The sense of Danger is gone in current MMO's

zethcarn

To me,  this is the biggest motivator for me to keep playing a game.   The danger of not knowing whether I'll live or die by one mistake.  The danger of knowing what the consquences are for making such a mistake.    This is not intended to be a PvP thread,  but I'll say this is why people like PvP. 

I MYSELF am not an avid PvP player in MMOs.   I use to be crazy about FPS games before I played MMOs though, for the obvious reasons of not knowing when you were going to get shot and die.   EverQuest was my first MMO and it gained my respect by how hard it was (in 1999)  and the possibility of losing all my gear for making n00b mistakes.  Sadly,  the current genre of PvE based games offer no "real" sense of danger,  which in turns causes apathy about your character and the game itself.   

I don't like how every company seems to cater to the people who just want to grind from quest to quest (solo of course) and prance in fields looking for rainbows & flowers. 

Edit:  read my signature,  "They are motivated by meeting the challenges of the world"   Says it all.

Dreneth

Originally posted by zethcarn




I don't like how every company seems to cater to the people who just want to grind from quest to quest (solo of course) and prance in fields looking for rainbows & flowers. 

That's because they haven't caught on that you can provide both carebear and hardcore content in the same game.  I sometimes like to fluffy-bunny around when I don't have much time to play, but I generally love a more challenging environment.  For a game to be truly great, both avenues of gameplay should be made available without one taking away from the other.  It can be done. 

ianubisi

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Originally posted by zethcarn

I don't like how every company seems to cater to the people who just want to grind from quest to quest (solo of course) and prance in fields looking for rainbows & flowers.

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There are more of them then there are of you.

Volkmar

Originally posted by zethcarn


To me,  this is the biggest motivator for me to keep playing a game.   The danger of not knowing whether I'll live or die by one mistake.  The danger of knowing what the consquences are for making such a mistake.    This is not intended to be a PvP thread,  but I'll say this is why people like PvP. 
I MYSELF am not an avid PvP player in MMOs.   I use to be crazy about FPS games before I played MMOs though, for the obvious reasons of not knowing when you were going to get shot and die.   EverQuest was my first MMO and it gained my respect by how hard it was (in 1999)  and the possibility of losing all my gear for making n00b mistakes.  Sadly,  the current genre of PvE based games offer no "real" sense of danger,  which in turns causes apathy about your character and the game itself.   
I don't like how every company seems to cater to the people who just want to grind from quest to quest (solo of course) and prance in fields looking for rainbows & flowers. 
Edit:  read my signature,  "They are motivated by meeting the challenges of the world"   Says it all.

so.... i take you never play any game with a "save" function?

arctarus

Originally posted by Dreneth

Originally posted by zethcarn




I don't like how every company seems to cater to the people who just want to grind from quest to quest (solo of course) and prance in fields looking for rainbows & flowers. 

That's because they haven't caught on that you can provide both carebear and hardcore content in the same game.  I sometimes like to fluffy-bunny around when I don't have much time to play, but I generally love a more challenging environment.  For a game to be truly great, both avenues of gameplay should be made available without one taking away from the other.  It can be done. 




They can always have different ruleset of servers...

Dreneth

Originally posted by arctarus



They can always have different ruleset of servers...

If done correctly, there would be no need.  Save the expense of running two sets of servers for the same game, and just design it well.  That's the key...  publishers need to really step up the quality of the gameplay... not just the graphics.  It really isn't that far of a stretch to incorporate both lighter gameplay and more hardcode gameplay in the same server.

Meridion

Simple, fear of sudden death is not the motivation for playing computer games to most guys. thats the whole secret, oh yea, and, as you probably already know, they release the games the market demands ^^



Meridion

Dreneth

Originally posted by Meridion

Simple, fear of sudden death is not the motivation for playing computer games to most guys. thats the whole secret, oh yea, and, as you probably already know, they release the games the market demands ^^



Meridion

It would be nice if you were correct...

The simply fact is that games which are too easy aren't really all that interesting.  Sure, any 12 year old with his mom's credit card can play, but where the hell is the sense of challenge?  And don't make the mistake of assuming that publishers release the sort of games the market demands.  They release what they want to make, and we're left with few options.

The MMO scene at present is stale, stagnant, and full of opportunists with little regard for quality gaming.  Hopefully some of the new titles will change things a bit.

ianubisi

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Originally posted by Dreneth
And don't make the mistake of assuming that publishers release the sort of games the market demands. They release what they want to make, and we're left with few options.

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You clearly know nothing about capitalism and market economics.

