As noted before, most games start out high, and slowly drop as time moves forward. I attribute the intial high ratings to the fans and people who really love the game, they quickly jump in (long before reaching even the mid-game) and rate the game with mostly favorable scores.
As time moves on, some folks complete more of the content, become a bit more jaded, and decide they are ready to rate the game. So the marks start to drop somewhat, as this group is taking a bit more realistic look at the game w/o the Rose Colored glasses.
Finally we get to the point where the trolls (or people who just grow to hate the game0 get fed up and start logging on to give the game lots of really low marks....which drags the averages down to the point where almost all the major games are rated with in a couple of a 10's of a point of each other.
If we go by current sales, LotRO appears to be number one for the past month. Of course, if we go on sales/subs WOW wins the overall award for the year.
Lots of ways to rate a game....and the overall rating is probably the least useful standard to go by.
Me, I'm currently playing LotRO because its fun and keeping me busy until WAR or AOC come out later this year.... and I'll post my rating here once I reach the end game in the next few months.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
IMO its a good game and fun game, stop trying to pick faults in it and let people try it out for themselves. People who usually talk all this crap think they know all about mmo games but infact they know jackshit.
Well said.
The game is too new, not everyone is level 50. Most people make it to level 15 and give up. The game doesnt even really start till about level 20ish. Epic Quests, Good drops, Tons of Traits to quest for. Wait till you start raiding, we had about 18 people in PvMP raiding, and you wanna talk about fun. It was pure chaos. Fighting alongside Giant Trolls, going agaist fire breathing Drakes for questing in the snowy mountains. Oh yeah Turbine did a Kick Butt job on the Bears, this has to be one of the best mmorpg that gotten the Bears Right! Also what was pretty wild is that the Ents were throwing bee hives at us and mixed with the excellent sound. FANTASTIC!
If you play the game to at least level 40 and still think the game sucks, well why did you even hang around to level 40?
People claim they leveled to 30 in Beta and it just didnt hold my ineterest. Let me see, BETA doesnt count. Its a BETA for a reason.
Anyways,
I am now level 29 on the game and its only getting better. I went to Rivendell and saw a level 50, of course the Gear looked great! Next time I am there I will get a pic.
But to the people that enjoy the game, keep going!
*Most* people make it L15 and give up? What does this say about the game? Speaks volumes to me.
Why do they give up do you think? It sure 'aint because the game is too tricky eh? Must be utter and complete boredom right? Most people you say...? lol
So... let me get this right... you are saying that people who leave too early, in your view, to have made an opinion are not worth listening too, a L30s from open beta player's opinion what this game is isnt worth listening too, and L40s who say that it still is as bad at that level are dismissed out of hand...
Tell me... *who* exactly has an opinion that is valid to you? Those that agree with you? lol
Hooray for the fanbois!
Personal anecdotes are not statics
Show us a serius graph with the actual data, What percentage of the population is leaving, at what level and why?, also a comparision with the growing population, and the percentage of people that pretend to stay in game more than a month... Show us something serius otherwise just shut up!.
I am confused why you equate sales with a good game?
Mass public opinion is rarely a reliable barometer of quality... or do you like everything thats popular?
I am confused as to why you would equate good sales with a bad game. I guess you think Vanguard or Dark and light should have a million subscribers.
I wasnt aware that I did.
Can you please show me where I did?
It's probably a bad thing to try and guess what people think who you don't know, on an assumed point.
btw, at it's heart VG is actually better as a 'game' then LotR, it's the performance issues and bugs that ruin it imo.
What is at the heart of VG ? I played it, talk about a lack of coherent design thrown together mess. The vision as so many talk about, doesnt exist, its thrown together.
The features that should hvae been there, meaningful diplomacy / AES to name a couple, had they been in the game and working I could see your point. other than that Vanguard has nothing new at all.
Not sure what you mean better as a game, ? if you mean game is something u play to have fun, then no vanguard is not better as a game.
LOTRO does, it has a story, one that takes you from lvl 1 - 50. Might not be for everyone, but its there and it something not all MMOs have.
I dont play LOTR but I am glad its #1. It shows ppl care more about playability of a game than some over hyped crap like Vanguard. Hope rest of industries learn from this and dont ever come out with half a$$ crap like Vanguard did.
Mass public opinion is rarely a reliable barometer of quality... or do you like everything thats popular?
Not quite as rare as you'd like to think (then again, that wouldn't suit your agenda, now would it?). The Lord of the Rings books themselves are highly popular, and are quality work. Stephen King is another example of an author with popular appeal and quality work. Let's just go through a rather long list then shall we? Shakespeare, the paintings of Michelangelo, the classical works of Mozart and Beethoven, Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings Movies, Batman Returns, the list goes on.....
I'm sorry, vesavius, that you have misanthropic tendancies, that you hate the masses. It must be rather lonely. But sometimes the masses are right, and sometimes they know quality (as the list above shows) when they see it. It's too bad your hatred won't let you enjoy it.
(p.s., of course I expect you to try to derail this argument by saying I'm equating LOTRO to Shakespeare--which I'm not. )
I have no agenda, except an open and honest discussion about modern gaming, of which LotR is a sad testament to. Just to be clear.
Also, before you accuse anyone of being 'misanthropic', make sure you know them more then a few posts in a gaming forum. Lonely? er.. why would I be lonely? My friends, wife, and extended family make sure that never happens...Why the personal insults on such a base level? Just to attack me in order to cheapen my view? Very bad form, and very weak debate.
You obviusly think that anyone who disagrees with you is broken in some way, or that must be angry... This is extremely arrogant, as if 'normal' people *must* share your point of view. Where have I seemed angry in this, or any thread? Please feel free to quote me below.
