Originally posted by ginatrout I dont know about you, but I would have to stick with the most safest, time tested class or cookie cutter skills thats going to keep me alive...and you know what...Id never leave newbie territories. Now how fun is that!
Well, it's not like anyones talking about insta-perma-death(tm) on site of a mob.
Theres a quote under my name that lists the game I've played (the ones I've just tried for a few weeks are not listed). You can doubt my credibility all you like, I've still played EvE for a few months in a serious lowsec corp and I don't play WoW anymore and I've played tons of games in between, so i very well know what there is on the market, and what there isn't. Besides, going for WoW Raid 2 and 3 challenges is anything but easy, it eats your whole day for breakfast, just SUPPORTING the raid ^^
What I wanted to say, I don't think I'm missing the point, I think people that play EvE or EQ or DDO and whine about how easy games are, those people lack broad perspective and a perception of what the majority of players like. Plus the ability to actually motivate themselves just for the sake of beating a challenge and accomplishing a task. And there are hard to achieve goals in every single MMO out there. From WoW, where they just introduced instances that company sponsored 24/7 guilds plan 6 months in advance to finish, to Post-NGE-SWG, where getting all landmarks or just grinding up to level 90 is an achievement. Maybe not a glorious tactical victory of mind vs. mind, but hard earned success of self-discipline (and I salute you, I couldn't grind SWG)...
So again, stop whining and find challenges, there are more than enough; at least if you're not too spoiled by one-way titles like UO/EQ/EvE...
Because for standard people, its enough to lose, more precise: Its exactly what the normal videogamer wants to bear before getting frustrated. It sure can be challenging, everybody likes challenges, but if people lose, they don't want to be punished by the system. Is that such a hard to understand principle...
I know you guys are hard boiled "darn I lost ma ship but I'm gonna grind for 14 more days and make your life grief and sorrow muahahaha"-types, but hell on earth, normal people are not like that. Whats so hard to understand here?
Meridion
I agree that losing is enough - in PvE. In PvP losing without "punishment" is no fun at all. I have played WoW and the ffa pvp is simply boring. Is it fun to fight someone who is obviously not giving the fight his all? Why should he? There is nothing to lose, nothing to gain. Looting your enemy is not a punishment, it is motivation for you to take the fight more serious than just running into your doom and not caring.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I agree/disagree that games need more danger involved, but if there is too much it takes away from the possible fun of other things.
For the agree part: I love to play the Masochist (non-sexual) and love it when something goes wrong and it causes me trouble either then or later on by either losing items/gold, losing xp (this one, not so much...it works I suppose), or just takes away stats. Now, I won't use the "it keeps you on your toe" bullshit, but it does make me take things a little more seriously and it makes me try to concentrate as I go along. In most of the current games I play, I have no need to worry about dying or screwing up since as soon as I am revived/reborn/whatever, everything is fixed with no penalty.
For the disagreeing part: As I said before, I love playing the Masochist so with a weak death penalty I can die as much as I want without worrying about screwing up. Often in games, I'll run into a group of monsters or players and see if I can at least kill one or I'll try some stupid idea that might get me killed just to see if it'll work and I'll usually have a blast at it even if it doesn't work. If there was too much of a penalty/danger to me dying or screwing up, it would lose some of the fun since I'd have to take everything seriously and go with what I know will protect me even if it's lame or boring. Along with all of this, people hate penalty/anything dangerous because they don't want to have to do the same thing over and over again if they keep messing up when they don't have a lot of time on their hands and want to get through some content.
The solution to the problem to allow both sides to be happy? Allow both into the game. The problem with that is the developers will always tend to lean towards one or the other so it will never be equal and it might be far imbalanced.
Aw..but the key words in this topic is motivation and challenge. Who know what people's motivations are...and whats challenging to most people will not be challenging for you. I fall under the camp that there shouldnt be a manditory harsh death penalty. I cant speak for everyone, but for me if the death penalty is so harsh...what's the motivation to explore new worlds and try new classes or skills. I dont know about you, but I would have to stick with the most safest, time tested class or cookie cutter skills thats going to keep me alive...and you know what...Id never leave newbie territories. Now how fun is that!
