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Tired of the required, group make up.
iceboxqs
Member Posts: 8
I have bounced around quite a few mmorpg's starting with EQ1.
I recently canceled my WoW subscription because I am of the required classes you need to have a successful group.
It has been so many years and still all the games developed don't allow 5 crazed axe men to successfully do "end game content." ( however that is defined, raids are a cop out on the devs part )
Allow a group of "healing" classes to run instances. Let a "support class" party take down a boss.
The main beef I have with this is all my friends like to play the crazed axe men. We like to play together yet we are penalized and forced to group apart or forced to play a class we really don't like.
Requiring a class x, y and z in a group also tends to create time where you sit around waiting for John Smith to login the magic class so you can start. ( insert healer here
)
Whatever happened to the great times when you could hop on a lan with your friends ( no matter what class they play ) and start having fun in like 30 seconds?
You can still have interesting and technical boss fights, the devs would just have to work out a new system.
They have been using the same dang system for years. Sure it may work, or rather be easy for them, but it is old, tired and needs a good kick in the nuts.
Give the players some freedom with what "works" as a group.
Personally I still think it will be a few years before developers get out of the current game mechanics rut they have been in for so many years.
I'm not saying get rid of groups. I'm saying get rid of interesting boss fights. Just change the age old grouping system so it doesn't matter what your friends play as, so you can all have fun together doing any part of the game.
Anyone else looking for something new?
I recently canceled my WoW subscription because I am of the required classes you need to have a successful group.
It has been so many years and still all the games developed don't allow 5 crazed axe men to successfully do "end game content." ( however that is defined, raids are a cop out on the devs part )
Allow a group of "healing" classes to run instances. Let a "support class" party take down a boss.
The main beef I have with this is all my friends like to play the crazed axe men. We like to play together yet we are penalized and forced to group apart or forced to play a class we really don't like.
Requiring a class x, y and z in a group also tends to create time where you sit around waiting for John Smith to login the magic class so you can start. ( insert healer here
)Whatever happened to the great times when you could hop on a lan with your friends ( no matter what class they play ) and start having fun in like 30 seconds?
You can still have interesting and technical boss fights, the devs would just have to work out a new system.
They have been using the same dang system for years. Sure it may work, or rather be easy for them, but it is old, tired and needs a good kick in the nuts.
Give the players some freedom with what "works" as a group.
Personally I still think it will be a few years before developers get out of the current game mechanics rut they have been in for so many years.
I'm not saying get rid of groups. I'm saying get rid of interesting boss fights. Just change the age old grouping system so it doesn't matter what your friends play as, so you can all have fun together doing any part of the game.
Anyone else looking for something new?
Comments
Play CoV. Every Archetype can effectively solo which means in groups they all pretty much do their own thing and things die, also no interesting boss fights for regular groups. Your less than optimal group would run into trouble with Recluses Strike Force though.
If you don't like CoV then you're screwed because your idea is stupid. In normal MMOs in groups you need someone to take the hits(the tank), you need someone to heal those hits taken(the healer) and you need a couple to actually kill the thing(the DPS). There is no getting around that.
If you don't do it the EQ/WoW way then you run into problems. Such as:
If everyone can solo then why group? Effective soloing would mean all classes would have a way to mitigate damage taken and regain health when lost. This would mean no class would be purely a tank or healer. Which leads to -
If there are no designated tanks or healers then there can be nothing that would require a tank or healer. Which leads to -
If nothing requires a tank or healer then how would it be difficult? Which leads to -
If nothing is difficult then the game is easy. Which means why even play?
See, your idea is stupid.
But maybe besides the fantasy genera you may just be tired of same ole same ole in the current make up of the mmorgs currently out there? Maybe try something different to see if that would fill a void for the time being untill some other thigns come out .
As you and your pals play together unless you level at same time you out grow your group that also gets old, so i do understand where you are coming from
First thing first i need to mention that i dont play WoW anymore
But IMO WoW is the only game that i have tried where you can actually get a lot of things done without the usual effective group setup. It just takes patience and a revision of strategies. Now im not talking about raid-content here, and i'm not talking about the new instances, asi i havent tried them.