I promise you, for evey 1 quality piece of popular culture, I can give you at least 10 pieces of utter crap that are at least as, or more, popular due to marketing and hype. You have chosen rare and outstanding works to prove a silly point.
I have agreed that 'sometimes' quality makes it into the public arena, so I don't know why you are being so personally vindictive here, but i also stated that it happens rarely. This is a true statement. You really need me to list popular trash writers, musicians, and film directors that that sell millions to a hyped up, stupified, undemanding audience? Your list may be 'rather long', but I bet my list outnumbers yours, like I say, at least 10:1 if I want it to.
Just because Shakespeare, or whoever, is considered classic and worthy, it dosent make them modern popular media anyhow, or at least not in their original form. Most for instance wouldnt know the story of 'The Taming of the Shrew' without '10 Things I Hate About You', which speaks volumes and supports my point. Most wouldnt recognise a Michelangelo piece if you showed it to them, unless it had been featured in the plot of Buffy that week.
If you are not comparing LotRO to these works, then why mention them...? What relevance do they have except to underline the rare cases in which challenging quality works make it into the public domain. Believe me when I say LotR is *not* one of these rare cases. You honestly think this game trades on anymore then a popular IP, simplistic non challenging play, and pretty environmental visuals? You are hilarious.
Derail the tread? Oops, seems like you already have...
btw, Stephen King is actually quite a poor writer in a number of ways, though of course he is very popular... His characterisations and core ideas are often good enough, though his pacing and plotting is often terrible. I would have thought you could have presented a better example then this of your 'point'.
I strongly disagree with you:
Well, of course you are allowed to.
First: You call LOTRO a sad statement of "modern gamming", and also in previus post your judgment tell us that Vanguard is a better game. im letting out the whole beta retail issue which btw i think is a ethic issue more than anything, i want to see Toyota selling Camrys without brakes... o wait we are working on it, wait for the 10th patch.
Yep, I stand by that statement. LotR is a superficial, frothy, bubblegum game that definitly points in a very real direction that MMORPGs will now head.
But... about Vangaurd... I actually said 'at it's heart'... Quote me correctly before you launch into your worn out VG 'jokes'? It helps me take your posting seriously...
I am more then aware of VG's issues, and I don't defend them or the state in which it was bought to market.
Im not a certified "expert" about gamming and digital arts but. Im working towards it (reading and researching), the gap quality betewn vanguard and LOTRO is just Huge, starting by Vanguard`s unidbody desgin.
ok... I think, especially for a professed student, it is probably a good idea to understand the original source that you are railing against before you jump to half arsed responses, based on what you *wanted* me to say rather then what I *did* say. Go on... take some time to reread what I have written with a clear head. It's ok... I will be here waiting for you when you are ready.
Vanguard chars design is nothing but the same body diferent scales and same animations!!, the Wulan look just lame.. a dude with a Wolf head.. give me a break. not cool... (at least not cool as do it in vanguard). Theres a lot of thecnical, artistic and design issues about this game i wont go on them just because IT would take to long, and i think they are pretty much obvius for people with common sense.
Ahh.. ok... still banging on that drum? To risk repeating myself... You are getting your knickers in a twist over the fact that someone dared suggest that at it's heart VG was a better game then LotRO, as it blatantly is. I openly admit it has many flaws and issues that make it a pretty poor offering. I have no problems saying that. I'm not a VG fanboi or anything.
A side note about Vanguard: Brad Mcquaid spend the last 5 years doing a game that was released 10 years ago, that "vision" - "core gammer" meaningfull travell bullshit... its just another way of saying i dont have a freaking idea of how the industry is evolving, what its the real purpose of my game other than beeing killing the same freaking mob over and over again. And what about the Vanguard "lore" if you can call it like that.. a high scholl studen in a writting workshop comes out with better ideas.
Erm... why are you turning this into a full fledged rant about VG..? Boy, you really hate that game eh? I only made a side comment that mentioned the game, it is hardly at the heart of my opinion about LotR. Even without VG ever being being created, I would still consider LotRO to be a superficial, brain dead, mmorpg lite game for the hyped up stupified special eds out there.
You don't have to be mad at VG for the fact that I consider LotRO to be yet another nail in the coffin of challenging, creative, inspired gaming, all soon to be dead in favour of MMORPGs that trade on popular IPs, huge advertising budgets, and basic dumbed down simplisitic game play that my 8 year old niece can handle. All optimised to efficiently sell a lot of units.
Let me put an example, what is a Core Gammer?... not one single Brad Mcquaid post have define that, i mean how do you produce a 10million dollars game with out knowing who is aimed for? .Most pople guess: it is for the "Hard core" player the one with the inhuman hability to stay 10 hrs in a row in an alienation state (grindding). neverthless mcquaid has concur in a major flip flop trying to define what he should define 5 years ago.
/sigh... Are you gonna just blather and froth about VG all night, or are you actually gonna get to a point? No offense and all that, but this is really getting a bit boring...
In the other hand LOTRO and WOW are very clear what they want, who they want and were they are going with the game. Example: regular barrens chat : " OMFG lotro dont have a wizzard class wtf freaking turbine noobs.. " Noobs? not really they know where to aim for, they have a presice market.
Great community you have going there!
Your arrogance in every single post is lacking of the essential a point to ilustrate us.. How and Why is LOTRO so lame.. according to you. That give me the impression that you are just a Generic POSER.
hehe why the capitols on POSER? Very silly. And arrogant? I didnt think you would sink to personal insults so quickly based on the start of your post, with you being an educated man and all.