How about rewarding players who never die with uber gear or a special title. Or when your creating your toon, you have a choice of god mode (or a god mode server) where the penalities are there but so are the nicer rewards. And as far as new games not catering for this type of challege, I agree that the market will only bare games that the masses will enjoy...trends come in waves so yes we will see more WoW/Lotro games...but that too will change. I also wouldnt discount niche game developers to come up with games that will fit your idea of challenge.
Buffs for not dying are a good way to go imo. Maybe some extra powers/benefits and such.
Because for standard people, its enough to lose, more precise: Its exactly what the normal videogamer wants to bear before getting frustrated. It sure can be challenging, everybody likes challenges, but if people lose, they don't want to be punished by the system. Is that such a hard to understand principle...
I know you guys are hard boiled "darn I lost ma ship but I'm gonna grind for 14 more days and make your life grief and sorrow muahahaha"-types, but hell on earth, normal people are not like that. Whats so hard to understand here?
Meridion
I agree that losing is enough - in PvE. In PvP losing without "punishment" is no fun at all. I have played WoW and the ffa pvp is simply boring. Is it fun to fight someone who is obviously not giving the fight his all? Why should he? There is nothing to lose, nothing to gain. Looting your enemy is not a punishment, it is motivation for you to take the fight more serious than just running into your doom and not caring.
Thats just for you then. For me just beating them is fun. I don't care about looting them. The motivation is not to loot them but to try to beat them, or to survive being beaten. That is fun for me. When I lose a pvp that was not really fun but losing something would be even worse. The losing alone is enough punishment. I don't need nor want anything more and like meridion said, and I agree with, I feel this is the what the majority are looking for. The action of losing alone is enough of a punishment, nothing more is needed. The act of beating someone is reward enough, nothing more is needed.
You may be right about people not taking it seriously but you know what? That is ok because this is a game, a place a great many people, IMO the majority of people come to relax and not be taken seriously.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The bar is set by the mass consumers. Until the current trends become a lot worse for the profit margin or unless someone takes a "big risk" there isn't any sigificant business pressure to change design philosophies.
The bar isn't set by the consumers... though one would think it is. The bar is set by those who put the bar up... the publishers. Innovation is being held up by the publishers because they can get away with "just enough", and It's been like that for years. I have heard more complaints about lack of innovation, lack of original content, lack of ( insert any of the hundreds of issues )... and yet here we are... watching games come out with the same lackluster and unpolished clone-stink.
You should be insulted that game publishers are pissing in your face and calling it rain. There is absolutely no excuse for the poor quality that is coming out of the code-factories, and players who are perfectly happy trying to explain away why thing suck rather than show their frustration should be slapped as much as anyone.
You know what I am doing? I have resubscribed to Dark Age of Camelot. That's right... the game is older than my kid, yet I resubbed. Why? Because their support rocks, and the game reminds me of what an MMO could be. The population isn't as good as it used to be, and the game is definitely dated, but for its time is was very innovative and a hell of a lot of fun. I am still having fun with it all these years later.
With all of the advances in both hardware and software... how the hell isn't there a game out by now that can be as exciting and innovative as DAoC was when it released?? It's friggin insulting!!
I will not pay a dime to a game publisher who is going to call me an idiot by expecting me to buy their half assed, pathetic waste of pixels, when I know damned well how much better things could be.
I say that is wrong. Computer game have been around for decades. At first a small market but a growing one. There have been many titles over the years. I still recall getting games on cassette tape for use with my trash computer. The market place has been determined by a couple of decades worth of sales hits and flops. This isn't a new market. They are not holding back beccause they are milking it. It is a game of marketshare and if something innovative would insure a gain in marketshare they woulndn't hesitate in making and selling it.
Dunno what the hell this thread has turned into by skimming through some of the posts, but it seems nobodies mentioned good 'ol FFXI. S'basically an EQ1 clone, but with much better artistic design, imo.
You want danger? How bout having all the monsters in your xping area easily able to kill you when they're at your level or slightly above? Often when traveling to an area with a party to fight mobs you'll have to sneak your way there. Sneaking spells/potions don't last forever. Sometimes a few minutes, sometimes as a few seconds.
