Cartoon Graphics: A false look at wonderful art and design

xAlrythx

I hear alot of people on these forums talk about mmorpgs and cartoon graphics.

These statements are usually thrown at games like WoW and LotRO, even at WAR.

I honestly fail to see how these game's graphics resemble a cartoon at all.

In WoW's case. The graphics are based on the art of the game and resemble WC3 closely. They arn't chock full of polygons, but they are bright, inspiring, colourful and they look great on average computer systems.

Not once did I ever think to myself that this game looks like a cartoon. What did come to mind was the fact that the game looked like a world of warcraft. It was very colourful, and very fantasy like.

I then take a gaze upon the so-called realistic looking games such as VG and EQ2. What do I see?

I will use VG as an example.

I see alot of colours, washed out looking colours. I see plastic models that seem to gleam like they were dipped in too much polish. I see bland looking lands, deserts that are dark looking and uncolourful. Have you ever seen a desert in real life? The majority of my country is full of it (Australia). The sand is bright and warm, it's textures range from gold to yellow to a crisp brown. It looks amazing. Deserts are not supposed to look boring, dark, or anything in between. I find alot more things in these so-called realistic games unrealistic than I do in the 'cartoon looking' games.

I am very aware graphics are a matter of preference.

But when someone says to me my statements hold zero credit because I think VG looks no more realistic than WoW. I tend to think that particular person has their head in a place where it shouldn't be.

Thank you for reading. Please post and tell me what you think about the subject.

PS. This wasn't a hate thread, just a simple observation of my own eyes.

retrospectic

In a world of fireballs, demon pets, and holy warriors I would rather have a vibrant "cartoony" landspace that runs well on most computers than a plastic world that lurches on high end machines.  The graphics that came from Warcraft lent themselves splendidly to a make believe world of dragons and magic.  I think companies that attempt to make their games look "real" are shooting for a goal the average MMO consumer isn't ready for.  Sure, there are those out there with computers that can run Vanguard like Solitare, but not many.



In other words, I agree completely.  I have a more easier time with the graphics in WoW than many other "next gen" titles.  Warhammer and LOTRO have similar places in my heart.  Games like EQ, Vanguard, and others do not appeal to the same kind of fun and inspired graphics.  Everything else just looks like an attempt to do as much as possible and allowing low setting to be the place most rest their clients.

CaesarsGhost

To be honest I prefer the slightly off-real graphics of games.  The more realistic they claim, the more my mind seems to try (successfully to date) find things that are seriously seriously wrong.



WoW worked for me.  It looked like they had a creative direction that was the same throughout the entire game.

WAR has this as well, creative Direction.

EQ2 had some strange creative direction, but at least it was coherently similar throughout.

VG didn't seem to have any creative Director... so their graphics changed regularly from rock to ground to tree to character.  It seemed very stale and uninspired to me...

LotRO seems to have very coherent graphics, things look like they belong there.

DnL didn't have anything that meshed with anything... sometimes meshes were even missing.



I don't care what the graphics "Style" is... I want coherency throughout the gameworld.  If everything matches, it can use any style it wants.  But if I walk up to a boulder that looks different then the rocky mountain cliff it's sticking out of...



You get the point.



Graphics Styles aren't bad graphics, as long as it all blends in together correctly... in my book.

skywisenight

I think this is a very accurate observation too!  I agree totally.



While working on Wish a few years ago we ran into this exact problem with the washed out colours.  Many of us didn't even percieve it because we had been looking at it so long.  The decree that came from the top was over saturate everything... which we did.  Looking at the texture maps, it looked foolish, but looking at them together in context in the engine it all look so much better.



And no, I also wouldn't consider WoW cartoony but I think "stylized" would fit well.  Cartoony is Windwaker and games of that nature where everything is "flat" appearing.

retrospectic

Originally posted by skywisenight

I think this is a very accurate observation too!  I agree totally.



While working on Wish a few years ago we ran into this exact problem with the washed out colours.  Many of us didn't even percieve it because we had been looking at it so long.  The decree that came from the top was over saturate everything... which we did.  Looking at the texture maps, it looked foolish, but looking at them together in context in the engine it all look so much better.



