I can honestly say I have only played WOW on a trial basis. I never saw what others see in the game besides some colorful back grounds/characters & perhaps a smooth interface(not to mention bots & gold farmers). It may be because I played EQ for years but Vanguard seems to have potentially, more of an appeal for me. I for one was impressed with the armor rewards for each race(which look differant) depending on what area you were fighting in or even a region can have a special look for your armor. Of course the mounts are nice as well,something to look forward as you level. I don't even own the game yet but after following the forums for sometime I look forward to the next month or so (after several more patches) before I start playing.
I am sorry, I just had to. Vanguard a next gen mmorpg ? You do realize that wow and vanguard are nearly the same ?
I normally don't respond to this ignorant obvious troll attempts but I'd just like to say that if you can't come up with better than this you need to stick with your day job.
Actually he is correct, and it has more in common with games like WoW, than the real advanced old games, like Anarchy online, EVE and others aimed at a real mature audience. It has the same "One class-One skill" character build, the same quests and the same limited choices for the players to maximise the efficiency of the characters outside of player control.
Not that you will ever believe that, what you play MUST be the most advanced evah. But that is where you and reality part and who am I to bring you two together again.
Even if I do like VG and have previously defended against some of your responses you are correct in this. I would love a new MMO with some REAL choices in it, with the ability to actually gimp your character! Like Anarchy online or DAoC. I still like VG, but as you say those games are in fact more advanced. Sad to say the trend is to dumb down MMOs
Oh, well then that wasn't intended for you. It was more or less for the people who purchase this game and then complain that it sucks meanwhile there are free trials for it if you want to test it. Along with that if a company announced that they are releasing an unpolished game because of funding, and then you buy it and complain that it is incomplete/not polished... who's fault is that really? You on the other hand did the smart move like other people should have done, and you are right, I realistically think this game needs 8 honest months of work before it is where it should be.
I was just looking at the box...and for the likes of me, I can't find:
"WARNING! This product is incomplete and unfinished!"
I did see the 50$ price tag though.
i don't often agree with you, gameloading. but you are correct, sir. i was looking at the game at the store the other day, with the intention of seeing if there was a warning that the game was still in beta, or had been pushed out early, etc.
nope, not one mention on the box about anything other than "new game, try now".
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Well, you tell me what game would put that on their boxes, only to have to redo the boxes down the road just to take that off? The devs announced it and it was all over the web. Now you are just knit picking.
truth in advertising? you can guarantee me everyone who has bought this game knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that it was being released in beta condition (beta condition being pretty much what the devs stated themselves)?
every parent that bought this game for their kids knew this? right? everyone that just kinda noticed a new online game, and were bored with the current crop, etc... EVERYONE knew?
prove it.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Well, you tell me what game would put that on their boxes, only to have to redo the boxes down the road just to take that off? The devs announced it and it was all over the web. Now you are just knit picking.
truth in advertising? you can guarantee me everyone who has bought this game knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that it was being released in beta condition (beta condition being pretty much what the devs stated themselves)?
every parent that bought this game for their kids knew this? right? everyone that just kinda noticed a new online game, and were bored with the current crop, etc... EVERYONE knew?
prove it.
No, nor did I claim that EVERYONE knew this. I stated that pay to play MMOs are an invenstment and you should do your research before you buy it. That is the case of a parent just spoiling their child by purchasing them an MMORPG without reading anything about it. Truth in advertising? Where on the box did it say it was a complete or polished game? They promised a unique experience and with the bugs in the game I think they delivered on their word lol.
For the people who just "noticed a new online game and was tired of the current crop", they have access to the internet and they played another MMO. They can do research seeing as they had time to play another MMO. Anybody posting on these boards who has enough time to make posts like yours had the time to research it. Get over it and move on, it does not help you in any way to dwell on a game that you do not enjoy. Remember, it is just a game, and if you do not enjoy it, nobody is asking you to play and you would have better spent your time looking at new games rather than one you will not play anymore.
Well, you tell me what game would put that on their boxes, only to have to redo the boxes down the road just to take that off? The devs announced it and it was all over the web. Now you are just knit picking.
truth in advertising? you can guarantee me everyone who has bought this game knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that it was being released in beta condition (beta condition being pretty much what the devs stated themselves)?
every parent that bought this game for their kids knew this? right? everyone that just kinda noticed a new online game, and were bored with the current crop, etc... EVERYONE knew?
prove it.
I can tell you that I beta tested VG from beta3 all the way to release and i was suprised at the condition of the game when release started. Here is why.
The last month or so of beta saw incredible improvements. At that time the beta community was lead to beleve that the patches would be coming as frequently. They did not. As soon as release happened they slowed way down. ( not that it was unexpected ) however, i had faith because of the amount of improvments that were made toward the end of beta.
There is also another thing that happened. Although there were alot of improvements made toward the end of beta, there were many that slipped off the radar and dropped from the old "top ten issues we are working on". This list was great, it had the key problems most of the beta community had problems with, some i recall were grouping issues ( losing connection and such ), mob warping. Now what happened was, they dropped off the list and were never fixed. Going into release they were not fixed, nor were they fixed at release+ 1 month.
So i was a bit suprised myself even as a beta tester, at what condition the game was in at release and shortly after release.
From now on, all PC games will have a sticker covering the full front of the box.