Consequences. You lose 8% of your total xp when you die and enter a 'weakend' state where all your stats are reduced by 70% for 5 minutes or so. Fun? Not really, infact one of the more punishing mmo's when it comes to death.
Oh yeah, theres no corpse run. Nope, you get a free ride home to wherever you set your Homepoint (aka Hearth). Oh but you died during a fight? An nobody in the party can raise you? Guess what, you get to drag your butt back out to wherever they are to try an get back that xp you loss.
One of the pros an cons of the game is also that fact that is pretty much multiplayer required. You have to group for xp. You have to group for missions. You have to group for a hefty portion of the quests. You have to group for Assaults. You have to group for BCNMs. You have to group for coffer key hunting. You have to group for (most) level break quests.
If you like groups, if you like playing with a wide range of players of all different kinds of skilllevels an jobs, not to mention actually playing with (gasp!) japanese players, then you might like this.
If you want to solo, if you hate waiting often at times hours for that healer to login, or for that tank to show up, if you hate having to trek for 20 minutes to an xp spot only to find it overcrowded an have to move to another one, or if you hate having to deal with bad partymembers, an if you hate putting up with abit of prejudice... well... this isn't your game.
I don't play the game anymore (right now). The time requirement is extensive, especially the higher you go. I had thought I was done with the game altogether, but... after getting burned out on WoW again for the 3rd time in a year, I might go back to it for the summer. They added Chocobo breeding a few months ago an are planning on letting players race them come summer/fall.
S'not like theres anything better to play until WAR.
i think i just found my next game cause the way you describe it .gees it must be fun .there must be a lot less bot in there right.aaaarrrg i saw so many bot in silkroad and company that it become a paranoia lol .HHHHEEELLLPPP
Comments
Well, it's not like anyones talking about insta-perma-death(tm) on site of a mob.
MMORPG
What I wanted to say, I don't think I'm missing the point, I think people that play EvE or EQ or DDO and whine about how easy games are, those people lack broad perspective and a perception of what the majority of players like. Plus the ability to actually motivate themselves just for the sake of beating a challenge and accomplishing a task. And there are hard to achieve goals in every single MMO out there. From WoW, where they just introduced instances that company sponsored 24/7 guilds plan 6 months in advance to finish, to Post-NGE-SWG, where getting all landmarks or just grinding up to level 90 is an achievement. Maybe not a glorious tactical victory of mind vs. mind, but hard earned success of self-discipline (and I salute you, I couldn't grind SWG)...
So again, stop whining and find challenges, there are more than enough; at least if you're not too spoiled by one-way titles like UO/EQ/EvE...
Meridion
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I agree/disagree that games need more danger involved, but if there is too much it takes away from the possible fun of other things.
For the agree part: I love to play the Masochist (non-sexual) and love it when something goes wrong and it causes me trouble either then or later on by either losing items/gold, losing xp (this one, not so much...it works I suppose), or just takes away stats. Now, I won't use the "it keeps you on your toe" bullshit, but it does make me take things a little more seriously and it makes me try to concentrate as I go along. In most of the current games I play, I have no need to worry about dying or screwing up since as soon as I am revived/reborn/whatever, everything is fixed with no penalty.
For the disagreeing part: As I said before, I love playing the Masochist so with a weak death penalty I can die as much as I want without worrying about screwing up. Often in games, I'll run into a group of monsters or players and see if I can at least kill one or I'll try some stupid idea that might get me killed just to see if it'll work and I'll usually have a blast at it even if it doesn't work. If there was too much of a penalty/danger to me dying or screwing up, it would lose some of the fun since I'd have to take everything seriously and go with what I know will protect me even if it's lame or boring. Along with all of this, people hate penalty/anything dangerous because they don't want to have to do the same thing over and over again if they keep messing up when they don't have a lot of time on their hands and want to get through some content.
The solution to the problem to allow both sides to be happy? Allow both into the game. The problem with that is the developers will always tend to lean towards one or the other so it will never be equal and it might be far imbalanced.