I have posted numerous times on why I think this game is so lame. I feel I have been very very clear and very very concise. Look around this forum if you care so much.
Please let me know how vanguard offers a superior intellectual "challenge" over LOTRO or WOW? I think that WOW was a huge stepp in the right direction after everquest, and now i think that LOTRO is another stepp in the same way... people who call lotro a WOW clone are making a simplistic analisys.
Analysis.
hehe please get off the VG thing, I don't honestly care if that game lives or dies, I just believe that at it's heart it's a better game with more 'soul', integrity, and inspiration then LotRO. TBH, I don't really care if you see it the same way or not... It's not like either of us actually plays it...
But... wow... I really hit a button with you by daring to mention VG eh?
I dont hear people saying F.E.A.R copy Half LIfe and Half life first copy Doom right? its because there are some game mechanics that just works, and is the best to respect that, inovation can come in a more sutile way, like the mere fact that you level up by questing, LOTRO grinding is useless.
Erm... if you say so... *looks around confused*... Is this part of some bigger point, or just a random stream of your favourite rants? Really... you are gonna have to get a little more focused then this is you are gonna be writing papers...
Blizzard realise that in BC and they reduced the grindding a lot, theres a lot of it i know but you can go from 60 to 70 with tons of quest, compared to original WoW 50 to 60. Those are small changes that means a lot.
What has this got to do with anything?
About popular culture I do agree that most of the mainstrem is lacking of intellectual deep, nevertheless most of those plastic artist have a very professional team behind.
Ahh! we have an agreement?? I must admit, you got me, I never saw that one coming....
In a technicall point of view they have outstanding production you cant denny that. Even the britney spirs dancers and coreographers.. you can hate them, dislike them... but you cant say they dont know what they are doing.
Sure, they know what they are doing, in the same way that Turbine knows what it is doing...
Offering mass marketed lowest common denominator tripe to those too lazy to find or invest in the real thing.
First: You call LOTRO a sad statement of "modern gamming", and also in previus post your judgment tell us that Vanguard is a better game. im letting out the whole beta retail issue which btw i think is a ethic issue more than anything, i want to see Toyota selling Camrys without brakes... o wait we are working on it, wait for the 10th patch.
Yep, I stand by that statement. LotR is a superficial, frothy, bubblegum game that definitly points in a very real direction that MMORPGs will now head.
But... about Vangaurd... I actually said 'at it's heart'... Quote me correctly before you launch into your worn out VG 'jokes'? It helps me take your posting seriously...
I am more then aware of VG's issues, and I don't defend them or the state in which it was bought to market.
Im not a certified "expert" about gamming and digital arts but. Im working towards it (reading and researching), the gap quality betewn vanguard and LOTRO is just Huge, starting by Vanguard`s unidbody desgin.
ok... I think, especially for a professed student, it is probably a good idea to understand the original source that you are railing against before you jump to half arsed responses, based on what you *wanted* me to say rather then what I *did* say. Go on... take some time to reread what I have written with a clear head. It's ok... I will be here waiting for you when you are ready.
Vanguard chars design is nothing but the same body diferent scales and same animations!!, the Wulan look just lame.. a dude with a Wolf head.. give me a break. not cool... (at least not cool as do it in vanguard). Theres a lot of thecnical, artistic and design issues about this game i wont go on them just because IT would take to long, and i think they are pretty much obvius for people with common sense.
Ahh.. ok... still banging on that drum? To risk repeating myself... You are getting your knickers in a twist over the fact that someone dared suggest that at it's heart VG was a better game then LotRO, as it blatantly is. I openly admit it has many flaws and issues that make it a pretty poor offering. I have no problems saying that. I'm not a VG fanboi or anything.
A side note about Vanguard: Brad Mcquaid spend the last 5 years doing a game that was released 10 years ago, that "vision" - "core gammer" meaningfull travell bullshit... its just another way of saying i dont have a freaking idea of how the industry is evolving, what its the real purpose of my game other than beeing killing the same freaking mob over and over again. And what about the Vanguard "lore" if you can call it like that.. a high scholl studen in a writting workshop comes out with better ideas.
Erm... why are you turning this into a full fledged rant about VG..? Boy, you really hate that game eh? I only made a side comment that mentioned the game, it is hardly at the heart of my opinion about LotR. Even without VG ever being being created, I would still consider LotRO to be a superficial, brain dead, mmorpg lite game for the hyped up stupified special eds out there.
You don't have to be mad at VG for the fact that I consider LotRO to be yet another nail in the coffin of challenging, creative, inspired gaming, all soon to be dead in favour of MMORPGs that trade on popular IPs, huge advertising budgets, and basic dumbed down simplisitic game play that my 8 year old niece can handle. All optimised to efficiently sell a lot of units.
Let me put an example, what is a Core Gammer?... not one single Brad Mcquaid post have define that, i mean how do you produce a 10million dollars game with out knowing who is aimed for? .Most pople guess: it is for the "Hard core" player the one with the inhuman hability to stay 10 hrs in a row in an alienation state (grindding). neverthless mcquaid has concur in a major flip flop trying to define what he should define 5 years ago.
/sigh... Are you gonna just blather and froth about VG all night, or are you actually gonna get to a point? No offense and all that, but this is really getting a bit boring...
In the other hand LOTRO and WOW are very clear what they want, who they want and were they are going with the game. Example: regular barrens chat : " OMFG lotro dont have a wizzard class wtf freaking turbine noobs.. " Noobs? not really they know where to aim for, they have a presice market.
Great community you have going there!