"Hey, numbnuts, this is a PC game, not a console game. Expect some driver issues. And bugs. You may have to tweak the settings because your personal hardware configuration doesn't play nice with the games code. 100% chance of patches. Want a perfect out of the box experience? Buy a f**king Xbox. M$ wins either way.".
I can honestly say I have only played WOW on a trial basis. I never saw what others see in the game besides some colorful back grounds/characters & perhaps a smooth interface(not to mention bots & gold farmers). It may be because I played EQ for years but Vanguard seems to have potentially, more of an appeal for me. I for one was impressed with the armor rewards for each race(which look differant) depending on what area you were fighting in or even a region can have a special look for your armor. Of course the mounts are nice as well,something to look forward as you level.
I don't even own the game yet but after following the forums for sometime I look forward to the next month or so (after several more patches) before I start playing.
Damn how many of you Vanbois are gonna create new accounts just to bag wow , Nice one Troll... you could have at least got of the 1 post setting & posted a few others first Funny how people wait in the wings just to attack me for making a few comments. If I was a troll I would have insulted someone or incited someone directly(like you just did). I never saw the appeal in Wow -partly because it didn't seem that immersive. The game seems adequate but it didn't deliver the experience I hoped it would. Does this fact mean i am trying to sway others to stay away from Wow? If that was the case then why am I not in the WoW forums spamming every thread?
As far as being a "vanboi"-I may have high expectations for the coming months, if they cant get SoH together by then I'll have to admit its not the game I thought it would be.
I can honestly say I have only played WOW on a trial basis. I never saw what others see in the game besides some colorful back grounds/characters & perhaps a smooth interface(not to mention bots & gold farmers). It may be because I played EQ for years but Vanguard seems to have potentially, more of an appeal for me. I for one was impressed with the armor rewards for each race(which look differant) depending on what area you were fighting in or even a region can have a special look for your armor. Of course the mounts are nice as well,something to look forward as you level.
I don't even own the game yet but after following the forums for sometime I look forward to the next month or so (after several more patches) before I start playing.
Damn how many of you Vanbois are gonna create new accounts just to bag wow , Nice one Troll... you could have at least got of the 1 post setting & posted a few others firstFunny how people wait in the wings just to attack me for making a few comments. If I was a troll I would have insulted someone or incited someone directly(like you just did). I never saw the appeal in Wow -partly because it didn't seem that immersive. The game seems adequate but it didn't deliver the experience I hoped it would. Does this fact mean i am trying to sway others to stay away from Wow? If that was the case then why am I not in the WoW forums spamming every thread?
As far as being a "vanboi"-I may have high expectations for the coming months, if they cant get SoH together by then I'll have to admit its not the game I thought it would be.
{ Mod Edit } It's just got more game than the other MMORPG's. I couldn't go back to WoW now, I just couldn't.
I can honestly say I have only played WOW on a trial basis. I never saw what others see in the game besides some colorful back grounds/characters & perhaps a smooth interface(not to mention bots & gold farmers). It may be because I played EQ for years but Vanguard seems to have potentially, more of an appeal for me. I for one was impressed with the armor rewards for each race(which look differant) depending on what area you were fighting in or even a region can have a special look for your armor. Of course the mounts are nice as well,something to look forward as you level.
I don't even own the game yet but after following the forums for sometime I look forward to the next month or so (after several more patches) before I start playing.
Damn how many of you Vanbois are gonna create new accounts just to bag wow , Nice one Troll... you could have at least got of the 1 post setting & posted a few others first LOL! God forbid that a person who is considering buying and/or interested in Vanguard post in the Vanguard forum! Jeez, the nerve of some people! I guess his post would have been more appropriate in the WoW forums?
From now on, all PC games will have a sticker covering the full front of the box. "Hey, numbnuts, this is a PC game, not a console game. Expect some driver issues. And bugs. You may have to tweak the settings because your personal hardware configuration doesn't play nice with the games code. 100% chance of patches. Want a perfect out of the box experience? Buy a f**king Xbox. M$ wins either way.". Then no one can say they weren't warned.
Somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing this on SOE distributed games any time soon.....
From now on, all PC games will have a sticker covering the full front of the box. "Hey, numbnuts, this is a PC game, not a console game. Expect some driver issues. And bugs. You may have to tweak the settings because your personal hardware configuration doesn't play nice with the games code. 100% chance of patches. Want a perfect out of the box experience? Buy a f**king Xbox. M$ wins either way.". Then no one can say they weren't warned.
Somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing this on SOE distributed games any time soon..... You gotta admit though, that if a gaming company had the brass ones to put a message like that on it's box - you'd probably buy it just because.
Oh, well then that wasn't intended for you. It was more or less for the people who purchase this game and then complain that it sucks meanwhile there are free trials for it if you want to test it. Along with that if a company announced that they are releasing an unpolished game because of funding, and then you buy it and complain that it is incomplete/not polished... who's fault is that really? You on the other hand did the smart move like other people should have done, and you are right, I realistically think this game needs 8 honest months of work before it is where it should be.
