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Story driven MMO - An Achilles heel?
killerwig
Member UncommonPosts: 236
A lot of us are familiar with the sandbox game: no real in game story to follow; you're free to make up your own story based on your own decisions and progress through the game freely, doing whatever you like. I really enjoy those types of games, and for me, old UO still wears the crown for the freedom experience - though I didn't play SWG during its heyday, much to my regret and relief.
LOTRO took a different approach and included an element essential to single player RPGs - a storyline. I absolutely love story-driven games: Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Knights of the Old Republic, Fallout, Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment, Deus Ex, and even going right back to Curse of the Azure Bonds, Gateway to the Savage Frontier and Eye of the Beholder 1 and 2. I completed all of these brilliant, brilliant games, but only a couple had an aspect that is very, very important for MMOs - replayability. And to go even further, MMOs have to approach endless replayability to help keep players interested and playing.
My case in point: try reading the Lord of the Rings novels five times, back-to-back. I have to admit that even I would find this tiresome, and I bloody love these great books. I know this is a bit of a metaphorical stretch concerning LOTRO's story-driven formula, but I similarily equate this shared aspect, nonetheless. It's the replayability of LOTRO that I worry about and not the easily fixable teething problems, server issues, performance issues and the needed fixes and fleshing out of items, crafting and the auction house.
No matter what race/class combination you choose to play, they all still share the same thread of the story with only minor deviations to it. Of course, there's plenty of other things to do, but to truely progress is to follow the main story of the game. Single player RPGs extended replayability by offering a multi-threaded storyline based on choice, and KOTOR in particular did an excellent job of this - but I still only played that epic story twice. Other single player games like Fallout, Morrowind and Oblivion offered the kind of sandbox theme offered by traditional MMOs, giving us some freedom to explore the game the way we wanted, but even so, I only played these excellent games a couple of times each before I moved on.
By including a single player RPG element, LOTRO may have also inherited the single player RPG problem. It's a prolem that I am not used to seeing in an MMO. Because of the scale of this project (it's likely to be 5+ years before we get to Mordor), it might well slow the pace of progression through this game to a crawl as we wait for the next thread of the story; filing our time with raiding, exploring and completing - and there's a finite amount of content to get through.
This is why I am taking the game really slowly right now. I'm pacing myself and playing the game very casually indeed. Those players who blasted their way to level 50 in a couple of weeks are already getting bored, and probably finding that the replayability is much like a single player RPG in some respects. It's not really an Achiever's game from what I see, and caters more to Explorers and Socialisers. That's pretty unusual for an MMO I think. Apparently I'm a KESA (Killer-Explorer-Socialiser-Achiever), so achievement isn't really high on my list, so I can live with this strange aspect I see with LOTRO. I'm enjoying just taking it easy with an MMO for a change, and filling my life with other things. But then again, I bought the lifetime sub, so I am in the perfect situation to do so.
So what do you think about LOTROs replayability and story driven element?
Comments
So if you are not in love with LOTR Lore, and/or do not read quest this game is going to get old rather quick to you. The game is beauitfully done, has a stability that McQuaid would have killed for to have had in Vanguard, and is very polished. But it is a game that after the inital "Oh Wow" will become somewhat stale if you are not a Lore-Nut.
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Also no one is forcing anyone to follow the story. You are perfectly free to never do a single quest or kill a single mob once you leave the tutorial instance. You could do nothing more than travel from town to town playing music if you desire and spend years as a level 5. Quite frankly I think the "sandbox" design is just more of a crutch for developers who are too lazy or too incompetent to put in content.
I miss DAoC
Its an interesting problem they have stumbled across. One thing I have noticed is that rather then "branching" or diverging quest that would give the game more replaybility / posibilities, quest tend to converge making roughly the same linear quest track each time you play through.
Again, like many PvE or content based games, players not having any "choice" that impacts the game is going to hurt its replayabilty in the long run and will turn it into something like the old AC where everyone is hanging around waiting for the newest content patch. One of the key aspects of single player RPG's that ALL mmo's are missing is something as basic as choice while reading through the story dialogs. At no point do you ever actually have to worry about any sort of choice or consequences aside from whether or not you will accept the "quest" or not.
I miss DAoC
Well Jack, I'm not critizing LotR directly, its a noticable issue in most MMO's. Look at SWG with the new legecy quest (well, not so new, its 2 years old at this point) Same thing, you follow a linear quest track. Pick any content driven game.
