I'd like to see those tactics work first..........
For example doesn't Rogue's Sap only work on humanoids?
edit: In addition, doesn't shield leave you with a 'weakened soul' or something which means you can't have it recast on you for a certain amount of time?
Have you even ever played WOW before? That was the most ridiculous and incorrect write-up ever. You're not wrong about 5 warriors being able to do some of the easier 5-mans, just wrong about every other things. And don't get me started on the Doombringer BS.
I have bounced around quite a few mmorpg's starting with EQ1.
I recently canceled my WoW subscription because I am of the required classes you need to have a successful group. Only the avarage gamer sticks to this formula when forming a group in WoW.
It has been so many years and still all the games developed don't allow 5 crazed axe men to successfully do "end game content." ( however that is defined, raids are a cop out on the devs part ) Incorrect. CSWG was the best ever mmorpg that made it easiest to not use this mold. The revolutionary Anarchy Online is another mmorpg that makes it easy to not use this mold.
Allow a group of "healing" classes to run instances. Let a "support class" party take down a boss. In WoW, I have been in groups of all Hunters, all Warriors, all Paladins (strongest group of all), all casters, and every time we succeeded. Too many gamers are not REAL gamers aka have the mindset of original gamers from the 1970's - early 1990's that is always saying "I wonder what happens if I do this?"., "Let me try this and see if it can work!". Many modern "gamers" are too spoiled, consulting cheat books, cheat internet sites, walkthrough books, WALKTHROUGH internet sites, scared to experiment, scared to play a single game without using a walkthrough book/website. Scared to .... xplooooooor!
The main beef I have with this is all my friends like to play the crazed axe men. We like to play together yet we are penalized and forced to group apart or forced to play a class we really don't like. *Ahem* in WoW, 5 crazed "axemen" aka Warriors can indeed group together AND take out bosses (bosses made for a 5 group party.) Either you, or your 4 other friends do not know how to play the warrior class in WoW. It is actually insanely easier for a group of warriors to take out an enemy than a group made up of all of the same other classes. (Still doable though.) WoW is roughly 85% level based/15% skill based. You and all your warrior friends NEED to pump up your first aid skill to the maximum. Then load up on the best possible heal potions. Right there you get to recover 100% health TWICE during a fight without any healers. First Aid and health potions can be used during a fight. 1. Warrior #1 goes in, using charge stun on MOB #1, then area aggro shout on group of 5 MOBs. He charge stuns first MOB. Other moves that Warrior MUST use when fighting group of enemies: Thunder stomp move (makes enemy swings less), Demoralizing shout (makes enemy hit for less damage), Rend (good DoT blow, enemy bleeds to death. More leathal version is Impale which is a Proc that happens often). A very experienced Warrior will use Rend on every enemy in a group then go back to first target. 2. Rest of 4 Warriors one at a time enter fight vs MOB #1 using charge stun. This means the first enemy virtually gets NO hits in! First enemy dies in seconds. 3. Warrior #5 back pedels, uses charge stun on MOB #2, then area aggro shout. 4. Warrior #1 moves 10 feet away, uses first aid on himself to heal to full health. Rest of Warriors repeat step 2 on MOB 2. Warrior #1 is last one to enter fray. MOB 2 dies. Warrior #4 does step 3 on MOB #3. Warrior #5 moves 10 feet away, uses first aid on himself. Rest of warriors repeat step 2 on MOB #3. And on it goes. The KEY with a group of all warriors is the charge stun move, and the area aggro shout move (FORCES all enemies to attack whoever uses this shout.) This allows the first tank to move away and use first aid. Heal potions are used as a back up if fight starts to go bad for some reason (MOB uses unusual move like stun, or changes party into frogs, etc...). If a fight starts going badly, first use heal potion, getting full health back. Next backup is another Warrior shout - or the Hamstring blow - that slows enemy speed 40%-50% or more. The Warrior can then kite the enemy while waiting for heal potion cooldown and first aid cooldown. It is a good idea to first practice on group of easy MOBs. Or every one get level 1 weapons, and practice on group of easy MOBs.
Requiring a class x, y and z in a group also tends to create time where you sit around waiting for John Smith to login the magic class so you can start. ( insert healer here )
Whatever happened to the great times when you could hop on a lan with your friends ( no matter what class they play ) and start having fun in like 30 seconds?
You can still have interesting and technical boss fights, the devs would just have to work out a new system.
They have been using the same dang system for years. Sure it may work, or rather be easy for them, but it is old, tired and needs a good kick in the nuts.
Give the players some freedom with what "works" as a group. The players DO have the freedom. They don't have the guts to DO it, the MINDSET to DO it, to use it! Come on! Make a group of all [insert class here] in WoW, and first practice with level 1 weapons on easy group of MOBs. Until everyone has the group strategy down. Then use normal level weapons and battle!
Personally I still think it will be a few years before developers get out of the current game mechanics rut they have been in for so many years. No, it's here, and has been here. It simply is EASIER for players in some games, and HARDER for players to do in other games. But it is doable, it HAS BEEN DONE. Do you want me to login to WoW with you and SHOW you, and TRAIN you?
I'm not saying get rid of groups. I'm saying get rid of interesting boss fights. Just change the age old grouping system so it doesn't matter what your friends play as, so you can all have fun together doing any part of the game.
Anyone else looking for something new?
Tell me what Server name in WoW you play on. I will make a new Warrior character, get it to whatever level you and your friends are, and train you and your friends how to do it! Or whatever other class you and your friends are.
One of the sorriest, saddest, sights I have EVER seen in WoW -> I'm battling giant raptors and 6 legged giant allegators in the land far, far, south of Duskwood. I'm holding my own, doing OK. Suddently a Mage a few levels higher than me runs by and stops. "Help me! Save me!" he yells. He was near dead, with almost no mana. He had frozen whatever MOB he was battling, and ran away. It would soon come after him after it unfroze. If he ran any further, he risked running into more new MOBs, then pulling a train on himself. I stood there in disbelief as he did not do a single FIRST AID on himself! Soon the MOB he had frozen came running up, he ran in circles for a while, but it finally nibbled on him enough to kill him. I could not help because I was still eating my food, re-healing from my battling.
IF he were a true gamer, he would have maxed out his first aid skill as soon as possible. Then during any battle, if he finds himself near death, he casts his freezing spell, then first aid himself. Viola, he's set. He can even cast the spell that restores his mana, or use mana potion, or move a way some feet and try sitting and drinking juice to restore mana, while the enemy is still frozen. True gamers don't just play games. They THINK while they play whatever game. They continously LEARN and experiment with the game they are playing.
The time it takes for most a ccs to wearoff you've done atleast half your bandaging at low levels and all of your bandanging at high levels. While he is right to say that unusual groups can work I'm leery of his advice when he can say a Doomguard can kill atleast 10 level 60s. THe Doomguard is no where close to being that good.
I see what the OP is saying, and I have to say, I approve. The current standard MMORPG requires a fairly standard group set-up, including a Tank, a Healer, then a mix of other casters or whatnot to handle DPS, CC and the like. There is little left to imagination or variation, and if you try to do a group that is "outside the box" (so to speak), you'll get crushed. Therefore, I'd like to see a game that rewards unique group builds. For example:
No healers, all DPS? Fine, the group gets a damage-bonus for the massive, constant pummeling they are inflicting. All casters or ranged, no Tank? The targets either receive additional magic damage (magical overload), or the target(s) are slowed by the barrage of ranged strikes, keeping them at bay somewhat. Heavy on healers? Their defense or healing spells/powers get increased by their combined "holiness" (so to speak), to make up for their lackluster DPS.
The point is, by using a system that causes classes with similar or complimentary abilities to have scaling buffs while grouped, the standard group dynamic would be essentially tossed out the window. Sure, running a group with the "classic" roles would be just fine, you wouldn't be penalized for doing something a little different.
Good examples. I would add that it would be a lot of fun if there was more than one strategy, depending on the group makeup. Everyone is familiar with the tank, nuke, heal, crowd control dynamic and how it works.
It would be fun if other strategies opened up depending on how the group was made up. Rather than just give bonuses, which might not make the game challenging enough, require the players to adopt different tactics.
For example, a group of crazed axe men (I'm assuming they are tanks) might get the ability to manage aggro by trading off which of them is being hit so they can spread their massive hit points around, even without a healer. So instead of just attacking, and letting the mob get aggro on one tank, they have to constantly switch off being Main Tank, but it works just as good as the Tank, Nuke, Healer, combo.
For a group of mages, allow them to set up such that they can kite Mobs if they get in the right position. One casts a spell, as then runs away, then another casts a spell, and the Mobs turns on that one, who runs a way, then the third casts a spell and runs away, rinse repeat until Mob is dead, but If they try to just all cast at once, the creature will run up and kill one of them.
The idea is you still need TEAMWORK, not just a zerg like described in City of Villians (everyone just does their own thing), but different tactics work for different groups, besides just the tank, nuke, heal group.
The kiting is done to death in MMOs such as WoW and Vanguard. I play an offensive caster in MMOs and I am asked to blast something twice, hit it with a snare and run around while my party members beat on it.
I think SWG had the idea right when it came to group setups, you could use any melee class as a tank for high end mobs, you could also use ranged players to tank certain other mobs.
Everyone could have a degree of healing but it was possible to push your mitigation so high through skills and armor that you didn’t really need healing if you were completely buffed along with had the right armor.
So you could have a group of pure dps players and it would still work if you used the buffs etc.
You could also use a standard group but it wasn’t more or less effective than an off group.
I think the only way to get rid of the cookie cutter groups is to introduce specializations and certain ways to utilize buffs and gear.
For instance if you have 5 classes in “wartimes (a quick made up game) and the max group is 5.
The classes are:
- Warrior – tank
- Cleric – healer
- Wizard – ranged magic dps.
- Necromancer – Debuffer
- Bard – buffer.
Your cookie cutter group would be one of each priest for healing, warrior for tank etc.
But if say you did a party with
Bard – Cleric – wizard – necromancer – bard that group has no tank but what if the different buffs they can give and the debuffs on the mob they are fighting means they can use a bard as a tank for instance?