Your arrogance in every single post is lacking of the essential a point to ilustrate us.. How and Why is LOTRO so lame.. according to you. That give me the impression that you are just a Generic POSER.
hehe why the capitols on POSER? Very silly. And arrogant? I didnt think you would sink to personal insults so quickly based on the start of your post, with you being an educated man and all.
I have posted numerous times on why I think this game is so lame. I feel I have been very very clear and very very concise. Look around this forum if you care so much.
Please let me know how vanguard offers a superior intellectual "challenge" over LOTRO or WOW? I think that WOW was a huge stepp in the right direction after everquest, and now i think that LOTRO is another stepp in the same way... people who call lotro a WOW clone are making a simplistic analisys.
Analysis.
hehe please get off the VG thing, I don't honestly care if that game lives or dies, I just believe that at it's heart it's a better game with more 'soul', integrity, and inspiration then LotRO. TBH, I don't really care if you see it the same way or not... It's not like either of us actually plays it...
But... wow... I really hit a button with you by daring to mention VG eh?
I dont hear people saying F.E.A.R copy Half LIfe and Half life first copy Doom right? its because there are some game mechanics that just works, and is the best to respect that, inovation can come in a more sutile way, like the mere fact that you level up by questing, LOTRO grinding is useless.
Erm... if you say so... *looks around confused*... Is this part of some bigger point, or just a random stream of your favourite rants? Really... you are gonna have to get a little more focused then this is you are gonna be writing papers...
Blizzard realise that in BC and they reduced the grindding a lot, theres a lot of it i know but you can go from 60 to 70 with tons of quest, compared to original WoW 50 to 60. Those are small changes that means a lot.
What has this got to do with anything?
About popular culture I do agree that most of the mainstrem is lacking of intellectual deep, nevertheless most of those plastic artist have a very professional team behind.
Ahh! we have an agreement?? I must admit, you got me, I never saw that one coming....
In a technicall point of view they have outstanding production you cant denny that. Even the britney spirs dancers and coreographers.. you can hate them, dislike them... but you cant say they dont know what they are doing.
Sure, they know what they are doing, in the same way that Turbine knows what it is doing...
Offering mass marketed lowest common denominator tripe to those too lazy to find or invest in the real thing.
FIRtS i didnt insult you, poser is not an insult its just a way of beeing.
I have read your opinions about why LOTRO sucks so much, nevertheless no one solid argument other than "personal preferences" masked as arguments.
About the whole Vanguard thing its just that represents a way of making games that its based in a superficial "deep gamming experience" than turns to be in an anielation sinking time game. Something that i understand you are against off. And it would be nice to hear some argumentation about why is vanguard best at "hearth" especially wich such a lame lore.
The off topics arguments you dismiss are examples of sutile and smart game design, that in some way or another can be related to LOTRO, and why its has been succesfull.
At the end this is gamming i have beeing arround it for a long, lets face it: gamming its far for beeing "intellectual or conceptual challenging", Im a cinema fan, and i question you what would be the Stanley Kubrick of gamming? in a sense of having a cultural message or specific artistic expresion... there is none. What would be that you call the real thing? if you want intellectual challenge play chess. the problem here is what is that mmorpg that its a real challenge, but no because of the amount of mindless hours you need to fully achieve a fully game experience? im just intuiting what you find "challenging" as you havent take the time for fully descrive whats challenging for you.
Again and again i find adjectives: lowest, lazy, non challenging, boring etc... but not even one single non pedant argument to sustent your judgment. I find your writting a constant disqualification of what you dont like, understand or apeal to your miraclous good taste. Thats not argumentation thats obstination. A passive agressive way to call idiots everyone else that dont concur with you.
notes. I never said i was about to be a gamming journalist, Im working on a digital arts master which means Im working towards beeing in a game studio.
I fail to understand why people lurk in a forum of a game they don't like just to point to people and say "Why do you like this game? It sucks. You're wrong to like this game." I mean, sure, play it. Form an opinion. Don't like it? Post that you don't like it and why. Then move on. Why stick around to tell people that their opinion is wrong, and that yours is the only correct one? Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but some of this behavior is borderline stalking in a way. It's like someone going to McDonald's for the first time, having a hamburger, not liking it, and then standing outside the restaurant for a month telling everyone else that they are wrong for liking a Big Mac.
As far as why this game is number one now, it struck a chord with enough gamers that like it. For now. The gaming industry is fickle. Turbine has a lot of work ahead of them to retain those that have made it #1. It can easily retain its position for the foreseeable future, or could be replaced in a month or two by the 'next big thing.' If Turbine plays their cards right, it will be a continuing success, as it has a lot more positives at launch than negatives in the majority of opinions on the game. If they really go for broke, they'll even address some of the shortcomings that have been posted about by those that don't currently like the game, and give those people a reason to revisit the game in the future.
But none of that has happened yet, of course, so we'll have to see which direction the game takes. For now, it is number one because, for now, enough people like it to put it there.
I fail to understand why people lurk in a forum of a game they don't like just to point to people and say "Why do you like this game? It sucks. You're wrong to like this game." I mean, sure, play it. Form an opinion. Don't like it? Post that you don't like it and why. Then move on. Why stick around to tell people that their opinion is wrong, and that yours is the only correct one? Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but some of this behavior is borderline stalking in a way. It's like someone going to McDonald's for the first time, having a hamburger, not liking it, and then standing outside the restaurant for a month telling everyone else that they are wrong for liking a Big Mac. As far as why this game is number one now, it struck a chord with enough gamers that like it. For now. The gaming industry is fickle. Turbine has a lot of work ahead of them to retain those that have made it #1. It can easily retain its position for the foreseeable future, or could be replaced in a month or two by the 'next big thing.' If Turbine plays their cards right, it will be a continuing success, as it has a lot more positives at launch than negatives in the majority of opinions on the game. If they really go for broke, they'll even address some of the shortcomings that have been posted about by those that don't currently like the game, and give those people a reason to revisit the game in the future. But none of that has happened yet, of course, so we'll have to see which direction the game takes. For now, it is number one because, for now, enough people like it to put it there.