There's one fatal flaw in your logic. Not everybody does research on games before they buy them. For some, like myself, Vanguard was an impulse buy at the local Gamestop in my area. There were no trials or buddy keys to be had. Nowhere on the box did it say anything about running out of money or that the game would be in an unpolished state. So who's fault is it? Some people blame SOE but SOE actually bailed Sigil out and saved this game. Some such as yourself blame fellow consumers but I think the blame lies totally with Sigil for not putting out a good product. When you have several years and millions of dollars and this is the best you can come out with there's a huge problem. Using the excuse that you ran out of time and money is just that an excuse. Funny thing is they don't mind telling you that and still charging full price for the game and monthly subscription.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Oh, well then that wasn't intended for you. It was more or less for the people who purchase this game and then complain that it sucks meanwhile there are free trials for it if you want to test it. Along with that if a company announced that they are releasing an unpolished game because of funding, and then you buy it and complain that it is incomplete/not polished... who's fault is that really? You on the other hand did the smart move like other people should have done, and you are right, I realistically think this game needs 8 honest months of work before it is where it should be.
There's one fatal flaw in your logic. Not everybody does research on games before they buy them. For some, like myself, Vanguard was an impulse buy at the local Gamestop in my area. There were no trials or buddy keys to be had. Nowhere on the box did it say anything about running out of money or that the game would be in an unpolished state. So who's fault is it? Some people blame SOE but SOE actually bailed Sigil out and saved this game. Some such as yourself blame fellow consumers but I think the blame lies totally with Sigil for not putting out a good product. When you have several years and millions of dollars and this is the best you can come out with there's a huge problem. Using the excuse that you ran out of time and money is just that an excuse. Funny thing is they don't mind telling you that and still charging full price for the game and monthly subscription.
The flaw in your logic is that it was an impulse buy just from being at a gamestop. When it comes to an MMO you should do some research on it before you go out if you know you are headed to a game store, looking to buy a game. It is up to the consumers to not do this, because everytime somebody buys it without doing research other games down the road will do the same thing and then think it is okay because we let it slide with Vanguard. I read about it about two days before it came out and just 20 minutes on google took me to a site that had quotes from the devs which told me the product was being released in a beta state. This alone made me not purchase it right off the bat. I buy it now because during my trial I hit level 18 and I decided to stick with it. I will only be playing this game until beta starts for Age of Conan but that does not matter. The matter of the fact is, that sigil nor SOE is to be blamed until we as consumers admit we were wrong in purchasing the game in its beta state. MMOs are an investment so it is up to you to research it before hand. Go wouldn't just go out one day and look at a house and go I am going to buy that one. You would research it before you made a decision.
From now on, all PC games will have a sticker covering the full front of the box. "Hey, numbnuts, this is a PC game, not a console game. Expect some driver issues. And bugs. You may have to tweak the settings because your personal hardware configuration doesn't play nice with the games code. 100% chance of patches. Want a perfect out of the box experience? Buy a f**king Xbox. M$ wins either way.". Then no one can say they weren't warned.
Somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing this on SOE distributed games any time soon..... You gotta admit though, that if a gaming company had the brass ones to put a message like that on it's box - you'd probably buy it just because. Heck, I think the ESRB should make it required for all PC games. Maybe then I'd regain my respect for them.
Oh, well then that wasn't intended for you. It was more or less for the people who purchase this game and then complain that it sucks meanwhile there are free trials for it if you want to test it. Along with that if a company announced that they are releasing an unpolished game because of funding, and then you buy it and complain that it is incomplete/not polished... who's fault is that really? You on the other hand did the smart move like other people should have done, and you are right, I realistically think this game needs 8 honest months of work before it is where it should be.
There's one fatal flaw in your logic. Not everybody does research on games before they buy them. For some, like myself, Vanguard was an impulse buy at the local Gamestop in my area. There were no trials or buddy keys to be had. Nowhere on the box did it say anything about running out of money or that the game would be in an unpolished state. So who's fault is it? Some people blame SOE but SOE actually bailed Sigil out and saved this game. Some such as yourself blame fellow consumers but I think the blame lies totally with Sigil for not putting out a good product. When you have several years and millions of dollars and this is the best you can come out with there's a huge problem. Using the excuse that you ran out of time and money is just that an excuse. Funny thing is they don't mind telling you that and still charging full price for the game and monthly subscription.
The flaw in your logic is that it was an impulse buy just from being at a gamestop. When it comes to an MMO you should do some research on it before you go out if you know you are headed to a game store, looking to buy a game. It is up to the consumers to not do this, because everytime somebody buys it without doing research other games down the road will do the same thing and then think it is okay because we let it slide with Vanguard. I read about it about two days before it came out and just 20 minutes on google took me to a site that had quotes from the devs which told me the product was being released in a beta state. This alone made me not purchase it right off the bat. I buy it now because during my trial I hit level 18 and I decided to stick with it. I will only be playing this game until beta starts for Age of Conan but that does not matter. The matter of the fact is, that sigil nor SOE is to be blamed until we as consumers admit we were wrong in purchasing the game in its beta state. MMOs are an investment so it is up to you to research it before hand. Go wouldn't just go out one day and look at a house and go I am going to buy that one. You would research it before you made a decision.
What I don't understand is why this game is in Best Buy, Walmart, Target, and other mass market retail merchandisers. Sigil stated it was designed for the "Core" gamer (not sure if that is short for "Hardcore", that still seems to be being debated). This is unlike EVE, which distributes via MMORPG web sites, word of mouth. EVE doesn't get the mass market casual gamer, they really do target people that are committed to, and like the game. We like to joke about EVE fanbois, but they are a "Core" group.