Dreneth

Originally posted by ianubisi


 
 
You clearly know nothing about capitalism and market economics.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! 

Actually...  *snicker* ...I am very familiar with both topics.  The market is currently driven by production.  You can't play an alternative that doesn't exist.  lol

ianubisi

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Originally posted by Dreneth
The market is currently driven by production. You can't play an alternative that doesn't exist.

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Your thesis being that gaming companies are aware of what a large segment of consumers will buy, but refuse to do so for their own selfish reasons?

Vion1x

OP: i agree with the fear/danger thing.

i have played games where i had that fear of dieing... and the things that makes me fear is that i lose something of value when i die, then i CARE about when i die, and the hole thing is alot more serious because u just dont screw around doing stupid things.

another great thing if u want to fear, is FFA pvp, meaning u can kill anyone anywhere, that also makes most ppl think alot more before they speak, and if they dont think before they speak, well they might get killed and have a lose of something because of death.

Dreneth

Originally posted by ianubisi


 
 
Your thesis being that gaming companies are aware of what a large segment of consumers will buy, but refuse to do so for their own selfish reasons?

Game publishers are aware of what is the most cost effective to produce, which means slimming down development budgets to maximize profits.  The unfortunate side effect is that in the slimming, innovation is usually the first to go.  There are not a lot of choices out there for high quality MMO's, and very few of them are much different than the rest.  Are you going to avoid games altogether?  Probably not... and publishers know this.

I am hoping that games like Pirates of The Burning Sea will begin to change the perspectives and expectations of players.  As it stands right now, WoW is the only game to really have captured such a huge market share, and all they did was release a rather mediocre game that was stable.

Now imagine if someone would publish a stable and innovative game, you'll see WoW's popularity decline quite a bit.

Meridion

OMG, now where do YOU live? This market segment has over 25 major, subscription based titles. They all provide entertainment service with a really harsh competition going on there. Magic word here: Subscription based.

It's not only people decide if they buy your product or not, NO, they decide wether they keep playing it or choose one of the numerous other MMORPGs that gladly offer a lot of things to do. Those game are multi-million dollar productions and the developers, but first of all the publishers worldwide, want those games to be profitable. They EXACTLY produce what they think most people will like and titles like WoW that attractet armies of player that have never played ANY mmorpg before prove that more then impressively.



The games tha we have now are exactly what the market demands in terms of "what will get the best income ratio sales- and subscriptionwise". And I insist on the point, out of simple personal life experience, that most people cope with challenges, but actually enjoy safety, at least to a certain degree. Nobody likes soccer games in which you get killed as a player or poker for wounds, or whatever sick fantasies haunt some peoples' minds. If you play games for fear and fight, you are NOT part of the majority, rest assured...



Meridion

Knightblast

That theory only works if you think people truly are addicted to MMOs such that even if no appealing ones are available, they will still play them, and in large numbers.  I don't think that's really the case.  It's true that there are some addicts, but there are many more people who flit around from genre to genre and so forth depending on what they find fun.  I do think that the MMO producers are providing the largest segment of the market with what it finds fun -- at the same time it;s true that the more "advanced" market is being left to the side for the moment because it is smaller than the broadbase market.



If EVE had 8m subs, you'd bet there'd be 5 companies out there working on games like EVE.  The market *does* have an influence on what gets made.

Dreneth

You people make me laugh.  lol

Ciredric

Maybe you don't like a sci-fi theme, but if you want sense of danger you should really try Eve Online.

If you can't find sense of danger there, you are hiding in the space station.

Dreneth

Originally posted by Meridion

OMG, now where do YOU live? This market segment has over 25 major, subscription based titles...

I live in the real world, my excitable forum friend.

I never said that game publishers don't publish profitable titles...  that would be incorrect.  They do not, however, publish many innovative titles.  It's like choosing a cigarette.  They are all pretty similar, and only slight variations in flavor.  It's all in the packaging.

Doesn't mean they're good... they're just good enough.

Dreneth

Originally posted by Novaseeker

That theory only works if you think people truly are addicted to MMOs such that even if no appealing ones are available, they will still play them, and in large numbers.  I don't think that's really the case.  It's true that there are some addicts, but there are many more people who flit around from genre to genre and so forth depending on what they find fun.  I do think that the MMO producers are providing the largest segment of the market with what it finds fun -- at the same time it;s true that the more "advanced" market is being left to the side for the moment because it is smaller than the broadbase market.



If EVE had 8m subs, you'd bet there'd be 5 companies out there working on games like EVE.  The market *does* have an influence on what gets made.