Don't you understand? The MMO that the above stated people are playing is "WWW.MMORPG.COM" and we are playing it with them every time we respond to one of their posts.
LotRO being in the number one spot is really self explanatory. Doesn't take a rocket scientist, brain surgeon or a sheep herder to figure that one out. A lot of people are really enjoying the game.
Time, like you said, will be the true test. At this point I have a lot of faith in Turbine, and am looking forward to the future of LotRO. As I've said before, I think this game will get nothing but better.
Comments
As time moves on, some folks complete more of the content, become a bit more jaded, and decide they are ready to rate the game. So the marks start to drop somewhat, as this group is taking a bit more realistic look at the game w/o the Rose Colored glasses.
Finally we get to the point where the trolls (or people who just grow to hate the game0 get fed up and start logging on to give the game lots of really low marks....which drags the averages down to the point where almost all the major games are rated with in a couple of a 10's of a point of each other.
If we go by current sales, LotRO appears to be number one for the past month. Of course, if we go on sales/subs WOW wins the overall award for the year.
Lots of ways to rate a game....and the overall rating is probably the least useful standard to go by.
Me, I'm currently playing LotRO because its fun and keeping me busy until WAR or AOC come out later this year.... and I'll post my rating here once I reach the end game in the next few months.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well said.
The game is too new, not everyone is level 50. Most people make it to level 15 and give up. The game doesnt even really start till about level 20ish. Epic Quests, Good drops, Tons of Traits to quest for. Wait till you start raiding, we had about 18 people in PvMP raiding, and you wanna talk about fun. It was pure chaos. Fighting alongside Giant Trolls, going agaist fire breathing Drakes for questing in the snowy mountains. Oh yeah Turbine did a Kick Butt job on the Bears, this has to be one of the best mmorpg that gotten the Bears Right! Also what was pretty wild is that the Ents were throwing bee hives at us and mixed with the excellent sound. FANTASTIC!
If you play the game to at least level 40 and still think the game sucks, well why did you even hang around to level 40?
People claim they leveled to 30 in Beta and it just didnt hold my ineterest. Let me see, BETA doesnt count. Its a BETA for a reason.
Anyways,
I am now level 29 on the game and its only getting better. I went to Rivendell and saw a level 50, of course the Gear looked great! Next time I am there I will get a pic.
But to the people that enjoy the game, keep going!
*Most* people make it L15 and give up? What does this say about the game? Speaks volumes to me.
Why do they give up do you think? It sure 'aint because the game is too tricky eh? Must be utter and complete boredom right? Most people you say...? lol
So... let me get this right... you are saying that people who leave too early, in your view, to have made an opinion are not worth listening too, a L30s from open beta player's opinion what this game is isnt worth listening too, and L40s who say that it still is as bad at that level are dismissed out of hand...
Tell me... *who* exactly has an opinion that is valid to you? Those that agree with you? lol
Hooray for the fanbois!
Personal anecdotes are not statics
Show us a serius graph with the actual data, What percentage of the population is leaving, at what level and why?, also a comparision with the growing population, and the percentage of people that pretend to stay in game more than a month... Show us something serius otherwise just shut up!.
I am confused why you equate sales with a good game?
Mass public opinion is rarely a reliable barometer of quality... or do you like everything thats popular?
I am confused as to why you would equate good sales with a bad game. I guess you think Vanguard or Dark and light should have a million subscribers.I wasnt aware that I did.
Can you please show me where I did?
It's probably a bad thing to try and guess what people think who you don't know, on an assumed point.
btw, at it's heart VG is actually better as a 'game' then LotR, it's the performance issues and bugs that ruin it imo.
What is at the heart of VG ? I played it, talk about a lack of coherent design thrown together mess. The vision as so many talk about, doesnt exist, its thrown together.
The features that should hvae been there, meaningful diplomacy / AES to name a couple, had they been in the game and working I could see your point. other than that Vanguard has nothing new at all.
Not sure what you mean better as a game, ? if you mean game is something u play to have fun, then no vanguard is not better as a game.
LOTRO does, it has a story, one that takes you from lvl 1 - 50. Might not be for everyone, but its there and it something not all MMOs have.
-Allegria
Mass public opinion is rarely a reliable barometer of quality... or do you like everything thats popular?
Not quite as rare as you'd like to think (then again, that wouldn't suit your agenda, now would it?). The Lord of the Rings books themselves are highly popular, and are quality work. Stephen King is another example of an author with popular appeal and quality work. Let's just go through a rather long list then shall we? Shakespeare, the paintings of Michelangelo, the classical works of Mozart and Beethoven, Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings Movies, Batman Returns, the list goes on.....
I'm sorry, vesavius, that you have misanthropic tendancies, that you hate the masses. It must be rather lonely. But sometimes the masses are right, and sometimes they know quality (as the list above shows) when they see it. It's too bad your hatred won't let you enjoy it.
(p.s., of course I expect you to try to derail this argument by saying I'm equating LOTRO to Shakespeare--which I'm not. )
I have no agenda, except an open and honest discussion about modern gaming, of which LotR is a sad testament to. Just to be clear.
