (unless you play every MMO for 5 mins and then post for 500 hrs which I know is true of MANY here) is spent in situations that are INSANELY unrealistic the OTHER way. Once you're out of the hand held newbie stage, its ridiculous what you're doing/surviving. Thats what makes it FUN.
Another pointless post being thrown on the Vanguard forums, using your own words 'this isn't just about Vanguard' should've told you that this crap belong in the General MMOs section and not the VG one. Every other example is just an excuse to get a reaction, OMG the trees move in the wind but where are the squirrels that are mad because the trees are moving? Take this crap somewhere else, perhaps you can start in with the 'Build your own MMO' posts that are rampant in the 'General Population' area.
This crap actually belongs here, since he is addressing the VG advertising of being immersive and realistic. Its not. In response to the OP, it looks like Age of Conan should have the AI you are looking for. Apparently you have to dispatch of sentries silently otherwise they will rally the whole camp against you. Fun stuff like that.
It will become amuzing again to read after its release of AoC "Ohh noeeeeesss i can not run this game ouch ouch it's to system demanding, oh noeeesss i get killed every time because the AI is so "real" What a shitty game i really was hoping it would be the bomb.
Now seriously i really look forward to the slash and hack game but to already think that it will be the next big thing in MMORPG land we can only wait and see if it delivers. Yes when i first started beta Vanguard i was not impressed, the second time i went back in beta i was impressed and thought the game will blow away every other mmorpg at this moment, but in time i got to know some of it audience and seeing it is displeasing allot of players i do not think it the next big thing anymore, this i actualy already thought at release of Vanguard, but on the other side it is delivering a true MMORPG experiance unlike some MMO's that just are fun games.
I was in the last 3 stages of beta, I ran everything at max so I doubt I will be 'Oh noesing! My computorz are unpowered!'
And if I need to upgrade my computer to play a game I enjoy the gameplay of so be it, thing is Vanguard doesnt have the gameplay to upgrade for, and even if you do upgrade, the graphics and general art direction are pretty crap by todays standards. MMO's that are just fun games? What a horrible thought! Actually enjoying a game! Man I want to go grind something before I start enjoying myself.
Nice idea. I've been waiting for an mmorpg with more realism for years. The A.I. of mobs and NPCs must improve. With steadily increasing technology, hopefully it will be possible, but I still think developers are missing a big part of what some gamers want . . . realism and immersiveness. It's just not high on the priority list it seems, and that is unfortunate.
Comments
QFT! I think Cor4x got it spot on.
The technology is there to do the AI like Amathe has mentioned, but it just isn't possible to scale it up into MMO size numbers. Perhaps some kind of compromise might work without causing too much lag though.
This is what I'm thinking of:
Mobs level 1-5: Random reaction from 2 AI scripts
Mobs level 6-10: Random reaction from 3 AI scripts
Mobs level 11-20: Random reaction from 4 AI scripts
Mobs level 21+: Situational AI - the reaction would depend on party size, party classes, etc.
I was thinking that if the lower level mobs didn't have to check for anything other than a random # to determine the AI that would maybe allow for the higher level mobs to have a more dynamic AI, but with the increasing # of random scripts for the lower level mobs - it would create a bit more variety than what we see now.
So, in a typical low-level setting in attacking that wolf:
Player/Party A: attacks a level 12 wolf - one time it may attack them to the death like we mostly see now - another time it may run away as soon as it's attacked - another time it may attack at first and then try to flee - and yet another time it may run away as soon as the Player/Party is spotted, only to return a short time later with a whole pack of wolves.
All completely determined at random; yet adds a bit more variety to just the standard grinding level mob. At level 21+ then the mobs would start to use even more reactions more customized to the actual situation and not based on just a random # selection.
Would that work scaled up to MMO needs? Perhaps the exact level break-outs and the # of scripts could be adjusted to make it work. You'd think that at some level there would be enough CPU cycles available to get some more variety in the AI. Well, if we throw around enough ideas like this perhaps some industrious developer will run with it and let us see if they work or not.