And no, I also wouldn't consider WoW cartoony but I think "stylized" would fit well.  Cartoony is Windwaker and games of that nature where everything is "flat" appearing.

This is an MMORPG I would consider "cartoony".  That's mainly because it is cell shaded and draws art/concept directly from a cartoon.

skywisenight

Can't argue that!



Also Project Wiki is pretty toonish - http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/screens/gameID/198/setStart/1

Knightblast

Originally posted by xAlrythx


I hear alot of people on these forums talk about mmorpgs and cartoon graphics.
These statements are usually thrown at games like WoW and LotRO, even at WAR.
I honestly fail to see how these game's graphics resemble a cartoon at all.
In WoW's case. The graphics are based on the art of the game and resemble WC3 closely. They arn't chock full of polygons, but they are bright, inspiring, colourful and they look great on average computer systems.
Not once did I ever think to myself that this game looks like a cartoon. What did come to mind was the fact that the game looked like a world of warcraft. It was very colourful, and very fantasy like.
I then take a gaze upon the so-called realistic looking games such as VG and EQ2. What do I see?
I will use VG as an example.
I see alot of colours, washed out looking colours. I see plastic models that seem to gleam like they were dipped in too much polish. I see bland looking lands, deserts that are dark looking and uncolourful. Have you ever seen a desert in real life? The majority of my country is full of it (Australia). The sand is bright and warm, it's textures range from gold to yellow to a crisp brown. It looks amazing. Deserts are not supposed to look boring, dark, or anything in between. I find alot more things in these so-called realistic games unrealistic than I do in the 'cartoon looking' games.
I am very aware graphics are a matter of preference.
But when someone says to me my statements hold zero credit because I think VG looks no more realistic than WoW. I tend to think that particular person has their head in a place where it shouldn't be.
Thank you for reading. Please post and tell me what you think about the subject.
PS. This wasn't a hate thread, just a simple observation of my own eyes.

I agree with this.



To me the "realistic" graphics often end up looking pretty unrealistic, and generally feature a lot of dark browns, dark greens, and grays.  I's a very high resolution, low interest landscape.  Also the town areas generally look far too orderly, clean, and geometric than they should in a fantasy setting.



Fantasy isn't about realism, it is about fantasy -- color, excitement, breathtaking scenery that looks "unreal", "Fantastic" and so forth ... not something that looks like a pretty boring piece of overly-ordered browns, greens and greys.

Recant

When people describe WoW as cartoony, it's usually part of a wider dislike for the game and they're not being objective and just trying to infer that it's a kids only game.   But in reality, Azeroth must rank as one of the best realized game worlds ever created,  I mean seriously in the top 3, and that includes single-player games like Oblivion and GTA.



The art direction is fantastic, it's consistent and it's expressive.



Vanguard excels in some areas, like forests (which is handed by SpeedTree I think?).   I also think Everquest 2 is underrated in terms of art direction, they've done some wonderful stuff with a rather strange graphics engine, it's just a shame they're still using zones and marine bells (or did they ever add boats?) - and their griffins are the worst model I've seen in an MMO for a long time.

cupertino

For me from an eye candy POV.. Wow wins with VG being the worse, just no personality in the VG models, a blank stare and basic idle pose. its all subjective ofc.

DuraheLL

ok...

xAlrythx

Originally posted by skywisenight

And no, I also wouldn't consider WoW cartoony but I think "stylized" would fit well.

I agree completely (especially with this part) thank you for your post.

Originally posted by CaesarsGhost

Graphics Styles aren't bad graphics, as long as it all blends in together correctly... in my book.

Very true, I agree.

Originally posted by Novaseeker

Fantasy isn't about realism.

I couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by retrospectic

This is an MMORPG I would consider "cartoony".  That's mainly because it is cell shaded and draws art/concept directly from a cartoon.

That is definately what a cartoon looks like. Cell-shaded graphics representing a 2D form of art. Once again I couldn't agree more.

