Collision Detection

Fateus

Hi all,

Hope everyone is as dissatisfied with MMORPGS as I am so that some change will finally happen :P



Anyway I have two questions. I’ve seen many good reviews or descriptions of the current MMORPGS out there, but I was wondering, which of them have some form of collision detection, even if rudimentary. I point to games likes UO and City of heroes, where you just cant walk through stuff. Don't Know why but this makes a big difference in gameplay for me. Makes it immersive and fun.



The second question is directed towards anyone with any in-depth knowledge to how these games work. Why is it that so many developers choose not to incorporate collision detection into their games? I’ve hazarded many guesses, from too hard to program, to latency making it an issue to exactly know where you are compared to others, to People not really liking the idea (though I can't see why not), but other than theories, does anyone actually any experience with this? Either programmers or someone who’s talked to them?

Thanks

Netspook

Collisions are reduced or left out to prevent players from blocking access for other players.

Fateus

Just make it so it isnt so static that you can pile players on top of each other, then you can just jump over em. Also you can shove em out of the way. Once again City of heroes has tons of people during Hamidon raids, and yet you dont see people getting Stuck from other players.

gpett

Warhammer: Age of Reconing will have collision detection.  I look forward to this change because it will get rid of the silly taunt mechanism that is in games these days.  Also, Warhammer will have no stealth classes.  Yay!  Mythic has also stated reduced crowd control such as mezes and stuns.



I can't wait to play it.

Mwalkin

Originally posted by Netspook

Collisions are reduced or left out to prevent players from blocking access for other players.

Exactly.  Even if they allowed you to move people in your way,  that would just cause a whole new set of problems.  Until you can rely on people to not be jerks, collisions just wouldn't be sensible, and we all know that will never happen.

Fateus

Really? Thats what I heard a logn time ago, but I thought they decided against that, at least thats the impressions I got from all the videos of the game they have. The PVP didnt seem to have any Collision detection. Its actually the main reason I wanted to Play warhammer. Ill look through the videos again. If you find any, please post the link

Vaah

Early EQ1 days they had that in game until it got out of hand with people blocking doorways and dungeon entrances like sol b.

Hoobley_deleted

Age of Conan will have collision.



There is talk of it acting differently in different areas; such as in towns it will be possible to pass other players. I guess either by passing through or nudging them out of the way.



Sorry I don't have a dev quote on that at hand about this.

QSatu

Lineage 2 and GW both have CD.

gpett

Originally posted by Fateus

Really? Thats what I heard a logn time ago, but I thought they decided against that, at least thats the impressions I got from all the videos of the game they have. The PVP didnt seem to have any Collision detection. Its actually the main reason I wanted to Play warhammer. Ill look through the videos again. If you find any, please post the link

Umm just check the War forums on this board.  The first post that is stickied has a ton of videos.  Also you can go to the official site for more videos.

gpett

Originally posted by Vaah

Early EQ1 days they had that in game until it got out of hand with people blocking doorways and dungeon entrances like sol b.

Wow, really? I didn't remember that.  I do remember certain characters (trolls) needing someone to cast an illusion or a shrink spell on them to be able to get in sol a/b.  Their big stay puffed marshmellow man asses were too big to fit in there.  Too funny.

daarco

Originally posted by Netspook

Collisions are reduced or left out to prevent players from blocking access for other players.

In Darkfall thats the reason there is a colliosion detection (or will be if its relesed) And you can do something about a character blocking your way

gpett

So when is it coming out?  When it's done?

Wolfjunkie

Originally posted by gpett

So when is it coming out?  When it's done?

Never. Been in development for what, 6 years? And i belive they've said they was close to open beta for like.. 3 years?

daarco

Darkfall Develop: August 2003- today.....soon 4 years  And since it have mounted combat, naval combat and all other fearures from all other MMO...it can take longer then WoW to develop

 

But the collison detection is a huge part of the DF gameplay. Formations in combat to prevent friendly fire and to puch enemies back. So for me its the first time i will experience it in a MMO. (if its released)

 

 

paulscott

you have no idea how many areana fights in guild wars I saw won because of character to character collision detection.

JPR1985

Originally posted by Hoobley

Age of Conan will have collision.



There is talk of it acting differently in different areas; such as in towns it will be possible to pass other players. I guess either by passing through or nudging them out of the way.



Sorry I don't have a dev quote on that at hand about this.

 

i remember that quote, and yes they are going to have collision, and they even went as far as to say it would be a tactic to prevent people enterting towns to take em over. But there will be a "push" action so there will be a wya to counter it, not sure if it will be strenght vs strenght tho.

MuffinStump

If the decision not to have collision detection is based on possible player abuse then it is simply a cop-out by the developer. Of course, I completely understand leaving a bothersome function behind considering schedules and priorities but let's call it what it is.

I hear a lot of 'that would be impossible' and 'that would take way too much time to design', etc. when it comes to mmorpg development and it always boggles me. I know that the market pushes the genre (simply look at the clones in a similar fashion to the movie industry) but I find it disturbing that the audience/clients/players are so willing to accept mediocrity in all phases of these game worlds. I expect and want breakthroughs.