This game does an excellent job so far at both quality and quantity, all I was pointing out was it can feel linear and replayability might be an issue because you will simply do the same quest line again and again. Personally I don't think its going to have a very serious impact on the game as a whole. Just an interesting observation is all (at least on my part, others may want to see at as a weakness or fault) I just thought diverging quest would have fit a little better rather then converging.
Well Jack, I'm not critizing LotR directly, its a noticable issue in most MMO's. Look at SWG with the new legecy quest (well, not so new, its 2 years old at this point) Same thing, you follow a linear quest track. Pick any content driven game.
This game does an excellent job so far at both quality and quantity, all I was pointing out was it can feel linear and replayability might be an issue because you will simply do the same quest line again and again. Personally I don't think its going to have a very serious impact on the game as a whole. Just an interesting observation is all (at least on my part, others may want to see at as a weakness or fault) I just thought diverging quest would have fit a little better rather then converging.
What you can't seem to grasp is that the main story line quest is optional, and not the whole game. There is nothing in in that is mandatory for you to do. There is no equipment in it that you have to have. It is optional, play the game any way you like. You seem to think that the main story arc is all there is to the game and if that were true you would be right. Fact of the matter though is that it is only the icing on the cake and a small part of the overall product. Hel if you wanted to you could level a good guy to ten, make a Monster character and just do MvP nothing would be stopping you.
I have been playing the game since October and went through 3 or 4 player wipes in closed beta. Probably had at least 25 characters and I have never gotten bored in 8 months of play. Only other 2 games I can say that about is DAoC and UO. By this time in SWG, EQII, HZ, COH, WoW and a few others I had either gave up on the game entirely or had to take a break. So you will have to understand if I disagree with you on replayability. This game has more options as far as how to play it than any other game I have ever experienced since UO.
I miss DAoC
Jack is right, you don't have to do anything in the game if you don't want to. While you may not have to do the main arc, the fact tha there are only 2 starting places leads to you pretty much doing the same quest over and over regardless of the main story arc, is what I gather some people are saying. And the whole music thing..I really couldn't justify paying money monthly to log on a hour or so a night and play a lute. Maybe others can, but I really couldn't do that. I think both cases are right, for alot of people this game's replayability is not going to be good due to the story driven aspect, while others won't mind this and focus on the new class and crafting set they chose rather than looking at it like they're doing the same quests they just did. In the end in all comes down to personal taste, so really no one is right or wrong in this case. Just my two cents.
Edit: Early morning grammar bites.
What you can't seem to grasp is that the main story line quest is optional, and not the whole game. There is nothing in in that is mandatory for you to do. There is no equipment in it that you have to have. It is optional, play the game any way you like. You seem to think that the main story arc is all there is to the game and if that were true you would be right. Fact of the matter though is that it is only the icing on the cake and a small part of the overall product. Hel if you wanted to you could level a good guy to ten, make a Monster character and just do MvP nothing would be stopping you.
I have been playing the game since October and went through 3 or 4 player wipes in closed beta. Probably had at least 25 characters and I have never gotten bored in 8 months of play. Only other 2 games I can say that about is DAoC and UO. By this time in SWG, EQII, HZ, COH, WoW and a few others I had either gave up on the game entirely or had to take a break. So you will have to understand if I disagree with you on replayability. This game has more options as far as how to play it than any other game I have ever experienced since UO.
No problem, yes I do "grasp" that you don't have to do anything in any MMO.
Like I said, its just an observation and I did say I didn't think it would have a serious impact on the game as a whole. All I am saying is branching quest might have been better then converging quest lines. I don't think you are understanding that I am just making an observation strickly about the quest and not the entire game or the content of the quest. Like I said, its an excellent game, the storyline quest are very good and a lot of fun.
As you said - story driven ala singleplayer RPG is LOTRO's biggest achevement and its biggest downfall.
I too saw posts about people reaching lvl 50 , very proud. And i felt sorry for them. They can just close the game now and wait for expansion....nothing else to do.
In fact LOTRO is all about the road
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
Lets hope they do not disappoint
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
The bigger concern is the overall endgame. Every game needs a decent endgame, or players are going to leave. WOW uses large scale raid instances/elite gear to keep players going, Eve is all about controlling a section of space and killing anyone who dares enter it, Lineage 2 involves regular battles for a series of Keeps which clans try to defend.