The broadbase market is brand new to the scene.  WoW brought people into the MMO world that never would have come here before.  It's easy to play, runs well on almost any PC, and Blizzard had a HUGE following before hand with the Warcraft series.  Most of the people that play WoW, have no idea what a quality game is... because they only have their experience with WoW to go by.  Hell, a lot of them don't know the names of half of the other popular titles out there.

People make clones of other games because it is easier and more cost effective to clone than innovate.

Knightblast

Originally posted by Dreneth

Originally posted by Novaseeker

That theory only works if you think people truly are addicted to MMOs such that even if no appealing ones are available, they will still play them, and in large numbers.  I don't think that's really the case.  It's true that there are some addicts, but there are many more people who flit around from genre to genre and so forth depending on what they find fun.  I do think that the MMO producers are providing the largest segment of the market with what it finds fun -- at the same time it;s true that the more "advanced" market is being left to the side for the moment because it is smaller than the broadbase market.



If EVE had 8m subs, you'd bet there'd be 5 companies out there working on games like EVE.  The market *does* have an influence on what gets made.

The broadbase market is brand new to the scene.  WoW brought people into the MMO world that never would have come here before.  It's easy to play, runs well on almost any PC, and Blizzard had a HUGE following before hand with the Warcraft series.  Most of the people that play WoW, have no idea what a quality game is... because they only have their experience with WoW to go by.  Hell, a lot of them don't know the names of half of the other popular titles out there.

People make clones of other games because it is easier and more cost effective to clone than innovate.

In this case, though, you can't ignore that market -- it's there, and it's huge.  And because of that people are going to make games that they hope appeal to a decent portion of it.  I mean if you can design/market a game that appeals to 25% of WoW people, who cares one iota about the pre-WoW average sub numbers and the people who were MMOers pre-WoW?



There isn't any incentive to innovate because there is a huge market out there and a product that's proven to be liked by them.  Best to clone that product and try to grab market share, at least in the short term.  I think in the medium term there is more room for innovation as the market matures a bit, but right now it's a gold rush for the market Blizzard created really -- and honestly, I don't know why anyone is surprised at that.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Dreneth

WoW brought people into the MMO world that never would have come here before.  It's easy to play, runs well on almost any PC, and Blizzard had a HUGE following before hand with the Warcraft series.  Most of the people that play WoW, have no idea what a quality game is... because they only have their experience with WoW to go by.  Hell, a lot of them don't know the names of half of the other popular titles out there.

People make clones of other games because it is easier and more cost effective to clone than innovate.

Maybe the reason that those other "popular" title's you mentioned aren't known is because they are not easy to play and/or don't run well on any PC.  Maybe, just maybe, those are two important (albeit not the only) criteria for a quality game.  I believe Blizzard spent over 30 million dollars making WOW..doesn't sound like they cut any corners make some sort of cheap knock off game.



You keep stating that for a game to be good, it has to be innovative and groundbreaking. Truthfully, early adopters usually live on the bleeding edge and are rarely commercial successes. (this is true in movies, gaming and about a million other things).



Stating that WOW isn't a quality game is just foolish.... it most certainly is.  You don't have to like it... I don't play it either, but doesn't mean that it lacks quality. 



Tell the truth Drenth....you're an old UO, AC or SWG game player who's still bitter that your favorite game hasn't been resurrected or updated or improved on...because they just weren't that popular to begin with.



Edit:  Darn it...always forget to stay on topic when no one else is......  to the OP..you want danger and excitement and the fear/thrill of dying?  Consider joining the Marines...I hear they have some assignments that would provide you all the action you are looking for.



Other than that...better wait for WAR, Darkfall or some other new games to come out soon.

Dreneth

Originally posted by Novaseeker



In this case, though, you can't ignore that market -- it's there, and it's huge.  And because of that people are going to make games that they hope appeal to a decent portion of it.  I mean if you can design/market a game that appeals to 25% of WoW people, who cares one iota about the pre-WoW average sub numbers and the people who were MMOers pre-WoW?



There isn't any incentive to innovate because there is a huge market out there and a product that's proven to be liked by them.  Best to clone that product and try to grab market share, at least in the short term.  I think in the medium term there is more room for innovation as the market matures a bit, but right now it's a gold rush for the market Blizzard created really -- and honestly, I don't know why anyone is surprised at that.

I'm not surprised by it... I am dissapointed.

If publishers are going to come out with WoW clone after WoW clone... that means that decent games are getting pooched... and that is a damned shame.  There is so much potential out there, and it is being ignored because everyone wants to make the money Blizzard has made.  Well, I have news for you...