Also, before you accuse anyone of being 'misanthropic', make sure you know them more then a few posts in a gaming forum. Lonely? er.. why would I be lonely? My friends, wife, and extended family make sure that never happens...Why the personal insults on such a base level? Just to attack me in order to cheapen my view? Very bad form, and very weak debate.
You obviusly think that anyone who disagrees with you is broken in some way, or that must be angry... This is extremely arrogant, as if 'normal' people *must* share your point of view. Where have I seemed angry in this, or any thread? Please feel free to quote me below.
I promise you, for evey 1 quality piece of popular culture, I can give you at least 10 pieces of utter crap that are at least as, or more, popular due to marketing and hype. You have chosen rare and outstanding works to prove a silly point.
I have agreed that 'sometimes' quality makes it into the public arena, so I don't know why you are being so personally vindictive here, but i also stated that it happens rarely. This is a true statement. You really need me to list popular trash writers, musicians, and film directors that that sell millions to a hyped up, stupified, undemanding audience? Your list may be 'rather long', but I bet my list outnumbers yours, like I say, at least 10:1 if I want it to.
Just because Shakespeare, or whoever, is considered classic and worthy, it dosent make them modern popular media anyhow, or at least not in their original form. Most for instance wouldnt know the story of 'The Taming of the Shrew' without '10 Things I Hate About You', which speaks volumes and supports my point. Most wouldnt recognise a Michelangelo piece if you showed it to them, unless it had been featured in the plot of Buffy that week.
If you are not comparing LotRO to these works, then why mention them...? What relevance do they have except to underline the rare cases in which challenging quality works make it into the public domain. Believe me when I say LotR is *not* one of these rare cases. You honestly think this game trades on anymore then a popular IP, simplistic non challenging play, and pretty environmental visuals? You are hilarious.
Derail the tread? Oops, seems like you already have...
btw, Stephen King is actually quite a poor writer in a number of ways, though of course he is very popular... His characterisations and core ideas are often good enough, though his pacing and plotting is often terrible. I would have thought you could have presented a better example then this of your 'point'.
I strongly disagree with you:
Well, of course you are allowed to.
First: You call LOTRO a sad statement of "modern gamming", and also in previus post your judgment tell us that Vanguard is a better game. im letting out the whole beta retail issue which btw i think is a ethic issue more than anything, i want to see Toyota selling Camrys without brakes... o wait we are working on it, wait for the 10th patch.
Yep, I stand by that statement. LotR is a superficial, frothy, bubblegum game that definitly points in a very real direction that MMORPGs will now head.
But... about Vangaurd... I actually said 'at it's heart'... Quote me correctly before you launch into your worn out VG 'jokes'? It helps me take your posting seriously...
I am more then aware of VG's issues, and I don't defend them or the state in which it was bought to market.
Im not a certified "expert" about gamming and digital arts but. Im working towards it (reading and researching), the gap quality betewn vanguard and LOTRO is just Huge, starting by Vanguard`s unidbody desgin.
ok... I think, especially for a professed student, it is probably a good idea to understand the original source that you are railing against before you jump to half arsed responses, based on what you *wanted* me to say rather then what I *did* say. Go on... take some time to reread what I have written with a clear head. It's ok... I will be here waiting for you when you are ready.
Vanguard chars design is nothing but the same body diferent scales and same animations!!, the Wulan look just lame.. a dude with a Wolf head.. give me a break. not cool... (at least not cool as do it in vanguard). Theres a lot of thecnical, artistic and design issues about this game i wont go on them just because IT would take to long, and i think they are pretty much obvius for people with common sense.
Ahh.. ok... still banging on that drum? To risk repeating myself... You are getting your knickers in a twist over the fact that someone dared suggest that at it's heart VG was a better game then LotRO, as it blatantly is. I openly admit it has many flaws and issues that make it a pretty poor offering. I have no problems saying that. I'm not a VG fanboi or anything.
A side note about Vanguard: Brad Mcquaid spend the last 5 years doing a game that was released 10 years ago, that "vision" - "core gammer" meaningfull travell bullshit... its just another way of saying i dont have a freaking idea of how the industry is evolving, what its the real purpose of my game other than beeing killing the same freaking mob over and over again. And what about the Vanguard "lore" if you can call it like that.. a high scholl studen in a writting workshop comes out with better ideas.
Erm... why are you turning this into a full fledged rant about VG..? Boy, you really hate that game eh? I only made a side comment that mentioned the game, it is hardly at the heart of my opinion about LotR. Even without VG ever being being created, I would still consider LotRO to be a superficial, brain dead, mmorpg lite game for the hyped up stupified special eds out there.
You don't have to be mad at VG for the fact that I consider LotRO to be yet another nail in the coffin of challenging, creative, inspired gaming, all soon to be dead in favour of MMORPGs that trade on popular IPs, huge advertising budgets, and basic dumbed down simplisitic game play that my 8 year old niece can handle. All optimised to efficiently sell a lot of units.
Let me put an example, what is a Core Gammer?... not one single Brad Mcquaid post have define that, i mean how do you produce a 10million dollars game with out knowing who is aimed for? .Most pople guess: it is for the "Hard core" player the one with the inhuman hability to stay 10 hrs in a row in an alienation state (grindding). neverthless mcquaid has concur in a major flip flop trying to define what he should define 5 years ago.
/sigh... Are you gonna just blather and froth about VG all night, or are you actually gonna get to a point? No offense and all that, but this is really getting a bit boring...
In the other hand LOTRO and WOW are very clear what they want, who they want and were they are going with the game. Example: regular barrens chat : " OMFG lotro dont have a wizzard class wtf freaking turbine noobs.. " Noobs? not really they know where to aim for, they have a presice market.