You can increase the number of classes and the number of people who can be in a group what needs to be done though is to balance the buffs and debuffs to limit their stacking, and power.
If you look at world of warcraft there are a ton of different buffs and debuffs but none that are really powerful in that they are fight changing.
The most powerful buff in WoW is the paladins blessing of kings which increases stats by 10% for 15 minutes.
If you made it so that buffs have “set bonuses” and increase the number of members in a group in “wartimes” to 10 so say if you set up a group
Say the Bard has 3 different buffs “battle song of valor”, “battle song of deterrence” and “battle hymn of grace”
BoV – Increases the stamina of all party members within 50 yards by 30%
BoD – Increases the armor mitigation and avoidance values by 30%
BoG – Increases the damage dealt by all party members within 50 yards by 30%
If a target has all 3 buffs the player gains:
Harmonious battle – Increases the effect of all bard buffs on you by 20%.
If you implement similar buffs for all “support classes” it would make it possible to make different groups due to the buffs.
Take a look at what’s needed for each role.
Tank – Damage mitigation, health, avoidance, threat.
Healer – Healing spells.
Dps – Damage dealing spells.
Crowd control – Crowd control spells.
So in order to do a party without a tank you need something to fill that role as damage soak or you need something that can mitigate the loss of a soak.
This can be CC, healing spells, or damage dealing spells, this is quite complex though because:
If you make a boss that can be mezzed to not attack, you under power it if the group has both a mezzer and a tank.
Or if you make a boss that you can dps down so fast because you want it to be possible to kill without a healer, its way to easy to kill if you bring 1 tank, 1 healer and 8 dps classes.
The reason why I liked the SWG setup was that:
- You didn’t have any pure classes pr say, you could build your character exactly the way you want, and regardless of how you built your character you could do 2 roles.
- You didn’t have to have a certain build in order to tank or dps, or heal for that matter.
There was no “sorry we have to wait until Jim gets online with his healer” it was “well let’s just get some more dps then or one more guy to split the tanking”.
Almost everyone had a little bit of healing so it was possible to heal regardless of spec since healing wasn’t done with spells but with crafted healing packs, with a set minimum power.
But this makes it almost impossible to balance as SWG showed.
In World of Warcraft.
Every encounter is balanced around a certain group setup with certain skills in mind.
Every boss for instance is balanced around having a warrior tank with shield block and a certain set of gear and certain buffs.
It makes wow a very easy game to balance.
Ok I make boss A the end boss in the new “zomgepixx” dungeon.
This is a 10 man dungeon.
Ok so I want boss A to have a hard hitting strike.
I want him to hit every 3 seconds.
And I want him to buff himself to deal 300% more damage if he isn’t dead within 3 minutes of the encounter.
So let’s start with the tank, the boss does not drop agro and go for other players so it’s a tank and spank fight.
It’s a level 70 boss so the players fighting him will be level 70.
A level 70 warrior in tanking gear set for this encounter will have 490 defenses (the cap that pretty much removes the chance of getting hit by a critical strike).
He will have at least 13000 HP with regular raid buffs.
He has shield block so he will block 2 attacks every 5 seconds (the CD on shield block is 5 seconds) meaning that he will never be hit by a crushing blow by this boss.
The boss hits for say 2000 with his auto attack every 3 seconds, plus 1 strike of doom for 3000 damage. This means 7000 damage every 3 seconds.
That means you need a heal pr second of 2333 in order to keep your tank standing.
The boss has 200000 health.
You have 3 minutes to kill him that means you need a raid dps of 1111 in order to kill the boss before it enrages and kills your raid.
So HPS: 2333, DPS: 1111. Boom there is your boss and you can easily balance it.
MMORPG’s today seem to be mostly made in a way that makes them easy to balance and quick to add content to how do you do that?
- Class based with no multi classing. That way you know all abilities all the players have, and can balance around certain character setups.
- All content based around a certain group setup.
It’s the path of least resistance and it lets the developers create new content faster, and balance things easier since there are fewer scenarios to consider.
I'd like to see those tactics work first..........
For example doesn't Rogue's Sap only work on humanoids?
edit: In addition, doesn't shield leave you with a 'weakened soul' or something which means you can't have it recast on you for a certain amount of time?
Yes, Sap works on Humanoids. I'll be more specific then... 5 Rogues vs 5 Humanoids.
The "weakened soul" is not as bad as it sounds. It's nothing. It does not affect any other stats in a bad way. It's simply a synonym for "your spell is still cooling down.". At the start of battle, when the Priests cast it before starting the fight, they get a "free" cast with no cooldown. The cooldown time aka "weakened soul" is over or almost over when the battle starts. (Little tactic experienced gamers use when they play Priest in WoW.). 5 Shadow Priests using Invul Shield along with Shadow magic will be able to easily keep their health up. Even with the Invul Shield cooldown time aka the "weakened soul".
Originally posted by AfroJoel
Originally posted by xplororor
Getting hit while first-aiding interupts it
Yes. That is why I mentioned a Mage would first cast their Freeze spell on the MOB first. It lasts long enough for them to easily recover full health from First Aid.
Originally posted by mutantmagnet
The time it takes for most a ccs to wearoff you've done atleast half your bandaging at low levels and all of your bandanging at high levels. While he is right to say that unusual groups can work I'm leery of his advice when he can say a Doomguard can kill atleast 10 level 60s. THe Doomguard is no where close to being that good.
Incorrect. Any player at any level can max out their First Aid skill to the highest level. At lowest levels, a player character with maximum First Aid skill would almost instantly heal for full health. At highest level's, a player can still have enough time to get all, or almost all their First Aid done. If they are in a group of players, they are even more likely to get all of their First Aid done before getting attacked again.
As far as Doombringers go, I'm simply speaking from my personal experience. It's an awesome sight seeing one in action. I was watching a friend play using his Undead Warlock. I watched as he summoned his Doombringer (sacrificing 1 player in the group). Then he went into a PvP battleground. The enemy players all went after him, and finally killed him. After he rezzed, he came back to the area, and ALL the enemy players were slain by the still rampaging Doombringer. He was laughing with glee, and I was surprised - since I thought it would vanish the same way a Hunter's pet vanishes when the player Hunter dies. It took the enemy players roughly 10 minutes of re-spawning over and over, before they finally killed off the Doombringer. I litterally could not imagine what a group of 5 Warlocks with 5 Doombringers could do.
How many level 60 players do YOU think it takes to bring down a single Doombringer?
Have you even ever played WOW before? That was the most ridiculous and incorrect write-up ever. You're not wrong about 5 warriors being able to do some of the easier 5-mans, just wrong about every other things. And don't get me started on the Doombringer BS.
Your own quote makes itself moot. First you say everything I posted is false and "made up". You even claim I've never played WoW.
You are right that *ANY* classes can succeed. Warriors would have the worst time at it and it would involve corpses runs after most pulls. The Doomguard is a weak pet. It reverts to a decent NPC once it's free but nothing capable of killing lots of players. People not caught offguard would solo it down.
What I'm calling you out for is the lack of understanding of basics game mechanics which makes me doubt you even played the game past level 10. You can "NOT" max First Aid at any level. In Fact, you need 35 to reach 300 skill, and 58 to reach 375. First Aid will "NOT" give you max health. A casters with low HPs might get 50% with the highest bandaids. Most warriors get about 20%. Healing Potions heal even less than Bandaids. You sound like someone who read a few sites about class skills and made your own mind about it.
I hate the archetyps as well but I simply cannot come up with another working idea. A skill based system will show this effectively. Either the quests/npcs are weak so the chars do not matter or group leaders will be looking for chars with specific skill sets to mimic the archetyps. Simply having classes (or skill sets which are tied to roles) disappear will not work out.
It doesn't have to be that way. You're making a lot of assumptions (which the devs of most games do also) and falling into traps. The "classic" method of using classes and having quest NPCs as you describe, would indeed fail to work if you just substitute a skill system for classes. However, one of the assumptions you are making is that the NPC is generated in the "traditional" way. Let me elaborate.
In a "classic" MMORPG setting, the NPC is generated for "level 10 heroes" (say). The devs have made level 10s a certain power level, and they know this NPC is to fight level 10s. So, they make him be "level 10 appropriate" -- that is, just though enough (in theory) for a team of level 10s to take down.
But this is not the only way to do it. For example, you could generate a variable NPC. At its crudest this is level-variable. COH sort of does this. If you walk into a mission as a level 10, you might get a level 10 boss. If you walk into the same mission as a level 12, you get a level 12 boss. So the level matches yours.
But again, we are assuming you'd stop there. But why stop there? If we imagine a world where the player characters are built using skills, why not create an NPC "spawning" system that generates an NPC not just "level appropriate" but "skill appropriate." That is, each skill has counter-skills. So if you want to make him tough, just have the game scan the skills of all the entering party members, and then give the NPC the appropriate counter-skills.
Now, this is going to require two things. First, it's going to need a random NPC generation system that works to generate NPCs of the right skill sets and power levels. That will take much testing and planning. Second, it's going to need really good AI (beyond what we have today) because the NPC has to be programmed to be able to use just about any skill combo. These things have not been done (well) in any MMORPG I have ever seen (good AI and really good spawning algorithms), so this would take a great deal of work. However, it's certainly theoretically possible.
If you combined a skill-based system for the PCs, with a scaled spawning system for NPCs, where the NPCs were given counter-skills appropriate to the skills of the PCs, you'd have just as good a set of fights as scaling the NPC to the PCs' level in a classical type game. After all, the only thing you being level 14 fighting level 14 mobs really means, is that they have about the right set of counter-skills to give you a challenge. The main difference between "skill based" and "classic" is that all NPC AI and skill sets are pre-determined and fixed, and in a skill-based system you'd need them to be more dynamic/changeable.
For one thing ,any game that allows all class to do the same thing would be a game designed around soloing.This is what 99.99% of all asian games do,wich totally defeats the purpose of playing an MMO .