Programming some kind of smart AI requires a really powerful CPU to actually execute that AI every split second. Thats why most games have rudimentary AI, the one that can react in the most basic terms, attack if attacked, assist their friends, perhaps pick the best attack target (kill healers/lowest HP first) but anything as complex as real life (assessing group strength, intelligent behavior) will be too hard to do atm IMO.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
The most immersive MMO I've ever played (and it can't really be called an MMO) was a player run NWN server. It was VERY immersive. Of course it was an RP server, which really is the only way to get a lot of immersion for very little code.
There were the obvious limitations of the engine, as in mobs spawning, etc, but a LOT of the rest of the game was so immersive and realistic. Here are a few examples:
- You had to have a reason to kill mobs.
This was pretty cool, but limiting at the same time. If you wanted to bash on goblins, you had to have some reason your character would be there killing. Maybe you made a pass by their settlement every once in awhile in the effort to 'keep their population down'. If you were killing them too often, your actions might be deemed sadistic and 'evil' since they are a sentient race (although not the brightest matches in the box).
For woodland creatures, it was generally acceptable to kill some here and there for supplies. Non-woodsy types typically didn't care much about protecting any animals they saw, but at the same time weren't ok with slaughtering sprees. The more woodsy types (e.g. elves etc) abhored killing woodland creatures except for self defence. Some went so far as to religiously kill on site any sentient being seen killing or generally damaging the forest in any way.
- Your every action resonated with the playerbase.
- If you were caught stealing from a player or NPC while in town, you were fined and given a punishment based on whatever record you had in that town - Some people were eventually banned from town or jailed, etc.
- If you attacked someone unprovoked and it was witnessed by another player, that affected your character's reputation to all who knew you - It could mean you might not get into the paladin's guild or something like that.
- If an unusually epic, one time event happened, of which you were the primary or part of the primary adventurers in this event, a statue might be raised in your name...likewise your opposition and allies of your opposition might consider you more of a threat, and offer bounties for your death.
- If you fell out of grace with a school of learning, say for magic, you could be cut off from learning new magic, save for your own reasearch - Something that obviously was very rough on mages
- If you did one large or several small attrocities in the eyes of your diety, your diety-granted powers (i.e. a cleric's 'spells') could be stripped, and you reduced to a shunned version of your former status.
- Your character built a reputation
At first, your character sought to become involved in the world, but if you played your cards right, eventually the world looked to get you involved - You really feel like a hero when someone comes to YOU with a quest instead of the other way around!
Anyway I could go on and on, but man that server was the most immersive OG I've ever been a part of. Of course this relies heavily on administrative powers of the GMs, but wow it really makes gameplay exciting.
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
I realize that with these kind of MMO's each "server" is actually a conglomeration of separate servers all working together as a single server. So, for this added AI CPU cycles needed they add X number of servers to the farm for the needed instruction cycles. Wouldn't that work?
I understand that it's obviously increasing the development dollars yet again. First, more programming time to make the additional scripts, then even more programming time to add in all the if..then..else good stuff to keep the whole thing from crashing horribly, and then the actual additional hardware for the AI servers. But...what if it worked?
I guess what I'm thinking is that it seems like the AI could be it's own server farm with database calls from the other servers indexed back to the level or type of the mob. So, the actual server farm isn't doing the calculations - it's just making a call to the AI "server" which is actually running the calculations. Yeah, yeah... I know, an additional call is still eating up more time which in turn leads to more lag.
But, it does seem that with the right topography setup of the server farm that this additional call time could be minimized. And, like I was saying in the earlier post. Start out small with the added AI scripts and see what the performance hit is like and then scale it up to what the hardware can handle. They have some pretty bright hardware engineers working at these MMO's I'm sure they could figure out a way to do it.