So, Vanguard, a game designed for the "Core" gamer is mass marketed to "noncore" gamers, who complain about the game, and cancel their subscriptons. Sigil gets upset, and starts "dumbing down" the game. The "Core" gamers gets upset and complain. But guess what, Vanguard is off and running chasing the WOW dream. Anyone else see where the disconnect between the "Vision" and the mass marketing campaign can go?
Sigil needs to produce the money. It's that simple. I don't think they seek WoW type numbers , but they need 200k or so in subs to claim success. Over $30 million was spent in development....Hollywood type bugets need Hollywood type results.
The money is in the casual gamers market. Your workin stiff....20-40 ish community that only gets 10-20 hrs a week to play. They got the jobs...got the money...and due to the lack of time able to play....play ALOT longer....many casual gamers will pay for a sub for years ...not just months..like many hardcore gamers do. They need those people for long time success. This will water down the gameplay....just like commercial success has watered down our movie experiences ( yall notice how most movies suck now?) and practicaly everything else in life. Like it or not...money makes the world go around. In the long run...its a good thing...those commercial success stories in the mmo industry will bring more people to the online gaming world and eventualy opening doors for niche market games to be successful. As the price of hardware and development come down....combined with a large increase in potential customer base...will result ..eventualy..in more innovative mmorgp games being produced..specificaly in niche markets. We just aren't there yet...thats 5-10 yrs away.
Sigil needs to produce the money. It's that simple. I don't think they seek WoW type numbers , but they need 200k or so in subs to claim success. Over $30 million was spent in development....Hollywood type bugets need Hollywood type results. The money is in the casual gamers market. Your workin stiff....20-40 ish community that only gets 10-20 hrs a week to play. They got the jobs...got the money...and due to the lack of time able to play....play ALOT longer....many casual gamers will pay for a sub for years ...not just months..like many hardcore gamers do. They need those people for long time success. This will water down the gameplay....just like commercial success has watered down our movie experiences ( yall notice how most movies suck now?) and practicaly everything else in life. Like it or not...money makes the world go around. In the long run...its a good thing...those commercial success stories in the mmo industry will bring more people to the online gaming world and eventualy opening doors for niche market games to be successful. As the price of hardware and development come down....combined with a large increase in potential customer base...will result ..eventualy..in more innovative mmorgp games being produced..specificaly in niche markets. We just aren't there yet...thats 5-10 yrs away.
So, your argument is that they are fleecing the working stiff by promising them a game which Sigil will never deliver? Or that they are fleecing the "Core" gamer by offering them expectations that Sigil will never deliver? Sigil cannot be "successful" by following the business model of EVE?
The problem is Sigil does NOT need to produce the money. They think they do, but once again they missed the boat. Money is available in the venture capital market. Sigil should have a Chief Financial Officer (CFO) that is tuned into more sources of money than the local bank, which demands safe, secure loans. Venture Capital funds are, by definition, start up money for new (risky) business ventures. If the business works, the return on investment more than makes up for the bad investments. What Sigil did was panic. When they ran out of funding they ran back to SOE as their safe haven. I know for a fact they never appraoched my fund for an additional $12 to $15 million, and I have not heard through the industry grapevine that they appraoched ANY fund for additional money.
$12 to $15 million was do able, then. Of course, after reviewing their product, there would have been strings attached. I didn't purchase Vanguard to have a good time, and I didn't play on my free time. My critiques you have taken exception to so much are the observations I made, and Sigil would have been advised to make adjustments. The large world, for a small subsciption game, with a poor "lfg" tool, with inadequate travel mechanism to join friends, spread out over too many starting points, with too many servers, coupled with a begining game that is too long and boring for veteran players coming off the level 50 content to start all over again (that last observation is Richard Garriott's), are just a few observations of the problems with the game. But frankly, all of these problems lead right back to dysfunctional management at Sigil. And frankly, the first thing any fund would do now is come in and replace the management team. Some key employees would get a six-twelve month consulting agrement to aid the transition, the rest would be shown the door.
Smedley is doing a fine job of limiting SOEs investment and recovering a tidy profit on this one. Sigil/Vanguard have been "thrown under the bus" as the response to that "upcoming" WOW expansion. EQ 2 right now is attracting former WOW players that tired of no new end game content. With that expansion Smedley risked losing subscriptions back to WOW, as well as to an independant Vanguard. With Sigil giving him Vanguard he saw a way to offset his EQ 2 loses, increase his Station Pass attraction, and earn server and distribution money without the cost of developing a new game. It was a win-win for SOE, who, to maximize profits took Vanguard, a niche game, into the mainstream market.
Oh yea, SOE has no control over Vanguard. Everything that has happened to Vanguard since leaving Microsoft didn't have to be if the Vanguard management team was doing it's job. The problem is, in dealing with SOE they are guppies swimming with the sharks. In case you haven't noticed SOE is the one driving the game mainstream, to be changed into the image of a mass market game, which is the very thing you have stated time after time you don't want to see. Somehow, I don't think this was McQuade's "Vision" for the game.
So, as a fanboi do you now admit that the "Vision" is gone, and it's a race for the mass market profit appeal?