I didn't expect this many replies so soon to agree with what I said. Mostly due to the fact I have seen so many 'cartoon' references lately. Thanks for the replies everyone.

rob1101

its not the color or polygons that make wow look cartoony ( in my mind at leasts), the colors and textures were all fine. the only problem i had was the greatly over exaggerated art style. like a chair the size of a small house, a door way you could fit a car though, bridges designed so the space shuttle could get across. you know that kind of thing it kind of just subtracted from the whole experience for me.

retrospectic

Originally posted by rob1101

its not the color or polygons that make wow look cartoony ( in my mind at leasts), the colors and textures were all fine. the only problem i had was the greatly over exaggerated art style. like a chair the size of a small house, a door way you could fit a car though, bridges designed so the space shuttle could get across. you know that kind of thing it kind of just subtracted from the whole experience for me.

As far as "door way you could fit a car through", I might turn your attention to my friend here:





He may look like a brute, but he has a heart of gold.  Also, he is one of the major reasons for all doors in WoW being large.

In EQ the doors were all different sizes.  Problems arose in places like Thurgadin (Frozen Dwarf city) because Ogre and Troll players could hardly fit into the doorways to access places like the bank and crafters.  The chairs also need to accmodate the largest race.



Also, meet my other friend:



He may be small, but he is very strong!

If you made everything look less big and bulky you wouldn't have an opportunity for cool shots like this.  I am SO impressed that Blizzard decided to allow Gnomes to ride large mounts instead of shrinking them down and making it laughable.

In EQ all Gnome weapons shrank down to tiny tiny proportions.  I was ok with this because the weapons normal sizes wouldn't have meshed well with the graphics.

EQ then released MOUNTS and gnome mounts were tiny and ridiculous.

(See:)

Dreneth

Originally posted by cupertino



For me from an eye candy POV.. Wow wins with VG being the worse, just no personality in the VG models, a blank stare and basic idle pose. its all subjective ofc.

Personally, I prefer both of the other models to the WoW bimbo.

I would much rather have a game that attempts some sort of decent graphics...  doesn't have to be photorealistic... but I would rather see something which seems more lifelike.  I suppose it comes from my understanding of 3D modeling.  The only benefit to the WoW model is that it has a lower polygon count (like everything else in the game) and thus puts less strain on your video card.

This will all boil down to personal preference, of course, but for me... VG and LoTR offer far superior visual candy than WoW ever will.

Recant

Hey come on now, you can give EQ1 a better screenshot than that lol :P

retrospectic

Originally posted by Recant

Hey come on now, you can give EQ1 a better screenshot than that lol :P

I could, but the horse is still the same size compared to the High Elf.   =P  Plus EQ graphics suck more after the "update".  Every human is a porn star and every troll looks like an evil grandma.

Recant

Originally posted by Dreneth

Originally posted by cupertino



For me from an eye candy POV.. Wow wins with VG being the worse, just no personality in the VG models, a blank stare and basic idle pose. its all subjective ofc.

Personally, I prefer both of the other models to the WoW bimbo.

I would much rather have a game that attempts some sort of decent graphics...  doesn't have to be photorealistic... but I would rather see something which seems more lifelike.  I suppose it comes from my understanding of 3D modeling.  The only benefit to the WoW model is that it has a lower polygon count (like everything else in the game) and thus puts less strain on your video card.

This will all boil down to personal preference, of course, but for me... VG and LoTR offer far superior visual candy than WoW ever will.

That blood elf isn't a bimbo.  Just look at her glowing eyes!  It's not just about the static model, but the animations too.  Vanguards animations have much less variety than WoW's, for example.  The poses in Vanguard are far less natural, and unrealistic than WoW's animations, and that's not subjective, it's just that the lower polygon count means you can animate it more expressively without needing as many resources.

skywisenight

Exactly.  Look at the way the Elf is standing... almost like a real person.  The other two are "Eyes forward (espeically VG), arms straight at exact given angle, legs partly spread at given angle, and everything symetrical as far as positioning goes" The model is less than half the work IMHO.  How the model moves will be more immersive, if done right.

retrospectic

Originally posted by Dreneth

Originally posted by cupertino



For me from an eye candy POV.. Wow wins with VG being the worse, just no personality in the VG models, a blank stare and basic idle pose. its all subjective ofc.