Well, it is feasible; or am I just talking crap? I'm not a programmer, so I'm not sure how all this actually works behind the scenes. Just trying to think it through somewhat logically, at least in my mind; scary as that may sound.
I feel so silly for replying to this but...
It's funny you should mention fighting badgers because I actually have fought badgers in real life. Now a badger wouldn't normally attack a person but growing up on the farm I walked around with the dogs a lot. There were several times when they got into fights with coyotes, coons, and yes...the dreaded badger.
Of course I rarely had a gun with me when this happened. So here are my farm-boy bragging rights:
I've killed a coyote with a rock. Not thrown, I held it and hit the mangy varmit in the head while my dogs had it distracted.
I've also killed coyotes with wooden clubs. Whatever was handy.
Coons, well the dogs never needed help with those but I've clubbed some anyway. And a few times I felt sorry for them and saved them from the dogs.
Ah, and the dreaded badger. Believe this if you dare but I once killed a badger with nothing more than my boots. There were no clubs or rocks handy (out in the middle of a milo field). But my dogs wouldn't leave it so I kicked it repeately untill it died.
On a few other occasions I clubbed badgers with whatever was handy.
Oh, and I don't remember my exact age during all of these incidents but these thing happened all through my childhood and teen years. Oh, and I never did have a suit of armor.
God, I feel so silly for mentioning this stuff...but it's true.
LOL awesome story man. If you didn't have the dogs there how do you think you would have fared against the badger? Seriously, thanks for sharing. All the arguing and posturing gets so tired..it's nice to hear something like this now and then.
LOL did you ever hear about the childrens crusades? Thousands of children and teenagers rose up in the year 1212 to take back Jerusalem. Very few ever returned.
Also, there really aren't any gophers in Vanguard. However, I do seem to remember some carnivorous chickens.
Except that because of body-dynamics and physics they couldn't exist.
An elephant is currently the biggest stompy-creature we have. They have pretty much maximal bone density at their size. (This is why an elephant won't walk down more than a very slight incline. Step in a hole and its leg goes snap.)
Insects work off of some weird flight physics. Make a giant wasp and... it couldn't fly.
No undead either as, as much as some might wish, don't exist. Neither do blasty-spells nor anything else.
So you'd have the middle ages. You're a newbie and WHACK! You're dead or maimed in 30 seconds. Sounds fun.
But seriously, I understand the want for a 'better game'. I'm with ya on that.
However, I'd like life to be like an MMORPG. That'd be great! I'll sign up for a lifetime subscription and my butt is playing a necro!
Observe the following:
"Step riiiiight up! Sell yer soul and get $1k real quick! No questions asked!" SKERACK! Essence emerald for meee!
Idiot in front of me at the ATM? Noooo problem.... *COR4X casts fear...* The old lady runs in fear!
Co-worker pisses me off? No problem!
COR4X's Bone Minion shuffles to attack Bothersome Co-Worker!
Bone Minion smashes Bothersome Co-Worker for 193 pts!
Bone Minion smashes Bothersome Co-Worker but misses!
Bone Minion kicks Bothersome Co-Worker for 93 pts!
Bothersome Co-Worker begins casting Idiot Drivel...
Bothersome Co-Workers Idiot Drivel drools on Bone Minion for 38 pts!
Bone Minion smashes Bothersome Co-Worker for 187 pts!
Bone Minion kicks Bothersome Co-Worker for 93 pts!
Bothersome Co-Worker whimpers and dies!
COR4X gains adventuring experience!
COR4X loots 1 Hot Girlfriend's Number from corpse of Bothersome Co-Worker.
COR4X tries to loot 1 Blackberry Handheld, but it is LORE and he already has one!
COR4X loots 1 ATM Card from corpse of Bothersome Co-Worker.
COR4X loots 1 Key to a Porsche from corpse of Bothersome Co-Worker.
<<WARNING! The Cops have been called and are on their way! You have been flagged as a PLAYER KILLER!>>
COR4X begins casting Feign Death...