If all the classes can operate in the same manner ,there really would be no class distinction whatsoever.It is possible to do anything with any class ,but it won't be as effective,for the simple reason that there is distinction between classes.
Tank/DD/healer.This is the normal makeup of every game.Any or all of the classes can buff or debuff.Tanks have hate control,do you want healers to have hate control?tanks have higher defence wich is why they are called a tank,do you want healers to also have high defence?Tanks are good with melee weapons/sheilds,do you also want healers to be good with melee and sheilds?
If everything is the same ,then they are not classes anymore ,merely just a name you give them such as bard/cleric or whatever.
Everything i have said is just so obvious that you can't change the makeup of a GOOD game that is based on group play.Even though this is true,that doesn't mean you can't play outside the norm.It is very doable you just have to show you have some smarts,and are not just WOW players ,thinking everything revolves around soloing in WOW to endgame,then thinking your leet cus you joined some endgame guild.Wow has dumbed down the whole new wave of gamers ,making them very poor players in any other game they join.
A simple scenario to wich i have done to show you how any class can do the same.You have a party of all mages[6].we all know mages cannot take hits,because they are designed around damage not defense.Try spreading out your mages so they transfer hate around.Make it so that you take turns nuking thereby making the MOB runaround,not continually hitting the same player if any at all.It is possible to make the mob run from one player to another with never a hit on any of them.If hate cant be transferred evenly,it may take a couple heals,until the hate can be drawn away.I have done this with 4 black mages,not even a full party of 6.You have to know when to nuke and how often,a good game shouldn't be designed around button mashing your best nuke over and over.This is how asian games are,you button mash and heal pot over and over,never really using any skills whatsoever.Most games have rooting abilities wich can also play into a parties effectiveness with no tank.An all tank group is the hardest to play outside the norm but again is doable.Most games allow for faster healing regen if you rest,well just have each tank take turns resting while other 5 trasnfer hate around.The skill with an all tank group would be to make sure each player has enough hate to pull off another tank at any time.
This is why FFXi has and will for a long time have the best all round battle system out there.The battles are based on group play,but strategies can and are ongoing and reactive,not button mashing with no thought.You do not have endless healing or endless nuking and you do not regenerate at lightning speeds so you can kill over and over never a stop.It makes you think about what you are doing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Thank you sir. Our discussion has ended. You've done a 360 degree turn.
Warriors would have the worst time at it and it would involve corpses runs after most pulls.
I posted a general strategy the OP can use that would reduce the chance of any corpse runs. Any group of 5 of every class would have to use customized strategy. It's all about the strategy. And practice using it - as I told the OP to get his group of 5 "crazed axemen" aka warriors to first practice on an easier group of 5 MOBs first.
The Doomguard is a weak pet. It reverts to a decent NPC once it's free but nothing capable of killing lots of players. People not caught offguard would solo it down.
I mentioned the Doomer in passing. I was bringing attention to the power of the Warlock (Undead Warlock is even better, never needs food.). Which is simular to the Hunter. A group of 5 Warlocks/5 Hunters can very easily break the traditional "forced mold" of Tank-healer-damage dealer.
What I'm calling you out for is the lack of understanding of basics game mechanics which makes me doubt you even played the game past level 10.
There you go again, making up more stuff. First it was that I never played WoW. Not it's that I've never played past level 10. I'll just re-mention your recent quote: The one at the top of this reply in which you say "You are right that any class can succeed." - Enough said.
You can "NOT" max First Aid at any level. In Fact, you need 35 to reach 300 skill, and 58 to reach 375. First Aid will "NOT" give you max health. A casters with low HPs might get 50% with the highest bandaids. Most warriors get about 20%. Healing Potions heal even less than Bandaids. You sound like someone who read a few sites about class skills and made your own mind about it.
It IS possible that with the new BC (Burning Crusade) expansion Blizzard made some of the First Aid skills now level dependent. Blizz nerfed tons of "freebies" that players were using for years. For example how any player any level could disenchant ANY item no matter how powerful the item. With the new expansion, DE's (DisEnchantments) became more level dependent.
I never asked. YOU are the one who first started making things up, such as saying I have never ever played WoW. The thing is... all your negative made up comments about my postings in this tread, is made moot by your same comments saying I am right. I simply threw your own made up medicine back at you in a satirical way.... do you really think I'd really attempt to post a detailed general strat for sooo many classes, (telling what a group of 5 of the same class vs 5 MOBs could do to win) if I had never ever played WoW? Are you ready for me to slam your newest made up claim that I've never played past level 10? LOL.
This kind of thread always make me laugh and shake my head.
I mean many reasonble people who've played MMOs now understand that the current Dev teams are absolutely clueless.
Mere programers and used car salesmen given some title that makes them think they are game designers.And thats really bad.
But whats worse is the prospective customers who buy their crap hook line and sinker.
The key to making a classless or MMO system that can correctly embrace solo or group play, is simply to allow a "route to victory" for each possible player.
The old door explanation from like 10+ years ago explains it very well.
A Fighter like char approachs a locked door he must get thru-he needs a way to do so.The game designer allows the fighter to break down the door using the fighters primary focus- strength and weapon skill.
A mage like character approachs the same kind of door-he alos needs a way past it.the game designer gives that char type a spell that opens the door.his primary char focus being spell use.
A thief character approachs the same kind of door- he also needs a way thru it.The game designer gives that char type a way to pick the lock,thereby getting past the door.etc...
This is not in anyway equal to the complexity of the meaning of life.It isnt.
Sadly, no one ever listens.The Devs,from whatever "team" they are on now,after leaving their last disaster surely dont listen.I can understand their reason for doing so,they dont want to acknowledge they cant do the jobs they are being paid for.
They'd much rather cling to their inneptitude and convince you they are some kind of hero that you should follow from disaster to disaster."Surely the last game wasnt their fault"
Its you, the supposed intelligent people who are their prospective customers i just really dont get.The answers to this and many other issues Devs just cant seem to wrap their heads around have been answered time after time ,after time,on forum after forum after forum.
Why you dont listen ? I just cant figure out.
An intelligent mmo (or rpg) system, allows the player to decide the role his char will play in the game.It doesnt let some half-baked lame char system define the role.
You are right that *ANY* classes can succeed. Thank you sir. Our discussion has ended. You've done a 360 degree turn.
No, I said that much in my first post. Just because you were wrong in every other statement you have made in this thread doesn't mean you didn't get something right. Warriors would have the worst time at it and it would involve corpses runs after most pulls. I posted a general strategy the OP can use that would reduce the chance of any corpse runs. Any group of 5 of every class would have to use customized strategy. It's all about the strategy. And practice using it - as I told the OP to get his group of 5 "crazed axemen" aka warriors to first practice on an easier group of 5 MOBs first.
No, you posted a *censored* writeup which breaks game rules, not a working strategy The Doomguard is a weak pet. It reverts to a decent NPC once it's free but nothing capable of killing lots of players. People not caught offguard would solo it down. I mentioned the Doomer in passing. I was bringing attention to the power of the Warlock (Undead Warlock is even better, never needs food.). Which is simular to the Hunter. A group of 5 Warlocks/5 Hunters can very easily break the traditional "forced mold" of Tank-healer-damage dealer.
What I'm calling you out for is the lack of understanding of basics game mechanics which makes me doubt you even played the game past level 10. There you go again, making up more stuff. First it was that I never played WoW. Not it's that I've never played past level 10. I'll just re-mention your recent quote: The one at the top of this reply in which you say "You are right that any class can succeed." - Enough said. Does one really need to have even played WoW to know that? You can "NOT" max First Aid at any level. In Fact, you need 35 to reach 300 skill, and 58 to reach 375. First Aid will "NOT" give you max health. A casters with low HPs might get 50% with the highest bandaids. Most warriors get about 20%. Healing Potions heal even less than Bandaids. You sound like someone who read a few sites about class skills and made your own mind about it. It IS possible that with the new BC (Burning Crusade) expansion Blizzard made some of the First Aid skills now level dependent. Blizz nerfed tons of "freebies" that players were using for years. For example how any player any level could disenchant ANY item no matter how powerful the item. With the new expansion, DE's (DisEnchantments) became more level dependent.
I dare you to post some screenshots, after I post my screenshots.
Have.... you... played WoW?
????????? Contradicting yourself again?
YOU are the one who first started making things up, such as saying I have never ever played WoW. The thing is... all your negative made up comments about my postings in this tread, is made moot by your same comments saying I am right. I simply threw your own made up medicine back at you in a satirical way.... do you really think I'd really attempt to post a detailed general strat for sooo many classes, (telling what a group of 5 of the same class vs 5 MOBs could do to win) if I had never ever played WoW?
Read my post again, I don't care about your other writeup. Your 5-warriors strategy was so wrong, I didn't even bother with the rest.
Are you ready for me to slam your newest made up claim that I've never played past level 10? LOL.When I made the second post, I really did assume you had posted the screenshot in good faith, but that whole "kid caught with his hands in the cookie jar attitude" made me reconsider. I think you just looked around and found a few WoW screenshots on the Web and posted them here. I retract myself, I don't think you ever played WoW.
You still haven't explained your "Potions heal health to 100%" and "Bandaids heals for 100%" You haven't explained why your warriors writeup breaks basic games mechanics rules.
With that being said, I think the problems is that gamers are by nature min-maxers. There's always a more efficient group makeup and people gravitates towards it. If a game developer were to make a game that compensated according to your group makeup and made the difficulty the same, no matter who was in the group, I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. The problem is that the programming and balancing nightmare that it would incurs pretty much ensures it will never be done.
to the op -- COx is probably what you're looking for. just make magic-based fantasy type heroes/villains, if you need the fantasy genre.
eve has no such things at all. of course, it does have cheating staff/devs.
i'm sure there's a few other games out there, but none as "pretty" as the above examples.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
In WoW, I have been in groups of all Hunters, all Warriors, all Paladins (strongest group of all), all casters, and every time we succeeded. Too many gamers are not REAL gamers aka have the mindset of original gamers from the 1970's - early 1990's that is always saying "I wonder what happens if I do this?"., "Let me try this and see if it can work!". Many modern "gamers" are too spoiled, consulting cheat books, cheat internet sites, walkthrough books, WALKTHROUGH internet sites, scared to experiment, scared to play a single game without using a walkthrough book/website. Scared to .... xplooooooor!
i just have to ask... since all the GOOD stuff is in raids... how many raids of all hunters, all warriors, or all paladins, have you been part of, and how many have succeeded?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I have bounced around quite a few mmorpg's starting with EQ1.