I am perfectly aware of Sigil's needs. However, I would have believed in your sincerity if you were equally sensitive about the needs of the gaming community as well.
What the gaming community needs is polished, innovative, creative, intuitive, intelligent and working games with truthful advertising.
Past is the era of childhood! We have been awakened and we have grown up. Gaming scene has been evolving in leaps and bounds. There are new limits every year in technology, hardware capabilities, gaming concepts and software tools. Past is the era of cow milking on visions, unfulfilled promises and hypes!
Now we know better and we expect better. And we don't care about the needs of the gaming companies that refuse to adapt.
CONTRIBUTE INTO THE GAMING INDUSTRY! STOP PAYING FOR BORING COPYCATS, UNFINISHED BUGFESTS AND CRANKY JUNKWARE. BE A RESPONSIBLE GAMER!
Well, you tell me what game would put that on their boxes, only to have to redo the boxes down the road just to take that off? The devs announced it and it was all over the web. Now you are just knit picking.
truth in advertising? you can guarantee me everyone who has bought this game knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that it was being released in beta condition (beta condition being pretty much what the devs stated themselves)?
every parent that bought this game for their kids knew this? right? everyone that just kinda noticed a new online game, and were bored with the current crop, etc... EVERYONE knew?
prove it.
No, nor did I claim that EVERYONE knew this. I stated that pay to play MMOs are an invenstment and you should do your research before you buy it. That is the case of a parent just spoiling their child by purchasing them an MMORPG without reading anything about it. Truth in advertising? Where on the box did it say it was a complete or polished game? They promised a unique experience and with the bugs in the game I think they delivered on their word lol.
For the people who just "noticed a new online game and was tired of the current crop", they have access to the internet and they played another MMO. They can do research seeing as they had time to play another MMO. Anybody posting on these boards who has enough time to make posts like yours had the time to research it. Get over it and move on, it does not help you in any way to dwell on a game that you do not enjoy. Remember, it is just a game, and if you do not enjoy it, nobody is asking you to play and you would have better spent your time looking at new games rather than one you will not play anymore.
i quoted EXACTLY what you said. you're the one nit-picking on minutia. if i go to a store, i shouldn't have to research a GAME on the INTERNET, in order to have faith that the game is COMPLETE. i should be able to look at the box, read about the game ON THE BOX I'M PURCHASING, and based upon what i read, make my decision.
why in god's name would a box have to say the game is complete? what sort of fanboy mentality is that? nice follow up with the "lol". yes, a unique experience; so if you go stick your hand in a huge blender, turn it on, chop your hand to pieces, you too can have a unique experience.
no, i want an answer as to WHY a game has to say, on it's box, "this game is complete".
don't reply with anything else until you've given an logical, sensible reply to WHY a game has to say on it's box, "this game is complete" in order for ME to have faith that the game is complete.
you either have no idea what you're talking about, or you're some sick fanboy wannabe without any argument to actually back up your silliness.
read what you posted above, several times, very slowly. then go to a corner and pray for enlightenment. you may have to stay there a few weeks, but the fasting will do you good. once you have obtained enlightenment, on how many different levels this thinking is wrong; then come back and share it with us.
the only research you should HAVE to do, is reading what is on the box.
maybe you should get over your ill-thought-out argument? o, or i know... how about next time you go purchase anything it is that you want, it's broken. broken and you can't get it fixed until you send it in to the manufacturer to get it fixed. the manufacturer will take 3-15 months to fix it. who knows how long. plus, you don't know it's broken until you open it. and once you've opened it, you're stuck with it, you can NOT return it and no one else wants to buy it, because well, it's broken. and that needs to happen every time you (or your mum) purchases something for your use. unless, of course, you research it on the internet first and find out which brand names of that product aren't broken.
that makes as much sense as what you've stated.
actually, it makes more, because you can get your mum to help you.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Comments
I can honestly say I have only played WOW on a trial basis. I never saw what others see in the game besides some colorful back grounds/characters & perhaps a smooth interface(not to mention bots & gold farmers). It may be because I played EQ for years but Vanguard seems to have potentially, more of an appeal for me. I for one was impressed with the armor rewards for each race(which look differant) depending on what area you were fighting in or even a region can have a special look for your armor. Of course the mounts are nice as well,something to look forward as you level.
I don't even own the game yet but after following the forums for sometime I look forward to the next month or so (after several more patches) before I start playing.
I normally don't respond to this ignorant obvious troll attempts but I'd just like to say that if you can't come up with better than this you need to stick with your day job.
Actually he is correct, and it has more in common with games like WoW, than the real advanced old games, like Anarchy online, EVE and others aimed at a real mature audience. It has the same "One class-One skill" character build, the same quests and the same limited choices for the players to maximise the efficiency of the characters outside of player control.
Not that you will ever believe that, what you play MUST be the most advanced evah. But that is where you and reality part and who am I to bring you two together again.
Even if I do like VG and have previously defended against some of your responses you are correct in this. I would love a new MMO with some REAL choices in it, with the ability to actually gimp your character! Like Anarchy online or DAoC. I still like VG, but as you say those games are in fact more advanced. Sad to say the trend is to dumb down MMOs
"WARNING! This product is incomplete and unfinished!"