Great community you have going there!
Your arrogance in every single post is lacking of the essential a point to ilustrate us.. How and Why is LOTRO so lame.. according to you. That give me the impression that you are just a Generic POSER.
hehe why the capitols on POSER? Very silly. And arrogant? I didnt think you would sink to personal insults so quickly based on the start of your post, with you being an educated man and all.
I have posted numerous times on why I think this game is so lame. I feel I have been very very clear and very very concise. Look around this forum if you care so much.
Please let me know how vanguard offers a superior intellectual "challenge" over LOTRO or WOW? I think that WOW was a huge stepp in the right direction after everquest, and now i think that LOTRO is another stepp in the same way... people who call lotro a WOW clone are making a simplistic analisys.
Analysis.
hehe please get off the VG thing, I don't honestly care if that game lives or dies, I just believe that at it's heart it's a better game with more 'soul', integrity, and inspiration then LotRO. TBH, I don't really care if you see it the same way or not... It's not like either of us actually plays it...
But... wow... I really hit a button with you by daring to mention VG eh?
I dont hear people saying F.E.A.R copy Half LIfe and Half life first copy Doom right? its because there are some game mechanics that just works, and is the best to respect that, inovation can come in a more sutile way, like the mere fact that you level up by questing, LOTRO grinding is useless.
Erm... if you say so... *looks around confused*... Is this part of some bigger point, or just a random stream of your favourite rants? Really... you are gonna have to get a little more focused then this is you are gonna be writing papers...
Blizzard realise that in BC and they reduced the grindding a lot, theres a lot of it i know but you can go from 60 to 70 with tons of quest, compared to original WoW 50 to 60. Those are small changes that means a lot.
What has this got to do with anything?
About popular culture I do agree that most of the mainstrem is lacking of intellectual deep, nevertheless most of those plastic artist have a very professional team behind.
Ahh! we have an agreement?? I must admit, you got me, I never saw that one coming....
In a technicall point of view they have outstanding production you cant denny that. Even the britney spirs dancers and coreographers.. you can hate them, dislike them... but you cant say they dont know what they are doing.
Sure, they know what they are doing, in the same way that Turbine knows what it is doing...
Offering mass marketed lowest common denominator tripe to those too lazy to find or invest in the real thing.
I strongly disagree with you:
Well, of course you are allowed to.
First: You call LOTRO a sad statement of "modern gamming", and also in previus post your judgment tell us that Vanguard is a better game. im letting out the whole beta retail issue which btw i think is a ethic issue more than anything, i want to see Toyota selling Camrys without brakes... o wait we are working on it, wait for the 10th patch.
Yep, I stand by that statement. LotR is a superficial, frothy, bubblegum game that definitly points in a very real direction that MMORPGs will now head.
But... about Vangaurd... I actually said 'at it's heart'... Quote me correctly before you launch into your worn out VG 'jokes'? It helps me take your posting seriously...
I am more then aware of VG's issues, and I don't defend them or the state in which it was bought to market.
Im not a certified "expert" about gamming and digital arts but. Im working towards it (reading and researching), the gap quality betewn vanguard and LOTRO is just Huge, starting by Vanguard`s unidbody desgin.
ok... I think, especially for a professed student, it is probably a good idea to understand the original source that you are railing against before you jump to half arsed responses, based on what you *wanted* me to say rather then what I *did* say. Go on... take some time to reread what I have written with a clear head. It's ok... I will be here waiting for you when you are ready.
Vanguard chars design is nothing but the same body diferent scales and same animations!!, the Wulan look just lame.. a dude with a Wolf head.. give me a break. not cool... (at least not cool as do it in vanguard). Theres a lot of thecnical, artistic and design issues about this game i wont go on them just because IT would take to long, and i think they are pretty much obvius for people with common sense.
Ahh.. ok... still banging on that drum? To risk repeating myself... You are getting your knickers in a twist over the fact that someone dared suggest that at it's heart VG was a better game then LotRO, as it blatantly is. I openly admit it has many flaws and issues that make it a pretty poor offering. I have no problems saying that. I'm not a VG fanboi or anything.
A side note about Vanguard: Brad Mcquaid spend the last 5 years doing a game that was released 10 years ago, that "vision" - "core gammer" meaningfull travell bullshit... its just another way of saying i dont have a freaking idea of how the industry is evolving, what its the real purpose of my game other than beeing killing the same freaking mob over and over again. And what about the Vanguard "lore" if you can call it like that.. a high scholl studen in a writting workshop comes out with better ideas.
Erm... why are you turning this into a full fledged rant about VG..? Boy, you really hate that game eh? I only made a side comment that mentioned the game, it is hardly at the heart of my opinion about LotR. Even without VG ever being being created, I would still consider LotRO to be a superficial, brain dead, mmorpg lite game for the hyped up stupified special eds out there.
You don't have to be mad at VG for the fact that I consider LotRO to be yet another nail in the coffin of challenging, creative, inspired gaming, all soon to be dead in favour of MMORPGs that trade on popular IPs, huge advertising budgets, and basic dumbed down simplisitic game play that my 8 year old niece can handle. All optimised to efficiently sell a lot of units.
Let me put an example, what is a Core Gammer?... not one single Brad Mcquaid post have define that, i mean how do you produce a 10million dollars game with out knowing who is aimed for? .Most pople guess: it is for the "Hard core" player the one with the inhuman hability to stay 10 hrs in a row in an alienation state (grindding). neverthless mcquaid has concur in a major flip flop trying to define what he should define 5 years ago.
/sigh... Are you gonna just blather and froth about VG all night, or are you actually gonna get to a point? No offense and all that, but this is really getting a bit boring...