I recently canceled my WoW subscription because I am of the required classes you need to have a successful group.
It has been so many years and still all the games developed don't allow 5 crazed axe men to successfully do "end game content." ( however that is defined, raids are a cop out on the devs part )
Allow a group of "healing" classes to run instances. Let a "support class" party take down a boss.
The main beef I have with this is all my friends like to play the crazed axe men. We like to play together yet we are penalized and forced to group apart or forced to play a class we really don't like.
Requiring a class x, y and z in a group also tends to create time where you sit around waiting for John Smith to login the magic class so you can start. ( insert healer here )
Whatever happened to the great times when you could hop on a lan with your friends ( no matter what class they play ) and start having fun in like 30 seconds?
You can still have interesting and technical boss fights, the devs would just have to work out a new system.
They have been using the same dang system for years. Sure it may work, or rather be easy for them, but it is old, tired and needs a good kick in the nuts.
Give the players some freedom with what "works" as a group.
Personally I still think it will be a few years before developers get out of the current game mechanics rut they have been in for so many years.
I'm not saying get rid of groups. I'm saying get rid of interesting boss fights. Just change the age old grouping system so it doesn't matter what your friends play as, so you can all have fun together doing any part of the game.
Anyone else looking for something new?
So what you are telling me is that you would rather have a game that penalizes those who like to heal? The reason dungeons and end game are made the way they are is to promote a balance of all the kinds of classes an MMORPG can offer. By your standards it would actually HURT a group to replace a dps person with a healer because a 5man could be slaughtered by a bunch of guys hitting attack buttons.
If you like hack and slash play Diablo II or any other hack and slash RPG. Those games are geared towards the big dumb and stupid melees who think potion consumption is right under breathing in order of importance. Meanwhile most MMORPG people will thank heavens that some people actually enjoy end game healing and would rather not stand 1 inch away from the mob stabbing it with knives.
In WoW, I have been in groups of all Hunters, all Warriors, all Paladins (strongest group of all), all casters, and every time we succeeded. Too many gamers are not REAL gamers aka have the mindset of original gamers from the 1970's - early 1990's that is always saying "I wonder what happens if I do this?"., "Let me try this and see if it can work!". Many modern "gamers" are too spoiled, consulting cheat books, cheat internet sites, walkthrough books, WALKTHROUGH internet sites, scared to experiment, scared to play a single game without using a walkthrough book/website. Scared to .... xplooooooor!
i just have to ask... since all the GOOD stuff is in raids... how many raids of all hunters, all warriors, or all paladins, have you been part of, and how many have succeeded?
I would like to see a raid of all Paladins, actually. It would be interesting to see if any class could do that.
I have bounced around quite a few mmorpg's starting with EQ1.
I recently canceled my WoW subscription because I am of the required classes you need to have a successful group.
It has been so many years and still all the games developed don't allow 5 crazed axe men to successfully do "end game content." ( however that is defined, raids are a cop out on the devs part )
Allow a group of "healing" classes to run instances. Let a "support class" party take down a boss.
The main beef I have with this is all my friends like to play the crazed axe men. We like to play together yet we are penalized and forced to group apart or forced to play a class we really don't like.
Requiring a class x, y and z in a group also tends to create time where you sit around waiting for John Smith to login the magic class so you can start. ( insert healer here )
Whatever happened to the great times when you could hop on a lan with your friends ( no matter what class they play ) and start having fun in like 30 seconds?
You can still have interesting and technical boss fights, the devs would just have to work out a new system.
They have been using the same dang system for years. Sure it may work, or rather be easy for them, but it is old, tired and needs a good kick in the nuts.
Give the players some freedom with what "works" as a group.
Personally I still think it will be a few years before developers get out of the current game mechanics rut they have been in for so many years.
I'm not saying get rid of groups. I'm saying get rid of interesting boss fights. Just change the age old grouping system so it doesn't matter what your friends play as, so you can all have fun together doing any part of the game.
Anyone else looking for something new?
So what you are telling me is that you would rather have a game that penalizes those who like to heal? The reason dungeons and end game are made the way they are is to promote a balance of all the kinds of classes an MMORPG can offer. By your standards it would actually HURT a group to replace a dps person with a healer because a 5man could be slaughtered by a bunch of guys hitting attack buttons.
If you like hack and slash play Diablo II or any other hack and slash RPG. Those games are geared towards the big dumb and stupid melees who think potion consumption is right under breathing in order of importance. Meanwhile most MMORPG people will thank heavens that some people actually enjoy end game healing and would rather not stand 1 inch away from the mob stabbing it with knives.
or... devs coulds top using lame raid dungeons/instances as cop outs and come out with REAL content instead of just more mind numbingly boring grind garbage.
i was chilling, kinda watching tv, kinda watching my friend go on a raid in wow.
they all went to the dungeon. half an hour later, they're all still sitting there. i asked who they were waiting for all this time. "no one, this is how you raid, you plan for 30-45 minutes, fight for 5 minutes, rinse repeat" he said.
sure enough, as i started watching movies, that is what they'd do. hang out for a literal 30-45 minutes, while their blowhard guild leader talked talked talked... how much talking is involved in killing a boss? a lot it seems, since doing 30 minutes of fighting takes 5-6 hours.
but that was fun? he said he was having fun. odd, i never saw him smile. i see him smile and hear him laugh when we play a game and go pvping. i'm pretty sure the smiling and laughing indicate he's having fun. his saying he's having fun while sitting there looking stonecold bored... i just don't see that being fun.
soooooooooo i said all that to say....
i find cox very repetitive, as much so as wow, if that's possible. no, i take that back. it's ALMOST as bad as wow. if i play (cox) and i see anyone saying they HAVE to have a healer/empath/healer class, i make a mental note to NEVER group with that moron.
why? because you can fight all sorts of big bads and not HAVE to have a healer. conversely, you have all sorts of powersets that have some sort of healing included. combined with lots of buffs and debuffs....
i think cox's devs give a total cop-out when it comes to high level content and should be beat mercilessly because of it. because of wow's stupidity, i completely despise strike/task forces.
but the whole point is... we're not children (well maybe some are, but a lot of us AREN'T), and some of us like having control over our toons like in pre-cu swg, eve, ultima online, games like that. if i want a completely (more or less cookie cutter) predefined toon with everything from stats to spells assigned to me; then i'll play some fps, or an rts.
bleh. noobs.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I have bounced around quite a few mmorpg's starting with EQ1.
I recently canceled my WoW subscription because I am of the required classes you need to have a successful group.
It has been so many years and still all the games developed don't allow 5 crazed axe men to successfully do "end game content." ( however that is defined, raids are a cop out on the devs part )
Allow a group of "healing" classes to run instances. Let a "support class" party take down a boss.
The main beef I have with this is all my friends like to play the crazed axe men. We like to play together yet we are penalized and forced to group apart or forced to play a class we really don't like.
Requiring a class x, y and z in a group also tends to create time where you sit around waiting for John Smith to login the magic class so you can start. ( insert healer here )
Whatever happened to the great times when you could hop on a lan with your friends ( no matter what class they play ) and start having fun in like 30 seconds?
You can still have interesting and technical boss fights, the devs would just have to work out a new system.
They have been using the same dang system for years. Sure it may work, or rather be easy for them, but it is old, tired and needs a good kick in the nuts.
Give the players some freedom with what "works" as a group.
Personally I still think it will be a few years before developers get out of the current game mechanics rut they have been in for so many years.
I'm not saying get rid of groups. I'm saying get rid of interesting boss fights. Just change the age old grouping system so it doesn't matter what your friends play as, so you can all have fun together doing any part of the game.
Anyone else looking for something new?
So what you are telling me is that you would rather have a game that penalizes those who like to heal? The reason dungeons and end game are made the way they are is to promote a balance of all the kinds of classes an MMORPG can offer. By your standards it would actually HURT a group to replace a dps person with a healer because a 5man could be slaughtered by a bunch of guys hitting attack buttons.
If you like hack and slash play Diablo II or any other hack and slash RPG. Those games are geared towards the big dumb and stupid melees who think potion consumption is right under breathing in order of importance. Meanwhile most MMORPG people will thank heavens that some people actually enjoy end game healing and would rather not stand 1 inch away from the mob stabbing it with knives.
or... devs coulds top using lame raid dungeons/instances as cop outs and come out with REAL content instead of just more mind numbingly boring grind garbage.
i was chilling, kinda watching tv, kinda watching my friend go on a raid in wow.
they all went to the dungeon. half an hour later, they're all still sitting there. i asked who they were waiting for all this time. "no one, this is how you raid, you plan for 30-45 minutes, fight for 5 minutes, rinse repeat" he said.
sure enough, as i started watching movies, that is what they'd do. hang out for a literal 30-45 minutes, while their blowhard guild leader talked talked talked... how much talking is involved in killing a boss? a lot it seems, since doing 30 minutes of fighting takes 5-6 hours.
but that was fun? he said he was having fun. odd, i never saw him smile. i see him smile and hear him laugh when we play a game and go pvping. i'm pretty sure the smiling and laughing indicate he's having fun. his saying he's having fun while sitting there looking stonecold bored... i just don't see that being fun.
soooooooooo i said all that to say....
i find cox very repetitive, as much so as wow, if that's possible. no, i take that back. it's ALMOST as bad as wow. if i play (cox) and i see anyone saying they HAVE to have a healer/empath/healer class, i make a mental note to NEVER group with that moron.
why? because you can fight all sorts of big bads and not HAVE to have a healer. conversely, you have all sorts of powersets that have some sort of healing included. combined with lots of buffs and debuffs....
i think cox's devs give a total cop-out when it comes to high level content and should be beat mercilessly because of it. because of wow's stupidity, i completely despise strike/task forces.
but the whole point is... we're not children (well maybe some are, but a lot of us AREN'T), and some of us like having control over our toons like in pre-cu swg, eve, ultima online, games like that. if i want a completely (more or less cookie cutter) predefined toon with everything from stats to spells assigned to me; then i'll play some fps, or an rts.
bleh. noobs.