Personally, I prefer both of the other models to the WoW bimbo.

I would much rather have a game that attempts some sort of decent graphics...  doesn't have to be photorealistic... but I would rather see something which seems more lifelike.  I suppose it comes from my understanding of 3D modeling.  The only benefit to the WoW model is that it has a lower polygon count (like everything else in the game) and thus puts less strain on your video card.

This will all boil down to personal preference, of course, but for me... VG and LoTR offer far superior visual candy than WoW ever will.

It was either lucky or Blizzard planned that the low end graphics would attract millions of customers.  I think VG and LOTRO will never amount to the customer base that WoW enjoys.  The problem is that computers that can run WoW with some higher settings on can't even run VG on the lowest settings(me included).  In the time it will take me to catch up VG will have gained its niche crowd and be just another AO or DAoC.



I rate quality of graphics on more than just realism.  Although it is a personal preference I think that a game which focuses on realism and "decent" graphics can fall short of realizng the goal on an MMO.  It is hard to be massive when half of your potential crowd can't even get past the log in screen.  I gave WoW a high rating on this site because lots of people can play it without it looking like stick figures. 



Although, if your computer can cut it, go for it.

docminus

well, for me it doesn't matter even if we would agree that wow is cartoonish or not. as long as i feel immersed some way or another, it's okay.

VG did it for me for a while, since I picked a "good starting place". I love the asian style e.g. and the faces are imho pretty good because they have a lot of details (at least in the creation screen....). but since many areas obviously never got finished in their design, they are simply boring in the end



DDO I thought for a long time sucks, because it is a bit like an "asian clone mmo", faces all similar and static. BUT, nowadays I enjoy myself ingame a lot, the surrounding graphics are nice, no matter if cartoony/realistic/or not, so I feel immersed. just as I did in WoW. heck, you don't even get to see your cloak or helmet, but I don't really care it's still fun to play. but for a hardcore rpg-er that could of course be a problem....



LOTRO e.g. has some areas that don't seem fully developed either, so it actually can "suck" in comparison to the well designed shire area. the toons on the other had are too much a compromise - due to all the polygons, and whatever techniques used, as a compromise in terms of computing power/graphics power, developers have not and will not fix the clipping problem of cloaks and weapons. looks horrbile, very annoying for me. for this i would have rather had  "less good graphics" but a decent (in this case) clipping system (as e.g. wow has).



so in summary, as someone else here said, the more realistic they try to make it, the "easier" you will find faults and become bothered by them.

CaesarsGhost

Originally posted by xAlrythx




Originally posted by CaesarsGhost

Graphics Styles aren't bad graphics, as long as it all blends in together correctly... in my book.

Very true, I agree.

That's what I said before, and I stick by it.  It's less so the style, and moreso for immersion.

Tanok

It has absolutly nothing to do with colors, but the way everything is designed.



It's the fact that everything is polarized. It can only be huge or small, not something in between. Taurens are absurdly large while gnomes are absurdly small. Even humans have grossly oversized muscles, weapons, and whatsoever, despite being somewhat normal in proportions.



In cartoons you see this all the time. Action Man with huge overarms and wielding big guns, or Barbie with the tinyest of wastes you can imagine. Hey, does Barbie remind you of something? Yes, she reminds us of WoW characters, especially elves.



But not only characters are extreme, buildings and objects are, too! A chair with huge armleans and back, but with small legs uncapable of sustaining a chair like that if it was in the real world.



Not only are thins polarized, they are drawn in a soft and gentle, almost childish way. That combined with the archetypes, the extremes of the extremes, is so similar to cartoons that the connection is obvious.



Sure, you're right about what you're saying, but you're missing out the important parts by only looking at the subject of "colors".



EDIT: Oh, and another thing -

Cartoons are not only flat, 2-d characters, but also 3-d etc. It's fairly common practice to make cartoons in 3-d. You need to expand your understanding of what cartoon means and go beyond your stereotypical conception of it. You are right about WoW etc are not 2-d, but that still means it can be cartoonish.