I did see the 50$ price tag though.
i don't often agree with you, gameloading. but you are correct, sir. i was looking at the game at the store the other day, with the intention of seeing if there was a warning that the game was still in beta, or had been pushed out early, etc.
nope, not one mention on the box about anything other than "new game, try now".
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Well, you tell me what game would put that on their boxes, only to have to redo the boxes down the road just to take that off?
The devs announced it and it was all over the web. Now you are just knit picking.
truth in advertising? you can guarantee me everyone who has bought this game knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that it was being released in beta condition (beta condition being pretty much what the devs stated themselves)?
every parent that bought this game for their kids knew this? right? everyone that just kinda noticed a new online game, and were bored with the current crop, etc... EVERYONE knew?
prove it.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
truth in advertising? you can guarantee me everyone who has bought this game knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that it was being released in beta condition (beta condition being pretty much what the devs stated themselves)?
every parent that bought this game for their kids knew this? right? everyone that just kinda noticed a new online game, and were bored with the current crop, etc... EVERYONE knew?
prove it.
No, nor did I claim that EVERYONE knew this. I stated that pay to play MMOs are an invenstment and you should do your research before you buy it. That is the case of a parent just spoiling their child by purchasing them an MMORPG without reading anything about it. Truth in advertising? Where on the box did it say it was a complete or polished game? They promised a unique experience and with the bugs in the game I think they delivered on their word lol.
For the people who just "noticed a new online game and was tired of the current crop", they have access to the internet and they played another MMO. They can do research seeing as they had time to play another MMO. Anybody posting on these boards who has enough time to make posts like yours had the time to research it. Get over it and move on, it does not help you in any way to dwell on a game that you do not enjoy. Remember, it is just a game, and if you do not enjoy it, nobody is asking you to play and you would have better spent your time looking at new games rather than one you will not play anymore.
truth in advertising? you can guarantee me everyone who has bought this game knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that it was being released in beta condition (beta condition being pretty much what the devs stated themselves)?
every parent that bought this game for their kids knew this? right? everyone that just kinda noticed a new online game, and were bored with the current crop, etc... EVERYONE knew?
prove it.
I can tell you that I beta tested VG from beta3 all the way to release and i was suprised at the condition of the game when release started. Here is why.
The last month or so of beta saw incredible improvements. At that time the beta community was lead to beleve that the patches would be coming as frequently. They did not. As soon as release happened they slowed way down. ( not that it was unexpected ) however, i had faith because of the amount of improvments that were made toward the end of beta.
There is also another thing that happened. Although there were alot of improvements made toward the end of beta, there were many that slipped off the radar and dropped from the old "top ten issues we are working on". This list was great, it had the key problems most of the beta community had problems with, some i recall were grouping issues ( losing connection and such ), mob warping. Now what happened was, they dropped off the list and were never fixed. Going into release they were not fixed, nor were they fixed at release+ 1 month.
So i was a bit suprised myself even as a beta tester, at what condition the game was in at release and shortly after release.
-Allegria
From now on, all PC games will have a sticker covering the full front of the box.
"Hey, numbnuts, this is a PC game, not a console game. Expect some driver issues. And bugs. You may have to tweak the settings because your personal hardware configuration doesn't play nice with the games code. 100% chance of patches. Want a perfect out of the box experience? Buy a f**king Xbox. M$ wins either way.".
Then no one can say they weren't warned.
As far as being a "vanboi"-I may have high expectations for the coming months, if they cant get SoH together by then I'll have to admit its not the game I thought it would be.
As far as being a "vanboi"-I may have high expectations for the coming months, if they cant get SoH together by then I'll have to admit its not the game I thought it would be.
{ Mod Edit } It's just got more game than the other MMORPG's. I couldn't go back to WoW now, I just couldn't.
I'm not crashing to the desktop anymore, so Sigil must be doing something right.
HUZZAH!
There's one fatal flaw in your logic. Not everybody does research on games before they buy them. For some, like myself, Vanguard was an impulse buy at the local Gamestop in my area. There were no trials or buddy keys to be had. Nowhere on the box did it say anything about running out of money or that the game would be in an unpolished state. So who's fault is it? Some people blame SOE but SOE actually bailed Sigil out and saved this game. Some such as yourself blame fellow consumers but I think the blame lies totally with Sigil for not putting out a good product. When you have several years and millions of dollars and this is the best you can come out with there's a huge problem. Using the excuse that you ran out of time and money is just that an excuse. Funny thing is they don't mind telling you that and still charging full price for the game and monthly subscription.
I mean its not like it could get any worse......
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
There's one fatal flaw in your logic. Not everybody does research on games before they buy them. For some, like myself, Vanguard was an impulse buy at the local Gamestop in my area. There were no trials or buddy keys to be had. Nowhere on the box did it say anything about running out of money or that the game would be in an unpolished state. So who's fault is it? Some people blame SOE but SOE actually bailed Sigil out and saved this game. Some such as yourself blame fellow consumers but I think the blame lies totally with Sigil for not putting out a good product. When you have several years and millions of dollars and this is the best you can come out with there's a huge problem. Using the excuse that you ran out of time and money is just that an excuse. Funny thing is they don't mind telling you that and still charging full price for the game and monthly subscription.