"pre-cu swg, eve, ultima online"
Looks like you have found what you're looking for already. Have fun.
Really odd groups can sometimes do things you wouldn't consider them capable of. For example, I once ran Shadowfang keep with Voidwalkers as our maintank and offtank. We were a party of pure DPSers with one healer. It was a holy flaming bitch to take down Arugal at the end, but we eventually did it. In fact once we figured out our strategy we went back to get his robes for both the 'locks. I've also done astounding things in pure hunter parties, I'm sure there are other odd comboes that work well.
That said, it depends on the instance and it depends on the classes and specs you're talking about. If you are all willing to run out and respec every time you start a new five man, I would say it's perhaps possible to run any of the non-heroics with any five classes. However, you will not be able to do very many raids with a poorly balanced team, and I seriously doubt you will be able to do any of the heroic fives mans without a classic tank/ healer/ DPS at the core of your team.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
No, you posted a *censored* writeup which breaks game rules, not a working strategy
I've never broken game rules, nor have ever encouraged anyone else to break game rules. My little general 5 man warrior group strat I wrote on page 2 of this thread in no way what-so-ever breaks any game rules. You litterally keep making stuff up. Stop it.
Does one really need to have even played WoW to know that? Your asking if one needs to play WoW to be able to post any type of strategies for various classes? If you personally think one who has not played WoW really can get away with posting any coherent strategies to be used in WoW then you have some bad "conspiracy" issues. "Oh my! Someone posted an idea/ideas/stratagies that I have never ever thought of before! No way they can work! No way! It automatically means in my mind they have never played the game at alllllll!!!". I posted the strat for the OP to use with his team members. Not for you personally. I leave it to the OP to make of it what he wants. I even offered to make a new character on whatever server he plays on, level up to his level, and personally show him how its done with a group of 5 warriors. For you to come on these forums and STILL post that I'm making things up, in light of me extending such an offer to the OP, shows you are not here for constructive discussion. You are here simply to confuse, stir things up - all for no reason. Aka Trolling.
Originally posted by xplororor
I dare you to post some screenshots, after I post my screenshots.
Have.... you... played WoW?
????????? Contradicting yourself again?
For some reason you keep skipping the part of my quotes where I said YOU first made up things based on no facts. One example is you saying I have never played WoW. Which you first made up, even though I posted various strats, AND I extended an offer to the OP to make a new character on whatever server he plays on, level up to his level, and show him how the strats work. You litterally do not get it. I leave it at that in replying to your now Trolling.
Read my post again, I don't care about your other writeup. Your 5-warriors strategy was so wrong, I didn't even bother with the rest.
Hey, I offered to make a new character on whatever server the OP plays on. IF my posted warrior strategey did not work, I would not make such an offer. As for you, I never made that post for you. It does not matter if you dislike it. You need not comment on it. It's not for you. Good of you to not have wasted your time "bothering with it."
When I made the second post, I really did assume you had posted the screenshot in good faith, but that whole "kid caught with his hands in the cookie jar attitude" made me reconsider. I think you just looked around and found a few WoW screenshots on the Web and posted them here. I retract myself, I don't think you ever played WoW.
The fact you would post something completly made up, saying I've never played WoW, based on absolutly nothing, shows YOU started posting in this thread posting NOT in good faith. The whole "omg, someone posted a strat I never thought of. That I've never tried to see if it works. He even offered to make a new character on the OP's server to guide him on how this strat I've never thought about, works??? How dare he think he knows more about WoW than I, Mr Uber Player, know!?! I'm soo angrey that he might have thought of something I never ever thought of!! I'll try to shoot him down by making things up about him aka by Trolling!".
If you really want to think I looked around the internet until I finally found a random pic of a player with the same name as my handle, then your own arguement applies to the pic you posted.... according to YOU, you looked around the internet until you found a random pic of a player with the same name as your handle then you posted it here.
You still haven't explained your "Potions heal health to 100%" and "Bandaids heals for 100%" You haven't explained why your warriors writeup breaks basic games mechanics rules.
I never wrote any of my original posts on page 2 for you. I wrote them for the OP. I also offered, not to you, but to the OP, to make a character on his server, and show him how the strat I posted works. I'll show him how to use first aid and potions, and how to chain stun a mob with a group of 5 "crazed axmen" aka Warriors. I don't mind spending time showing, and coaching in game, the OP, since he posted this thread in very good faith, with the attitude of being opened to learning more from seasoned gamers who have broken the mold that game DEVs try to force players into playing.
And more proof that YOU may have never played WoW, is your new made up charge that I'm promoting breaking game mechanic rules. None of the moves, and strategies I posted on page 2 of this thread are illegal, or against any of WoW's rules.
With that being said, I think the problems is that gamers are by nature min-maxers. There's always a more efficient group makeup and people gravitates towards it. If a game developer were to make a game that compensated according to your group makeup and made the difficulty the same, no matter who was in the group, I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. The problem is that the programming and balancing nightmare that it would incurs pretty much ensures it will never be done.
I agree the majority of present gamers take the path of least resistance. There are also many gamers, true gamers who litterally study a game as they play. Or they are soo experienced, that they have seen soo many formulas used in past games, that they can easily, near instantly, recignize what works, might work, and will work. They can play it out in their head, then make it work in game. This is where I come in and say, any true gamer can break the Tank/Healer/Damage Dealer mold... IF they want to. Since the OP used WoW, I also used WoW. Since the OP talked about if it could be done with a 5 man group, I kept it to a 5 man group. And yes, in WoW a 5 man group of all warriors can work aka break the mold. No need at all to wait for a game DEV to change the game.
One funny thing is, the "more efficient group" that the masses think works the best, at many times is not the best. A group of 5 Warriors in WoW has little need of a healer, can litterally make it without a healer. They actually can do better without one, since everyone in the group can take a bad beating, AND everyone in the group can instantly trade aggro all around. A group of all Rogues (fighting Humanoids heheh) are litterally near immortal since they all can use Vanish. No need at all for a Healer.
Quick small example of a true gamer thinking outside the box : - My friend was once in a group with his rogue. When they got up to the last boss in the instance, he told the group to let him tank first, NOT the traditional tank who was the Warrior. The group actually had 2 warriors. The group argued with him, telling him he was crazy and would die. He said no, he had the best chance out of everyone in the group of tanking, including better than the warriors. He said the Rogue is the best Tank in the entire game. He also told the healer to not heal him at all. More arguing, and name calling directed to him. They finally gave in and followed his strategy. He went in first, got all the aggro, while the rest of the group joined the battle one at a time. His health of course gradually shot down, since his armor is not the best there is. He took a potion aka got "second wind". And now had enough Rogue Combo Points built up to activate all his Evasion moves, and other Rogue moves. The battle continued. His health gradually went down again. Right when it seemed he would die, he did VANISH, then walked away some feet. The boss is now at half health. The healer is at full mana, never having to used a single heal spell. The traditional tank - the Warrior, is now at full health, not yet recieving a single scratch. The battle continued. My friend then used First Aid on himself, got back to full health, then rejoined the battle. EVERYONE is at full health, and full mana, with the boss MOB now at half health.
The traditional way would have had the Warrior go in first with everyone else joining the battle. When the boss was at half health the Warrior aka Tank would have also had lowered health, and the healer would also have lowered mana. This translates into the group being on worse footing, since the Warrior Tank and Healer are now suffering. Plus increased chances the Healer would be further near death since every time he heals, he gets full aggro.
The OP needs to grow up and maybe realize that implications to a game like what he is suggesting are serious in taking any amount of fun right out. What you want is stupidity. A game like what you are asking for where anyone can fill any role can be summed up by playing DAoC and watching a couple friars on Mordred fight it out. They both get to do decent melee damage like a tank, they get the support roles of healing and buffing and they both make for the most boring fight you might ever watch. I seriously can't see a game where every single person in the game would be the equivalent of friars all trying to kill each other. 1v1 is mind numbingly bad, 100v100 of these kinds of people would be an exercise in futility. The only other way you could have what you want in a game would be if monsters never got harder than what a couple people could take out quickly. There you go, a game with ZERO epic encounters. ZERO monsters that are even a threat. Guy wants his group of 8 crazy ax men to do what a well balanced group can do. The serious problem with that is when real people are fighting real people. I really don't want to think about how boring a fight between 2 fg's of friars would be because what turns the tide between 2 balanced groups is that there are weak links in the chain. If you can't find a hole then it becomes a stalemate. What would make you happy in pve would completely ruin any chance of anything in pvp/rvr outside of the health potion spam fests like what's in RFO.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
Woot! that's sounds sweet! Instead of things like skill, now its all about who has the most money for heal potions or who has the largest pool of whatever it takes to mitigate/heal damage. Instead of having a group saying you don't fulfill our needs because you're not the right class or because you don't have the right skills, it would change to we don't want you in our group because you don't have a large enough pool of whatever it takes to mitigate/heal.
Have to love shortsighted posters that think his idea is stupid. Go play Asheron's call and tell me it cannot be done. Never saw so many brainwashed posts on one thread. Can any of you step back and talk objectively about the subject?
You cannot do it in Wow because the designers don't want you to do it, not that they can't. Problem with class based systems, it puts everyone into rigid roles. Skill based systems are far more flexible. Trouble is all these stupid devs are stuck in remaking Wow these days. There is very little innovation. And no Wow did not offer anything that was innovative, it is strictly a regurgitated EQ with an accent on easy of play in a different setting.
Far as I am concerned if a game has classes it is already strictly an EQ copycat system and if you enjoy being pigeonholed into specific roles I suppose that is ok, but you are always stuck in the "looking for a healer", "looking for a tank" mode.