I was in a small guild and i remember doing loads of the lvl 60 instances with VERY odd groups and it was real fun. Taking down the Baron with a hunter-pet tanking and a single paladin as the healer was pretty fun, because you had to plan a different approach, and people had to be disciplined for it to work.
What i really want to say is: Try stuff out with this group of "crazed axemen". If you take it one step at a time, u'd be amazed at what is actually doable in WoW...people simply need to throw away their views on HOW things should be done and more importantly: HOW fast it should be done.
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TCOS http://tcos.com/
Every class has some sort of a heal eventually, there is no holding aggro. A good tank would be someone that could dodge attacks, infact the main tanking class sets up links between himself his allies and his enemies in which when they take damage it reverts to him. Its all very complicated and interesting. Its worth a look.
I see what the OP is saying, and I have to say, I approve. The current standard MMORPG requires a fairly standard group set-up, including a Tank, a Healer, then a mix of other casters or whatnot to handle DPS, CC and the like. There is little left to imagination or variation, and if you try to do a group that is "outside the box" (so to speak), you'll get crushed.
Therefore, I'd like to see a game that rewards unique group builds. For example:
The point is, by using a system that causes classes with similar or complimentary abilities to have scaling buffs while grouped, the standard group dynamic would be essentially tossed out the window. Sure, running a group with the "classic" roles would be just fine, you wouldn't be penalized for doing something a little different.
Currently playing:
LOTRO, Rift (beta) and WoW (on occasion)
Firstly, I'd second the call for City of Heroes / Villains. They're not devoid of the roles, in fact the tanker roles are bluntly called "tanks". But while certain traditional strategies are possible, they're definitely not required. For example the game has characters that would accurately be described as "healers" (Empathy defenders), but anyone who thinks their team needs a healer like that is generally regarded a newbie.
That aside, make a list of the jobs that exist for a combat situation. Here's some I get off the top of my head:
Damage dealing
Damage Mitigation
Status effect / mob debuff mitigation
Mob positioning
I'm sure you can come up with more, but that's probably an 80% list at least. Now what you can do, what CoH does pretty well, and what generally isn't done enough, is allow for substitutions by having different methods for similar roles.
Damage dealing at range
Damage dealing in melee
Damage boost through buff
Damage boost through debuff
Mob positioning
Damage mitigation though absorption
Damage mitigation through buff / healing
Damage mitigation through debuff
Damage mitigation through control
Status effect mitigation through buff
Status effect mitigation through control
Status effect mitigation through redirect
For example, you don't need someone to absorb the damage (tanker) or someone to heal if you have sufficient debuffs and controls to keep the enemy from really hurting anyone in the first place. Or if you can have 1 damage dealer and one damage buffer instead of 2 dealers. And of course I can further specify by having different damage types, or using resistance (reduce all incoming damage) vs defense (% chance for complete miss), etc.
However, take whatever list you come up with, and start assigning differnt job capabilities to different classes. How are you going to do this? If someone is better at damage absorption, you've just made a tank. Does someone heal better than others? That's your healer. To paraphrase Maslow, if players are used to using hammers, they're going to see each game as full of nails.
Now trying to avoid that seems at least as problematic. If you spread the abilities too equally, you get a bunch of "TankMages" who don't need each other. Or worse, the game looks limited as everyone else is the same as you.
What I think you're saying iceboxqs, is allow the roles to exist but don't require them. That to me sounds like a game that's way too easy and therefore boring. If a bunch of healers can get through an instance, that means they had enough damage w/o damage dealers. They also didn't need someone who's good at being the tank, or laying out the crowd control, or what have you. And presuming a team of all damagers w/o healing can also get through, that's a role you don't need either.
So this instance, this boss - it doesn't require a particular amount of tanking, healing, damaging, controlling, positioning, buffing, debuffing, or anything? Where's the challenge? Especially when you consider that most groups will have most of these roles covered.