It appears to me that LoTRO will probably follow the WOW model, I expect large raids to become the norm once characters reach 50. Sure, they'll add new worlds to explore, which is what will probably keep me going as I'm not much for raiding anymore.
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This is the way i see it. No there is not a lot of choices in the path you take to lvl other than the players start in differant areas. Heck i yet to do any shire quests yet in the 8 months i been testing and playing this game. Anyway my point. By the time the finish adding all of eraidor and all of the quests that come with the new areas the lvling road will expand. There will be no way in the world you will be able to do all of the quests in all of the areas by the time they get it all in game. Heck i will go back and create a new character just for the evendim addition cause i will have outlvled the quests they are adding. This will make it so i won't do alot of the quests that i did this time around.
I believe that the replayability of this game will grow with the game. If you rush thru the game right now at it's current state you are cheating yourself. There is so much more to do than just quest or kill mobs. Heck i love running the retake weathertop quest. Have done it several times over now in live. I help people who are doing it the first time. I will run other quests over and over to help people and to help my kinship. I guess i don't look at it as i did it once that is all i need to do. Of course i get alot of enjoyment out of helping others in game alot more than i get from getting to max lvl.
I actually think LOTRO has more replayability than people give it credit for.
Reason I say this is that in Beta, I got a character up to lvl 26. I did a good amount of quests in the North Downs.
So, here comes the live game (well, open beta and then live) and I end up joining some clan members in the Lone lands. Well, I've done most of my quests up there and am lvl 24. I've really yet to do much on the North Downs.
The game is just so different to me as I was prepared to do all my play like Closed Beta. Everytime I think I am done with the Lone Lands I see another whole slew of quests (all of which I've never done before).
Also, I've never done any of the hobbit quests (they are a bit too "homey" for me) but I found that I did more dwarven quests (as an elf) this time around.
My thought is that this game (like all other games) will really appeal to a "certain type" of player. I really have no problem being part of the world and experiencing the world through my eyes without ever really "affecting" the world. That is not how I approach it. I approach it as more of an interactive book. That works very well for me and I'm having a blast. This is coming from (and still playing) Lineage 2 which has horrible quests and is basically a grind between pvp.
Granted, a game like Lineage 2 gives players freedom to control and shape the world but I would propose that there are just as many players who really don't care about that. And then, others who thrive on it.
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The epic story quests do rapidly converge on a single chain. However in any given zone you can't really do all the other quests unless you are going to keep working on green and gray quests. And the story to the regular quests is better here than it is in most games. I was really interested in the politics and history of the shire, so i quite literally did every single quest i could find there and had leveled past a lot of the early Bree quests by the time I left. My next halfing (if there is one) will likely leave the shire at around ten and have a very differnet experience.
I also tend to level pretty slowly. By the time my main hits our current "soft cap" of 30 or so when the solo quests start to peter off, it will have been so long since I did the quests I was working on two weeks ago that just taking a different class through the same quests would be enough to make them seem fresh. Even assuming I'm doing the same quests. Hell, when all my toons were levelling at the same pace, I would take every one of my characters through the same quest chains on purpose just to see how each one would cope with the various encounters (I often do crap like this when I'm starting a game to help decide on a class or even sometimes a build for my first main).
In addition, there are other diversions even on a given charactert once you hit the cap. It will take me a long time to to get all my traits maxed. For example, my main has exactly one exploration trait bonus out of the 5 or 6 she could have right now. I have barely toched monster play, but the hour or so I spent on it was really cool. I've also barely touched crafting.
I guess what it really comes down to is I think that LotRO is going to have a much longer run for me than a typical MMO. I have tried tons of them because I generally only play any given one for a month or two. I've been playing LotRO for just over a month now and I'm still foaming to log every night. So far the best runs I've had were on DAoC and WoW (ironically, given that they are nearly polar opposites in terms of depth). It really looks like I'm going to get a similar run out of LotRO. Will i be playing in two or three years? No of course not, anything gets old eventually.
Case in point: I read about folks that have been playing EQ since launch, and I can't decide whether I envy them or think they must have brain damage. I can't imagine any game holding my interest that long.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
There are many more level 6-26 quests than are needed to hit level 26. As someone with a few alts, I can tell you the path to 26 can be as similar or different as you wish it to be and swift travel between the capitals is cheap and available with out unlocking those stables.