It is really a shame that turbine went off on an EQ binge with ACII, they really had a gem in AC that with some polish could have been far better than anything on the market.
Comments
For example doesn't Rogue's Sap only work on humanoids?
edit: In addition, doesn't shield leave you with a 'weakened soul' or something which means you can't have it recast on you for a certain amount of time?
Have you even ever played WOW before? That was the most ridiculous and incorrect write-up ever. You're not wrong about 5 warriors being able to do some of the easier 5-mans, just wrong about every other things. And don't get me started on the Doombringer BS.
Tell me what Server name in WoW you play on. I will make a new Warrior character, get it to whatever level you and your friends are, and train you and your friends how to do it! Or whatever other class you and your friends are.
One of the sorriest, saddest, sights I have EVER seen in WoW -> I'm battling giant raptors and 6 legged giant allegators in the land far, far, south of Duskwood. I'm holding my own, doing OK. Suddently a Mage a few levels higher than me runs by and stops. "Help me! Save me!" he yells. He was near dead, with almost no mana. He had frozen whatever MOB he was battling, and ran away. It would soon come after him after it unfroze. If he ran any further, he risked running into more new MOBs, then pulling a train on himself. I stood there in disbelief as he did not do a single FIRST AID on himself! Soon the MOB he had frozen came running up, he ran in circles for a while, but it finally nibbled on him enough to kill him. I could not help because I was still eating my food, re-healing from my battling.
IF he were a true gamer, he would have maxed out his first aid skill as soon as possible. Then during any battle, if he finds himself near death, he casts his freezing spell, then first aid himself. Viola, he's set. He can even cast the spell that restores his mana, or use mana potion, or move a way some feet and try sitting and drinking juice to restore mana, while the enemy is still frozen. True gamers don't just play games. They THINK while they play whatever game. They continously LEARN and experiment with the game they are playing.
Getting hit while first-aiding interupts itThe time it takes for most a ccs to wearoff you've done atleast half your bandaging at low levels and all of your bandanging at high levels. While he is right to say that unusual groups can work I'm leery of his advice when he can say a Doomguard can kill atleast 10 level 60s. THe Doomguard is no where close to being that good.
Good examples. I would add that it would be a lot of fun if there was more than one strategy, depending on the group makeup. Everyone is familiar with the tank, nuke, heal, crowd control dynamic and how it works.
It would be fun if other strategies opened up depending on how the group was made up. Rather than just give bonuses, which might not make the game challenging enough, require the players to adopt different tactics.
For example, a group of crazed axe men (I'm assuming they are tanks) might get the ability to manage aggro by trading off which of them is being hit so they can spread their massive hit points around, even without a healer. So instead of just attacking, and letting the mob get aggro on one tank, they have to constantly switch off being Main Tank, but it works just as good as the Tank, Nuke, Healer, combo.
For a group of mages, allow them to set up such that they can kite Mobs if they get in the right position. One casts a spell, as then runs away, then another casts a spell, and the Mobs turns on that one, who runs a way, then the third casts a spell and runs away, rinse repeat until Mob is dead, but If they try to just all cast at once, the creature will run up and kill one of them.
The idea is you still need TEAMWORK, not just a zerg like described in City of Villians (everyone just does their own thing), but different tactics work for different groups, besides just the tank, nuke, heal group.
MMORPG Maker
I think SWG had the idea right when it came to group setups, you could use any melee class as a tank for high end mobs, you could also use ranged players to tank certain other mobs.
Everyone could have a degree of healing but it was possible to push your mitigation so high through skills and armor that you didn’t really need healing if you were completely buffed along with had the right armor.
So you could have a group of pure dps players and it would still work if you used the buffs etc.
You could also use a standard group but it wasn’t more or less effective than an off group.
I think the only way to get rid of the cookie cutter groups is to introduce specializations and certain ways to utilize buffs and gear.
For instance if you have 5 classes in “wartimes (a quick made up game) and the max group is 5.
The classes are:
- Warrior – tank
- Cleric – healer
- Wizard – ranged magic dps.
- Necromancer – Debuffer
- Bard – buffer.
Your cookie cutter group would be one of each priest for healing, warrior for tank etc.
But if say you did a party with
Bard – Cleric – wizard – necromancer – bard that group has no tank but what if the different buffs they can give and the debuffs on the mob they are fighting means they can use a bard as a tank for instance?
You can increase the number of classes and the number of people who can be in a group what needs to be done though is to balance the buffs and debuffs to limit their stacking, and power.
If you look at world of warcraft there are a ton of different buffs and debuffs but none that are really powerful in that they are fight changing.
The most powerful buff in WoW is the paladins blessing of kings which increases stats by 10% for 15 minutes.
If you made it so that buffs have “set bonuses” and increase the number of members in a group in “wartimes” to 10 so say if you set up a group
Bard – bard – bard – cleric – cleric – cleric - wizard – necromancer – necromancer – necromancer
Say the Bard has 3 different buffs “battle song of valor”, “battle song of deterrence” and “battle hymn of grace”
BoV – Increases the stamina of all party members within 50 yards by 30%
BoD – Increases the armor mitigation and avoidance values by 30%
BoG – Increases the damage dealt by all party members within 50 yards by 30%
If a target has all 3 buffs the player gains:
Harmonious battle – Increases the effect of all bard buffs on you by 20%.
If you implement similar buffs for all “support classes” it would make it possible to make different groups due to the buffs.
Take a look at what’s needed for each role.
Tank – Damage mitigation, health, avoidance, threat.
Healer – Healing spells.
Dps – Damage dealing spells.
Crowd control – Crowd control spells.
So in order to do a party without a tank you need something to fill that role as damage soak or you need something that can mitigate the loss of a soak.
This can be CC, healing spells, or damage dealing spells, this is quite complex though because:
If you make a boss that can be mezzed to not attack, you under power it if the group has both a mezzer and a tank.
Or if you make a boss that you can dps down so fast because you want it to be possible to kill without a healer, its way to easy to kill if you bring 1 tank, 1 healer and 8 dps classes.
The reason why I liked the SWG setup was that:
- You didn’t have any pure classes pr say, you could build your character exactly the way you want, and regardless of how you built your character you could do 2 roles.
- You didn’t have to have a certain build in order to tank or dps, or heal for that matter.
There was no “sorry we have to wait until Jim gets online with his healer” it was “well let’s just get some more dps then or one more guy to split the tanking”.
Almost everyone had a little bit of healing so it was possible to heal regardless of spec since healing wasn’t done with spells but with crafted healing packs, with a set minimum power.
But this makes it almost impossible to balance as SWG showed.
In World of Warcraft.
Every encounter is balanced around a certain group setup with certain skills in mind.
Every boss for instance is balanced around having a warrior tank with shield block and a certain set of gear and certain buffs.
It makes wow a very easy game to balance.
Ok I make boss A the end boss in the new “zomgepixx” dungeon.
This is a 10 man dungeon.
Ok so I want boss A to have a hard hitting strike.
I want him to hit every 3 seconds.
And I want him to buff himself to deal 300% more damage if he isn’t dead within 3 minutes of the encounter.
So let’s start with the tank, the boss does not drop agro and go for other players so it’s a tank and spank fight.
It’s a level 70 boss so the players fighting him will be level 70.
A level 70 warrior in tanking gear set for this encounter will have 490 defenses (the cap that pretty much removes the chance of getting hit by a critical strike).
He will have at least 13000 HP with regular raid buffs.
He has shield block so he will block 2 attacks every 5 seconds (the CD on shield block is 5 seconds) meaning that he will never be hit by a crushing blow by this boss.
The boss hits for say 2000 with his auto attack every 3 seconds, plus 1 strike of doom for 3000 damage. This means 7000 damage every 3 seconds.
That means you need a heal pr second of 2333 in order to keep your tank standing.
The boss has 200000 health.
You have 3 minutes to kill him that means you need a raid dps of 1111 in order to kill the boss before it enrages and kills your raid.
So HPS: 2333, DPS: 1111. Boom there is your boss and you can easily balance it.
MMORPG’s today seem to be mostly made in a way that makes them easy to balance and quick to add content to how do you do that?
- Class based with no multi classing. That way you know all abilities all the players have, and can balance around certain character setups.
- All content based around a certain group setup.
It’s the path of least resistance and it lets the developers create new content faster, and balance things easier since there are fewer scenarios to consider.
The "weakened soul" is not as bad as it sounds. It's nothing. It does not affect any other stats in a bad way. It's simply a synonym for "your spell is still cooling down.". At the start of battle, when the Priests cast it before starting the fight, they get a "free" cast with no cooldown. The cooldown time aka "weakened soul" is over or almost over when the battle starts. (Little tactic experienced gamers use when they play Priest in WoW.). 5 Shadow Priests using Invul Shield along with Shadow magic will be able to easily keep their health up. Even with the Invul Shield cooldown time aka the "weakened soul".
Getting hit while first-aiding interupts it
Yes. That is why I mentioned a Mage would first cast their Freeze spell on the MOB first. It lasts long enough for them to easily recover full health from First Aid.
Incorrect. Any player at any level can max out their First Aid skill to the highest level. At lowest levels, a player character with maximum First Aid skill would almost instantly heal for full health. At highest level's, a player can still have enough time to get all, or almost all their First Aid done. If they are in a group of players, they are even more likely to get all of their First Aid done before getting attacked again.
As far as Doombringers go, I'm simply speaking from my personal experience. It's an awesome sight seeing one in action. I was watching a friend play using his Undead Warlock. I watched as he summoned his Doombringer (sacrificing 1 player in the group). Then he went into a PvP battleground. The enemy players all went after him, and finally killed him. After he rezzed, he came back to the area, and ALL the enemy players were slain by the still rampaging Doombringer. He was laughing with glee, and I was surprised - since I thought it would vanish the same way a Hunter's pet vanishes when the player Hunter dies. It took the enemy players roughly 10 minutes of re-spawning over and over, before they finally killed off the Doombringer. I litterally could not imagine what a group of 5 Warlocks with 5 Doombringers could do.