In the other hand LOTRO and WOW are very clear what they want, who they want and were they are going with the game. Example: regular barrens chat : " OMFG lotro dont have a wizzard class wtf freaking turbine noobs.. " Noobs? not really they know where to aim for, they have a presice market.
Great community you have going there!
Your arrogance in every single post is lacking of the essential a point to ilustrate us.. How and Why is LOTRO so lame.. according to you. That give me the impression that you are just a Generic POSER.
hehe why the capitols on POSER? Very silly. And arrogant? I didnt think you would sink to personal insults so quickly based on the start of your post, with you being an educated man and all.
I have posted numerous times on why I think this game is so lame. I feel I have been very very clear and very very concise. Look around this forum if you care so much.
Please let me know how vanguard offers a superior intellectual "challenge" over LOTRO or WOW? I think that WOW was a huge stepp in the right direction after everquest, and now i think that LOTRO is another stepp in the same way... people who call lotro a WOW clone are making a simplistic analisys.
Analysis.
hehe please get off the VG thing, I don't honestly care if that game lives or dies, I just believe that at it's heart it's a better game with more 'soul', integrity, and inspiration then LotRO. TBH, I don't really care if you see it the same way or not... It's not like either of us actually plays it...
But... wow... I really hit a button with you by daring to mention VG eh?
I dont hear people saying F.E.A.R copy Half LIfe and Half life first copy Doom right? its because there are some game mechanics that just works, and is the best to respect that, inovation can come in a more sutile way, like the mere fact that you level up by questing, LOTRO grinding is useless.
Erm... if you say so... *looks around confused*... Is this part of some bigger point, or just a random stream of your favourite rants? Really... you are gonna have to get a little more focused then this is you are gonna be writing papers...
Blizzard realise that in BC and they reduced the grindding a lot, theres a lot of it i know but you can go from 60 to 70 with tons of quest, compared to original WoW 50 to 60. Those are small changes that means a lot.
What has this got to do with anything?
About popular culture I do agree that most of the mainstrem is lacking of intellectual deep, nevertheless most of those plastic artist have a very professional team behind.
Ahh! we have an agreement?? I must admit, you got me, I never saw that one coming....
In a technicall point of view they have outstanding production you cant denny that. Even the britney spirs dancers and coreographers.. you can hate them, dislike them... but you cant say they dont know what they are doing.
Sure, they know what they are doing, in the same way that Turbine knows what it is doing...
Offering mass marketed lowest common denominator tripe to those too lazy to find or invest in the real thing.
FIRtS i didnt insult you, poser is not an insult its just a way of beeing.
I have read your opinions about why LOTRO sucks so much, nevertheless no one solid argument other than "personal preferences" masked as arguments.
About the whole Vanguard thing its just that represents a way of making games that its based in a superficial "deep gamming experience" than turns to be in an anielation sinking time game. Something that i understand you are against off. And it would be nice to hear some argumentation about why is vanguard best at "hearth" especially wich such a lame lore.
The off topics arguments you dismiss are examples of sutile and smart game design, that in some way or another can be related to LOTRO, and why its has been succesfull.
At the end this is gamming i have beeing arround it for a long, lets face it: gamming its far for beeing "intellectual or conceptual challenging", Im a cinema fan, and i question you what would be the Stanley Kubrick of gamming? in a sense of having a cultural message or specific artistic expresion... there is none. What would be that you call the real thing? if you want intellectual challenge play chess. the problem here is what is that mmorpg that its a real challenge, but no because of the amount of mindless hours you need to fully achieve a fully game experience? im just intuiting what you find "challenging" as you havent take the time for fully descrive whats challenging for you.
Again and again i find adjectives: lowest, lazy, non challenging, boring etc... but not even one single non pedant argument to sustent your judgment. I find your writting a constant disqualification of what you dont like, understand or apeal to your miraclous good taste. Thats not argumentation thats obstination. A passive agressive way to call idiots everyone else that dont concur with you.
notes. I never said i was about to be a gamming journalist, Im working on a digital arts master which means Im working towards beeing in a game studio.
I fail to understand why people lurk in a forum of a game they don't like just to point to people and say "Why do you like this game? It sucks. You're wrong to like this game." I mean, sure, play it. Form an opinion. Don't like it? Post that you don't like it and why. Then move on. Why stick around to tell people that their opinion is wrong, and that yours is the only correct one? Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but some of this behavior is borderline stalking in a way. It's like someone going to McDonald's for the first time, having a hamburger, not liking it, and then standing outside the restaurant for a month telling everyone else that they are wrong for liking a Big Mac.
As far as why this game is number one now, it struck a chord with enough gamers that like it. For now. The gaming industry is fickle. Turbine has a lot of work ahead of them to retain those that have made it #1. It can easily retain its position for the foreseeable future, or could be replaced in a month or two by the 'next big thing.' If Turbine plays their cards right, it will be a continuing success, as it has a lot more positives at launch than negatives in the majority of opinions on the game. If they really go for broke, they'll even address some of the shortcomings that have been posted about by those that don't currently like the game, and give those people a reason to revisit the game in the future.
But none of that has happened yet, of course, so we'll have to see which direction the game takes. For now, it is number one because, for now, enough people like it to put it there.
LotRO being in the number one spot is really self explanatory. Doesn't take a rocket scientist, brain surgeon or a sheep herder to figure that one out. A lot of people are really enjoying the game.
Time, like you said, will be the true test. At this point I have a lot of faith in Turbine, and am looking forward to the future of LotRO. As I've said before, I think this game will get nothing but better.
http://www.straightdope.com/