The flaw in your logic is that it was an impulse buy just from being at a gamestop. When it comes to an MMO you should do some research on it before you go out if you know you are headed to a game store, looking to buy a game. It is up to the consumers to not do this, because everytime somebody buys it without doing research other games down the road will do the same thing and then think it is okay because we let it slide with Vanguard. I read about it about two days before it came out and just 20 minutes on google took me to a site that had quotes from the devs which told me the product was being released in a beta state. This alone made me not purchase it right off the bat. I buy it now because during my trial I hit level 18 and I decided to stick with it. I will only be playing this game until beta starts for Age of Conan but that does not matter. The matter of the fact is, that sigil nor SOE is to be blamed until we as consumers admit we were wrong in purchasing the game in its beta state. MMOs are an investment so it is up to you to research it before hand. Go wouldn't just go out one day and look at a house and go I am going to buy that one. You would research it before you made a decision.
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Life sucks, buy a helmet.
There's one fatal flaw in your logic. Not everybody does research on games before they buy them. For some, like myself, Vanguard was an impulse buy at the local Gamestop in my area. There were no trials or buddy keys to be had. Nowhere on the box did it say anything about running out of money or that the game would be in an unpolished state. So who's fault is it? Some people blame SOE but SOE actually bailed Sigil out and saved this game. Some such as yourself blame fellow consumers but I think the blame lies totally with Sigil for not putting out a good product. When you have several years and millions of dollars and this is the best you can come out with there's a huge problem. Using the excuse that you ran out of time and money is just that an excuse. Funny thing is they don't mind telling you that and still charging full price for the game and monthly subscription.
The flaw in your logic is that it was an impulse buy just from being at a gamestop. When it comes to an MMO you should do some research on it before you go out if you know you are headed to a game store, looking to buy a game. It is up to the consumers to not do this, because everytime somebody buys it without doing research other games down the road will do the same thing and then think it is okay because we let it slide with Vanguard. I read about it about two days before it came out and just 20 minutes on google took me to a site that had quotes from the devs which told me the product was being released in a beta state. This alone made me not purchase it right off the bat. I buy it now because during my trial I hit level 18 and I decided to stick with it. I will only be playing this game until beta starts for Age of Conan but that does not matter. The matter of the fact is, that sigil nor SOE is to be blamed until we as consumers admit we were wrong in purchasing the game in its beta state. MMOs are an investment so it is up to you to research it before hand. Go wouldn't just go out one day and look at a house and go I am going to buy that one. You would research it before you made a decision.
What I don't understand is why this game is in Best Buy, Walmart, Target, and other mass market retail merchandisers. Sigil stated it was designed for the "Core" gamer (not sure if that is short for "Hardcore", that still seems to be being debated). This is unlike EVE, which distributes via MMORPG web sites, word of mouth. EVE doesn't get the mass market casual gamer, they really do target people that are committed to, and like the game. We like to joke about EVE fanbois, but they are a "Core" group.
So, Vanguard, a game designed for the "Core" gamer is mass marketed to "noncore" gamers, who complain about the game, and cancel their subscriptons. Sigil gets upset, and starts "dumbing down" the game. The "Core" gamers gets upset and complain. But guess what, Vanguard is off and running chasing the WOW dream. Anyone else see where the disconnect between the "Vision" and the mass marketing campaign can go?
Sigil needs to produce the money. It's that simple. I don't think they seek WoW type numbers , but they need 200k or so in subs to claim success. Over $30 million was spent in development....Hollywood type bugets need Hollywood type results.
The money is in the casual gamers market. Your workin stiff....20-40 ish community that only gets 10-20 hrs a week to play. They got the jobs...got the money...and due to the lack of time able to play....play ALOT longer....many casual gamers will pay for a sub for years ...not just months..like many hardcore gamers do. They need those people for long time success. This will water down the gameplay....just like commercial success has watered down our movie experiences ( yall notice how most movies suck now?) and practicaly everything else in life. Like it or not...money makes the world go around. In the long run...its a good thing...those commercial success stories in the mmo industry will bring more people to the online gaming world and eventualy opening doors for niche market games to be successful. As the price of hardware and development come down....combined with a large increase in potential customer base...will result ..eventualy..in more innovative mmorgp games being produced..specificaly in niche markets. We just aren't there yet...thats 5-10 yrs away.
So, your argument is that they are fleecing the working stiff by promising them a game which Sigil will never deliver? Or that they are fleecing the "Core" gamer by offering them expectations that Sigil will never deliver? Sigil cannot be "successful" by following the business model of EVE?
The problem is Sigil does NOT need to produce the money. They think they do, but once again they missed the boat. Money is available in the venture capital market. Sigil should have a Chief Financial Officer (CFO) that is tuned into more sources of money than the local bank, which demands safe, secure loans. Venture Capital funds are, by definition, start up money for new (risky) business ventures. If the business works, the return on investment more than makes up for the bad investments. What Sigil did was panic. When they ran out of funding they ran back to SOE as their safe haven. I know for a fact they never appraoched my fund for an additional $12 to $15 million, and I have not heard through the industry grapevine that they appraoched ANY fund for additional money.