How many level 60 players do YOU think it takes to bring down a single Doombringer?
Have you even ever played WOW before? That was the most ridiculous and incorrect write-up ever. You're not wrong about 5 warriors being able to do some of the easier 5-mans, just wrong about every other things. And don't get me started on the Doombringer BS.
Your own quote makes itself moot. First you say everything I posted is false and "made up". You even claim I've never played WoW.
community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives03
Then you say I'm right that a group of all warriors can succeed. I dare you to post some screenshots, after I post my screenshots.
Have.... you... played WoW?
What I'm calling you out for is the lack of understanding of basics game mechanics which makes me doubt you even played the game past level 10. You can "NOT" max First Aid at any level. In Fact, you need 35 to reach 300 skill, and 58 to reach 375. First Aid will "NOT" give you max health. A casters with low HPs might get 50% with the highest bandaids. Most warriors get about 20%. Healing Potions heal even less than Bandaids. You sound like someone who read a few sites about class skills and made your own mind about it.
oh and, since you asked
img177.imageshack.us/img177/9653/wowscrnshot112606ua9.jpg
In a "classic" MMORPG setting, the NPC is generated for "level 10 heroes" (say). The devs have made level 10s a certain power level, and they know this NPC is to fight level 10s. So, they make him be "level 10 appropriate" -- that is, just though enough (in theory) for a team of level 10s to take down.
But this is not the only way to do it. For example, you could generate a variable NPC. At its crudest this is level-variable. COH sort of does this. If you walk into a mission as a level 10, you might get a level 10 boss. If you walk into the same mission as a level 12, you get a level 12 boss. So the level matches yours.
But again, we are assuming you'd stop there. But why stop there? If we imagine a world where the player characters are built using skills, why not create an NPC "spawning" system that generates an NPC not just "level appropriate" but "skill appropriate." That is, each skill has counter-skills. So if you want to make him tough, just have the game scan the skills of all the entering party members, and then give the NPC the appropriate counter-skills.
Now, this is going to require two things. First, it's going to need a random NPC generation system that works to generate NPCs of the right skill sets and power levels. That will take much testing and planning. Second, it's going to need really good AI (beyond what we have today) because the NPC has to be programmed to be able to use just about any skill combo. These things have not been done (well) in any MMORPG I have ever seen (good AI and really good spawning algorithms), so this would take a great deal of work. However, it's certainly theoretically possible.
If you combined a skill-based system for the PCs, with a scaled spawning system for NPCs, where the NPCs were given counter-skills appropriate to the skills of the PCs, you'd have just as good a set of fights as scaling the NPC to the PCs' level in a classical type game. After all, the only thing you being level 14 fighting level 14 mobs really means, is that they have about the right set of counter-skills to give you a challenge. The main difference between "skill based" and "classic" is that all NPC AI and skill sets are pre-determined and fixed, and in a skill-based system you'd need them to be more dynamic/changeable.
C
For one thing ,any game that allows all class to do the same thing would be a game designed around soloing.This is what 99.99% of all asian games do,wich totally defeats the purpose of playing an MMO .
If all the classes can operate in the same manner ,there really would be no class distinction whatsoever.It is possible to do anything with any class ,but it won't be as effective,for the simple reason that there is distinction between classes.
Tank/DD/healer.This is the normal makeup of every game.Any or all of the classes can buff or debuff.Tanks have hate control,do you want healers to have hate control?tanks have higher defence wich is why they are called a tank,do you want healers to also have high defence?Tanks are good with melee weapons/sheilds,do you also want healers to be good with melee and sheilds?
If everything is the same ,then they are not classes anymore ,merely just a name you give them such as bard/cleric or whatever.
Everything i have said is just so obvious that you can't change the makeup of a GOOD game that is based on group play.Even though this is true,that doesn't mean you can't play outside the norm.It is very doable you just have to show you have some smarts,and are not just WOW players ,thinking everything revolves around soloing in WOW to endgame,then thinking your leet cus you joined some endgame guild.Wow has dumbed down the whole new wave of gamers ,making them very poor players in any other game they join.
A simple scenario to wich i have done to show you how any class can do the same.You have a party of all mages[6].we all know mages cannot take hits,because they are designed around damage not defense.Try spreading out your mages so they transfer hate around.Make it so that you take turns nuking thereby making the MOB runaround,not continually hitting the same player if any at all.It is possible to make the mob run from one player to another with never a hit on any of them.If hate cant be transferred evenly,it may take a couple heals,until the hate can be drawn away.I have done this with 4 black mages,not even a full party of 6.You have to know when to nuke and how often,a good game shouldn't be designed around button mashing your best nuke over and over.This is how asian games are,you button mash and heal pot over and over,never really using any skills whatsoever.Most games have rooting abilities wich can also play into a parties effectiveness with no tank.An all tank group is the hardest to play outside the norm but again is doable.Most games allow for faster healing regen if you rest,well just have each tank take turns resting while other 5 trasnfer hate around.The skill with an all tank group would be to make sure each player has enough hate to pull off another tank at any time.
This is why FFXi has and will for a long time have the best all round battle system out there.The battles are based on group play,but strategies can and are ongoing and reactive,not button mashing with no thought.You do not have endless healing or endless nuking and you do not regenerate at lightning speeds so you can kill over and over never a stop.It makes you think about what you are doing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
This kind of thread always make me laugh and shake my head.
I mean many reasonble people who've played MMOs now understand that the current Dev teams are absolutely clueless.
Mere programers and used car salesmen given some title that makes them think they are game designers.And thats really bad.
But whats worse is the prospective customers who buy their crap hook line and sinker.
The key to making a classless or MMO system that can correctly embrace solo or group play, is simply to allow a "route to victory" for each possible player.
The old door explanation from like 10+ years ago explains it very well.
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A Fighter like char approachs a locked door he must get thru-he needs a way to do so.The game designer allows the fighter to break down the door using the fighters primary focus- strength and weapon skill.
A mage like character approachs the same kind of door-he alos needs a way past it.the game designer gives that char type a spell that opens the door.his primary char focus being spell use.
A thief character approachs the same kind of door- he also needs a way thru it.The game designer gives that char type a way to pick the lock,thereby getting past the door.etc...
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This is not in anyway equal to the complexity of the meaning of life.It isnt.
Sadly, no one ever listens.The Devs,from whatever "team" they are on now,after leaving their last disaster surely dont listen.I can understand their reason for doing so,they dont want to acknowledge they cant do the jobs they are being paid for.
They'd much rather cling to their inneptitude and convince you they are some kind of hero that you should follow from disaster to disaster."Surely the last game wasnt their fault"
Its you, the supposed intelligent people who are their prospective customers i just really dont get.The answers to this and many other issues Devs just cant seem to wrap their heads around have been answered time after time ,after time,on forum after forum after forum.
Why you dont listen ? I just cant figure out.
An intelligent mmo (or rpg) system, allows the player to decide the role his char will play in the game.It doesnt let some half-baked lame char system define the role.
????????? Contradicting yourself again?
YOU are the one who first started making things up, such as saying I have never ever played WoW. The thing is... all your negative made up comments about my postings in this tread, is made moot by your same comments saying I am right. I simply threw your own made up medicine back at you in a satirical way.... do you really think I'd really attempt to post a detailed general strat for sooo many classes, (telling what a group of 5 of the same class vs 5 MOBs could do to win) if I had never ever played WoW?
Read my post again, I don't care about your other writeup. Your 5-warriors strategy was so wrong, I didn't even bother with the rest.
Are you ready for me to slam your newest made up claim that I've never played past level 10? LOL. When I made the second post, I really did assume you had posted the screenshot in good faith, but that whole "kid caught with his hands in the cookie jar attitude" made me reconsider. I think you just looked around and found a few WoW screenshots on the Web and posted them here. I retract myself, I don't think you ever played WoW.
You still haven't explained your "Potions heal health to 100%" and "Bandaids heals for 100%" You haven't explained why your warriors writeup breaks basic games mechanics rules.
With that being said, I think the problems is that gamers are by nature min-maxers. There's always a more efficient group makeup and people gravitates towards it. If a game developer were to make a game that compensated according to your group makeup and made the difficulty the same, no matter who was in the group, I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. The problem is that the programming and balancing nightmare that it would incurs pretty much ensures it will never be done.
to the op -- COx is probably what you're looking for. just make magic-based fantasy type heroes/villains, if you need the fantasy genre.
eve has no such things at all. of course, it does have cheating staff/devs.
i'm sure there's a few other games out there, but none as "pretty" as the above examples.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
i just have to ask... since all the GOOD stuff is in raids... how many raids of all hunters, all warriors, or all paladins, have you been part of, and how many have succeeded?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
If you like hack and slash play Diablo II or any other hack and slash RPG. Those games are geared towards the big dumb and stupid melees who think potion consumption is right under breathing in order of importance. Meanwhile most MMORPG people will thank heavens that some people actually enjoy end game healing and would rather not stand 1 inch away from the mob stabbing it with knives.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
i just have to ask... since all the GOOD stuff is in raids... how many raids of all hunters, all warriors, or all paladins, have you been part of, and how many have succeeded?