Recant

Originally posted by Tanok

It has absolutly nothing to do with colors, but the way everything is designed.



It's the fact that everything is polarized. It can only be huge or small, not something in between. Taurens are absurdly large while gnomes are absurdly small. Even humans have grossly oversized muscles, weapons, and whatsoever, despite being somewhat normal in proportions.



In cartoons you see this all the time. Action Man with huge overarms and wielding big guns, or Barbie with the tinyest of wastes you can imagine. Hey, does Barbie remind you of something? Yes, she reminds us of WoW characters, especially elves.



But not only characters are extreme, buildings and objects are, too! A chair with huge armleans and back, but with small legs uncapable of sustaining a chair like that if it was in the real world.



Not only are thins polarized, they are drawn in a soft and gentle, almost childish way. That combined with the archetypes, the extremes of the extremes, is so similar to cartoons that the connection is obvious.



Sure, you're right about what you're saying, but you're missing out the important parts by only looking at the subject of "colors".

I understand what you're saying here.  Some of the architecture and armor is in WoW is very over-the-top, very unrealistc and those who pay attention to detail will scoff at this.  And for some people this can be a deal-breaker I guess.   The important thing to many is the consistency -  you can be immersed in this world, and funny looking chairs and the like do make sense if everything is presented smoothly and consistently.



As for the models, the humans have wider wastes than the Elves though, who are supposed to have a slender phsyique.  Barbie dolls are shiny, move stiffly and have little expressive capability (SO I'M TOLD!), where as WoW models aren't - the doll comparison is more applicable to Vanguard and EQ2 than WoW imo.

Tanok

Originally posted by Recant

Originally posted by Tanok

It has absolutly nothing to do with colors, but the way everything is designed.



It's the fact that everything is polarized. It can only be huge or small, not something in between. Taurens are absurdly large while gnomes are absurdly small. Even humans have grossly oversized muscles, weapons, and whatsoever, despite being somewhat normal in proportions.



In cartoons you see this all the time. Action Man with huge overarms and wielding big guns, or Barbie with the tinyest of wastes you can imagine. Hey, does Barbie remind you of something? Yes, she reminds us of WoW characters, especially elves.



But not only characters are extreme, buildings and objects are, too! A chair with huge armleans and back, but with small legs uncapable of sustaining a chair like that if it was in the real world.



Not only are thins polarized, they are drawn in a soft and gentle, almost childish way. That combined with the archetypes, the extremes of the extremes, is so similar to cartoons that the connection is obvious.



Sure, you're right about what you're saying, but you're missing out the important parts by only looking at the subject of "colors".

I understand what you're saying here.  Some of the architecture and armor is in WoW is very over-the-top, very unrealistc and those who pay attention to detail will scoff at this.  And for some people this can be a deal-breaker I guess.   The important thing to many is the consistency -  you can be immersed in this world, and funny looking chairs and the like do make sense if everything is presented smoothly and consistently.



As for the models, the humans have wider wastes than the Elves though, who are supposed to have a slender phsyique.  Barbie dolls are shiny, move stiffly and have little expressive capability (SO I'M TOLD!), where as WoW models aren't - the doll comparison is more applicable to Vanguard and EQ2 than WoW imo.

Doesn't Barbie move around in cartoons? Doesn't she change her expression?

WoW is way over the top, but it keeps the same style throughout the whole game. It gets fcredit for that.



But having that said doesn't mean it isn't cartoonish. Some people like cartoonish games, which is fair enough! But that's besides the point. The point is that WoW etc is cartoonish.

retrospectic

Originally posted by skywisenight

Exactly.  Look at the way the Elf is standing... almost like a real person.  The other two are "Eyes forward (espeically VG), arms straight at exact given angle, legs partly spread at given angle, and everything symetrical as far as positioning goes" The model is less than half the work IMHO.  How the model moves will be more immersive, if done right.

I totally agree. I had a lot of trouble with the "realism" in some games due to the way the character models interacted with the environment, or even the way they idled.



Does anyone remember the horrible sitting positions of the "updated" EQ models?  My bard stabbed himself in the sides every time he sat down.

Telvannas

So, very, very true.