Thats just for you then. For me just beating them is fun. I don't care about looting them. The motivation is not to loot them but to try to beat them, or to survive being beaten. That is fun for me. When I lose a pvp that was not really fun but losing something would be even worse. The losing alone is enough punishment. I don't need nor want anything more and like meridion said, and I agree with, I feel this is the what the majority are looking for. The action of losing alone is enough of a punishment, nothing more is needed. The act of beating someone is reward enough, nothing more is needed.
You may be right about people not taking it seriously but you know what? That is ok because this is a game, a place a great many people, IMO the majority of people come to relax and not be taken seriously.
Venge Sunsoar
The bar isn't set by the consumers... though one would think it is. The bar is set by those who put the bar up... the publishers. Innovation is being held up by the publishers because they can get away with "just enough", and It's been like that for years. I have heard more complaints about lack of innovation, lack of original content, lack of ( insert any of the hundreds of issues )... and yet here we are... watching games come out with the same lackluster and unpolished clone-stink.
You should be insulted that game publishers are pissing in your face and calling it rain. There is absolutely no excuse for the poor quality that is coming out of the code-factories, and players who are perfectly happy trying to explain away why thing suck rather than show their frustration should be slapped as much as anyone.
You know what I am doing? I have resubscribed to Dark Age of Camelot. That's right... the game is older than my kid, yet I resubbed. Why? Because their support rocks, and the game reminds me of what an MMO could be. The population isn't as good as it used to be, and the game is definitely dated, but for its time is was very innovative and a hell of a lot of fun. I am still having fun with it all these years later.
With all of the advances in both hardware and software... how the hell isn't there a game out by now that can be as exciting and innovative as DAoC was when it released?? It's friggin insulting!!
I will not pay a dime to a game publisher who is going to call me an idiot by expecting me to buy their half assed, pathetic waste of pixels, when I know damned well how much better things could be.
I say that is wrong. Computer game have been around for decades. At first a small market but a growing one. There have been many titles over the years. I still recall getting games on cassette tape for use with my trash computer. The market place has been determined by a couple of decades worth of sales hits and flops. This isn't a new market. They are not holding back beccause they are milking it. It is a game of marketshare and if something innovative would insure a gain in marketshare they woulndn't hesitate in making and selling it.
You want danger? How bout having all the monsters in your xping area easily able to kill you when they're at your level or slightly above? Often when traveling to an area with a party to fight mobs you'll have to sneak your way there. Sneaking spells/potions don't last forever. Sometimes a few minutes, sometimes as a few seconds.
Consequences. You lose 8% of your total xp when you die and enter a 'weakend' state where all your stats are reduced by 70% for 5 minutes or so. Fun?
Oh yeah, theres no corpse run. Nope, you get a free ride home to wherever you set your Homepoint (aka Hearth). Oh but you died during a fight? An nobody in the party can raise you? Guess what, you get to drag your butt back out to wherever they are to try an get back that xp you loss.
One of the pros an cons of the game is also that fact that is pretty much multiplayer required. You have to group for xp. You have to group for missions. You have to group for a hefty portion of the quests. You have to group for Assaults. You have to group for BCNMs. You have to group for coffer key hunting. You have to group for (most) level break quests.
If you like groups, if you like playing with a wide range of players of all different kinds of skilllevels an jobs, not to mention actually playing with (gasp!) japanese players, then you might like this.
If you want to solo, if you hate waiting often at times hours for that healer to login, or for that tank to show up, if you hate having to trek for 20 minutes to an xp spot only to find it overcrowded an have to move to another one, or if you hate having to deal with bad partymembers, an if you hate putting up with abit of prejudice... well... this isn't your game.
I don't play the game anymore (right now). The time requirement is extensive, especially the higher you go.
S'not like theres anything better to play until WAR.
i think i just found my next game cause the way you describe it .gees it must be fun .there must be a lot less bot in there right.aaaarrrg i saw so many bot in silkroad and company that it become a paranoia lol .HHHHEEELLLPPP
I've only been able to find a sense of danger in MUDS, particularly www.armageddon.org. You never know what's going to happen.