I would like to see a raid of all Paladins, actually. It would be interesting to see if any class could do that.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
If you like hack and slash play Diablo II or any other hack and slash RPG. Those games are geared towards the big dumb and stupid melees who think potion consumption is right under breathing in order of importance. Meanwhile most MMORPG people will thank heavens that some people actually enjoy end game healing and would rather not stand 1 inch away from the mob stabbing it with knives.
or... devs coulds top using lame raid dungeons/instances as cop outs and come out with REAL content instead of just more mind numbingly boring grind garbage.
i was chilling, kinda watching tv, kinda watching my friend go on a raid in wow.
they all went to the dungeon. half an hour later, they're all still sitting there. i asked who they were waiting for all this time. "no one, this is how you raid, you plan for 30-45 minutes, fight for 5 minutes, rinse repeat" he said.
sure enough, as i started watching movies, that is what they'd do. hang out for a literal 30-45 minutes, while their blowhard guild leader talked talked talked... how much talking is involved in killing a boss? a lot it seems, since doing 30 minutes of fighting takes 5-6 hours.
but that was fun? he said he was having fun. odd, i never saw him smile. i see him smile and hear him laugh when we play a game and go pvping. i'm pretty sure the smiling and laughing indicate he's having fun. his saying he's having fun while sitting there looking stonecold bored... i just don't see that being fun.
soooooooooo i said all that to say....
i find cox very repetitive, as much so as wow, if that's possible. no, i take that back. it's ALMOST as bad as wow. if i play (cox) and i see anyone saying they HAVE to have a healer/empath/healer class, i make a mental note to NEVER group with that moron.
why? because you can fight all sorts of big bads and not HAVE to have a healer. conversely, you have all sorts of powersets that have some sort of healing included. combined with lots of buffs and debuffs....
i think cox's devs give a total cop-out when it comes to high level content and should be beat mercilessly because of it. because of wow's stupidity, i completely despise strike/task forces.
but the whole point is... we're not children (well maybe some are, but a lot of us AREN'T), and some of us like having control over our toons like in pre-cu swg, eve, ultima online, games like that. if i want a completely (more or less cookie cutter) predefined toon with everything from stats to spells assigned to me; then i'll play some fps, or an rts.
bleh. noobs.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
If you like hack and slash play Diablo II or any other hack and slash RPG. Those games are geared towards the big dumb and stupid melees who think potion consumption is right under breathing in order of importance. Meanwhile most MMORPG people will thank heavens that some people actually enjoy end game healing and would rather not stand 1 inch away from the mob stabbing it with knives.
or... devs coulds top using lame raid dungeons/instances as cop outs and come out with REAL content instead of just more mind numbingly boring grind garbage.
i was chilling, kinda watching tv, kinda watching my friend go on a raid in wow.
they all went to the dungeon. half an hour later, they're all still sitting there. i asked who they were waiting for all this time. "no one, this is how you raid, you plan for 30-45 minutes, fight for 5 minutes, rinse repeat" he said.
sure enough, as i started watching movies, that is what they'd do. hang out for a literal 30-45 minutes, while their blowhard guild leader talked talked talked... how much talking is involved in killing a boss? a lot it seems, since doing 30 minutes of fighting takes 5-6 hours.
but that was fun? he said he was having fun. odd, i never saw him smile. i see him smile and hear him laugh when we play a game and go pvping. i'm pretty sure the smiling and laughing indicate he's having fun. his saying he's having fun while sitting there looking stonecold bored... i just don't see that being fun.
soooooooooo i said all that to say....
i find cox very repetitive, as much so as wow, if that's possible. no, i take that back. it's ALMOST as bad as wow. if i play (cox) and i see anyone saying they HAVE to have a healer/empath/healer class, i make a mental note to NEVER group with that moron.
why? because you can fight all sorts of big bads and not HAVE to have a healer. conversely, you have all sorts of powersets that have some sort of healing included. combined with lots of buffs and debuffs....
i think cox's devs give a total cop-out when it comes to high level content and should be beat mercilessly because of it. because of wow's stupidity, i completely despise strike/task forces.
but the whole point is... we're not children (well maybe some are, but a lot of us AREN'T), and some of us like having control over our toons like in pre-cu swg, eve, ultima online, games like that. if i want a completely (more or less cookie cutter) predefined toon with everything from stats to spells assigned to me; then i'll play some fps, or an rts.
bleh. noobs.
"pre-cu swg, eve, ultima online"
Looks like you have found what you're looking for already. Have fun.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
Really odd groups can sometimes do things you wouldn't consider them capable of. For example, I once ran Shadowfang keep with Voidwalkers as our maintank and offtank. We were a party of pure DPSers with one healer. It was a holy flaming bitch to take down Arugal at the end, but we eventually did it. In fact once we figured out our strategy we went back to get his robes for both the 'locks. I've also done astounding things in pure hunter parties, I'm sure there are other odd comboes that work well.
That said, it depends on the instance and it depends on the classes and specs you're talking about. If you are all willing to run out and respec every time you start a new five man, I would say it's perhaps possible to run any of the non-heroics with any five classes. However, you will not be able to do very many raids with a poorly balanced team, and I seriously doubt you will be able to do any of the heroic fives mans without a classic tank/ healer/ DPS at the core of your team.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
????????? Contradicting yourself again?
For some reason you keep skipping the part of my quotes where I said YOU first made up things based on no facts. One example is you saying I have never played WoW. Which you first made up, even though I posted various strats, AND I extended an offer to the OP to make a new character on whatever server he plays on, level up to his level, and show him how the strats work. You litterally do not get it. I leave it at that in replying to your now Trolling.
Read my post again, I don't care about your other writeup. Your 5-warriors strategy was so wrong, I didn't even bother with the rest.
Hey, I offered to make a new character on whatever server the OP plays on. IF my posted warrior strategey did not work, I would not make such an offer. As for you, I never made that post for you. It does not matter if you dislike it. You need not comment on it. It's not for you. Good of you to not have wasted your time "bothering with it."
When I made the second post, I really did assume you had posted the screenshot in good faith, but that whole "kid caught with his hands in the cookie jar attitude" made me reconsider. I think you just looked around and found a few WoW screenshots on the Web and posted them here. I retract myself, I don't think you ever played WoW.
The fact you would post something completly made up, saying I've never played WoW, based on absolutly nothing, shows YOU started posting in this thread posting NOT in good faith. The whole "omg, someone posted a strat I never thought of. That I've never tried to see if it works. He even offered to make a new character on the OP's server to guide him on how this strat I've never thought about, works??? How dare he think he knows more about WoW than I, Mr Uber Player, know!?! I'm soo angrey that he might have thought of something I never ever thought of!! I'll try to shoot him down by making things up about him aka by Trolling!".
If you really want to think I looked around the internet until I finally found a random pic of a player with the same name as my handle, then your own arguement applies to the pic you posted.... according to YOU, you looked around the internet until you found a random pic of a player with the same name as your handle then you posted it here.
You still haven't explained your "Potions heal health to 100%" and "Bandaids heals for 100%" You haven't explained why your warriors writeup breaks basic games mechanics rules.
I never wrote any of my original posts on page 2 for you. I wrote them for the OP. I also offered, not to you, but to the OP, to make a character on his server, and show him how the strat I posted works. I'll show him how to use first aid and potions, and how to chain stun a mob with a group of 5 "crazed axmen" aka Warriors. I don't mind spending time showing, and coaching in game, the OP, since he posted this thread in very good faith, with the attitude of being opened to learning more from seasoned gamers who have broken the mold that game DEVs try to force players into playing.
And more proof that YOU may have never played WoW, is your new made up charge that I'm promoting breaking game mechanic rules. None of the moves, and strategies I posted on page 2 of this thread are illegal, or against any of WoW's rules.
With that being said, I think the problems is that gamers are by nature min-maxers. There's always a more efficient group makeup and people gravitates towards it. If a game developer were to make a game that compensated according to your group makeup and made the difficulty the same, no matter who was in the group, I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. The problem is that the programming and balancing nightmare that it would incurs pretty much ensures it will never be done.
I agree the majority of present gamers take the path of least resistance. There are also many gamers, true gamers who litterally study a game as they play. Or they are soo experienced, that they have seen soo many formulas used in past games, that they can easily, near instantly, recignize what works, might work, and will work. They can play it out in their head, then make it work in game. This is where I come in and say, any true gamer can break the Tank/Healer/Damage Dealer mold... IF they want to. Since the OP used WoW, I also used WoW. Since the OP talked about if it could be done with a 5 man group, I kept it to a 5 man group. And yes, in WoW a 5 man group of all warriors can work aka break the mold. No need at all to wait for a game DEV to change the game.
One funny thing is, the "more efficient group" that the masses think works the best, at many times is not the best. A group of 5 Warriors in WoW has little need of a healer, can litterally make it without a healer. They actually can do better without one, since everyone in the group can take a bad beating, AND everyone in the group can instantly trade aggro all around. A group of all Rogues (fighting Humanoids heheh) are litterally near immortal since they all can use Vanish. No need at all for a Healer.
Quick small example of a true gamer thinking outside the box : - My friend was once in a group with his rogue. When they got up to the last boss in the instance, he told the group to let him tank first, NOT the traditional tank who was the Warrior. The group actually had 2 warriors. The group argued with him, telling him he was crazy and would die. He said no, he had the best chance out of everyone in the group of tanking, including better than the warriors. He said the Rogue is the best Tank in the entire game.
The traditional way would have had the Warrior go in first with everyone else joining the battle. When the boss was at half health the Warrior aka Tank would have also had lowered health, and the healer would also have lowered mana. This translates into the group being on worse footing, since the Warrior Tank and Healer are now suffering. Plus increased chances the Healer would be further near death since every time he heals, he gets full aggro.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
You attack me I attack you spam heal spam heal.
Woot! that's sounds sweet! Instead of things like skill, now its all about who has the most money for heal potions or who has the largest pool of whatever it takes to mitigate/heal damage. Instead of having a group saying you don't fulfill our needs because you're not the right class or because you don't have the right skills, it would change to we don't want you in our group because you don't have a large enough pool of whatever it takes to mitigate/heal.
Have to love shortsighted posters that think his idea is stupid. Go play Asheron's call and tell me it cannot be done. Never saw so many brainwashed posts on one thread. Can any of you step back and talk objectively about the subject?
You cannot do it in Wow because the designers don't want you to do it, not that they can't. Problem with class based systems, it puts everyone into rigid roles. Skill based systems are far more flexible. Trouble is all these stupid devs are stuck in remaking Wow these days. There is very little innovation. And no Wow did not offer anything that was innovative, it is strictly a regurgitated EQ with an accent on easy of play in a different setting.
Far as I am concerned if a game has classes it is already strictly an EQ copycat system and if you enjoy being pigeonholed into specific roles I suppose that is ok, but you are always stuck in the "looking for a healer", "looking for a tank" mode.
It is really a shame that turbine went off on an EQ binge with ACII, they really had a gem in AC that with some polish could have been far better than anything on the market.