COR4X appears dead...
Cop 1 says: "Musta been a murder-suicide. Our work is done."
Cop 2 says: "Lets get a bear claw and some coffee."
COR4X says: "Woot fer me!"
Ah. Daydreaming.
LOL did you ever hear about the childrens crusades? Thousands of children and teenagers rose up in the year 1212 to take back Jerusalem. Very few ever returned.
Also, there really aren't any gophers in Vanguard. However, I do seem to remember some carnivorous chickens.
There are badgers and I think wolverines (which also use the same model...).
However, these self-same badgers can run down and kill several armed heavy cavalry in a full charge so... those are not your average badgers.
However, neither the badger-of-doom or the heavy cav can do a single thing to the magic-invulnerable chickens-of-infinite-health. Try as you might. Drive a battle-tank right over them and they don't dent or wrinkle or even cluck. That is why they are so zen-like pecking as they do.
That's probably the best post this forum has seen in a very long time, if not ever.
If only life were that easy. Though, I'd have gone with a Shaman from WoW, personally. Self-rez? Instawin.
If the dogs hadn't been there I doubt if I would have even known the badger was around. And I wouldn't have bothered it if I had known.
But really, badgers are no serious threat to a human being. They can't outrun you and one wouldn't want to fight with you unless maybe it had rabies. They are tough little bastards though, I'll admit that. They have very thick hides. But one could never do much to a human being unless he deliberately let it bite him.
"Ahh... you spammed your drop-kick special and had your critical hits skill maxed as well. Didn't you know that's considered an exploit against the badger mob? Boy, are you in trouble now!"
Crap, I hope I don't get banned.
I think the real question is did you level?
That's probably the best post this forum has seen in a very long time, if not ever.
If only life were that easy. Though, I'd have gone with a Shaman from WoW, personally. Self-rez? Instawin.
TYVM!It'd be a real hard choice, though. How about an enchanter? Gotta love charm. So much fun with that especially after dire charm.
And mez. And memory blur.
Or a dominator from CoV (they get insta-self rez too and you get to be drunk for free!)? How about Mass Confusion at a high-school reunion?!
To the OP:
Great post and points that I agree with. But you should post it in the general MMO forum instead since this concerns all games not only VG.
Bet you'd sing a dif. tune if you were put in a small confined space with an incredibly pissed off badger.
Ever seen a pissed off posum. No joke, do not F with a pissed off posum.
Small, wild animals are a lot more vicious then people give them credit for; especially when that cute little guy feels like it's been cornered. Even a squirrel could kick your ass if it felt it needed to.
I used to have ferrets. One in particullar was an incredibly nasty thing. Tiny, smallest one I'd ever had, and the meanest. Thing pissed fire water, and if you went near her she wouldn't hesitate to go a round or two. I wouldn't go near that one. Threw the food in her cage and ran, no joke. She died of cancer. Felt really sad until I remembered the way she sunk her fangs into my arm. Never been bit like that by an animal before, and getting her to let go required ripping her from me along with a bit of my arm. Nasty little thing. Cute as a button to. I wouldn't tell people she was mean, let them figure it out on thier own.
yea, I cornered a possum once. Little bugger decided to come into my garage and stay abit without paying rent. Cornered it, it tried going up the wall, smacked it on the nose with a hockey stick, scooped it outta the corner, and tapped it's little ass all the way along the garage wall until it ran out the open door. Gave it one good slapshot so it wouldn't come back. Cornered possum might be pretty fearsome, but they don't like to play hockey. Always use Canadian solutions to life's little problems. Nothing that can't be settled with a hockey stick.
That's the problem in Vanguard, you get all kinds of fancy pantsy weapons, but no hockey stick.....and no roller blades.