Sometimes I settle for what I can have but I always acknowledge the lack of depth.

"Well they haven't put in horses because..." "There are only 4 classes because..."

So many excuses for a product you are paying for.

Dreneth

Technically speaking, all MMO's have collision detection.  It's what keeps you from walking through walls.  As someone mentioned earlier, collision detection related to other player's characters is generally left out to avoid players blocking other players from moving easily past.  While it may seem unrealistic, could you imagine trying to get through a doorway if a couple of people are blocking it?

[edit] - had to cut my post short earlier due to a meeting... stupid job...

As for development of features or adding content such as various mounts, that can actually involve a fair amount of effort to stick into a game.  It's not just a matter of making a horse and adding a couple of lines of code, it's a pretty involved process.  The models have to be designed and animated, code has to be written to check the size of the player's character and scale the size of the mount model to match, modification has to be made to the player's movement code to check for a mount and adjust player character animations to "mounted" animation, and movement controls must then be adapted for the mount rather than walking.  The client and server have to be modified to send and receive the additional data for mounts and their behavior, and a system to deliver the mounts to players must be devised.  The UI must be adapted to contain mount data, and a bunch of other things must be considered as well.  Oh... and don't forget testing it, and then introduction to live servers and monitoring the changes in a live environment, ready to jump on any unexpected bugs.

This is a very high level overview of the process, and does not contain details for all of the work involved.  Each of these steps takes a fair amount of time, and could potentially screw up a lot of other game systems if not done carefully and well.  This can have a pretty decent impact on a development schedule, and budget, and unfortunately interesting or desired features end up getting cut out due to a list of higher priorities.  Whether or not the dev priority list matches the players preferred priorities usually isn't known until changes like these go live.

I hope this makes sense... posting from work, and it's a little busy hear today.

MuffinStump

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Originally posted by Dreneth
Technically speaking, all MMO's have collision detection. It's what keeps you from walking through walls. As someone mentioned earlier, collision detection related to other player's characters is generally left out to avoid players blocking other players from moving easily past. While it may seem unrealistic, could you imagine trying to get through a doorway if a couple of people are blocking it?

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Not to harp on this issue but yes..I can see a variety of ways to get through a doorway while blocked.

A slow motion effect of 'pushing through' while in a city...a port command...kick/shove allowed every few minutes...simply no collision within city limits...an emote that forces some movement 'Make way!'...hell, perhaps even an AI that allows for a competent police force to move them if they are belligerent. It is their job to find a way for aspects like this to work if they wish to have a more vibrant, living world. You give up 'realism' in order to have 'realism' where it is most important.

I suppose for me it comes down to a vital aspect of battle. A shield block should actually block. A phalanx should be an option and holding a wedge point in the terrain or yes, even a doorway, should have an advantage (assuming you have an opposing force that wishes to gain quick access).

Ah well, I guess I am harping.

Dreneth

Originally posted by MuffinStump


 
 
Not to harp on this issue but yes..I can see a variety of ways to get through a doorway while blocked.
A slow motion effect of 'pushing through' while in a city...a port command...kick/shove allowed every few minutes...simply no collision within city limits...an emote that forces some movement 'Make way!'...hell, perhaps even an AI that allows for a competent police force to move them if they are belligerent. It is their job to find a way for aspects like this to work if they wish to have a more vibrant, living world. You give up 'realism' in order to have 'realism' where it is most important.
I suppose for me it comes down to a vital aspect of battle. A shield block should actually block. A phalanx should be an option and holding a wedge point in the terrain or yes, even a doorway, should have an advantage (assuming you have an opposing force that wishes to gain quick access).
Ah well, I guess I am harping.

I added more to my other post... as you were replying... sorry bout that (at work and it's a little crazy today... I am trying as hard as I can to slack)

I have played games with the "push" feature... multiplayer, but not massively so, like Wolfenstien: Enemy Territory.  The push feature usually ends up used for griefing.  And, blocking player passage can also be used for griefing.  I can certainly understand your point regarding realism however.  I see no reason why players from opposing realms/factions shouldn't be able to block, as it would make sense to be able to press back an attack from an opposing force.  And for all intents and purposes, it's really not that difficult to code into a game.  Pretty much just adding a check to see if the player you've collided with is friend of foe, and either blocking or allowing passage based on that variable.

CleffyII

Ragnarok Online 2 will also have character collision.

Dreneth

I am definitely interested to see how well full character collision works.  I would be concerned with carelessness and griefing on the part of players, but if it works well, it would definitely be a fair bit more realistic.

CleffyII

There is always dropping the characters into an area option, that way even if someone is standing on an entrance, the character wouldn't be blocked.  Also there is the multiple load spots options.  These 2 together should make close to 100 players needed to block an entrance if not more.

Dreneth

That would take care zoning issues... but a doorway or narrow pathway might pose a problem... unless people are going to suddenly get flung over a crowd to get by, or phase through a wall. 

CleffyII

Its bad design to make hallways/doors in a mmorpg not wide enough for atleast 5 people across of 3 people high.