No other game will do what WoW did without innovating.  It will take something truly interesting to even scratch that surface.  But, unfortunately, people are going to set the bar low because of Blizzard.

healz4u

I agree.





The world needs to feel genuine, authentic but unpredictable.  It should be dangerous, especially in some parts of the world. 

wjrasmussen

Originally posted by Dreneth

Originally posted by Novaseeker



In this case, though, you can't ignore that market -- it's there, and it's huge.  And because of that people are going to make games that they hope appeal to a decent portion of it.  I mean if you can design/market a game that appeals to 25% of WoW people, who cares one iota about the pre-WoW average sub numbers and the people who were MMOers pre-WoW?



There isn't any incentive to innovate because there is a huge market out there and a product that's proven to be liked by them.  Best to clone that product and try to grab market share, at least in the short term.  I think in the medium term there is more room for innovation as the market matures a bit, but right now it's a gold rush for the market Blizzard created really -- and honestly, I don't know why anyone is surprised at that.

I'm not surprised by it... I am dissapointed.

If publishers are going to come out with WoW clone after WoW clone... that means that decent games are getting pooched... and that is a damned shame.  There is so much potential out there, and it is being ignored because everyone wants to make the money Blizzard has made.  Well, I have news for you...

No other game will do what WoW did without innovating.  It will take something truly interesting to even scratch that surface.  But, unfortunately, people are going to set the bar low because of Blizzard.

The bar is set by the mass consumers.  Until the current trends become a lot worse for the profit margin or unless someone takes a "big risk" there isn't any sigificant business pressure to change design philosophies.

Knightblast

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

Originally posted by Dreneth

Originally posted by Novaseeker



In this case, though, you can't ignore that market -- it's there, and it's huge.  And because of that people are going to make games that they hope appeal to a decent portion of it.  I mean if you can design/market a game that appeals to 25% of WoW people, who cares one iota about the pre-WoW average sub numbers and the people who were MMOers pre-WoW?



There isn't any incentive to innovate because there is a huge market out there and a product that's proven to be liked by them.  Best to clone that product and try to grab market share, at least in the short term.  I think in the medium term there is more room for innovation as the market matures a bit, but right now it's a gold rush for the market Blizzard created really -- and honestly, I don't know why anyone is surprised at that.

I'm not surprised by it... I am dissapointed.

If publishers are going to come out with WoW clone after WoW clone... that means that decent games are getting pooched... and that is a damned shame.  There is so much potential out there, and it is being ignored because everyone wants to make the money Blizzard has made.  Well, I have news for you...

No other game will do what WoW did without innovating.  It will take something truly interesting to even scratch that surface.  But, unfortunately, people are going to set the bar low because of Blizzard.

The bar is set by the mass consumers.  Until the current trends become a lot worse for the profit margin or unless someone takes a "big risk" there isn't any sigificant business pressure to change design philosophies.

Indeed, I would say actually that there is significant business/financial pressure to stay the course in terms of designs.



That also creates an opportunity for someone who is willing to take a risk and who pulls off a quality game that is also off the reservation in terms of design -- but that takes the confluence of a great set of ideas, a great process of execution and polish and financial backers who buy in.

Dreneth

Originally posted by wjrasmussen



The bar is set by the mass consumers.  Until the current trends become a lot worse for the profit margin or unless someone takes a "big risk" there isn't any sigificant business pressure to change design philosophies.

The bar isn't set by the consumers... though one would think it is.  The bar is set by those who put the bar up... the publishers.  Innovation is being held up by the publishers because they can get away with "just enough", and It's been like that for years.  I have heard more complaints about lack of innovation, lack of original content, lack of ( insert any of the hundreds of issues )... and yet here we are... watching games come out with the same lackluster and unpolished clone-stink.

You should be insulted that game publishers are pissing in your face and calling it rain.  There is absolutely no excuse for the poor quality that is coming out of the code-factories, and players who are perfectly happy trying to explain away why thing suck rather than show their frustration should be slapped as much as anyone.

You know what I am doing?  I have resubscribed to Dark Age of Camelot.  That's right... the game is older than my kid, yet I resubbed.  Why?  Because their support rocks, and the game reminds me of what an MMO could be.  The population isn't as good as it used to be, and the game is definitely dated, but for its time is was very innovative and a hell of a lot of fun.  I am still having fun with it all these years later.

With all of the advances in both hardware and software...  how the hell isn't there a game out by now that can be as exciting and innovative as DAoC was when it released??  It's friggin insulting!!

I will not pay a dime to a game publisher who is going to call me an idiot by expecting me to buy their half assed, pathetic waste of pixels, when I know damned well how much better things could be.