The variety of soloable quests becomes more limited as you continue to advance. Level 30 to 40 espescially would be a level range where currently you may have little variation in leveling paths between characters.
However, Turbine is promising monthly content updates. The first update, in June, is offering a ton of new content and an entire new zone for the level 30+ range. For those who will have already blown through that level range, that's an entirely new path for a future character to level in. For those who haven't passed those levels yet, you will have a lot of choice in mixing and matching quests between zones and can chart vwery unique paths for alternate characters.
This will be after just the first monthly update!
We don't have any details on exactly what to expect in future monthly expansions. My educated guess would be that at least half of them will include complete, new zones, with the rest maybe including large instances? It's even possible that most of the monthly updates will include new zones. In any event, with another six to twelve new zones over the next year, the options for variation and replay expand exponentially.
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Great post.
Really accurate, my biggest concern with LOTRO is how fast can new content come out ? Its very very fast leveling. I have not played in about a week and i am sitting at level 39 ( thought it was just going way too fast.
However, in June their release will expand the story 1-2 more chapters, and the word out there is we shoud exepct this kind of update ( story and content expansion ) every 1-2 months.
If that is so, i am very excited. However, if people chew up 50 levels of content in 4 weeks, how long is it going to take to chew up a few instances, a raid and 60 quests ?
I think it is the right approach ( the story driven method ) however i just dont know if lotro is big or deep enough to get it done long term.
-Allegria
Agree with the OP.
I always thought the story-driven design of the game was a mistake. And I've read the books, back to back, dozens of times. I love the story, but a book is a book and an mmo should be an mmo.
I saw the 8.5 rating here and thought maybe I was wrong. But I've bought it, played and not enjoyed it. It has problems beyond being so story-driven. I'd consider overlooking some of those but there's something about knowing the game has a built-in limited lifespan that makes me disinclined to invest any of my time in it.
Great post.
Really accurate, my biggest concern with LOTRO is how fast can new content come out ? Its very very fast leveling. I have not played in about a week and i am sitting at level 39 ( thought it was just going way too fast.
However, in June their release will expand the story 1-2 more chapters, and the word out there is we shoud exepct this kind of update ( story and content expansion ) every 1-2 months.
If that is so, i am very excited. However, if people chew up 50 levels of content in 4 weeks, how long is it going to take to chew up a few instances, a raid and 60 quests ?
I think it is the right approach ( the story driven method ) however i just dont know if lotro is big or deep enough to get it done long term.
-Allegria
That'll be the challenge for Turbine. So far they've promised monthly patches with content. I guess it's a matter of allowing slower lvl'ers to catch up with everyone else.
Personally everyone I know who loves WoW hates the game, and those who love LotRO hate WoW. I do not think LotRO will reach WoW numbers, but it does not need to, it will be successful and can not wait for future content.
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Quit - LotRO, EQ, EQOA, EvE, FFXI, DAoC, TitD, AO, AC1, AC2, AA, CoH, CoV, D&L, DS, DDO, EA, GW, HZ, IW, L1, L2, M59, UO, MoM, MoUL, N2, RS, RO, RoE, RYL, SB, SO, SWG, MxO, UO, VSoH, WoW
Thank you to everyone for going some way to allay my fears. What I saw inititally as a problem with LOTRO doesn't seem so much of a problem now that I consider the alternatives to replaying the main story. It sort of slightly puts the game in a new light too, when many of you mentioned how Turbine operates and supports its games. I have no prior experience with Turbine, so that's why I couldn't comment in my original post about how fast they could get updates out. They sound very different to SOE, who seem to want to line their pockets with gold with every expansion they do - and that can get expensive for players.
Even though my fears are somewhat subdued now, I can still see how other players more interested in achievement could find the replayability of LOTRO lacking, or even boring as it is right now. But I can now see that LOTRO will mature very well indeed, seeing how many of your replies express faith in Turbine to rapidly expand the game, the story and indeed its replayability. I never fully counted on that, after experiencing how other MMO developers operate.
I think it was brave of Turbine to give us something reasonably new with the storyline aspect of LOTRO. I don't think it was a mistake as such, because LOTRO is indeed better in many and wonderful ways for it being there. I still think there are potential problems with that system, as I tried to explain in my original post - but that's only as the game stands right now - and that much I can see now after a little contemplation. In many ways I am glad for the lifetime sub opportunity, because I'll definitely be around until they close the servers - come what may.
Thanks for the great replies and points of view.
I miss DAoC