The best solution I can find, besides finding different ways to accomplish the roles as I said, is something like the Guild Wars approach. You recognize that your team needs a healer role, but you don't have one handy, so your group gets an NPC to heal you. They're not as good as a real person, but good enough to fill the role if the rest of you play a little better to compensate. That still requires a bit of a toned-down challenge, but not nearly as much as being able to run w/o a role at all.
Currently playing:
DC Universe
Planetside 2
Magic Online
Simunomics, the Massive Multiplayer Economic Simulation Game. Play for free.
This is not about soloing. This about taking a group of players reguardless of "class" and creating a successful group.
You are looking at grouping from the age old view point. Take a moment to think. There are other ways of doing things. This is exactly the mindset I was talking about.
Companies that put out the games aren't willing to take the risk or put in the R&D.
I have played CoH and CoV. Just didn't stick. *shrug* Might have to give it another go.
I thought guild wars would be the game back when it was up and coming, for some reason the combat doesn't feel very tactile. Lotro combat seems to have the same problem.
I'll take another peak at Chronicles of Spellborn, I haven't looked at it for a while.
Didn't know about Granado Espada. I'll give it a look.
Yeah, we did a lot of the lower level instances in WoW without a healer. It was amazing what you could pull off. But as you get higher and move toward mid level and high end content it just doesn't work any more.
I do have my eye on Age of Conan, Exteel and Hellgate: London.
I don't think Age of Conan will toss out the old system as much as they are going to shuffle it around a bit. That might be enough though.
Just have to wait and see.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
1. Easy to use and understand. Everyone knows their role. This is mmorpgs 'dumbed' down for the masses.
2. Devs can use very strong NPCs which can deal damage appropriate to a dedicated tanks hp and resists and have enough hitpoints to hold out against dedicated nukers. Dont forget: other chars than the tank will die from one of the mobs hits.
I hate the archetyps as well but I simply cannot come up with another working idea. A skill based system will show this effectively. Either the quests/npcs are weak so the chars do not matter or group leaders will be looking for chars with specific skill sets to mimic the archetyps. Simply having classes (or skill sets which are tied to roles) disappear will not work out.
It is different for PvP though. Here a skill based system is a great idea and would work well. It would add a lot of variables to fights. Right now it is just: I am of class x and enemy is of class y, x is stronger than y so x wins.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
No, it was acutally a rogue. Then for BC I leveled up a tank paladin. AoE tank paladin with warlocks seeding = fun.
My main hope currently is in Hellgate: London.
I wouldn't expect anyone to come up with a solution within a few days, let alone a few minutes. Hell, I wouldn't expect anyone to come up with a solution without getting paid. I don't expect to get any solutions from these forums
Just wondering if there are others looking for more and something different.
I'm sure there is a thread somewhere buried on here with indepth game combat/group system chatter and alternative methods.
My theory is that dps classes need to be done away with and 3 man groups featured as the main source of gameplay.
itll still use a class system, except there will be 3 main roles.
tank types.
healer types.
crowd controllers.
everyone would take roughly equal part in the dps, which is what all players really want.
class would be designed to augment eachother.
For instance the standard heavy armor knight (Tank) would benifit from having the magically sheilded battle mage (Tank) because the battlemage could extend their sheilds to augment the knights defences.
in this day and age of mmos, you have to accept the fact that players dont really want to group much, so making groups as small as possible will be the best bang for the buck, since theoretically you could solo much of the content a 3 man group might do, albiet it would be alot more challenging.
As for CoH, you never really need healing. In almost any case, healing can be substituted with damage mitigation. I say that having played CoH a ton, going through pretty much all the content with a blaster and defender. Honestly, in almost any case where I played defender, I rarely had to use my own heal, and the empaths were pretty much left with just tossing CM, AB, and auras.
healer-tank-damage dealer model is so boring now. Though, necessary? I'm not sure. Healing is always required.
I'm thinking something that borrows from games like Battlefield 2 would be a good approach, a Medic isn't needed, but it makes a difference when you do have one.