$12 to $15 million was do able, then. Of course, after reviewing their product, there would have been strings attached. I didn't purchase Vanguard to have a good time, and I didn't play on my free time. My critiques you have taken exception to so much are the observations I made, and Sigil would have been advised to make adjustments. The large world, for a small subsciption game, with a poor "lfg" tool, with inadequate travel mechanism to join friends, spread out over too many starting points, with too many servers, coupled with a begining game that is too long and boring for veteran players coming off the level 50 content to start all over again (that last observation is Richard Garriott's), are just a few observations of the problems with the game. But frankly, all of these problems lead right back to dysfunctional management at Sigil. And frankly, the first thing any fund would do now is come in and replace the management team. Some key employees would get a six-twelve month consulting agrement to aid the transition, the rest would be shown the door.
Smedley is doing a fine job of limiting SOEs investment and recovering a tidy profit on this one. Sigil/Vanguard have been "thrown under the bus" as the response to that "upcoming" WOW expansion. EQ 2 right now is attracting former WOW players that tired of no new end game content. With that expansion Smedley risked losing subscriptions back to WOW, as well as to an independant Vanguard. With Sigil giving him Vanguard he saw a way to offset his EQ 2 loses, increase his Station Pass attraction, and earn server and distribution money without the cost of developing a new game. It was a win-win for SOE, who, to maximize profits took Vanguard, a niche game, into the mainstream market.
Oh yea, SOE has no control over Vanguard. Everything that has happened to Vanguard since leaving Microsoft didn't have to be if the Vanguard management team was doing it's job. The problem is, in dealing with SOE they are guppies swimming with the sharks. In case you haven't noticed SOE is the one driving the game mainstream, to be changed into the image of a mass market game, which is the very thing you have stated time after time you don't want to see. Somehow, I don't think this was McQuade's "Vision" for the game.
So, as a fanboi do you now admit that the "Vision" is gone, and it's a race for the mass market profit appeal?
I am perfectly aware of Sigil's needs. However, I would have believed in your sincerity if you were equally sensitive about the needs of the gaming community as well.
What the gaming community needs is polished, innovative, creative, intuitive, intelligent and working games with truthful advertising.
Past is the era of childhood! We have been awakened and we have grown up. Gaming scene has been evolving in leaps and bounds. There are new limits every year in technology, hardware capabilities, gaming concepts and software tools. Past is the era of cow milking on visions, unfulfilled promises and hypes!
Now we know better and we expect better. And we don't care about the needs of the gaming companies that refuse to adapt.
CONTRIBUTE INTO THE GAMING INDUSTRY! STOP PAYING FOR BORING COPYCATS, UNFINISHED BUGFESTS AND CRANKY JUNKWARE. BE A RESPONSIBLE GAMER!
truth in advertising? you can guarantee me everyone who has bought this game knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that it was being released in beta condition (beta condition being pretty much what the devs stated themselves)?
every parent that bought this game for their kids knew this? right? everyone that just kinda noticed a new online game, and were bored with the current crop, etc... EVERYONE knew?
prove it.
No, nor did I claim that EVERYONE knew this. I stated that pay to play MMOs are an invenstment and you should do your research before you buy it. That is the case of a parent just spoiling their child by purchasing them an MMORPG without reading anything about it. Truth in advertising? Where on the box did it say it was a complete or polished game? They promised a unique experience and with the bugs in the game I think they delivered on their word lol.
For the people who just "noticed a new online game and was tired of the current crop", they have access to the internet and they played another MMO. They can do research seeing as they had time to play another MMO. Anybody posting on these boards who has enough time to make posts like yours had the time to research it. Get over it and move on, it does not help you in any way to dwell on a game that you do not enjoy. Remember, it is just a game, and if you do not enjoy it, nobody is asking you to play and you would have better spent your time looking at new games rather than one you will not play anymore.
i quoted EXACTLY what you said. you're the one nit-picking on minutia. if i go to a store, i shouldn't have to research a GAME on the INTERNET, in order to have faith that the game is COMPLETE. i should be able to look at the box, read about the game ON THE BOX I'M PURCHASING, and based upon what i read, make my decision.
why in god's name would a box have to say the game is complete? what sort of fanboy mentality is that? nice follow up with the "lol". yes, a unique experience; so if you go stick your hand in a huge blender, turn it on, chop your hand to pieces, you too can have a unique experience.
no, i want an answer as to WHY a game has to say, on it's box, "this game is complete".
don't reply with anything else until you've given an logical, sensible reply to WHY a game has to say on it's box, "this game is complete" in order for ME to have faith that the game is complete.
you either have no idea what you're talking about, or you're some sick fanboy wannabe without any argument to actually back up your silliness.
read what you posted above, several times, very slowly. then go to a corner and pray for enlightenment. you may have to stay there a few weeks, but the fasting will do you good. once you have obtained enlightenment, on how many different levels this thinking is wrong; then come back and share it with us.
the only research you should HAVE to do, is reading what is on the box.
maybe you should get over your ill-thought-out argument? o, or i know... how about next time you go purchase anything it is that you want, it's broken. broken and you can't get it fixed until you send it in to the manufacturer to get it fixed. the manufacturer will take 3-15 months to fix it. who knows how long. plus, you don't know it's broken until you open it. and once you've opened it, you're stuck with it, you can NOT return it and no one else wants to buy it, because well, it's broken. and that needs to happen every time you (or your mum) purchases something for your use. unless, of course, you research it on the internet first and find out which brand names of that product aren't broken.
that makes as much sense as what you've stated.
actually, it makes more, because you can get your mum to help you.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?