The poster above with the green text really nailed it. People claim they want all of this "innovation" and "realism" on msg boards, but the fact is, every person claiming to want those things would bitch about them if they got them and then say "well it wasnt implemented right"
"Realistic" combat between two people with swords or one person with a sword and one who can hurl fire from his hands is that one person is dead VERY fast. Not sure where people get their personal view of "realism" but humans die pretty easily. How do you think a "realistic" group would fare against a dragon? Or even a giant? Why would being "level 50" make you any less fragile than being "level 1"? It wouldnt. Thats idiotic. A super trained human heavily armored and armed and worked out to the pinnacle of human achievement would be annihilated by a 16000lb, 20 foot tall man with a 500 pound club. Its that simple. And as for PVP balance, explain to me how a high level mage wouldnt destroy EVERYTHING. In a "realistic" game, magic would be a 1000 times more effective than melee could EVER hope to be. Give me a diamond skin type spell and a fire AE that casts either insta or in a few seconds and I could take out 5 delta force units before they could bring me down.
"Realism" isnt fun. I mean lets put perma death in there too. Some people even argue for THAT. I guess for them a "fun" game is just creating characters ad nauseum. It would be like this:
Create character
Venture into world
Stumble into random encounter with something that wants to kill you (realism means theres NO reason why a deadly creature couldnt be RIGHT near your "newbie" area) - lets say a rattlesnake
Attempt to defend yourself - swing sword
Get bitten on hand while swinging and die from poisoning since you're a 40 minute walk from "town" and have no ability to "heal" from a venomous bite anyway
Roll new char since that one is dead
That sounds AWESOME! Add in some disease and famine and you'd have a game! Why not add the risk of tuberculosis or the plague since you're living in a city with medieval level hygiene and rat infestations? I mean that would be realistic too.
Im sure people will say "well THATS not what I meant!" But then what do you mean really? Whats the middle ground between the above and what we have now? And why is that middle ground so necessary? What would it deliver for the effort? Complex run/fight/gang AI in a situation that is going to be hugely simplistic anyway seems pointless to me. OK, so the bear sometimes runs, sometimes fights and sometimes packs up... Big deal. You still cant bleed to death really right? You're still going to somehow get bitten and mauled over and over by a freaking BEAR and not weaken massively and die. You still cant get rabies. So what would that big AI improvement add? Zip.
"Realism" doesnt need fancy AI. Realism is that the bear has a 99% chance of kiiling you and the server can pretty much just give you 100% dmg if the bear lands a head or torso shot. The OP complained about how silly it is for an armored man to die to a badger, but 90% of your life in an MMO (unless you play every MMO for 5 mins and then post for 500 hrs which I know is true of MANY here) is spent in situations that are INSANELY unrealistic the OTHER way. Once you're out of the hand held newbie stage, its ridiculous what you're doing/surviving. Thats what makes it FUN.
It will become amuzing again to read after its release of AoC "Ohh noeeeeesss i can not run this game ouch ouch it's to system demanding, oh noeeesss i get killed every time because the AI is so "real" What a shitty game i really was hoping it would be the bomb.
Now seriously i really look forward to the slash and hack game but to already think that it will be the next big thing in MMORPG land we can only wait and see if it delivers. Yes when i first started beta Vanguard i was not impressed, the second time i went back in beta i was impressed and thought the game will blow away every other mmorpg at this moment, but in time i got to know some of it audience and seeing it is displeasing allot of players i do not think it the next big thing anymore, this i actualy already thought at release of Vanguard, but on the other side it is delivering a true MMORPG experiance unlike some MMO's that just are fun games.
I was in the last 3 stages of beta, I ran everything at max so I doubt I will be 'Oh noesing! My computorz are unpowered!'
And if I need to upgrade my computer to play a game I enjoy the gameplay of so be it, thing is Vanguard doesnt have the gameplay to upgrade for, and even if you do upgrade, the graphics and general art direction are pretty crap by todays standards. MMO's that are just fun games? What a horrible thought! Actually enjoying a game! Man I want to go grind something before I start enjoying myself.