A medic is good, or in another game I played you could play like a mechanical tank which could repair itself. That has to be a lot more interesting than the current continual reiterations.
I played Asheron's Call (skill based) for 4 years. My main was basically a warrior with one magic school, Item Magic (weapon & armor buffs). So I had no magic abilities in fights but I leveled up my healing skill to max. Fun to solo and I could group with anybody. A group of friends and myself, no matter what build we had could do just about anything in that game. Get a group together and go. Those were the good old days.
Only game I can ever remember where we were able to get anywhere without the Holy Trinity besides CoX is WoW. It was possible for you to have a strange group and still get through content as long as you knew what you were doing, but it was very hard and you could only do that at certain levels with certain people in certain places.
Thing with defined class/role based games is that they will almost always have the Holy Trinity in it for many reasons. Main one, that I believe at least, is because it is the easist way to make/provide balanced content for all the classes. If nobody had to play a Priest to keep the party alive, there would be a lot less Priests running around because it is just plain boring to most. Yes, there are some that like that role, but not many, so what the developers do is make the group dependant on Priests and let them get some perks (this can be debated, but I won't if anyone brings it up) like finding groups easier and getting items for themselves easier in most, but not all, situations. The same could be said about other roles, but more people play those then anything else.
CoX had it right when it came to grouping. They did the right model and I think that more games should follow it's model because it makes many, if not all, players happy when it comes to grouping. You don't need X class or Y class to do anything, though it did make some places a bit easier, for most if not all the game.
However, some people also like the traditional model of grouping, which is why people play WoW. I myself like to have defined roles sometimes (for Roleplay purposes and yes I often RP, shut up), but for the most part it just gets annoying waiting four hours to find a healer only to have it leave 20 seconds after we start because it didn't get the 'leet axe' it wanted.
Tell me what Server name in WoW you play on. I will make a new Warrior character, get it to whatever level you and your friends are, and train you and your friends how to do it! Or whatever other class you and your friends are.
One of the sorriest, saddest, sights I have EVER seen in WoW -> I'm battling giant raptors and 6 legged giant allegators in the land far, far, south of Duskwood. I'm holding my own, doing OK. Suddently a Mage a few levels higher than me runs by and stops. "Help me! Save me!" he yells. He was near dead, with almost no mana. He had frozen whatever MOB he was battling, and ran away. It would soon come after him after it unfroze. If he ran any further, he risked running into more new MOBs, then pulling a train on himself. I stood there in disbelief as he did not do a single FIRST AID on himself! Soon the MOB he had frozen came running up, he ran in circles for a while, but it finally nibbled on him enough to kill him. I could not help because I was still eating my food, re-healing from my battling.
IF he were a true gamer, he would have maxed out his first aid skill as soon as possible. Then during any battle, if he finds himself near death, he casts his freezing spell, then first aid himself. Viola, he's set. He can even cast the spell that restores his mana, or use mana potion, or move a way some feet and try sitting and drinking juice to restore mana, while the enemy is still frozen. True gamers don't just play games. They THINK while they play whatever game. They continously LEARN and experiment with the game they are playing.
The current fad is to have partys of WAR WAR WAR WAR RDM(or BRD) WHM
It's already doable. I have even gone step by step to SHOW how it can be done! It is only a question of .... which game is it easier to do it in? Which game is it harder to do it in? In WoW, it ranges from extreemly easy (5 mages, 5 rogues, 5 Hunters) to being hard only for everyone's patience. (5 Holy Priests).
Wait, in WoW the easiest would be.... 5 Warlocks with 5... D-O-O-M-B-R-I-N-G-E-R-S HEHEH lololol.
(For anyone who has not played WoW, or never seen a Doombringer. Just 1 can slay roughly 10 to 20 level 60 players in a few hits. I don't know why more Warlocks don't have them! All it takes is one player/guild member, to sacrifice theirselves.
That IS what guild members are for anyway? 
More proof that most gamers are not REAL gamers! They do not learn how to play the game, and experiment while they play the game.)